How did did we degenerate this much?
>>315313898
The hobby opened up to the general public. The general public is retarded.
>>315313898
>huuur durr more text on screen makes it more profound
>>315314246
HATE TEXT
>>315314246
because designing their entire dialog system around a controllers 4 face button limit is such a great idea
>>315313898
At least the faces improved
>>315314158
This is is all there is to it, you can say this line a million different ways but this is why. What's the solution though? That's my question? The only thing I can think of is we have to wait for producing video games themselves to become cheaper, so that more complex vidya Can be created without the fear of losing money
>>315313898
>5 options + exit
>3 + (judging from the size of the scroll bar) 3-5 more options + exit
>3 options + expanding option that gives you more info and questions to ask
I dunno, they're different and all fine.
>top
>pic related
>bottom
>straight to the point
Brevity is the soul of wit senpai
>>315313898
>>315313898
>A bunch of fucking bland exposition
>Somehow better than a few lines of "to the point" voiced dialogue
>>315314246
>me no think more 4 options when talking someone else
>>315314394
As right as he is, there is no denying that something has been lost over the course of the series in Fallout.
There has undeniably been a much less meaningful interaction between the player and the world, and the experience has been diluted for the sake of being friendly and unpunishing.
Now, I don't condone such changes that bring about drastic shifts in direction for the worse, there is no argument when it comes to seeing your actual response or being given a vague four directions style dialogue wheel where you can't even see what you're going to say.
That screencap is misguided and misused in this thread, and does certainly not apply to most of what we've seen about Fallout 4 so far.
Leave it to /v/ to be retarded, even when it tires not to be.
Sage.
>>315314495
It worked out pretty good in The Walking Dead.
>>315314660
>expanding option that gives you more info and questions to ask
so did the other 2 you fucking idiot while still giving you a lot of options
>>315314158
This is basically the answer. You can see the example of it literally one post below this anon.
The thread should have ended here. Why are we still posting in it?
>>315314882
I personally would only waste so much time as to come up with two options, and stick to one.
>>315314246
>[INT 1] 4 OPTION, GOOD, ME LIKE SIMPLE
>>315314978
ok
>>315314246
READ HARD
HATE TEXT
society and money.
Games cost a shitton of money and they need to make money, therefore the game MUST appeal to general public. Genral public are normals. Normals are retarder or/and sjw politicaly correct casuals with an attention span of a dingo dog on sugar treats.
>>315314921
try harder
>>315314921
but in that game there were timers attached to the dialog choices so you had to be able to read all options quickly. here there is no time limit, so theres no point in giving a summary of each option. they could at least give the full response if you hover over an option.
>>315315121
[SPEECH 12} ME NOT TALKIE, ME LOVE SHOOTIE AND DOGGY
>>315314670
every time
>>315314745
Your character is fully voiced in Fallout 4 though. Do you really want to hear the actor read all that back to you if you've already read it?
Fallout 3's (and TES's by extension) dialogue worked well for a game with a largely silent protagonist. You could see what your character was saying without hearing their voice. With FO4 they went with a voiced protagonist, and when you have a voiced protagonist certain things have to change. That's just the nature of game development.
I have no idea if TES6 is going to have a voiced protagonist or not. Given that there are multiple races who all have different vocal archetypes attached to them, I'd say it's more likely that they stick to text-based PC dialogue, but then again maybe Bethesda is crazy and they will do 10,000 lines of dialogue times however many playable races TES6 has. Maybe this is a point at which Bethesda intends for Fallout and TES to fork further away from each other.
>>315315212
People forget that vidya is a business, and it has exploded. Long gone are the days where companies like Bethesda put passion into their products, though there are still a few good eggs out there
>>315315045
It's not only about how you converse though.
Fallout is supposed to be a role playing game, where you should be able to create a fleshed out character and explore a realistic world as whoever you want.
If you think every conversational outcome can be boiled down between a NPC and a unique character to four fucking options then you are beyond retarded.
I'm not saying FO4 will be good, I'm not saying I even plan to play it, but can we have at least a modicum of perspective on the whole dialogue thing?
Alpha Protocol has fucking awesome dialogue. It's tight, occasionally hilarious, and is always clear what sort of response you're giving. It feels more like real conversations than any other game I've played, because there isn't one path you have to go down for the conversation to end- it isn't "win" or "lose" the conversation, and it's stronger because of that.
FO4 probably won't be like that. In fact it almost certainly won't be. But at least articulate your point with more thought than "OOGA-OOGA SHORT RESPONSE = BAD BAD."
>>315315541
>Alpha Protocol has fucking awesome dialogue. It's tight, occasionally hilarious, and is always clear what sort of response you're giving.
No it isn't.
>Female character offers to give you information in exchange for protection
>Pick "interested" option
>My character flirts with her and pisses her off
>>315315452
>role playing game
>create a fleshed out character
>as whoever you want
I guess this game will appeal more to people like me who straight up don't give a shit then. The closest thing I've come to enjoyable RP has been in WoW. I literally could never understand how some people like to roleplay with... themselves. Alone. Solo. With noone to build a story with. Just your own imagination.
I'd like to call those people autistic but I don't care enough to look up what an autist really is.
>>315314882
People in real life only think of one option during a real conversation, therefore Fallout 4's dialogue is four times better than real communication.
>>315315414
then they shouldn't have given the protag a voice
>>315315212
The previous Bethesda Fallout and Elder Scrolls games appealed to the general public just fine without a dialogue wheel.
There's far too much stock put into the actual content of the game. Casuals don't give a shit. They play whatever's been hyped up the most. That means ad bucks and 10/10s which are pretty much guaranteed for any Bethesda title.
>>315314158
Anon is right. In time all the casuals will realize that their 10/10 GOTY Skyrim and Fallout 3 (their first vidya and RPG ever) were awful games that needed way better game mechanics and atmosphere to be enjoyable.
Give it another 10 years for the normies to git slightly more gud and realize that they're playing shitty games and we'll be back on track.
>>315315414
Nobody asked for voiced protag, much less voiced by faggot Baker.
People say the dialogue wheel is like Mass Effect, but it's even worse. Mass Effect at least gave enough information so you had a good idea of what your character would say. If Fallout 4 gave a little more information other than HATE NEWSPAPERS, FERAL?, or SARCASTIC then it wouldn't get so much hate.
>>315315414
Deus Ex displayed the full line if you hover over the option.
People like knowing what they're going to say in a roleplaying game. Or else we get shit like LA Noire's dialog system.
>>315315414
And that's precisely the problem with FO4. The voiced protagonist. Sure it sounds cool to have all dialogue voiced, but it just limits the choices so much. Personally I think voiced protagonist worsens the role-playing part as it feels like I'm not role-playing as anyone I want, rather just controlling a pre-set character.
>>315315680
And I guess what I mean with saying
>>role playing game
is that I understand that it IS an RPG, but.. an RPG to me has only been a way to shorten "game that lets you spend attribute/skill points in a build". That's been it to me when I've played them.
>>315315680
>Normie has no imagination.
Damn that must suck.
>>315314745
What font is it?
why couldn't they have some sub title stuff like human revolution
>>315316138
>>The closest thing I've come to enjoyable RP has been in WoW
It's not really a surprise
>>315315680
You're literally trying to call people with an imagination autistic.
Could you be any more pathetic?
>>315314745
So basically Fallout will become Mass Effect? Because that's exactly what that last image represents.
>>315315414
Alpha protocol did a pretty good job with a voiced protagonist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUydx57te9s
>>315315001
What kind of looser would play video games ten years by now?
>>315316138
>imagination
God damn it are you going to bring up that shit again?
I remember arguing with people about that shit before. I think it was Etrian Odyssey IV.
>complain about how there is basically no story, no connection to characters, no reason to connect either, everything is just empty and boring, least amount of character I ever felt from a game
>YOU HAVE NO IMAGINATION
>YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO ROLEPLAY AND GIVE THE CHARACTERS THEIR OWN PERSONALITIES YOURSELF
>THEY DON'T SAY ANYTHING BUT YOU JUST HAVE TO IMAGINE THEM TALKING TO EACH OTHER
etc
You people kind of terrify me.
>>315315296
It's obvious bait.
TWD is a linear experience; a completely different kind of game compared to Fallout. His statement holds no relevancy. TWD does not have a massive game world, exploration, nor is it an RPG. You cannot refuse "quests" or roleplay a character.
TWD is an interactive story, your character has already been created for you.
There's not a valid comparison, or argument to be made between that specific gameplay element that can't be picked apart with ease by anons.
Two completely different genres.
>>315315680
>Just your own imagination.
Huh? The point of a CRPG is that it isn't imagination, that the game and narrative directly supports the player's actions and decisions through reactivity and feedback.
>>315315875
>faggot Baker
Oh you triggered me now, son.
Troy Baker is an amazing VA and all this hate is completely unwarranted.
>b-but he's gotten really popular, and if i don't hate him i won't fit in...
>>315315680
Are you literally braindead?
>>315316389
>HATE MUTT
Dog will remember that...
>>315315414
Voice Acted protag's suck unless the character is fully established, and the game is based on the player roleplaying as that established character. Bethesda and Bioware RPGs voice act the protagonist, even though the protagonist is designed as a (largely) a blank slate for the player to develop, instead of roleplaying as an established character with an established personality.
Basically, Bethesda, Bioware, and too many others want their cake and to eat it too, and it sucks.
Post that coypasta about the writing failing the 5 basic rules of the system fallout is based on.
>>315316381
A line needs to be drawn. Etrian Odyssey is an empty as fuck game and don't let people defend it with calling you unimaginative, a game has to be roleplay friendly in the sense that it must support your actions and choices with in-game results, and the "imagination" part will only come from you thinking up your character's general backstory and alignment to stick to your choices in the game.
For example, you want to roleplay a lawful evil character, so you pick the choices a character like that would pick, and let the game build upon it and react accordingly.
This is completely lost in Fallout 4.
Apples and oranges.
>>315316138
>Paying money to imagine things
What's it like being retarded? If your imagination has to carry the experience, you should just sit in your room, close your eyes, and imagine you're in the situation you want to be. 100% flawless roleplaying experience.
>GECK comes out
>holy trinity of Fallout 4 mods is formed
>Remove Protag VA
>Restore Dialog System
>Alternate Start
>>315315728
There is only a human character to play as in Fallout, so it kind of lends itself better to voiced dialogue than Elder Scrolls. You can't exactly have a high elf and an orc having the same voice.
>>315316527
See what? That post isn't even talking about CRPGs.
>>315316527
See >>315316668
and >>315316393
You're a retard and a moron. Shut the fuck up an stop posting already.
>>315316725
That's not going to stop Bethesda from trying.
>>315316381
But that is a stark difference between say the roleplaying that plays in my head when I played F2. Cause in F2, the skills and traits and perks I picked helped support the character I was playing.
>Low int characters.
>High speech low combat skills.
>The interaction you make with all the characters.
Shit I remember my first real playthrough of F2back in like 07where I kept reloading just because I wanted to keep my ingame shotgun-wedding wife alive.
>>315316089
>a RPG to me
That's great, and all. But a RPG is about playing a role
I want to be a bumbling marauder jet addict that cons naive villagers to support his habit
I want to be an iditoic explosive crazy nut who isolates himself in the wastes, dynamiting any sorry sap who dares to venture too close
I want to be an altruistic scientist who is intelligent but a useful fool easily deceived by smooth talkers.
You can't do any of that shit when dialog is boiled down to HATE, YES, NO, NEWSPAPERS, GET, ME LIKE, ME NO LIKE, NO TOUCH, HEY, STOP.
If I wanted to play a boring bland shooter where I try to run through the game without thinking about my character just trying to max my stats, I'd play a fucking shooter.
>>315314394
Why did you make an img out of your own rant? You realize nobody but the person that wrote that learning disabled monstrosity would think it was worth saving?
Leave life.
>>315316063
And I agree to an extent, however I think that between the two franchises that Bethesda develops, a voiced protagonist is less likely to harm Fallout than it would Elder Scrolls. I'm willing to give it a chance, and if I don't like it then I will jump right in with you guys and start shitting on it and trying to mod it out, but I want to at least play the game for a few hours and see how I like it for myself. I don't think a voiced protag will be quite as limiting as it was in something like Mass Effect, because Mass Effect itself was a much more limited game (it was a linear game and your roleplaying options always just boiled down to being polite or rude).
>>315316845
I hope we are not giving them any ideas.
>>315316668
I see.
I'm just saying that putting more effort into playing Fallout than
>decide on SPECIAL stat distribution
>decide on roughly what playstyle you want in that playthrough and set perks accordingly when leveling up
>picking good, neutral or "evil" options on the go depending on what you think about the character you're interacting with at the time
is just overdoing it.
>spending time making up an imaginary background, like where the character came from (the vault?), what they like and don't like, etc
>this charcter is evil and as such i will only pick evil options or straight up murder everything in sight
>this character is a cowboy and i will dress up as one because of that
Like I just don't see the point. If I want to change on the fly, I'll do that. These things would keep me away from doing that.
>>315316771
Sure, but Anon, why are you so frustrated over my opinions? I have literally not said anything that could be taken as offensive.
I hope the low int dialog is the character saying what's on the dialog wheel.
>>315317030
>Altruistic scientist who is intelligent but a useful fool.
>Always getting into shitty situations just trying to do the right thing.
>Still does it anyways.I was thinking of making a FNV character modeled after EMIYA , a justice-crazed guns-using fanatic that slays anyone that doesn't fit his defined ideal of justice.
>>315317160
This going to be worse that ME2 anon.
I can feel it in my balls.
And if you really want to try it just pirate it man, don't give these fucks money when you're not 100% satisfied/happy with what they're doing with something you LOVE.
>>315316714
this and some hud mods and I'm gonna spend another 200+ hours in fallout 4
>>315316725
still, the money saved on a voiced protag could have been spent on making the game good AND would give us full dialog options
>>315317376
My physical PC copy is already pre-ordered and paid for. Worst case scenario I will put the game down for a few months and then mod the shit out of it when Creation Kit is released. I know it's going to have a bunch of problems when it launches but I still want to play it.
>>315314625
The solution is having a casual mode and a hardcore mode in the option menu
That fucking easy
Who the fuck wants to read through 2 pages of dialogue? The witcher has a pretty simular mechanic to fallout 4 and everybody jumps on it dick, you know why? Because it fucking works.
>>315317309
>Change on the fly.
That's nice that you want to be able to do everything in one playthrough anon. But that's nothing like real-life. So it kills immersion. I don't want to be able to do anything because then it takes the 'role' out of playing. If I can just do anything at any time with no problems on whether I have the skills or finesse then I am no longer playing as a certain role but simply the god of that universe.
>>315317583
>I know it has a bunch of problems but I still want to play it.
THEN WHY NOT PIRATE IT ANON?
WHY SETTLE FOR MEDIOCRITY?
IS THIS HOW YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE?
>>315317608
>Having more options in games.
NAH MAYNE
WE NEED MORE VOICE ACTING.
NOT ENOUGH TIME TO FIX THINGS.
VOICE
ACTING.
>>315317309
Just because you don't see the point doesn't mean there isn't one.
The whole point of role playing games is being given the wide array of options and roles to play, and to play them to their fullest extent within the game.
Just because you don't see the point or don't like going out of your comfort zone to play a distinct character that isn't just a reflection of yourself or a gun running rut you'd find in your average FPS doesn't mean nobody else should.
And as I said, an RPG isn't about you having to pour in all your imagination for it to work, for it to work and stand on it's own it has to give the player the support in the form of outcomes, responses and options to carry out the different roles the player can choose to do in the game.
That's why in games like Sacred you had different races and roles that you could play and the dialogue trees varied, you played a certain character but you really didn't need "imagination" to do it.
In Fallout NV you can play many different types of characters, and there's plenty of dialogue options to do so.
In Fallout 4 you only have four different options at any given time, and they're extremely streamlined and unspecial, you're only playing as this vault dweller Bethesda (and not you) has created. It removes the role playing elements of the role playing game. Because, as much as idiots that want to play with semantics do, just because you play the role of the Master Chief doesn't mean the game is an RPG. This is the same, just because you play as the Vault Dweller doesn't mean it's an RPG.
At the end of the day, a GOOD RPG will not force the player to go out of their way to use their imagination as the central point of the gameplay/roleplay.
And it's why games like KOTOR are considered good RPGs and Dragon Age Inquisition are not.
>people using modern fallout as POSITIVE examples, just because the latest is somehow even worse
brb killing myself
>>315314443
I am starting to like this meme.
I don't mind the shortened text, but I do mind the limited options. Pretty bummerific.
>>315317892
IT JUST WORKS
>>315313898
>degenerate
fuck off back to /pol/
fo4 will be great
>>315317918
Because when I want to use something I usually buy it.
I considered pirating Dragon Age Inquisition, but decided that if it wasn't worth my money it wasn't worth my time.
>>315317892
the witcher didn't shorten the responses to two words though
>>315315414
I hate being surprised by what my own character says. I feel cheated.
>>315316148
comic sans
>>315314246
A) READ LESS
fucking degenerate
>>315317309
You're coming off as condescending and implying that people who actually roleplay in roleplaying games are autistic.
>>315317892
That's because Geralt had two games worth of stuff to establish his character, dumbass.
>>315318143
Yeah in many cases it did, and then geralt would expand on the answer.
>>315314394
that's true but this is a textbook example of that sentiment being completely right
>>315318157
Yeah, when the choices are extremely vague and then the character does something unexpected it irks me. I think Walking Dead had a pretty good handle on it, because I generally knew what kind of response Lee was going to give based on my button prompts.
Unfortunately TWD is not designed for multiple playthroughs. It's a lot of smoke and mirrors to make you feel like your choices matter, but in the end doors A, B, and C all lead down the same hall, just done in such a way that you won't realize it until you play the game again and try to do things differently.
>>315317892
Geralt's an established character with a long fucking history and a distinct personality/backstory. Fallout protagonists aren't like that at all, nor should they be.
>>315317918
>So it kills immersion.
For you.
I'm plenty immersed with everything else the world has to offer. It's what the other characters do and react to that makes my immersion. My "character" is just me reacting to the world - I guess I always just pretty much self insert?
>it takes the 'role' out of playing
Well yeah. I play these games for the entertaining gameplay mostly. The story will be told largely in one way no matter what options I go with. If it's like in New Vegas with different factions and all, I simply just pick the other factions to see their side of the story, not because my character has anything to do with it.
>but simply the god of that universe
Isn't that what video games do best?
>>315318195
I think it's just my poor english understanding that lets me not give a shit what I type Anon. Sorry if it offended you.
But if not autistic, then, "nerdy"? Would that be better?
As I stated I can definitely see RP being an entertaining thing... with more people.
>>315315414
>Your character is fully voiced in Fallout 4 though. Do you really want to hear the actor read all that back to you if you've already read it?
I'd rather have no spoken dialog by the protagonist. I wouldn't be surprised that they axed skills so they can have a dialog wheel system by removing any possible avenue to having more dialog choices.
>>315316714
Literally wont happen
>>315315798
>>315315001
>>315314625
>>315314158
The hobby opened up to the general public in 1999 with PS2, you just aren't old enough to have seen it. Even the first playstation was massively popular.
>>315318546
>Video games.
>Nerdy.
HOLY
FUCKING
SHIT
CALL THE NEWSPAPERS.
>>315313898
Consoles.
>>315313898
it's the underage kids. they can't read more than 2 lines without falling asleep due to terminal ADHD so any game can't just give up like 20-30% of the audience and all future audience like that.
>>315318724
No, Anon.
>>RP.
>>Nerdy.
That would be more like it.
>>315318687
Yea but back then normies definitely did not have as large of a say in games back then. It was really only till the late PS2/XBOX era that it really started to get bad. Then Bethesda released horse armor and it's been mostly downhill ever since.
>>315318687
>1999 with PS2
The PS2 came out in 2001 you dumb ass
>Even the first playstation was massively popular.
And the SNES before it, retard.
Since the NES that the vidya industry has grown, every console after the NES is a normie console.
>>315315414
I don't want a voiced protagonist in a game where I'm supposed to roleplay as whatever. In Fallout 4 I don't roleplay as anything other than the protagonist. Whatever name he's given, it's a set character now. His background is set, he has a voice, they really outdid themselves this time in making the game seriously hard for people that want to actually roleplay.
So yeah fuck that, I'm not buying a lackluster RPG lol
>>315318660
Wouldn't an additional dialogue choices perk be even more rewarding in a fully voiced game?
>>315313898
HATE NEWSPAPERS
>>315318546
Not either of the people you are replying to, but I adressed your point about the self insert here >>315317919
And again, since you're playing a self insert mindless character, the illusion of consistency and coherence within the game doesn't need to be too thought out, as you'll just react to whatever situation the game gives you, regardless of your alignment or roleplay directions, because you're roleplaying as yourself and your just taking everything for granted.
That's why Fallout 4 will appeal to you, but not to the people who like fully fledged out RPGs with many options and paths to take.
And for the last time, just because you don't get it doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.
I for one find people going to watch soccer matches to the stadium completely pointless and utterly boring, but I don't go out of my way to flaunt that when that gets ruined for them.
Once again, for the sake of simplicity and a more unpunishing and friendly game design, deep and meaningful choices and interactions in an RPG game get the boot.
>>315318874
TES was a DxD setting that became a videogame. I don't think Fallout was, but it was based on Wasteland, a very DxD like game.
>>315318979
>His background is set, he has a voice, they really outdid themselves this time in making the game seriously hard for people that want to actually roleplay.
That's fine. It already sounds like something I'll enjoy a lot more.
The only thing that truly matters is that the gameplay is entertaining, and so far it looks to be an upgrade from the previous games in most categories. And that's all that matters.
How do we fix the video-game industry? With the huge influx of casual and fake gamers in the past couple of years, we have obviously seen a decrease in quality games and developers getting lazy because they know marketing and name brand is more important than quality of the game. I'm not saying this to seem patrician or "elite gamer making fun of newcomers" I'm just saying that this popularity of games is just because of this new pro-nerd culture that a lot of people (especially females) is hopping on because of bandwagon. Any ideas on what we can do, if anything. Or do we just have to ride this shit storm out.
>>315313898
Fallout 1~2: Combined about 600.000 units sold
Fallout 3 : 3 mil
Fallout NV : 2.5 mil
Fallout 1~2 : Basic engine, small team, small audience, educated audience of computer nerds, complex text and themes possible due to said audiance, very small corporate pressure. Little to no hype generation. Made only for the PC platform, no internet bullshit.
Fallout 3 : Famous game, Famous developer, Broad Audience, Huge team to make game no sense of community and communication, has to be made for consoles as a well as PC, has to be understood by broad audience, complex themes not possible because numerous factors including target audience, huge corporation studio, internet critique, series revival after botched project aimed to be an AAA seller instead of a story medium and so on
Fallout NV : Franchise name secure exploration of more complex themes possible
Fallout 4 : Log awaited sequel, huge corporation, broad themes not possible because of super broad audience appeal because of the success of 3 and NV. Huge hype build up from studios alternate title Skyrim. Very unrealistic hype buildup on the internet resulting in a rushed money grab because of the possiblity of future improvment via modern platforms such as Steam, PSN and XBL
>>315318979
I always had difficulty roleplaying in Fallout. If they were doing this with TES I'd be a lot more upset since I usually end up making a dozen characters in a TES game, but with Fallout I usually stick with one and if I make another character it's usually so I can do a bad karma playthrough. I understand why people who are really into Fallout are probably upset, however I'm more willing to give the system a chance in Fallout than I would be in Elder Scrolls.
>>315319446
While they look delicious, this is a case of "too big"
source: nonvirgin here
>>315319446
What the fuck do you mean "we have to do". All we can do is complain and let our voices be heard on forums and comment sections, and don't buy the games.
However know we are now in the minority, and as soon as a game makes it switch of audience from hardcore to casual/new, the hardcore audience can pretty much be ignored.
There is nothing "we" can do.
I wanted to remain optimistic but so much of this is so bad and its depressing
not even sure if I want to pirate it anymore
>>315319134
>will appeal to you
>but not to the people who like fully fledged out RPGs
But Anon I love all of those RPGs too, well, the ones with good gameplay.
There's just nothing particularily wrong with the way this game will deliver storytelling this time around.
After thinking about it I think that's our difference here. I play videogames of any genre for the gameplay and nothing else. For the largest part, what the storytelling and lore and whatever does has nothing to do with the gameplay, and as thus is irrelevant to the point where it has no influence on the game's "final score".
Like, I can't imagine anyone giving a game a low score "because the story was bad" rather than "because the gameplay was bad" to have a serious opinion.
>>315313898
>Fallout 1/2
>90% useless flavor text that changes very little in the conversation and exist mostly for roleplaying, stat-based topics have a random chance of success making save scumming essential
Why do people think this is a good thing?
>>315319737
>There's just nothing particularily wrong with the way this game will deliver storytelling this time around.
I absolutely disagree.
Also, an RPG is more than just gameplay. An RPG is an example of a game when done well the result is better than the sum of it's parts, and a great world, story and player interaction actively works towards making the game an overall much better experience than just it's gameplay.
Judging from your responses in this thread though, I don't expect you to understand that or even make an attempt to do so.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm done arguing with you.
You buy Fallout 4 and enjoy it, I can't stop you from enjoying shit after all.
>>315316643
Someone do this please.
Voiced protagonist is really dumb. Also I hate the fact that they are pushing a son on you and will 100% be in the main story. I'd didn't give a shit about Dad in fo3 because he was super stale and I fear the same for Shaun's character.
>>315319564
tell me more, you nonvirigin
>>315319694
Stay with us up all night on /v/ on release and laugh at it.
>>315320050
Has it been confirmed yet whether or not the baby is always black?
>>315319930
>role playing game
>conversation options exist mostly for roleplaying
>Why do people think this is a good thing?
Well, gee. I dunno.
>stat-based topics have a random chance of success making save scumming essential
So exactly like Bethesda's stat based conversation options then?
>>315319930
Right on. Although I do think FO4's system is way too simplified, the dialogue in the 2 first often went in circles. You would pick an option, the npc would reply, and that was it. It didn't lead you anywhere. It was just flavor.
>>315320024
>an RPG is more than just gameplay
To you.
To me, an RPG is just an indicator that the game should include stat distribution and build variety.
It's just like how an FPS is expected to be in first person and shooting guns.
It's like how an MMO game should feature at least a dozen other players online at any given time suffering through the same shitty koreagrinding as you.
It's like how a sports game has to relate to sports, or how a racing game features fast moving vehicles competing about who gets to the goal line first.
>>315320214
I don't know? I thought it generated based on your character and wife/husband looks? Another reason that he is 100% alive because they wouldn't go through this much trouble. I have a hope that he is part of a side quest a really small hope
>>315315414
its stupid and your furfag gif is bad, and your shitty ideas if you're at bethesda
>>315314394
Why are you posting an image you did yourself full of hyberbole?
Nothing is wrong with the dialog, it's the same shit as FO3. People bitching about dialog never played FO3 where they think that dialog system was somehow more meaningful or even coming close to FO1/2. It is essentially the same now, good, bad, neutral, more info in a smaller package - this is just /v/ bitching about something because they think they'll really show the industry.
It's one thing to be critical and another to be a complete autist by exclaiming, "fewer words means the game is overall shit and ruined." It's like a cycle with /v/, same thing happened with Witcher 3 leading up, and I'm sure it will happen for whatever other RPG comes out.
If you don't like it go play the new Wasteland or Pillars of Eternity for "muh dialog tree."
>>315320371
No, not to me.
What makes a good RPG is an objective thing.
You shut the fuck up already about your subjectiveness, not everything is subjective, and game design is absolutely something that isn't subjective.
Stop trying to pass your shit taste and lack of criteria as something that can't be criticized or wrong because it's an opinion.
So according to this thread, the main reason having a voiced protagonist is a shit idea is because it breaks immersion.
If someone having a voice completely ruins the RP for you then I'm afraid you're just a Normie who needs to self project into every game you play.
>>315313898
Dumbed down for console. That's it. I am a PC gamer and a console, had all of the consoles. I can enjoy console gaming but some games is better n PC, no shit Sherlock. I can geniuanly say it is dumbed down to console.
>>315320525
>What makes a good RPG is an objective thing.
Let me guess, you think Diablo 3 is a bad RPG but Skyrim is a good RPG.
The Witcher did this very well. Your response is exactly what your character will say, even if its a paragraph long, the ONLY way it should be done in my opinion, unless you're doing something like timed responses. It's not a question of less or more to read.
>>315318291
It has small sentences. Not literally "two word"-system like Fallout 4 has.
>>315320706
Skyrim is not a good RPG.
And Diablo 3, while mediocre, didn't go too much out of the way. It did some things that were certainly of bad RPGs. Haven't played it enough to fully judge.
>>315320050
>New Vegas
>be anybody
>Fallout 4
>here have a family you don't want. Oh, you wanted to play as a young bachelor? I'm sorry :^)
>>315320525
The Borderlands games are FPSRPGs. Do you roleplay there too?
>>315320884
Just having numbers thrown in the mix does not make the game an RPG.
Borderlands is NOT an RPG.
It's an FPS game with RPG ELEMENTS.
>>315320956
Borderlands has:
>stat distribution through equipment
>various types of equipment to pick around with, many having unique effects on top of giving stats
>build variety/talent trees/such
>it happens to be in first person
Yeah it's an RPG alright. It has all the defininig traits.
>>315320623
no bitch nigga,
the voiced protag reduces the amount of responses, clearly. 4 options with 1-2 words explaining them is babbys first dialogue option.
they fucked a great component up just to give a few more lines to an actor. its pretty stupid.
>>315314625
>More complex
>Literally just transcribing the dialogue which a monkey could do in a day
Tbh i actually find the wheel kind of cool in its own right, because you only see the topic/theme of the sentence you will say, leaving room to be suprised in playthroughs. But its still fukken lazy.
HATE
>>315320514
>being limited to 4 responses is the same shit
ITT: People pretending to be smarter than the general public online.
I don't think Fallout 4 will be any good but come on don't kid yourselves.
NEWSPAPERS
>>315321152
Which part of FPS with RPG elements did you not understand?
Borderlands is not a traditional RPG game, and doesn't have the core features of an RPG game, like a story that reacts to the player's character and build, and with player interaction in the form of choiced dialogue.
Borderlands just happens to be an FPS game where they threw in some stats on weapons and gear to further accentuate the level progression and a skill tree to further accentuate the player's specialization.
Is CoD an RPG? It sure as hell lets you mess with the stats of your gun and your charater with a skill/perk tree.
Shut the fuck up already you mouthbreathing moron. Borderlands is NOT an RPG.
I will not have this discussion anymore. I'm done arguing with retards for the night.
If you want to think Borderlands is an RPG, go ahead, I won't stop you from being retarded, but I will also not partake in your absolutely senseless arguments.
For the sake of everyone's brain cells, stop posting.
>>315321241
>surprised
i dont want to be fuckin suprised its an RPG and I want to know what choices i'm making, hence the entire point of RPGs
>>315321570
literal autism
>>315321525
>and doesn't have the core features of an RPG
But it objectively does. Everything else you're whining about isn't really relevant to RPG video games.
>>stat distribution through equipment
>>various types of equipment to pick around with, many having unique effects on top of giving stats
>>build variety/talent trees/such
These are RPG defining video game traits. What you're complaining about is
>muh lore
>muh storytelling
>muh character
>>315313898
Its pretty fucked how everyones just eating this up its so bland and lazy
>>315321357
4chan as a source of entertainment is far more cerebral than tv. the audience selects themselves. fuck you, and if you're at bethesda fuck you for making a dumbed-down game
>>315321525
>>315315875
Troy Baker isn't the voice of the MC, it's Brian T Delaney
>>315321829
>4chan as a source of entertainment is far more cerebral than tv.
Keep telling yourself that, pal.
>>315321851
>the only features that define if a game is an RPG or not
They are. That's why RPGs belong to such a simple but entertaining genre. Anyone can play them in any way they want. RPGs are video games for people without the reactionary skill to play shooters or the strategic ability to play, well, strategy games.
>>315315798
Reminder that in 5 years, people are going look back upon skyrim fondly and complain about 'games today.' They already do this for with fallout 3
>>315322212
I haven't heard a single person mention Fallout 3 in a positive light in comparison to today's games.
>>315322297
I liked it when it was released back in 2008 but both it and NV has aged.
>>315316345
>People honestly believe that an RPG is an RPG because it has character specialization and stat distribution
Wow, are people really not aware those are just approximations to facilitate ROLE PLAYING because computers aren't sophisticated enough to have true role playing?
Same with table top, those games that eschew role playing and are just about numbers? Those are called dungeon crawlers, not role playing games.
If anything, less numbers + still facilitating character development is closer to the idea of a Role Playing Game than "hurr durr i has stats and loot I am role playing!"
>>315323284
Don't bother.
>>315322086
ah, ok. you must be one of those in favor of a voiced protag. it's shite and your opinion is shite. fo4 is very disappointing. A little sad given 7 years and a shit load of money and this is the cartoony detritus they came up with.
the ads and the game lost the dark, dreary feel and instead picked up a facetious tone, that makes the game seem like a parody of it's past installments.
It's like mullholland drive except there's no dark undertone, just a cheesy superficial feel that's underscored with equally bad graphics and textures.
It's as if it was decided that realism was too pricey so as a cop-out a stylized graphics motif was created.
also, little retarded things like the laser having recoil show there wasn't much thought put into it, at least from intelligent minds.
major, major disappointment. but if you don't give a fuck taking money from soccer moms buying their preteens "goty" go right ahead and feel like you accomplished something of significance, you sell-out
>>315323284
>Expecting newfags to know dick about game design.
If only they'd lurk moar.
>>315323284
>he roleplays with himself
Who's the real fool here?
>>315323379
>>315323549
You are fucking pathetic.
>>315323675
What's your fucking issue, little cunt. Can't handle being told that you know jackshit?
>>315323458
>ah, ok. you must be one of those in favor of a voiced protag.
Not at all, I think it's retarded.
You must come to terms with the fact that now video games are nothing but a shell of what they used to be. Developers must appeal to the wider market in order to survive. I do not like it either but that's just a sad fact of reality.
>>315323783
>internet tough guy
Oh wow.
>>315323675
>Newfag butthurt he got called out.
This wouldn't happen if you would just lurk anon.
http://www.wikihow.com/Play-a-Role-Playing-Game-by-Yourself
>this isn't autistic at all, it's imaginative!
>>315323868
>video games keep getting better, yearly
>now video games are nothing but a shell of what they used to be
Why not move on to other hobbies? Clearly you don't enjoy videogames.
>>315323963
>if you don't share my opinion on things you're new
What an existence to think like this. Everyone else is just wrong by default.
Has being braindead been glorified so much that using your imagination at all is nowadays considered autistic?
>>315324149
The thing is, he didn't call you out as wrong by default. He called you wrong when you made it clear yourself that you were wrong, and an idiot.
>>315324143
>video games keep getting better, yearly
Are you fucking serious? A half-finished game got glowing reviews, you fucking trogg. Games ain't getting any better.
>>315321829
>4chan is more cerebral
you're living proof of the opposite buddy
>>315324369
What game?
>inb4 MGSV
>>315324483
Bitch, you guessed it.
>>315323868
that's because they have a jackass growth model they try to follow.
olive garden, after 2008, became very successful as they decided to cut the shit out of their size.
each succeeding product doesn't need to have a bigger budget. the fuckers got greedy.
case in point i would take an iteration of snake eater on modern engines/graphics bc of the story line and gameplay over the blockbuster phantom pain
and i have a feeling i'll feel the same about fo4 vs fo3.
were mgs1, 2, and 3 and fo3 really that good or is something wrong with my perspective? fuck.
BRAVO BETHESDA
>>315324582
>half-finished
Sure, okay, it lacked roughly 33% of the content and PC is probably not getting MGO3.
>got glowing reviews
Because it was still an amazingly good game, well-deserving of every positive word it got. What was still delivered is some of the most entertaining stuff you can create with a videogame. What was there is a 9/10 game.
Realistically the only cut "content" was just more story, which is exactly why it didn't have any influence over the final score. Only gameplay CAN have influence over the final score.
>>315324479
go back to the tv, shill. this game is shitty and bethesda fucked up. all this damage control.
>>315324369
Technically, they objectively get better each year with new technologies, sure they might not always be perfect but that's not something that'll ever happen. Regardless of if you think the story is stupid or if it's unfinished MGSV is still from a technical/gameplay department better than MGS1, maybe not in design (i can see some flaws in that also) but these are things you can expect of every game
I understand being cool edgy and cynical must be aligned with being more 'cerebral' but you know this kinda thing is undeniable, at least objectively
>>315324879
>Realistically the only cut "content" was just more story, which is exactly why it didn't have any influence over the final score.
Which is what really surprised me. MGS games are known for their stories and one major plotpoint in the game got axed and no one seemed to give two shits. The plotpoint that showed why Liquid hated BB so much in MGS1.
The game was great to begin with but it got extremely repetitive in the later hours. I also felt the mother base side of the game lacked a lot.
Has there been any gameplay of a non feral ghoul, or at least an image?
>>315324483
As a pretty long time fan of MGS, MGSV was quite lackluster. Though I think that comes with any magnum opus where the creator doesn't have a clear focus. It's obvious Kojima wanted to do LOADS of shit in that game without proper experience in it all. Such as open worlds and shit like that.And he STILL did it to a degree better than Bethesda does. A company that PRIDES ITSELF ON OPEN WORLD GAMES.
>>315324369
Meh. I'm having more fun than I used to with games. You have obviously lost the battle with depression and should get some help.
I like coming on here sometimes to read replies like yours. It makes me appreciate how good I've got it. Sort of like how visiting the zoo and watching the caged animals makes you appreciate being on the other side of the glass.
>>315324880
It's sad that people like you exist, I've met one of you irl and you're all very socially incompetent and autistic
aka 'I have this opinion and it's undeniable proof that I'm more intelligent than X people'
>>315323284
>Role-Playing isn't about fighting shit, it's only about muh Mary Sue characters
About as retarded as saying Role-Playing isn't about making a character and is only about rolling dice to kill monsters.
>>315316725
That is what is called a swerve/moving goalpost.
Whether it is better than Elder Scrolls to voice act (or even easier) is irrelevant to the amount of text possible without a voiced Protag.
>>315325160
kojimas open world didnt have much continuity. there weren't any random encounters of significance, like in fo3. it was a shit and repetitive open world
im defending bethesda but i have a feeling based on what i see that fo4 will lack much freedom. im already chafed at the poor graphics and dialogue options.
>>315325154
>MGS games are known for their stories
Yeah, being bloated and not that good. So surprise surprise when they decided to up and say "fuck it" all together.
>>315324685
I understand where your coming from.
For me, I would have LOVED a literal modern iteration of F2 but maybe with third person mechanics kinda like DA:O.
>Now thinking of some VATS/DA:O realtime fallout game.
Fuck that would've been so fucking good. A perfect mix of realtime combat and turnbased decision making.
>>315324863
Game?
Funny how you would just choose every option only to skip it because you wanted to have all the text options darkened. You kids are so autistic lmao.
>>315325263
You can role-play a fight. That doesn't mean dice/stats+fighting==role playing
>Role-Playing isn't about making a character and is only about rolling dice to kill monsters.
That's the opposite of what I'm saying.
>>315325176
the only cage around here is that thick skull of yours
why dont you go to your own circle-jerk, if all these opinions don't align with yours. go somewhere where you can upvote or downvote.
>>315315541
>and is always clear what sort of response you're giving.
Nope.
There are several times where it's very obtuse (pretty much the entire conversation and that ex-Alpha Protocol man you meet in Rome or whatever).
That said, AP is better than Fallout4.
>>315325463
You got a point there. Kojima's world was more a "go here and do these missions." Rather than it be an open-breathing world like STALKER's A-life.
>>315325463
>Comparing an open world stealth game to an open world RPG
Literally fucking why? I seriously don't see why people are having this much of a problem with MGSV's open world. The game is designed from the ground up to control like a structured stealth/action game in an open map, so obviously there aren't going to be passive NPC's to chat with.
The fuck is wrong with you?
>>315315414
Everyone praised it in Human Revolution so yes
>>315325561
>Yeah, being bloated and not that good.
In the recent games, sure, but MGS2 and possibly 3 (as much as I don't like it) each have one of the best stories in video games.
>>315325210
>being this mad over an opinion
clearly you have chips in the game. go back to bethesda, and drown your sorrows in tommy joes, rock bottom, or brickside you ad hominem spewing kuck.
>>315314745
>implying console games won't hold the progress until 2040
>>315325731
Great job in proving that guys point, seriously it might be worth some introspection cause you couldn't possibly be happy with this mindset.
>>315325916
But that's coming from people who develop good games anon.
You can't expect the same of idiots.
That's ableism.
>>315325176
Alright, I'm not going to read the whole conversation you've had here and I only just spotted this post out of the corner of my eye but... This is the worst post I've ever seen, congratulations. Please kill yourself.
>>315325709
No shit, the point is that role-playing isn't just about one extreme or the other, Anon. When tabletop RPGs were first coining the term, it was basically D&D and a lot of people just played to kill shit and get items while some did it for the narrative. To say that RPGs are definitively about one or the other is absolutely retarded.
>You can role-play a fight. That doesn't mean dice/stats+fighting==role playing
It does when the entire genre was basically built on the foundation of rolling dice to kill shit, Anon.
>>315325176
I'm happy that you're enjoying things but that doesn't negate the fact that games are increasingly getting lazier and lazier as time goes on. It's embarrasing to think that Bethesda is considered a AAA studio with animations and general game design like that. I mean look at Skyrim for christ sakes.
>>315325902
>game categories must adhere to those categories and not deviate, there are is no such thing as a random encounter in an open world
well i know whats wrong with you, autism.
>>315315414
>I have no idea if TES6 is going to have a voiced protagonist or not. Given that there are multiple races who all have different vocal archetypes attached to them, I'd say it's more likely that they stick to text-based PC dialogue
who knows, maybe in the next TES there will be only be a voiced human protage you have to play as,
>>315325940
I want Super Bunny Hop and his dick riders to leave, please.
>>315313898
>>315318875
THAT was the singularity, the point of no return, the begging of the era of casuals
horse armor
>>315326314
Who the fuck is Super Bunny Hop?
>>315326003
i am not happy with the game, as i am trying to express. obviously. it deserves harsh criticism as it is a disappointment. dont like it? turn off your monitor and switch on the tv.
>>315325954
I never really insulted you, being socially incompetent is a problem sure, but I'm suggesting you get help. And being autistic isn't really an insult either (except of course in the confines of this board). I'm telling you to wake up
real eyes realize real lies
Even if I was a shill I'd have shit tons of money
But good job reflecting the argument / constructive criticism, I'm sure one day you'll be a fully competent human being
>>315326170
>It does when the entire genre was basically built on the foundation of rolling dice to kill shit,
The genre has evolved.
Rolling dice to kill shit =/= role playing game
But you can have a role playing game without rolling any dice or killing shit.
>>315314394
Problem is that Bethesda doesn't simplify or improve features, they remove them.
The only addition to their games that they've made is weapon and armor mods, as well as the settlement building. Time will tell if these features just work TM like the popular mods they were based on or if they're as broken as everything else in the game.
>>315316714
>not approved for mod store
>$4.99
>not approved for mod store
>>315314158
It's the same in all forms of media, really. Look at pop music, movies, or literature and the most popular forms of both are incredibly low brow. The best you can do is keep your head down while being critical and supporting filmmakers/artists/writers who don't just throw shit at the masses.
>>315314670
you know what im getting sick of seeing sniveling little shits who think reading about a paragraph will literally kill you
>>315326403
>mfw
>>315326391
It's not you being unhappy I'm pointing out, it's you shutting down all opposing argument via ad-hominem / this weird unwarranted superiority complex.
Sure, you can not like thing, but it doesn't make anyone else less of a person for enjoying thing, not everyone cares about your investment in cool screen games.
So ultimately, it's you being unhappy in general, let a nigga help you senpai.
>>315316046
>Deus Ex
This, I was just thinking how it would be a great alternative.
>>315326216
>autism
Do you even know what that words means, or do you just parrot everything you hear on /v/?
MGSV sure as fuck isn't a perfect game, but that doesn't mean that it should have been fucking Fallout: New Vegas just because it went for an open world setup.
> there are is no such thing as a random encounter in an open world
Your Side Ops are literally exactly that, Anon. They just don't go away until you deal with them.
>>315313898
>the answer is literally in the picture
Consoles killed gaming.
>>315326361
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwi6Bv6WhIg
>>315326461
>The genre has evolved. Rolling dice to kill shit =/= role playing game
So I guess The Walking Dead and Life is Strange are your favorite Role-Playing Games, then.
>>315326763
Do you consider Diablo and the sequels to be RPGs?
Because me continuing to argue with you depends greatly on your answer.
>>315326403
how does it feel perusing this board in search of criticism of the game? perhaps the effort should have been in hiring competent people or maybe reading a book.
is this your job? if you don't get any positive feelings from this board you should leave. unless you are being paid to withstand criticism, in which case you are a keyboard prostitute.
the game is shit. don't you agree? or do you not even have an opinion?
>>315323284
While I agree with that, it is important to keep in mind that the role-playing part would also ideally invite the player to specify himself what he wants to say.
I have yet to see a computer rpg deliver an experience on par with tabletop ones.
>>315316406
Take that dick out your mouth faggot
>>315316345
alpha protocol was an entirely different game. You have a predetermined character that has different shades of his own personality. You are not actually selecting dialogue, you are selecting his mood. It's absolute garbage for RPGs where you are supposed to play your own character because that just clashes with the personality of the predefined one given to you by the game.
>>315326612
>he's coming too? roger
is repetition comforting to you? perhaps it's autism. no, i'm not throwing that word around lightly.
>tv
i haven't had tv for over a decade.
>>315326926
Not him, but, they are. They're ARPGs by definition. They're better RPG games than most other, because each of them have extensive skill trees, stat distribution, itemization, etc; the things that matter in an RPG video game.
This seems appropriate to you >>315323995. Surely you do not pretend that you can roleplay by yourself, right? It's a group thing.
>>315327004
The point is it isn't even Troy Baker voicing the protag so please quit your shit.
>>315326956
So you're calling me a shill despite the fact I never once mentioned any opinion of the game, so how could it be that I'm a shill if I didn't mention how great the game is?
Honestly I really don't care either way about the game; I'm just interested by mindsets people like you have
I run a society at a university and encounter people like you so I'm hoping I can understand them better via you.
So far I'm getting a lot of insecurities and a lot of unwarranted self-worth (which is kinda contradictory right?)
Also kinda always been shocked by this sorta dismissive shill argument meme that's been a thing here for fucking yonks, part of the reason why I think this board is far from cerebral and more of a waste of time if anything.
>>315326361
Not sure why you'd highlight the Science one, at least that one makes a modicum of sense.
The Speech check for Eden, now that was fucking retarded
>>315314246
ME
HATE
READING
>>315326606
>superiority complex
I don't have one. but i know a shit game and regression when I see it.
wait until you see the demographics on the purchasers of this game. but I'm sure you knew your target audience already. Preteens.
and have fun looking at the protag's ass, fag.
>>315319446
We let it crash and keep making and buying the games we want.
Women stormed games and other tech cultures because they were mad English, communications and psychology degrees didn't make the same salaries as STEM. In any place or hobby, a group of guys will have a fun time but as soon as one woman shows up everyone is expected to change their behavior to reflect what she deems appropriate otherwise it's harassment. Women are bullies who have no skills but the ability to leech off of beta males and fuck anything to advance their position in life. Women have always been welcome in tech and games so we just need to keep doing what we are, fight for free speech, and tell the sjw bullies to fuck off.
>>315327328
>Numbers and loot make it an RPG
Holy shit you're more autistic than I am.
Where is the character establishment or development in Diablo? There is literally none.
There is literally only "I kill shit with physical things" and "I kill shit with magical things". YOU DON'T EVEN GET TO CHOOSE -WHY- YOU'RE FIGHTING. BLIZZARD ALREADY DECIDED THAT FOR YOU IN THE CHARACTER BACKSTORY. There's not a single bit of role playing involved in the diablo series.
Don't bother responding, because I'm not going to after this post.
>>315327412
This isn't your personal blog. fuck off with your shit tier education
>>315314246
This is literally the kind of person that will swallow everything they throw at him while shilling.
>>315327490
>I don't have a superiority complex
>immediately makes statement supposing that his opinion is an undeniable truth
>goes on to say preteens are less of a person using the spectrum of himself
You sure about that? A lot of preteens are hugely talented and probably add more to this world than you and I do. Not to mention they probably got their hole or something, like that guy who had a kid at 13, I couldn't even sperms at that point.
>>315327745
Well ain't this an autistic shitfest.
>>315314246
ME NO READ. HANDLER TYPE ME FOR WHAT I SPEAK.
>>315313898
>>315315414
then why give voice to the protag? literally none of the TES games or the FO games (except 4) have a voiced protag. I hardly believe there was a massive protest about that that made bethesda decide "oh yes we definitely need to make a voiced protag for the next game!". Why waste money on something noone asked for or was not needed? Why not spend that money in an another section that could use it, like hiring someone competent to make the fucking game
this is a horrible excuse
>>315327769
Didn't you just post your own personal opinion though? Just as I'm posting mine?
For someone who supposes they're very intelligent you're not showing me that you actually are, this isn't very 'cerebral' of you.
>How did did we degenerate this much?
>did did
*opens up hands in front of your face over and over in a mocking gesture* DID DID! *does it again* DID DID!
