What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
>>316572772
gotta click things
no controller support
Thinking ahead is for fags
>>316572772
too focused on multiplayer
>>316572772
You need to do too many things at the same time, so it becomes stressful fast, unless you're some super autistic nerd.
>>316572772
>aligment
that shit always triggers my inner autism
One single way to win, rush to do the single winning thing.
>>316572861
>>316572901
This is why MOBAs exist now, and even then retards still think it is to much.
>>316572965
This, rushing is the best strat in most all RTS games. The winner is basically who spammed an army first rather then a long, drawn out fight.
>>316573005
MOBAs aren't even remotely comparable to RTS games. You must be fucking garbage at both.
>>316572965
Rushing only wins if the other side is completely oblivious to it.
>>316572772
>What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
up to a very high level APM are more important than strategic brilliance
They're boring.
>>316573045
Then you both rush and no one has fun.
The skill is based on autistic levels of hand-to-keyboard APM rather than the intelligence of the player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHcl6Cs1FAM
>>316572772
Creating them with PvP, balance and tournaments in mind instead of having fucking fun while playing them. Starcraft 2 is boring as fuck so are more and more newer RTS games.
>>316573045
>Rushing only wins if the other side is completely oblivious to it.
this is the only thing RTS actually do well
Scouting is vitally important. If you have more information than your enemy chances are high your are going to win.
>>316573005
>>316573024
Screw RTS and Mobas, give me turn based strategy games.
>>316573116
How many games have you actually watched/played?
In multiplayer, there's not much strategy. The person or group that wins is the one that gets the resources to build their army the quickest.
Not sure how much it applies to other RTS game since I didn't really play online with them, but SC2's build orders were the worst thing ever. I fucking hate how rigid the first 10 minutes of the game was.
>>316572772
Depends.
In my case certain mechanics get too repetitive (like worker units taking up a large part of your population limit and are needed to extract resources instead of simply building an automated mine).
At least games like Warlords: Battlecry (send them to the mine and they'll free space for the pop-limit) or Dawn of War (strategic points) do it better. Not to mention Total Annihilation or SupCom. Thus this allows you to focus on the good part that is advancing and conquering.
>>316572971
And they never had the Stukov missions for the PC. Had to bloody download a re-made version of them...
>>316572772
AI is often too dumb to be a challange.
PvP often comes down to only having 3 strategies per race and the one who can click faster wins. Starcraft 2 is the best example for that.
>>316572965
This is false
Part of competitive RTS is to scout your enemy, if you don't see a rush coming, it's your fault for not preparing for it
Defending off a rush generally means you're going to be ahead economically
>>316573095
You can perform well in the top200 of sc2 with 100apm.
That is not particularly fast. People can type at 100WPM
>>316572772
They're boring as fuck
>>316572772
Not being MOBAs.
>>316573184
This does it for me, too. It feels too much like rock paper scissors.
>start build order
>send some shit to scout while doing that
>scout them doing a build order that counters yours
>lose
>>316573005
mfw have some friend who plays lel and thinks it's complicated
Reminder that AI is moddable in Age of Empires II. And it will kick your ass and make a good opponent. I suggest downloading 7 unique ones and having a big free for all.
>>316572861
Fucking kill yourself
>>316573024
MOBAs are successful because they took the "strategy" aspect that RTS were always supposed to be about, and actually implemented it in a way that doesn't require the player to multitask 500 things at once.
The greatest flaw of the RTS genre is a focus on micro over macro. Whenever most players play something like Starcraft, they feel like they're playing like shit. They realize all the things they're forgetting and all the mistakes they've made because the game throws them in your face. Other games with extremely high skill floors have this problem as well (like Rocket League). Players don't like feeling like they suck, even if they do.
MOBAs might be far simpler than most RTS games, but they're also far easier to play.
>>316572965
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I56BVEFaPOM
>>316572772
Shhh-ah!
>>316573180
>The person or group that wins is the one that gets the resources to build their army the quickest.
Isn't the strategy denying their attempts at more resources, while getting youro wn and scouting their tech and countering whatever units they're building?
How do you have fun with RTS games anyway?
It all seems like the same chore and everyone is trying to do the same chore but faster than anyone else.
>>316573193
>Not to mention Total Annihilation or SupCom
they were buildings and buildings counted towards your unit cap too
>>316573364
HAAAH
WAAAW
>MOBAS
>STRATEGY
HAAAAAAHHHHHH
I have 1200 hours in Dota 2 and I can safely state that it's fuckall about strategy.
There is no strategy
>>316573364
"strategy aspect"
What are you even talking about? The strategies used in your typical game of Dota can't even be remotely compared to your typical game of starcraft. The only similarities these games share is a fucking camera viewpoint. They are entirely different genres.
>>316572901
>the game pushes me to my limits
>i can't handle it
>waaah waaah
>abloobloobloo
just stick to campaigns then you crybaby
>>316573364
>mobas
>strategy
do i press R to instakill someone now or later?
>>316572772
>What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
They're bad at communicating the objective of the game to the players.
They lack developer support (i.e. someone to try and fix this) as Blizzard doesn't have a competent dev team anymore and no one else is actually out there.
>>316572772
The "real time" part. Time shouldn't be a constraint in a strategy game.
>>316573459
If you aren't 5k you aren't actually playing dota, so take your worthless opinion and shove it up your ass.
AoE 2 is the perfect strategy game, the only issue it has is that the netplay is laggy when you have many people.
What's the fundamental flaw of FPS games?
The problem is most people are shit at them, get stomped by a veteran in multiplayer, and thus give up after the campaign.
They boring as hell like for real
For me is that there always seems to be an optimal startegy to follow, and if youre good at it you win.
I think a good RTS should be about adapting to situations and not knowing what to expect, just being good at using different tools for different situations.
>>316572772
The only good thing about RTS' is the story. Gameplay by itself is a snoozefest since it's pretty slow.
>>316573364
>MOBAs are successful because they took the "strategy" aspect that RTS were always supposed to be about, and actually implemented it in a way that doesn't require the player to multitask 500 things at once.
RTT like World in Conflict did that arguably a million times better while keeping more in touch with the roots of the genre rather than relying on hamfisted RPG mechanics.
I have never played a RTS game with other players.
>>316573551
They're only as slow as you are.
>>316573420
No! It's only strategy if you're allowed to sit in your base for 30 minutes building the highest tier army and researching upgrades before moving out.
>>316573180
there is strategy, it's called real time strategy because you be strategic on the go
if you see someone getting a lot of resources then you kill their workers or the important buildings so they can't tech
i bet you don't even scout
>>316573578
epic
Tell me your username so I could send you gold for that sick burn.
>>316573552
>hamfisted RPG mechanics
Blame WC3 for that.
>>316573474
>>316573464
>>316573459
Strategy is not a relative term. Since there is a lower barrier for entry for MOBAs compared to RTS games, the player can focus on the macro aspects rather than figuring out how to play their character. Objectives, vision, itemization etc... This is the gameplay that most people want to get out of RTS games without having to go through all the bullshit to get there.
MOBAs being simple from a strategic standpoint has absolutely nothing to do with my original point.
>ABLOO ABLOO 30+ MIN NO RUSH ABLOO NOOBS ONLY ABLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>>316573358
These graphics are SHIT
>>316573523
The "first person" part removing the "shooting" part by making me (a non-tryhard) who just wants to have some fun and shoot pellets at others being killed by nigger retard try-hards that only care about winning (unlike me). LET ME WIN FOR ONCE!!!!111
What happened to the days of playing RTS with a friend against multiple NPC enemies on the highest difficulty and playing one game for hours?
It's just complete it as fast as possible these days.
I think the best RTS I've played was American Conquest or Cossacks because of how big it was.
>>316573474
>>316573459
>>316573464
Shit son watch out we've got the RTS purists in here. And I thought the days were long gone
>>316573516
rmm is just a measurement on how well you can handle 4 other randoms on your team
while it's not a completely irrelevant value, it shouldn't be seen as a true measurement of skill
>>316573364
they feel like they're playing like shit because they don't understand the game properly
>>316573516
5.2k thanks to following CLQ religiously.Party queue, but hey, why would you play Dota 2 with randoms anyway?
The concept of CPM is what bothers me about strategy. I don't play multiplayer for those types of games because everyone who plays has been playing for years and their CPM is often well over 100.
Is anyone still playing aoe3?
Games like SC2 are too rigid, making for like three different build orders that are just optimal and everyone follows
It's not as bad for games like AoE2 since you have to adapt to the map and the enemy players but still, that would probably be the biggest fundamental problem with the genre
>>316572772
Slow paced RTS is boring and fast paced is too difficult for casuals. Even in the genre's heyday only a small minority actually played the games correctly.
define strategy
>>316573180
>tfw not very good at strategy games
>tfw like to build my base and level up my shit and get ready for a nice foot slog
>tfw playing a six player match online
>tfw everyone too busy fighting each other to even look at me
>tfw playing as imperial guard
Hope you like tanks eldar motherfuckers. ahh that was a good day.
>>316573698
Isn't 2 superior to 3 though?
>the player can focus on the macro aspects rather than figuring out how to play their character
Still, RTS macro aspects =/= ASSFAGGOTS macro aspects. They simplified everything.
>>316572772
Cheating AI.
>>316573624
Yeah your post makes it pretty obvious you played Dota for a few weeks at most.
>>316573698
More people playing AoE 2 than 3, bruv.
>>316572772
RTT is more fun for a stupid shitter like me.
>>316573631
it's a meta screenshot out of several
pretty sure that it was just cropped badly at that particular location
>>316573716
letting me sit in my base for ten minutes and build a pretty castle
>>316573682
Anons point was that real coordination doesn't happen below a mmr barrier, so people flailing around in 3k aren't really playing the game and can't comment about its strategies
>>316573735
Yes, but I still prefer 3 over 2
>>316573678
don't worry, you'll always have hordes of plebs like you to shield you from evil try-hards.
>>316573624
>itemization is the gameplay that most people want to get out of RTS games
what the fuck am I reading?
>>316573738
meant for >>316573624
>>316572772
GOD I FUCKING HATES THOSE GRANARIES
WHY ISN'T THEIR SIZE THE SAME AS A FIELD
THAT LOOKS LIKE SHIT
GODDAMNIT
Whenever I play RTS I like to build up my base and units before even thinking about attacking. This means I'll do upgrades and more buildings before troops so if you're a rusher you'll always beat me..
>>316573696
CPM?
>>316573768
>10 min castle
shit son you'd be best in the world
They're shit?
Anyone here still play Generals Zero Hour occasionally? Playing all stealth general FFA with friends was one of the most fun experiences I've had in RTS.
>>316573696
>100
>a high number
>CPM instead of APM
tattoo "i dont know what i'm talking about" on your forehead
>>316573520
How do I fix that shit
I just want to have 500 pop battles with my friends without the game running at 1 fps or flat out crashing
>>316572821
>>316572861
Wrong.
>>316572896
Partially true.
>>316572901
>>316572965
Wrong.
>>316572965
Depends on how expansion works.
WC3 is still ork centric to this day, because Blademaster can do a early rush to strain the enemy economy.
Star Craft is rush centric because the stronger units are not that much stronger.
Age of Empires is rush heavy if resource gathering has to be spread out on that map
It doesn't have to be that way either.
>>316572772
not enough hotkeys
>>316572772
micromanagement
>>316573624
I've had the same problems trying to break into the RTS genre for the same reasons you're describing. The repetition of micromanagement isn't nearly what I would expect from a game that requires strategy to defeat an opponent. Dota allows me to break away from things like unit build orders which is relaxing.
>>316573658
No idea. SC2 has BGH maps too but it just doesn't feel the same because the battles end so fast even at 300 supply. In BW you'd have epic big battles that could last up to multiple minutes.
>>316573658
American Conquest and Cossacks are awesome. I'm looking forward to the new Cossacks, it looks like they've taken the refined shooting mechanics from Conquest and updated the engine to full 3d but other than that it's all the same Cossacks. Hopefully it won't be shit but I still have a bad feeling.
>like RTSs
>suck at them
>tfw
I just want an RTS where I can stop time to give commands in the middle of battle, like party based RPG games but on a bigger scale. I know that RTS stands for "Real Time" but still...
The AI in RTS games is either a cheating fuck or a drooling retard. Playing on normal, the AI sends 5 units to attack your impregnable fortress of doom. Playing on hard, the AI bum rushes you with units because they have unlimited money.
>>316573828
Cocks per minute.
>>316573624
>Objectives, vision, itemization
Uh what? Most people like base building and army management and freedom of development. Fucking everyone and their grandmom's dog that played RTS games probably had at least a few games where they built fuckhuge fortifications and duked it out for hours, building organized farms and making city structures against the meta. A significant portion of people play exclusively like this, especially in games like OP's pic.
>>316573827
>Whenever I play RTS I like to build up my base and units before even thinking about attacking.
thank you for your contribution you special snowflake never-been-thought-of-before strategic mastermind
>This means I'll do upgrades and more buildings before troops
what about making troopsand sitting them in your base to defend you from evil rushers?
>>316572772
>WAAHHHH I WANT TO BEAT PEOPLE BUT I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO THINGS TO BEAT THEM WAAHHHHHH
>>316573837
I never claimed to, and nitpicking on those facts doesn't affect my argument.
>>316573596
>there is strategy, it's called real time strategy because you be strategic on the go
Not really.
Just like Fighting games aren't the only games about actual conflict, RTS games are simply named as such because "virtual wargames" sounds bad (VW is a car company, wargames are just toys and games had to not be toys abck in the day).
The only remotely strategic games are the grand strategy games and those have an infinite pause to invalidate the real time statement.
>>316573840
Thanks anon everyone likes the guy who goes in to say true or wrong without explaining his thoughts because we're all great at mind reading
>>316573690
Because the games require too much of an investment in order to properly understand. Here's what goes through the head of a typical Starcraft player:
>oh fuck I'm supply capped I forgot to keep building pylons
>shit I forgot to keep making probes
>goddamnit I forgot the forward pylon for reinforcements
>uhh are my warpgates off cooldown...where's that hotkey...
>where's my fucking forge I need upgrades
>oh shit I'm getting harassed at my natural
>fuck my main ran out I need another nexus
>shit my nexus is full on energy I need to keep using chrono
>need canons in my main
etc... it's not fun for players and it takes an unreasonably high amount of practice to get to the point where those things aren't a concern and you get to the actual strategy aspects.
>>316573748
Have anything substantial to say or just shitposting?
>>316573809
You misunderstood. Strategy is the gameplay people want to get out of RTS games. Itemization is part of the strategy in MOBAs.
>>316573738
I never said otherwise. I get it, you want to show everyone how much you hate MOBAs. Can we move past that?
>>316573364
>Rocket League
>high skill floor
>>316573827
you know you can build up your base and attack at the same time, right
AoE/AoM master race, none of that 'APM' shit and whatnot, just quick thinking and observation.
>>316573879
Me and a friend used to play it and because the AI difficulty was crazy we had to put the peace time on like 2 hours in order to prepare. Good times.
>>316573776
m8 I have only the deepest respect for the people that actually put up with the APM shitfest that is Starcraft, I never got beyond plat in 1v1. I just find it hilarous how these guys are trying to deny that MOBA is a direct successor to RTS
>>316573938
Rocket league is quite difficult to play. Even mediocre players completely miss the ball frequently and have difficulties controlling their movement.
>>316573829
Thanks senpai, you're pretty good too
>>316573948
Don't have the micro I guess
>>316573931
Pleased to be of service to uneducated plebs and children.
>>316573938
Maybe he meant skill ceiling
He didn't but it would make sense, RL really does have a high skill ceiling
But you can start playing it within like half a minute so you can't exactly talk about a high skill floor
>>316573934
And MOBA's have hundreds of characters and items that all interact with each other and counter each other with communtiies that often harshly criticize players who don't perfectly build the most perfect thing every time, down to the last ward. MOBA's require a ridiculous amount of time to understand, it's simply a massively wide pond that at first appears only a few inches deep because of the mechanical simplicity.
I want another Rise of Nations game. Or hell even an entire genre, that franchise did RTS perfectly.
>>316573992
What's best for Rocket League? Gamepad or M+KB?
>>316573952
Except both of those still take high APM to macro if you don't want to get wrecked
>IT'S THE GAME'S FAULT, NOT ME
we've had this discussion a million times already
>>316574037
>I don't know what skill floor is!
Yea, you can start playing it in half a minute and not even be able to hit the fucking ball.
>>316573424
Goddammit, don't remind me of this.
At least the limit could be taken to 1000 in SupCom.
>>316573489
That's like saying that open world games are bad at presenting the path that player should take.
in RTS games, you set the objective.
>>316573992
Yeah, racing games ain't that popular so very few players have any skills that carry from other games. This is actually why some of my friends don't want to play the game as it doesn't help them to play other games so the time invested into rocket league is wasted.
>>316573358
I think one of your workers is a weeaboo
>>316574043
Never played that, isn't it where you go from stone age to space age? I wonder if an army of cave men can beat an advanced enemy?
>>316574040
>mechanical simplicity
Yes, we're discussing mechanical simplicity. This isn't a difficult concept, I'm not sure why you're having trouble understanding it. MOBAs make the player feel like they are playing decently, even if they aren't. How simple or complex they are at the top level is completely irrelevant.
>>316572772
It's not really strategy, all you're doing is spamming units taht slowly drain the health of the other guy's units.
Also no matter what you do your base will never be comfy, it'll always be a cluttered mess.
For this reason, TBS is the superior genre.
>>316573364
>MOBAs are successful because they took the
And then you fell of the train.
Moba is good because its PVP multiplayer, in a RPG game. With lots of objectives and lots of action.
So you get to
1. Pick a hero
2. Level up the hero
3. Buy gear for the hero
4. Kill lots of cool stuff
5. Kill other players
6. Rage in All Chat
7. Kill objectives
8. Win games
9. Do teamwork
Not that Dota or LoL matchmaking gives you any of those
RTS games are so god damn intensive when it comes down to it, just you and your opponent trying to out-think and out-skill each other for a pretty large period of time. Many people aren't cut out for such.
ASSFAGGOTS are easy, it's no longer 1v1, it's 5v5 and just that fundamental change alleviates a lot of the pressure, you're no longer gauging the opponent as much as just trying to work together with the team.Casuals
>>316574043
Rise of legends 2 when?
>>316574073
Anon within half a minute I probably made the first goal of my game
Skill floor is how easy it is to get started. Rocket League has simple controls and a simple goal, pushing the ball in the enemy goal. It's skill floor is really low. Its skillc eiling however, describing how good you can get and how much you can improve from your beginner ways, is pretty high
>>316572772
too hard for normies
>>316574068
And we'll have it another million times more because people are stubborn flawless little snowflakes.
>>316573732
Eldar in DoW1 is ridiculous if the player using it has any degree of skill. Which is why I'm giving you kudos for playing as IG masterrace.
>>316573934
>I never said otherwise. I get it, you want to show everyone how much you hate MOBAs. Can we move past that?
Why is /v/ full of filthy casuals?
>>316574040
Cookie cutter builds that and strategies that leave no space for innovation.
>>316574134
It goes from stone to information age.
Endgame upgrades include instant unit creation and some other shit I don't remember. It got crazy.
Most of modern RTS games end up being an action game about who can click the fastest, micro and manuvering. You just follow a flowchart for the strategy part "I'm doing X rush, I'm going Y+Z with upgrade W". Starcraft is the posterboy for the genre and for these problems.
>>316573364
>Whenever most players play something like Starcraft, they feel like they're playing like shit
That's because they ARE playing like shit and it's impossible to make a game that won't make them feel like shit while also having a high enough skill ceiling to be worth playing for any period of time.
>>316573358
that farm placement is so fucking shit holy fuck
>>316574215
>Cookie cutter builds that and strategies that leave no space for innovation.
This is't true for the good contenders of the genre though, being doto2 and HoN
>>316574134
You create a nation, expand your boarders and advance through stages of civilization in real time. Units advanced with the era but the only major difference was stat benefits. You could easily beat a unit of gunpowder infantry with bows but lose more units.
>>316574151
>out-think and out-skill each other
They are both trying to do the exact same thing, just one faster than the other.
>>316574146
Then why mention meta aspects of gameplay? it doesn't take long for players in an RTS game to learn how to group units and place buildings. People can easily play an RTS game without knowing much of what they're doing and still feel like they're accomplishing something, especially against AI. The fact of the matter is that MOBA's have matchmaking systems that keep the shitters paired with shitters while many RTS games often throw extremly skilled players at noobies. It has nothing to do with the mechanical aspects of the game, it's the nature of the communities.
>>316572772
The idea that the general would have total control over each and every unit.
>>316573193
>And they never had the Stukov missions for the PC
>get n64 version
>get to last half of last campaign, saved game corrupted have to start over.
>get to last campaign again,
>brother accidentally deletes all data. get to last level again
>finally beat it
>get to stukov level
>well, this is garbage, i hope they dont expand on this in starcraft 2 it would be retarded if kerrigan got cured after everything.
>mfw playing sc2
>>316572772
build fast
scout
counter
wow so fun
>>316574205
Everything about them is completely broken. There is a list of how all their shit is broken. Luckily two of them were fighting each other, space marines and necrons at the same time. Finding those fucking webways though.
>>316572772
Build orders and all that bollocks.
'strategy' turns into MASH EVERY BUTTON AS FAST AS POSSIBLE AND CLICK EVERYWHERE
Also most RTS games have about 5 units which is shit.
>>316574043
My nigga. This game was the best.
>>316572965
>>316573005
Just because your enemy builds units faster than you and attack sooner doesn't mean it's a "rush".
>>316574303
It's a race to the early stages of arthritis.
>>316574339
>Run fast
>Kick ball hard
Wow football is so fun.
>>316574378
You mean soccer.
>>316574378
Football is fun though tbf
>>316574149
>mobas are successful because
>not that Dota or LoL matchmaking gives you any of those
Did you intend to undermine your own argument immediately after you made it?
>>316574165
>Skill floor is how easy it is to get started
No, skill floor is the minimum amount of effort required to play the game at an effective level. Simply, it's a measure of how long the player feels like they suck at the game.
>>316574275
>That's because they ARE playing like shit
Obviously. This isn't about how good they are, it's about how good they feel like they are.
>>316574312
>it doesn't take long for players in an RTS game to learn how to group units and place buildings.
There's a lot more to micro than simply grouping units and placing buildings. It doesn't help that the game constantly reminds you of your fuckups. Human brains aren't particularly good at multitasking, and games that require a large degree of it often make players feel more stressed and frustrated than anything.
>>316574378
One is a sport.
The other is a dying genre of vidya only koreans can get good at.
Leave it to /v/ to get confused about this.
>>316572965
That's what keeps me away from RTS most of the time - it's much less about strategy than it is about speed and I don't like that at all.
I'd love a really slow-paced and strategic RTS with multiple viable strategies, all of which differ in more than just clicking a different button to get a different unit or building, but it seems like that's generally not a thing.
Oh well, I guess TBS are fine too.
>>316573465
the problem is the whole population of people who were pushed to their limits years ahead of you and overcame them. But I only tried Bnet for SC1, not 2. Maybe the system with leagues help a bit with this
>>316574407
Shouldn't you be asleep yank?
>>316573929
Sounds to me like you're basing your entire idea of strategy on games like chess. Choosing builds (economy vs aggression), working to counter your enemy's chosen tech, etc is strategy and exist in RTS games. A better argument would be whether the word 'strategy' is even a good descriptor of a genre since strategy exists virtually anywhere you have human vs human confrontation.
>>316574456
Fuck responsibility, I've got shitposting to do.
>>316574427
Because solo matchmaking in neither game is truely good.
>>316574407
Anon your shit just doesn't make any sense. You constantly kick a ball with a foot, it's football. You sometimes kick an egg-formed thing and carry it around with your hands most of the time, it's 'something' but doesn't get the terminology spot over the actual 'kick ball with foot' game.
>>316574339
BUT THAT REQUIREZ ZKIILLLL
PLEB PLEB PELB
>>316574438
What you fail to understand is that RTS at its core IS about speed. You need to stop and ask yourself why you'd ever play an RTS over a turn based game. The only difference between the two is the speed at which you play, so it makes sense that RTS would have a heavy focus on speed.
>>316574335
Well Kerrigan's case was radically different from Stukov's.
The cure intended for Stukov wore off and the infestation re-emerged.
>>316574506
That's what I call taste the rainbow.
>>316574438
you might enjoy Warcraft 3 if you haven't played it already
>>316573162
I wonder how fun EU4 would be in competitive multiplayer. Problem, I bet, would be that only one build would be viable and that would kill all the charm in the game. Maybe that's what's wrong with RTS: excessive competition stream-lines away all the charm of playing them
>>316574303
I think you're oversimplifying, sure, they're both trying to 'beat' each other.
I don't really like Starcraft as it feels really samey every match, but AoE 2 has wonderful things in it that make it great.
>Should I build more units now or save gold and try to boom
>What if he's going for a knight rush? Better scout that out
>I need to allocate my defenses and tactics based on the current raw resource placement.
Etc etc.
It's a juggle of mindgames between the players where you have to make assumptions based on observations of the other player and then capitalize on what you think the enemy is going to do.
Starcraft 2 has a lot of unnecessary fluff there to keep it 'micro-intensive', like the fucking zerg queens, protoss buff and that terran call down. Can't really remember the names anymore. Maps are always the same with the only differences being enemy placement which is scouted out early anyway.
>>316574438
>>316574520
Turn based strategy is all about rushing too.
Only difference is you have to rush by making intelligent purchases and gathering the proper resources and technlogies before the other guy.
Casual multiplayer is flawed when one guy googles a building ordernstrategy and sreamrolls everyone else
Pro multiplayer is too complicated and fast paced to be apprwciated by anyone but the pros
>>316574427
>Simply, it's a measure of how long the player feels like they suck at the game.
Yes, and it's minutes for RL because at that point you'll be able to drive around and dribble the ball into the enemy goal. You wo't do any fancy tricks, you won't fly around a lot, but you'll hit the goal. Compare that to something like doto where you don't know what the fuck is going on for the first few hours and you might see the difference. RL is like the definition of a low skill-floor, high skill-ceiling game. Accessible controls, clear-cut goal and way to get there, but lots of room for skill and improvement.
What are the no-rush settings in real life?
>>316574205
>get Dark Crusade
>never played a 40k game before
>pick Necrons
>roflstomp everything with zero effort
>until I meet IG
>kill a hundred guardsmen
>kill a thousand guardsmen
>THEY DON'T STOP COMING
>the top ground layer is literally composed of dead guardsmen and the occasional Necron
>suddenly Baneblade shows up and blasts half my army into oblivion
>teleport the awakened monolith in
>they pulverize it and rape my Necron Lord for the fifth time
>>316573886
supreme commander lets you do exactly this
not online mind you but that shouldn't be a problem as the singleplayer campaign is excellent
>>316574292
>You could easily beat a unit of gunpowder infantry with bows but lose more units
Nope, difference between age of gunpowder and middle age is one of the biggest in the game, primitive gun wileding grunts are simply effective against all infantry types, outside of cavalry charges they're pretty rapey against everything else, although for some odd reason archer boats are better that caravella ships.
>>316574549
>you might enjoy Warcraft 3 if you haven't played it already
>multiple viable strategies
Warcraft 3 has a single viable strategy, that being the Blademaster strat.
And the other issue about the fact every strategy is essentially the same still rings true for him.
>>316572772
The market
the main flaw of RTS is that gamers have become casaul shitters that don't want to improve, they just want to feel overpowered, and that just doesn't work in RTS
>>316574215
>Cookie cutter builds that and strategies that leave no space for innovation.
Every single game that gets competitive will have people figuring the best way to play.
Being innovative is something that is only allowed to the people that actually mastered the standard way to play, and this is true in any game that it's worth a damn.
You're not being innovative for doing weird things and it's not the fault of the game that you're losing to standard builds, you're just doing dumb shit and losing because you're doing suboptimal dumb shit.
If you don't understand and master the rules you can't break them.
>>316574554
Multiplayer and social media focus is the cancer killing videogames. Since the beginning of times, there have been games better suited to play with friends and others better suited to play them on your own.
I've never enjoyed PvP RTSs, nor any Mobas.
>>316574664
>x game lets you..
>just not in multiplayer
so like very other game
>>316574618
>at that point you'll be able to drive around and dribble the ball into the enemy goal
Sure, if you're playing against no one. Otherwise you'll watch the ball soar overhead while you miss it by a hundred feet. Then you'll watch it zip past you because you're going too slow, then you'll fly by it on the go around because you were going too fast.
The experience for a new player in Rocket League is knowing exactly what you want to do in a given situation, but being unable to make your car actually do it. The skill floor is very high, which is why most players fucked around for a few hours and never bothered with it again.
>>316574601
So basically it's the same as RTS. And chess. And REAL LIFE.
Not enough skellingtons.
>>316574632
>having sex: HA I came in 10 seconds gg no re
>bar fight: throw a gorillion punches per minute with no power behind them because SPEEEEED
>work: sprint into building, trip, fall, break your dick, become millionaire
It kind of works I guess.
>>316574632
Getting degree in medicine, most late game strategy that there is.
>>316574634
FOR EVERYONE OF US THAT FALLS, TEN MORE WILL TAKE HIS PLACE!
>>316573716
Risk management for one, knowing when to trade with people etc. knowing when to defend your base and when to let it get wrecked while you use your main army to do more damage to his base. knowing when/how to scout. having sentries, knowing how to move your units.
I have had a few games when a persons macro was better than mine, and their micro was better than mine, but i managed the map in a more clever way so i won anyways.
Do you realize that you're complaining about having to press buttons in order to play a videogame?
No strawmanning, no simplification of arguments, you ARE complaining about having to press buttons.
>>316574342
>There is a list of how all their shit is broken
I am aware. Which is why I hate the fuck out of anyone who uses them in a match and go after them with intense prejudice.
>>316574768
Naw, not the same as chess.
I was just thinking to myself that the only time you get real strategy is when you remove base building and make that a pregame setup kind of thing like chess or blood bowl.
>>316574695
the blademaster strategy is easy to beat if you can micro and macro decently
>playing human? build arcane towers then grab mountain kings hammer out
>playing orc? hex him with the shadow hunter
>playing undead? put him to sleep with dreadlord
>playing night elf? mana burn with demon hunter
if all else fails you can just macro properly so he cant get into your base
>>316574837
Then you don't understand chess. Chess is all about rushing to control the middle of the board. Once you're there you've basically won.
>>316574714
yeah, starcraft multiplayer with friends was fun before people started watching koreans for cues and measuring out the space between their leg and the bottom of the desk for optimal hand coordination. I gotta get a good group of geek friends together now that we're too old to git gud, we could have fun now.
>>316572772
control interface
too challenging for even the best players in the world to do what they want with units.
>>316574750
But anon, I played against my friends and after a few minutes of warm-up we were already having engaging matches, with goals going back and front, people crashing into each other, using rocket boosts to go fast and goal-keep and so on. We weren't playing anywhere close to perfectly and anyone slightly decent would have raped us, but we still played the basic game in all its functionality, just with less skill. Because we surpassed th skill floor, but weren't even close to seeing the skill ceiling.
You still keep mistaking skill-floor for ceiling. Switching your car mid-air through boosting to hit the ball in a specific angle is something I can think of, but not actually do in practice, because I'm not skilled enough to do so. But doing that is not somehow a base-requirement for playing the game- it's an advanced strategy, something covered in the gap between skill floor and ceiling, not between '0 minutes played beginner' and skill floor.
>>316574883
Fair enough, I am a shitty chess player so you're probably right.
However I'm pretty good at blood bowl, I'd say it's a good example of a pure strategy game with no rushing faggotry. Too bad there's never been a half way decent vidya adaptation.
>>316574714
Good thing that doesn't apply here since RTS have been focused on multiplayer since WC2.
>>316572772
Poor balance between strategizing and >>316572901
I'm not whining about it being too hard to do shit, but the outcome depends a bit too much on how good you are at clicking a lot of things very fast rather than strategy.
>>316574704
>Every single game that gets competitive will have people figuring the best way to play.
The good games don't allow that.
Go is simply unsolvable with our technology, thus you can only rely on your skills (developed tactics) and a proper strategy.
Chess is only solved to a certain move, so past that, you're on your own and back to thinking it all out on the move.
This is all in stark contrast to competitive RTS games, all of which are already solved and you simply have to execute them correctly.
They're more akin to a fighting game where all the moves are obvious, you just need to have better execution than your opponent.
>>316574973
Why do you think the term skill floor exists if it only refers to the minimum amount of time where you can *literally* begin to play the game? What kind of games could you possibly be referring to?
>>316574704
Unless you introduce some kind of variables that change the game with every round. It's hard to think of something liket hat without making it annoying for the player, though. Like, you play in stormy weather, reducing effectiveness of bow weapons by x%, forcing players who intended to spam ranged units to switch their setup. Hell, maybe even introduce that mid-round and have people adapt.
>>316574995
What about FUMBBL Or however you spell it?
>issued three warnings in a row
lol mods
>>316574995
what's fun about chess is it has had time to develop strategically over more than a century, and ideas are still being refined or refuted. it's cool, but it's very hard to become a part of
RTSes suck because I suck at them and have no interest nor time to git gud
>>316574520
The main reasons I'd rather play RTS than TBS are the limits implied by turns.
Speeding things up or slowing them down, for example - something that usually takes three turns might be sped up to take two turns instead, meaning you can only speed up the process by at least 33%. On the other hand, something that usually takes one turn can only be delayed by at least one turn, making it take 100% more time.
What I'm trying to say is that turns are severly limiting your design options if you don't want to break the system entirely. This could be mitigated by making everything take a lot of turns, but that would make the game way too slow, not in terms of gameplay, but rather in terms of time it takes to process turns.
The grid system most TBS use also annoys me greatly and totally breaks the immersion in many cases.
It's just too "rough" in many ways when compared to the elegance of RTS.
RTS games are a timesink, and no timesink video games are worth getting into in the long run of life.
>>316575101
It's definitely better than that abortion cyanide spewed forth from their dirty french whore hole but idk I never got into it.
Blood Bowl should really be played with people you know imo.
>>316575057
No, extremely random games don't have that, but any game that has a semblance of stability in the variables of every game will be eventually studied by competitive people to figure out if there are ways to materialize your game understanding into more optimal play.
That is not something bad, that is not something that "hinders innovation", that is something natural, and it means the game has enough depth that studying it grants you an advantage over people that plays it blindly.
I'm not talking about "solving" the game, no RTS has been solved ever, you're just being terribly ignorant, you're probably thinking of Starcraft since it's the game everyone flocks to when they hear the word "autistic gookclick" but BW kept seeing new strategies 9 years after it's release, the same goes for SC2.
>>316574826
I want to command an army of marines anon, not play the fucking piano.
>>316575061
Dwarf Fortress has a high skill floor, because to start playing most people need to play with a guide, and to get your first self-sufficient fort you need a few hours of learning the ropes
Dota has a high skill floor, because its goals, mechanics, meta, everything is obstuse and can only be learned through guides, or being in the live situation and watching others do it right. The very least a player has to know is going to a lane, what items to buy at the beginning, the fact that you don't autoattack enemy creeps, that you don't use your skills randomly, and so on.
Of course you can now argue about when a skill transists for some elemental requirement to an advanced strategy. But my point still stands- A game that anyone can play to some minimum standard, without any exterior help, within a few minutes of starting the game, has a low skill floor.
>>316575057
>They're more akin to a fighting game where all the moves are obvious
Nigga do you even oki
>>316575260
Some people don't know anyone who likes blood bowl. Or table top games for that matter.
>>316575065
>Unless you introduce some kind of variables that change the game with every round. It's hard to think of something liket hat without making it annoying for the player, though. Like, you play in stormy weather, reducing effectiveness of bow weapons by x%, forcing players who intended to spam ranged units to switch their setup. Hell, maybe even introduce that mid-round and have people adapt.
THIS
There needs to be some random factor happening at some interval (fixed or not) to have some fun with them.
Otherwise it becomes this>>316572965
>>316575335
Yep, kind of sucks that the best IRL mutliplayer activity aside from orgies is practiced mostly by the antisocial.
>>316575296
>Dota has a high skill floor
Nonsense. You could take the exact same thing you said about Rocket League and apply it to DOTA, almost word for word.
>A game that anyone can play to some minimum standard, without any exterior help, within a few minutes of starting the game, has a low skill floor.
That would constitute nearly every game ever made then.
Which civilization is the most annoying to fight against in AoE2?
>>316573732
>Playing on 2v2 mountain map
>Both me and my friend is IG
>Spam sentry turret and the HB squads for IG
>Entire path is blocked by 40+ turrets and both of our enemies are Orkz
>They get free sluggas and hundreds of Squiggoths and Orkz run to their deaths
>Bombing the fuck out of their base with Basilisks
>Checked how many units they lost in that game
>55k
IG doesn't fucking play around.
![495894_full[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/AEk3Qb4.jpg "495894_full[1].jpg")
>What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
1. Many fast-paced RTS games boil down to heavy micro-management, meaning that instead of the victor being decided by actual strategizing it's usually more about who is the fastest clicker and has memorized the meta build orders and other hotkey combinations by heart.
2. Despite most RTS games making the player oversee base building, scouting, resource gathering and actual fighting (possibly on multiple fronts) all at the same time, for some reason many games severely limit the max zoom out possibility, forcing players to use control groups, unreliable tiny mini-map or other hotkeys to constantly shift between all those aspects instead of being able to control everything on one screen. I have no fucking idea why devs do this since LoS already works to limit the player's visibility.
One reason I loved RUSE is because everything could be done with simple mouse clicks and control groups. The build screen was constantly visible, the build screen allowed you to stack units before actually ordering them and designate their waypoints, after which the nearest appropriate bases automatically started building those units. Bases themselves were built the same way: click where you want the base built and your HQ automatically sends out a building truck that could be intercepted by enemy forces (in which case the player loses the invested resources) or called back to HQ for refund. On top of those you could see the whole map at all times, making it easy to push multiple fronts at the same time and co-ordinate with your teammates.
>>316575372
there is a random interval
its called min max
>>316575442
Mongol
My time is more valuable than the time it takes to git gud at an RTS game.
>>316575514
Just like real life.
>>316575065
Have you ever heard of those things called "maps", anon?
>>316575556
SHUT THE FUCK OFF YOU NIGGER
>>316575461
IG and necrons are the most fun when you are playing defensively I think.
>>316575296
Needing to read a guide doesn't necessarily make DF have a high skill floor anon. I mean seriously all you need is a few hours and some reading competency, past that it's all basic organization skills.
>>316575431
Sure, these terms are hard to define. But why even use skill floor then, when it says absolutely nothing when applied to something like RL?
No seriousy, I really don't see how you can claim that RL has a high skill floor in any sense of the word. Can you give me an example of a low skill floor game, in your opinion?
>>316573516
>if you aren't a football player in a world champion team you aren't playing football
no you fucking idiot
people in these threads always seem like they just don't like videogames in general, at their very concept
they seem more interested in having an Interactive Explosion Simulator than an actual game, you know, with goals and rules and stuff
>>316573213
No it isn't.
>>316575604
Jesus man. I didn't know the mongols even had an internet defense force.
>>316575582
Not random enough
Your basic strategy is not going to change most of the time, you're going to be a little slower if your resource node is far away, or you'll have to wall it off if the enemy can easily harrass it, or something. You're still going to spam x unit with y faction with z build order, unless you see enemy doing a in which case you'll spam b unit with c BO
What the hell is a game's "meta"?
>>316575698
Nah he's obviously Russian or Chinese
They're not all like AI War: Fleet Command, which is the absolute pinnacle of strategy games bar none.
>>316575620
It does have a high skill floor for a single player management game, though. I mean these terms are all relative anyhow. You're not competing with anyone, so defining how skilled you are is pretty difficult. But compare DF to like Sim City- there you can immediately start building your first little town and it will slowly grow, albeit not at top efficiency.
>>316573630
>>316573465
>>316573837
holy shit this autist
>>316572772
>What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
Too difficult for the average console shitter.
>>316574634
Before I mained IG, I mained Necrons. Those guys were fucking OP for some time.
>>316575461
Did those Orks even send Nobs with Doks at you? Those can be really fucking hard to kill.
>>316573364
Do you even know what micro is? Games like LoL and DotA take out every aspect other than the micromanagement of units.
Strategy is a thing in every game, regardless of genre.
>>316572772
It isn't really flawed in my opinion, it just hasn't moved past the get stuff build stuff spawn stuff kill stuff formula, which isn't inherently bad but it's just too stale at this point.
>>316575787
Meta means how the game is played in general. What strategies are dominating, how you can expect others to play and how you should play in order to compete with them. Even though you might have a open toolbox of different units and stuff, only a certain number of them are used in a specific way.
>>316575472
/thread
>>316576008
But the same logic could be applied to every single game
Shooters: Hasn't moved past moving and shooting stuff
Racing: Hasn't moved past driving in cars
You're asking genres to stop being what they are, which is fucking stupid.
>>316572772
Lack of creativity
Its a stagnant as fuck genre that has failed to modernize.
