Its just spacing, bro! ITS A TACTIC!
>>344342850
Hehe :3
>>344342850
Sorry smash baby theres a thing called "neutral" in actual fighting games you dont just run at the other opponent excepting to open them up for free like in smash. Also SF5 is complete shit.
>>344342850
It is a tactic. It allows for depth of play. If zoning and the ability to make space didn't exist, or were substantially weakened, rushdown characters would become far stronger.
The players who complain about zoning fall largely into 2 categories
Users who play extremely powerful, but low stamina characters, who are supposed to be checked by these zoners.
New players who don't understand that health can and should be sacrificed, in order to put yourself in a positive situation where you can deal more damage than you took. Who additionally do not know how to deal with spacing tactics (this is the player that just jumps in constantly, as well)
I wonder why no real professional player would play SMASH? Seems like Haitani or Daigo would just clean shit up. Oh, that's right, the skill-ceiling is too low and it's not worth getting knocked-out by one of the thousands of man-children, no-named faggots that play SMASH.
It's zoooooning, it's called zooooning my friend.
>>344342850
>SFV
>Not SFIV
>>344344814
SF2 is broken but it's fun
>it's called proximity boxes, not randomness
>>344344814
And this is why Smash is far superior to regular fighting games.
>spacing with V Nash
Good to know you got rekt by a scrub
There is a reason nobody, outside of the few apes who play button mashers, takes fighting games seriously. The genre has always been shit and has been dead since arcades died.
>>344345652
aaahahahahaha
>Smashfags looking for reasons to shitpost again
Meleefags continue to be the worst community in existence
>>344347075
>Smash
>You can only defeat your opponent through sheer, pure skill and determination
>Fighting game
>Iol projectiles let's spam projectiles so the other guy can't do anything I'm so skilled holy shit
>>344348067
I wonder what fox's neutral B does.
or Falco's neutral B, in case you wanna argue about it not affecting movement.
>>344344814
>using a 20 year old game to shit post about modern fighting games
Though you are right. Keeping the right spacing and timing to keep that up is more difficult than it looks.
>>344349263
>>344345104
>20yo game
>Broken
>Played at EVO 2014.
>>344348542
It isnt nearly as annoying as projectile spam is in Street Fighter or any other traditional fighting game. Smash Bros is way faster and dynamic so while spamming can still be annoying it isnt nearly as cheap as it is in SF due to how sluggish it is.
>>344342850
Yes, that is a true statement.
>>344348067
>neutral jump, walk forward
>block, walk forward
>forward jump if not at risk of getting anti-aired
>use your projectile
>use most people's v-skils
>use some people's v-triggers
>use a projectile invincible move
>use a move with armor
Etc
>>344349531
Yeah its not like people like honoring the father of the tournament fighter genre or anything.
>getting zoned by NASH
HAHA! What a fucking scrub holy shit go back to smash you baby
>>344345517
what exactly is happening here
>>344349768
>Played competitively in the biggest fighting game competition
>Thousands of players come, pay entry fee, hotel, and bar to compete.
>t-they are only honoring it
Hello
>>344349821
Chun moves to the other side just slightly, fucks up the timing on her punish/fucks up her punish in general, which in turn moves her forward enough to return her to the corner and allow the Ken to win the round.
Also for anyone not paying attention, the picture OP used was from Winter Brawl, roughly 2 months before the game even released and it was only 5 seconds into the match anyways.
>>344349918
>Evo is only SF2
>implying Street Fighter 2 was one of the main events
>>344342850
Developers never should have listened to people that whined about projectiles and throws it ruined the genre.
>>344350117
So whats the bullshit then?
>>344349768
The fact that something as simple as fireball spanning forces the developers to create such complex escape techniques shows how primitive, cheap and poorly designed traditional fighting games are.
>>344349663
That's ultimately meaningless, as it's one person's opinion against a community of thousands.
And yes, being the creator of the game is irrelevant too here.
>>344350231
To be fair, throws in 4 were pretty retarded without crouch tech.
>>344350328
There is none. The anon that posted it is just a memer.
>>344348067
>You can only defeat your opponent through sheer, pure skill and determination
Or if they sd, which happens to even the best players often
>>344350361
>pressing up is a complex escape technique
>>344349572
You can just as easily jump/block in sfII, but SF isn't the pinnacle of balance because it's so old.
In SF third strike you can parry, block, jump
in sf IV you can jump, block, and almost every character has means of dealing with it
I haven't played V, so I can't comment
in short: get good.
>>344349663
Intent is irrelevant, the guy made a fighting game by accident. That's why he's been working so hard to erase his mistake.
>>344350885
literally everyone has a way to avoid fireballs in V
just gonna leave this here
>>344351742
No one asked you to leave your shit here, bub.
>>344342850
Well if you can't get past through that then you need to git gud
OMG HOW DO I BEAT THIS CHEAP TACTIC
>>344342850
I honestly can no longer tell which posters in /v/ are genuinely retarded and who is just baiting.
This concerns fighting games though so a safe bet is on genuinely retarded.
>>344342850
>/v/ talks about fighting games
>>344351742
pick up you shit before you leave this thread.
>>344345652
Came here to say this, stay mad FGCucks.
>>344343921
All of this just sounds like bad design that stuck because of people like you
>>344352962
Care to explain why it's a bad mechanic, instead of just going "it's bad design"? What about it is bad?
>>344352680
you mean the game with the most broken projectile the banana peel not to mention OP never touched a fighting game at all if he did he would not be making this argument especially with SFV where projectiles are easy to get around.
>>344353104
By just smashing a single attack you can dominate the entire match. That makes the characters' movesets and the game's mechanics entirely pointless.
>>344349768
Is Udon Makoto always this dickish?
>>344353448
No, if the opposing player takes several of his options to avoid the fireball (forward jump, neutral jump, parry in some iterations, super armor attacks in some iterations, focus attacks, then character specific mechanics like rose's reflect), then the delay after throwing a fireball ensures that the player attacking with a fireball is now wide open. It hardly dominates the entire match.
>>344353718
>It hardly dominates the entire match
Ah really?
>>344344814
>>344343921
>rushdown characters would become far stronger
Which they need to be simply because they aren't turtling. Too much reward for defensive play in SF5.
>>344353787
> Ah really?
yeah , that whole time whoever was using chunli just refused to jump forward and that is all it would have taken to stop that.
>>344352631
This meme makes sense when it's being posted on /vg/ or somewhere else, but if you post it in /v/ you are just a huge hypocrite.
>>344353787
That's SFII, which isn't known for it's balance. This is the game so broken mechanically, it actually introduced mechanics to 1v1 fighting games. Additionally many of the mechanics that now are "standard" were not in 2. The implementation of fireballs in 2 is poor, but the mechanic itself is fine.
>>344353891
I haven't played V, so I can't comment in good conscience.
>>344353891
>Too much reward for defensive play in SF5.
How can someone be THIS BAD at the game. Defensive play in SFV is the weakest it's ever been since 3S.
a
>>344353787
Oh wow. The one matchup in the one situation in the one game with the one Sagat player that has the balls and skill to pull it off. Truly that one webm applies to every single fighting game and every single situation and matchup in any of them.
>>344353891
>Too much reward for defensive play in SF5
u fukken wot m8
The only styles that get results in V is rushdown and hit and run harassment, both of which require going in. Playing defensively in V will get you killed.
>>344353954
Not him but Choi was ready for that after almost every fireball. Chun cannot jump out of the corner like that against O Sagat. She would eat a DP if she did. Chun generally loses if her back touches the wall against O Sagat.
>>344353891
>Too much reward for defensive play in SF5.
Nigga, you have no absolutely fucking idea what you're talking about. Defense is weak as shit in SFV.
>>344353891
>defensive game too strong in sf5
Please don't talk about things you know NOTHING about.
>>344354036
>That's SFII, which isn't known for it's balance
Stop trying to save face. The SFII depicted on that .webm isn't the original title; it's one of the countless revisions that game had.
So many super championship edition: the new challengers super turbo versions and they couldn't fix projectile spam. It would be laughable if it wasn't sad.
>>344353891
This is the funniest shit considering Tr4sh is one of the most boring defensive games in existence, to the point that it takes upwards of 5 minutes for a 2 stock match
>>344354036
Before 3s became a meme, ST players and 3s players used to frequently get in heated arguments on which game sported better balance. In 3s, you have much less cases of low-tiers being able to fight high tiers. Where as in ST, certain matchups are as bad as 8-2 or 9-1. Zangief/Cammy vs Honda is legendarily awful.
>>344354360
>several perfectly spaced fireballs by the best projectile character in the game at the highest level of play
>projectile spam
Nigga
>>344354360
Actually the Sagat in the webm is the version from SSF2.
>>344354360
Because you can't really rework the entire game from the ground up to fix the fundamental problems of the title without it just being a new game, and when they did just that with SF3, fireballs were balanced because they could draw from their experience. You seem very focused on an old fighting game, where the implementation of one mechanic is especially poor to illustrate your point, rather than addressing why you think current counter play mechanics are inadequate. Additionally, you're watching a matchup of two people at the highest level of play, in a particularly advantageous position, taking advantage of a weakness.
>>344354523
The balance between the games is debatable, and I know the community goes back and forth about it. My point is to illustrate that fireballs as a mechanic aren't inherently broken, and their implementation in 3s, and 4 prove that.
>>344353984
Not if I don't talk about fighting games with /v/
Why has SFV gotten progressively more shit on?
It used to be that it was shit on for the content or almost universally praised for the fighting, now most people seem to have turned on the fighting.
>>344354838
Because /v/ doesn't play fighting games, so it has no idea what it's talking about.
>>344342850
>>344346063
>>344348067
>>344349572
>>344352962
>>344353448
>>344353891
>ITT: People with developmental disabilities
Be nice to them, explain things slowly, don't use big words, and when all else fails, give them a few tendies so they'll be quiet.
>>344342850
>smashbabby detected
>>344354838
It mostly comes from the weak zoning game and the general lack of defensive capability in the game. I have a problem with it and I'll forever have a problem with it until a true zoning character pops up in the game. Until then I'm stuck playing pressure and mixup games with Rog or footsies with Birdie.
>>344355080
Smash has spacing you idiot.
>>344344560
>smash is too easy
>so therefore FGC people will be beat
>even though the game is easy
mad as fuck SF babby
![[FFF] Hibike! Euphonium - 03 [C0F1C5D9].mkv_snapshot_08.51_[2015.06.28_05.01.41].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Etu7cGN.jpg "[FFF] Hibike! Euphonium - 03 [C0F1C5D9].mkv_snapshot_08.51_[2015.06.28_05.01.41].jpg")
>its a smashbabby thread
Pools closed smashshitters
>>344354763
You are here, in v, talking about fighting games in a fighting game thread.
Not only a hypocrite, but also dumb.
>>344353413
What the fuck are you talking about?
>>344353891
>he dosn't know how to open up someone who is holding down back and anti airing with crouch h. punch
>>344355609
He's not talking about the game though. He's talking about the baboons pretending they know anything.
>>344354838
Even if I enjoy playing V, that doesn't mean that I don't think it's pretty shallow or that it doesn't support more than a couple playstyles with a samey cast.
However, I think the public opinion is tied to the bad launch. First impressions are important, so even if they iron out issues people are still going to hold it to low esteem and find other reasons to say so.
Stand back, youths. True OG zone game coming through.
>>344350206
You must be new. ST was a main event for a long time at Evo up until HDR came out.
>mfw smash fags got BTFO by jebaily on twitter
smash "pros" are literally man children
>>344355819
He is not talking about people pretending they know anything, he is talking about people pretending they know fighting games. That IS in the subject of fighting games.
What happened to people having brains?
>>344342850
If you're too stupid do deal with it then why am I gonna stop
>tfw reasonable anon btfo all the anti-fireball fags
wew
>>344350885
>knocking off SF2 because too old
>>344345652
Because people jumping around at each other's ass like they were magnets is more hype, right?
>>344342850
Complaining about fireballs in SFV, a game which literally has:
>Ryu's Parry
>Ken's EX Tatsu
>Chun's Slide
>Cammy's Hooligan
>Vega's Spin
>Bison's Reflector
>Zangief's Red Mode, Headbutt, and Lariat
>Dhalsim's Teleport
>Nash's Absorb and Moonsault
>Birdie's EX Head and Jump
>Karin's Flipping Punch Thing
>R. Mika's Slide and Jump Arc
>Rashid's Roll and Divekick
>Laura's Fireball and Jump Arc
>FANG's Dodge
>Necalli's Charge and Ground Pound
>Guile's Double Fireball
>Alex's Stomp, Jumping Grab, and EX Elbow
>Ibuki's Glide
>Balrog's Dodge
Smashbabbies are literally desperate to attack fighting games. You don't see Fighting Game players making these topics. I wonder why...
>>344344814
>This webm
This is like complaining about edgeguarding in melee. If you got pushed into the corner on Super Turbo, it's like you got knocked off of the stage in Melee. Your opponent now has a huge advantage, and your options are limited. Fuck up and you die. E. Honda has even worse shit in the corner, and he doesn't even have fireballs.
Check out this logic.
>SF2
>In the corner
>Opponent has huge advantage
>You can still fight back if you stay calm and make a good read
>Smash
>Knocked off the edge of the stage at low percentage
>Opponent has huge advantage
>Chance you'll randomly die if you fuck up your execution
>A few of your opponent's options kill you instantly
>You're forced to make a read immediately, and if you're wrong, you die, even if you're at a lower percentage
>>344356438
It's not necessarily because it's old per se, but capcom didn't have as much experience making balanced fighting games. Look how badly Akuma breaks the game. They didn't have the experience to refine all the mechanics as much as they should have been. It's still fun to play, but I don't think any pro player would call it "balanced".
>>344344814
And that's why it's the best.
fighters should have air blocks.
a perfect fighting game would be like mahvel only without bullshit touch of deaths.
>>344356184
Are you unable to read reply chains? He was talking about it being played EVO 2014.
>me Ryu, playing a set against a Balrog in casuals
>dude was mostly turtling the entire time
>whenever he knocked me down, he went for the same crush counter meaty setup every time
>start waking up with Shoryuken
>dude eats it 95% of the time
>ended up hitting him with wake up Shoryu into CA like 3 times in two sets
>>344356648
You'd be surprised.
Besides, it took 5 iterations to get ST. SF2 got refined plenty enough.
>>344356775
Idea of perfect fighting game is impossibility as that implies there is only one type of acceptable fighting game possible.
But for example I hate Mahvel and can't even look at it, but I don't go around claiming that people who like it are wrong, they just have different preferences and because people have different preferences there is no one truth.
>>344356256
What happened to people actually knowing fighting games?
>>344349768
What the fuck? Makoto can fuck right off
>>344343258
Neutral is actually pretty vital in Smash 4.
smash vs SF arguments are retarded
it's like LoL vs Dota arguments
Anyone that has played both understand that one is entry level babbys first game and the other ones is more complex. Don't get me wrong I like playing smash but it is way easier at a competitive level than SF will ever be.
>>344356624
We just need to drive Smashbabbies to /vg/ or Smashboards permanently. They're everything wrong with not just /v/, but the Nintendo fanbase as well. All the ignorant shitspewing amiibo collecting Gamecube worshipping Nintenyearolds you see online are Smash players 99% of the time, while the respectful Nintendo fans either don't touch it at all or only play it casually with friends.
>>344357150
Personally, if you have to ban characters, then I think that the game simply isn't balanced. As I said earlier in the thread, you can only refine things so far, there are certain assumptions and systems build into 2 that cause imbalances. The reason Akuma is broken is that none of the cast can deal with his kit, at a fundamental level. Super Turbo was released in 94, the amount developers have learned about balancing fighting games since then is massive, especially with a bustling online scene allowing them to collect all fight/matchup data.
>>344350073
yea, but she's cute though
>>344354597
"Based" on SSF2. He got cancelable close normals on some frames that he hasn't in SSF2.
>>344357457
It's really just Meleefags.
Smash 4 fans are not as vitriolic.
>>344344814
You cock suckers wish you had a fireball game like Choi.
>>344354036
Nah, fireballs were fine in 2. Stop ruining fireballs in fighting games please.
>>344357457
Gamecube is underrated desu but you're right about the rest
people that are almost good at fighting games annoy me far more than people that only play fighting games casually.
>>344357510
I doubt Akuma was planned to be played competitively. You have to use a cheat code, he doesn't even have proper portraits, he got CE hitboxes and properties in ST.
>certain assumptions and systems build into 2 that cause imbalances
Are you talking about RNG?
>>344357985
What about people that are actually good though?
>>344357727
This, that was a beautiful and perfectly played round by Choi, that Chun got conditioned and baited badly
>>344342850
>Trying to out fireball le ungabunga man of everything but a DP
>>344358614
I'll play games with them for hours.
>>344358515
In the HD remake, he was meant to be playable, and they even nerfed him, and he's still too powerful. It has to do with how the game is constructed, no character can really deal with him diag fireball, among other reasons
>>344353891
You must be really bad at the game then.
>>344358515
He was barely meant to be playable at all.
He's just a boss character they let you play for shits and giggles, like SNK bosses.
>>344358836
And yet, he stopped dominating in future SF games for what precise reasons?
>>344353703
>>344357307
Its womanlet jealousy.
>>344349918
ST isn't even main stage anymore and barely gets entrants except from OGs.
The game has honest to god 10-0 matchups, nobody takes it seriously.
>>344359434
Because those future SF games had completly different mechanics than SF2?
E.g its way easier to deal with his air fireballs in SF4, because of Focus and a shitload of moves with anti fireball properties.
>>344359434
Because they were different games with different core mechanics and design philosophies I'd presume.
>>344357985
>people that are almost good at fighting games annoy me far more than people that only play fighting games casually.
Why?Im one of those people who are almost good.;_;
>>344342850
>competitive party games
>>344360516
>tatooes all over the place
>beard not maintained at all just disgusting and long
Yup degenerate fuckup looser detected
>>344360516
why did he throw it away
>>344360865
Because hes a smash playing manchild with the emotional maturity of a toddler
>>344360817
>Manlet
>>344360865
didn't win first place at EVO for third year in the row so it was worthless to him :^(
Akuma barely fits in ST.
>>344361038
Yeah those are always overcompensating too.
>>344361059
REEEE I DIDNT WIN, ITS NOT BECAUSE THOSE OTHER GUYS CAUGHT UP IN SKILL OR ANYTHING
I SHOULD HAVE WON FUCK EVERYONE ELSE DESERVES NO RESPECT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqqiEt6DXZ0
BOMBS?
Whens EVO??v
>>344361973
One week fromGoogle.
>>344361973
Next Friday
>>344361759
Oh my god, Demitri... a bomb!
>>344343258
>Thinking Melee doesn't have projectiles
FGCfags would probably kill themselves trying to get around Falco lasers
>>344353703
Not sure honestly, the only Udon I've read is what they've uploaded for free online
She's probably just salty cause everyone laughed at her when she introduced herself as a fighter but then everyone accepts Elena fine.
>>344350396
>To be fair, throws in 4 were pretty retarded
They weren't at all, they were slow and did pathetic damage. The lack of pushback on light attacks allowing you ten billion tick chances and unblockable follow ups caused by the shitty fucking engine were.
>>344357129
>not naming that file JWong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46gc5lqH4W0
>>344362705
>>344360817
I've hung out with Mango in person several times, he's a good guy, hella cool, go kill yourself.
>>344363058
>Slow
They were 3f, as fast as the fastest normals.
>Lots of tick chances
This just means that a mixup isn't fucking pathetically easy to shut down like in V.
>Unblockable setups
Yeah, always shitty but thankfully all removed.
>>344362705
Is this supposed to be an attempt at humor?
>>344358836
>>344359434
>Unfortunately, things didn't work out. It's true that HD Remix Akuma is WAY WAY weaker than ST Akuma, but he's still too good. He has a game-breaking bug and must be banned for that reason alone. The bug is that he makes an opponent block an air fireball, if he lands and does his Raging Demon super while they're still in blockstun, the opponent has only a 25% chance to jump out. Yes, it's really a random chance and it's really that exact chance. This is very easy to setup and it was never intended. We specifically coded it so that you CAN jump out if you're in hitstun, but we didn't catch the blockstun bug before release.
>There are a few other bugs as well. ST Akuma's red fireball has completely invulnerable, unthrowable startup. ST Akuma's dragon punches have 0 frames of startup (hit on the first frame so they can't be safe jumped against). HD Remix Akuma retains both of those powerful properties, but he wasn't supposed to. Finally, the hit box on his air fireball, though the same as ST Akuma's, is accidentally too big in the zone behind the fireball. This makes it more difficult for characters like Honda to torpedo under it than it should.
>All these bugs are very easy to fix and really unfortunate we never got the chance. The tournament players who tested him did not know of or abuse those bugs, they knew of plenty other properties about him and did not even rate him as top tier during or even shortly after release. The point being that he would have been a fair character if not for those bugs.
tl;dr Backbone can't program or QA for shit.
>>344351742
Im a melee baby but this post is pure fuckin autism
>>344344814
>chun li player jumps in place
>not towards the enemy
if they're afraid of their ability to enter melee; and they're losing in ranged then a loss is predetermined in this matchup
>>344363565
>They were 3f, as fast as the fastest normals
Which is slow for a 2D game that isn't BlazBlue, CvS2, or 3rd Strike.
>This just means that a mixup isn't fucking pathetically easy to shut down like in V.
You don't need all those throw openings when throws are actual good. If you have three frames in SFIV you can throw, if you have three frames in SFII you can walk forward for three frames to get in range then throw.
>>344364465
It's like you don't know how SF2 works. She has to jump back in order to retain her charge for her fireball, and if she jumps forward, Sagat will recover from the fireball animation and uppercut her for half of her health because Chun has a floaty jump. There's a reason the japs have a soft ban on original sagat.
>>344364465
>Jump in on sagat
>Get DPd
Do not defend O Sagat
>>344364813
>>344364841
if a match is pre-determined and nothing is to be learned do not play
>>344357334
Difference is that fighting games and even smash are way more complex than either of those games, and dota isn't actually any more complex than league.
>>344365028
Which is why you should not allow yourself to get cornered against O Sagat or more likely, just not play ST.
>>344364465
>>344365028
What
>>344365028
It's not. You have to get pushed to the corner, which mind you O.Sagat is quite good at doing too.
What Nuki is trying to do (not that it's easy to make pay off) is time his jumps so that he takes less chip damage and isn't stuck in blockstun so he can throw fireballs back and build super meter. If Chun gets super then it's mostly dangerous to throw fireballs at her, since she can walk forward with a charged super and half-screen punish for ~60-70% with a good reaction.
>>344344814
Fireballs and DPs will forever be the greatest casual filter in existence.
>>344365671
THICK
>>344364760
Anon. 3S also has 3f throws. CvS2 has 4f throws and so does BB as a series.
3f throws were standard only in the 90s. 2000 and 2010s have had a standardized 4f for throws outside of western games and doujin fighters.
