Bloodborne is the first piece of entertainment that has truly created a world, rather than a directed and linear story.
We are plopped in the middle of a detailed and finely crafted universe, where we have to explore, adventure and piece together the goings-on of the world around us. None of the 'narrative' (if you could ever call the lore a narrative) is fed to us. Much like the NPC inhabitants, we are trying to figure out what is going on. As a result, nobody truly has the full answer.
This is one of the best methods of 'storytelling' I have ever experienced in a medium. Better than most novels I've read. A hell of a lot better than most movies I've watched.
The world is so incredibly designed and detailed, it's incredible. This is how games should tell their story. Through the world and the players interaction with such a world. It's what demonstrates the superiority of the medium above all others - that interaction and self-discovery are capable, and that the story can be pieced together, interpreted and experienced directly by the player and not by the hand of the director or author.it's also better than the unnecessarily cryptic rubbish that is the Souls storyline
It's unfortunate that it will attract a lot of shitposting merely because it is an exclusive game.
>>340370345
Also, it's by far the best Lovecraft-inspired world ever. Ever. Nothing comes close to it and it arguably is up and beyond the leagues of Call of Cthulhu. Lovecraft would truly be in awe of what has been crafted here.
I enjoyed the world of BB a great deal, but the souls style of storytelling always came off as lazy to me.
I'm the type of person that thrives on lore and getting to the bottom of what happened in a given area if I arrive after certain events.
Even if you find every piece of information, there are still large chunks missing and it ends up being frustrating because you can't get as involved in the world as you want to.
Even people that make it their mission to catalog this stuff into a cohesive story have to heavily interpret things on their own.
I get why people like it, but it just isn't my thing, it leaves me wanting in a bad way.
>>340370345
https://boards.fireden.net/v/search/filename/logo_0.png
Bloodborne shills are in full force right now for whatever reason
Also, Bloodborne's world is blatantly unfinished, they started the whole bullshit around the pthumerian side to start a "mythology" and then scrapped it along with the inclusion of chalice dungeons
The great ones in bloodbornes lore are also pathetic, and act more like statues
>>340370746
I feel like in Bloodborne the mystery is part of the world. Even if you read Lovecraft's short stories, not everything is explained. And it can't possibly be, because the eldritch truth is locked behind the knowledge of the Great Ones. Much like the players in the story, we only have access to bits and pieces of what is going on.
However, the complete picture isn't the point of your progress. It's how the characters and the world has changed in response to their pursuit of seeking the complete picture. That's far more fascinating to me.
Also, the element of interpretation and imagination is why video games can be a superior form of storytelling. We are left to discover everything ourselves and we aren't told how things are and should be. That takes our own instinct, rationalisation and investigation. It's also what thrives discussion.
As an example, Blood Merridian does not tell the audience of what has completely occurred. The ending with Judge Holden and the Boy, and the essence of Judge Holden's character and presence are left completely up to the interpretation of the audience. Is this lazy storytelling? I beg to differ. It's masterful. It allows us to think and, as a result, directly experience the mystery of the world - as most worlds should be.
>>340370345
youre right about everything except for bloodborne being the first, and it being significantly different from souls games' worldbuilding -- it's not
love it all, though
>>340371089
>bloodborne shills
Post discarded. Fuck off retard
>>340371268
What are some other games?
>>340370345
>it's better than the unnecesarrily cryptic rubbish that is the souls storyline
Okay.
So explain to me some of the history of the civilisation before yharnam, explain to me oedon, explain to me why aymgdala exists, explain to me why you encounter two ebrietas's, explain to me why rom is present in two locations, explain to me what the moon presence is and why he exists
Without using "muh lovecraft" or "muh unfathomable knowledge"
Bloodborne is at it's best when it focuses on the events that happened at byrgenwerth, the resulting split and the events surrounding the main parts of yharnam, but everything else is kind of muddled, cainhurst is really underdeveloped
Literally the only real difference from souls is the setting
Perhaps you are comparing it to 2, but 1 was fairly decent, and 3 wrapped up a lot of the questions in 1 and worked fairly well at closing itself off.
>>340370345
>The world is so incredibly designed and detailed, it's incredible. This is how games should tell their story. Through the world and the players interaction with such a world. It's what demonstrates the superiority of the medium above all others - that interaction and self-discovery are capable, and that the story can be pieced together, interpreted and experienced directly by the player and not by the hand of the director or author.
Welcome to 20 years ago.
This thread died pretty quick
>>340372896
The discussion is too sophisticated for the likes of /v/ unfortunately
>>340372884
Myst was cool but the game play far too restrictive. I do wish games would focus more on world-building than linear movie narratives. I'm not saying the latter is bad by any means, but rather that the former is far superior.
>>340371760
Hang on a key part of Lovecraft's stories is the unfathomable. The fact that you would discount such a key part of his story tells me you're not familiar with Lovecraft's work. I'm not using it as a shield for blatant gaps with no meaning - sure, bloodborne has its fair share of such gaps. Hell, I can't think of a single movie or book without such faults. I wouldn't suggest it's perfect for a second. I'm suggesting that overall the detail and world-building is pretty incredible, despite these small gaps. Nonetheless, some gaps in knowledge ARE intentional and should not be mistaken for unintentional gaps.
>literally the only real difference from souls is the setting
I beg to differ. The scope of the story is much smaller and, as a result, subject to far less 'gaps' or 'underdevelopment'. Further, the world is far more intelligible in Bloodborne as there is much more evidence to be discovered and most boss fights have a significant fit into the storyline. There's also a bit more dialogue which helps too.
>>340371760
>>340370746
I'm with these guys.
I'm a big fan of the game itself, but it's story telling, while interesting, leaves me wanting a fuller picture and feeling frustrated about how vague everything is instead of intrigued.
Too much remains missing once you piece everything together. Have the player have to discover your story for themselves, cool. Don't make them search for every last clue to only get a slight idea on what may have taken place. Leaving a character or location unexplained doesn't make them well written or mysterious. It makes them poorly written and lazy.
>>340371760
I'm comparing it to the whole storyline. DS1 was pretty brief and vague about most worldly elements, 2 was a lot of nonsense and 3 was actually very good at, as you say, tying loose ends. Souls series is, unfortunately, plagued by being a 'series', first, and a series developed by different directors, second.
>>340370345
>game has no story
>wow so deep
>>340373965
Compare say, dark souls 3 and bloodborne's bosses:
In dark souls 3, the only one that isn't accounted for by way of lore and world engagement is the ancient wyvern.
In bloodborne you have:
>cleric beast
>bloodletting beast
>amygdala
>darkbeast paarl
>witches
>chalice bosses other than yharnam
The reason I take issue with the use of "unfathomable" even with the heavy inspiration of lovecraft themes, is that amygdala, ebrietas, rom, celestial emissary (especially at launch), being almost motivationless other than the actions of those around them doesn't make for a compelling narrative, rather it only serves for them to be interesting boss designs.
I just find the entire experience and "lore" surrounding them to be utterly mundane as a result, when all the gaps can be filled in by "unfathomable knowledge"
>>340373965
>>340373480
>this relentless usage of unnecessarily pretentious wording to pad your sentences
you're saying absolutely nothing you pseudo intellectual faggot
>>340374281
>le eldritch troof it cant possible be explained
>the story is left to be discovered so we can make shitty youtube videos and discuss our own awful fan theories online forever, so deep
no.
Why are you even comparing lovecraft's written works to this? There are inspired elements, sure, but they're not comparable. Don't make BB seem deeper than it actually is.
Bloodborne's story is a puddle. Then some fuck comes along with a shovel and starts digging. The guy accidentally hits a water pipe on his way down and drowns in the hole he himself create, praising the puddle for being so complex and imaginative.
>>340370345
Here's the age old question: Where do the item descriptions come from? Why does picking up a pair of trousers confer information on the church's nefarious deeds? Does everything in this world come with a slip of paper?
Yes it's truly one of a thing. It ties interaction to storytelling in some very clever ways. Definitely underrated.
>>340375690
A greed, most games use cut scenes, when bloodborne uses none. Using movies in game as a story telling technique is a diamond dozen
>>340375859
Bloodborne has cutscenes. It even opens and ends with one. They're uncommon sure but they're there.
>>340373591
Whats restrictive about the gameplay?
>>340375558
>le eldritch troof
You're a faggot.
>>340375684
>nitpicking pcucks
>>340375684
Why does that matter?
>>340376063
K but it doesnt have mountains of qtes like halo or mgs so its unique in mainstream games. Also you can skip them so it doesnt really count.
>>340376205
Not exactly diagetic is it?
>>340375684
It's best not to think about it, especially since some of item descriptions have an unreliable narrator or a biased opinion. See: Rifle Spear claiming it's the only trick weapon with a gun, possibly recreating a lost Cainhurst Weapon. But later you find that the Rieterpalache still exists and Spear isn't the only weapon with a attacked gun.
Maybe before the Blood Transfusion (and subsequent amnesia) our character knew all about Yharnam and funding item joggs thier memory. Or make up your own headcannon bullshit.
>>340375684
Scan Visor
Really though, my take on it those notes are for us the player. Not the character. Character doesn't know shit.
>>340370345
pretty much everything you said can be applied to souls
and after dark souls 1, the gimmick of it all kind of faded away
Bloodborne up front was interesting, but the entire use of the great ones was handled rather tamely, they never really did much interesting with the nightmare areas that they could have, and the use of higher being great ones with little to no character made them entirely uninteresting
My favourite character from bloodborne is micolash, he is also the worst boss in the series for me, but that's a different issue.
Living world feeling also isn't exclusive to any souls game, dark souls 3 does it quite well itself, with the lothric knight/winged knight war being entirely told through asset and level design placement
>>340370345
Im still finding shit out about the game today even after a year of constantly reading into it. It's surprisingly interesting
>>340371089
shoo
>>340375449
Really struggling to understand this post
>accounted for by way of lore and world engagement
So because the boss was referred to somewhere else in the game, or because you 'engage' with it, it's ok? All the bloodborne bosses pass that test. And a bunch of the dark souls 3 bosses come out of nowhere.
Can we discuss lore here?
What exactly is an Amygdala?
Bloodborne fags have gotten completely out of control ever since DS3 came out
>>340376438
That is a diegetic form of storytelling.
>>340377110
Where is the information coming from?
>>340370345
>Bloodborne is the first
You are aware that Bloodborne is coming off the heels of three other games that did precisely that, yeah?
>>340377110
You are aware of the meaning of that word, yes?
>>340376329
Halo doesn't have mountains of cutscenes, and niether have QTE's except MGS's torture escape scenes (which function the same as BB's "escape the enemy grab" button mashing). And almost every game ever lets you skip the cutscenes.
I agree with you guys, but people go WAAAAY overboard praising Souls/BB as some kind of revolutionary game that is nothing like anything before and simultaneously using hyperbole to make everything else look worse.
The same arguments about Enviromental story telling and only having a few sparse cutscenes could be made for Crash Bandicoot and how the 3 islands embody 3 stages of civilisation, the first being primitive but flourishing, at peace with nature, the second being grandiose but ruined and abandoned, reclaimed by nature, and the third is at odds with nature, fighting it with industrial expansion. Cortex's factories and meddling will one day suffer the same fate as the second island, and be reclaimed by nature, maybe even the primitive tribes on the first island will one day reach a industrial power and begin destroying nature, perpetuating the cycle.
All that "deep lore", and it does it with about 5 lines of dialogue and 2 minutes of cutscenes.
Bloodborne, and it's narrative, are great, it's one of my all time favourite games. But just because you think it's really good, doesn't mean it's objectivly the best/first/whatever. It's embarrassing and makes you look like either shills or children who can't formulate moderate opinions.
>>340377576
Souls games have the illusion of depth at least. Thats the key difference.
>>340373965
>Hang on a key part of Lovecraft's stories is the unfathomable.
As a concept. Lovecraft doesn't rely on this trait of his mythos to just pull bullshit and wipe his hands of the mess it makes.
Lovecraft uses the concept to describe the impossible geometry of R'lyeh, the brand new color in the Colour Out of Space.
Lovecraft uses "the unfathomable" to allow his readers to use their imagination. He uses approximations when describing eldritch horrors not to paint a picture, but to give your brain the colors and allow it to paint one itself.
Lovecraft does not simply say "it makes no sense because you can't make sense of it." He didn't become one of the most famous writers of the 20th century by relying on a cheap cop-out.
I would argue that you're the one who isn't familiar with Lovecraft's work.
There are things, people, events in Bloodborne's lore, as with Souls, which are left almost entirely unexplored.
You cannot say "well we just can't know!"
The idea with Souls storytelling is to, in effect, do what Lovecraft did with his imagery, but to the events of the lore. Give you the pieces and see what kind of picture you create with them.
Some events can't be made into a picture because too many pieces are missing.
>>340377515
Do you?
>Diegesis (/ˌdaJəˈdʒiːsJs/; from the Greek διήγησις from διηγεῖσθαι, "to narrate") is a style of fiction storytelling that presents an interior view of a world in which:
details about the world itself and the experiences of its characters are revealed explicitly through narrative
the story is told or recounted, as opposed to shown or enacted.[1]
In diegesis the narrator tells the story. The narrator presents the actions (and sometimes thoughts) of the characters to the readers or audience.
Each item is narrated by a particular character in the lore. The information comes often from various individuals in the BB universe.
>>340378045
You're oversimplifying the BB lore if you claim that there are elements of the game that are simply left unknown for the sake of it. You also have to remember that crafting a world is much harder than a short story or directed narrative and as such would have unintentional holes. As I said earlier, I'm not defending those holes. I'm merely saying it doesn't detract from the overall product.
>>340378045
Also, to claim that Lovecraft merely communicates "the unfathomable" on an aesthetic level alone is a gross misrepresentation of his stories. Yes, they are brief in description so your mind can "paint a picture" but there are greater unfathomable elements than mere visual sense as you contend.
>>340376846
A Great One, remember that it's a Bloodborne great one, not a Lovecroft great one, whilst definetly inspired we can't just use stuff from Lovecroft and apply it to Bloodborne.
Unlike Rom and Celestial Emmisionary (and maybe Eribritas) they arnt ascended humans or Pthurmians. Some people get caught up in the fact that there's lots of them, seemingly like they must be lesser than other great ones, since others have names. There may be something to this, but maybe not.
They are refered to as "False Gods" multiple times in offical stuff (the guide was given all the names of stuff from FromSoft), and it appears like School of Mensis worshipped them (statues and Patches, who is a member of the School. Source: Myazaki saying he admires patches for not going insane, like the other spider students, who are found only in Mensis).
They also cling to almost exclusively octagonal structures, which someone on /r/Bloodborne figured out recently. What it means? Who knows.
>>340377576
Crash bandicoot has terrific lore. Who would imply otherwise? Nobody is saying that complex = good. That's your own assumption.
The first sentence in the OP is hyperbolic and I withdraw it. I didn't expect it to cause such a fuss.
>>340378320
>if you claim that there are elements of the game that are simply left unknown for the sake of it
That's not what I'm claiming.
I'm saying there are elements left unknown
Why that happens, who can say?
Unfinished ideas?
Left out for a potential sequel?
Simply couldn't fit it in due to time?
Who knows.
>it doesn't detract from the overall product
Oh, but it does.
There is a certain appeal to "what if?" and "what could this mean?"
But there are things in all Souls games that really aren't better through their lack of information.
The continued absence of Velka lore, for instance. Always mentioned, never quite expanded.
It's hard to work with something so barren.
>>340378502
There are other things but from what I've read of him (and I'll admit it's only a minority of his work), it's definitely more common for him to use his vagueness in that way.
>>340378084
Recounted by whom?
>>340378732
Lovecraft definitely does NOT explain the source or reason for many of the supernatural entities in his stories or how they came to be. Much like BB, the characters only speculate as does the reader.
>>340378826
In many instances by the weapons creator, user or an observer.
>>340377576
>It's embarrassing and makes you look like either shills or children who can't formulate moderate opinions.
>something that is great to a person has to be toned down or 'moderated' to suit my opinions
No thanks.
>>340378084
You're misunderstanding the term.
A narrator is not Diagetic unless the guy narrating is in earshot of the stuff he is narrating, and doing it real-time (this is used for comedic effect in some comedies).
Diagetic music would be a radio present in the world. Non-Diagetic would be the OST that plays for dramatic effect. Its origins arnt in the world and the characters can't hear it.
Unless you are arguing every item has an engraved description or comes bundled with a note, then no, it isn't diagetic. The audience is experiencing something the character cannot.
>>340378872
>the source or reason for many of the supernatural entities in his stories
Things like this being left completely unexplained are fine.
It's unreasonable to think the normal people of the story would somehow figure out the explicit details of something so otherworldly.
It's interesting that BB offers as much lore on the Great Ones as it does, like the umbilical cord and how they "yearn for a surrogate"
I mean, who found out how Great Ones feel?
>>340376438
Why must something have diegetic storytelling? That's your own arbitrary requirement and if you can't experience something without it, then you best avoid most RPGs.
>>340379164
I think it's great as well, but saying its "the first" or "its cutscenes don't count because you can skip them" is just silly.
>>340379261
A lot of those details about "yearn[ing] for a surrogate" come from the speculation of the characters themselves. That particular speculation is likely sourced from The School of Mensis' discovery of Rom and/or Mergo's Wet Nurse. You sometimes get heavily biased opinions by many characters, too.
I don't understand why you give Lovecraft a pass of lacking "explicit details of something so otherworldly" yet do not offer the same to BB?
>>340379216
Thank you for clarifying the term for me.
>>340379504
>come from the speculation of the characters themselves
That information is in the item description.
Unless you want to posit that the in-world characters are the people responsible for these descriptions?
>>340379739
>That information is in the item description.
Not only from item descriptions but also from interactions with the characters and the world itself.
>Unless you want to posit that the in-world characters are the people responsible for these descriptions?
Not all the time, but some of the time yes they are. I mean, there is only so much a game can expect from its users. It can provide a library and the complete history of Yharnam for you to trawl through like a series of novels that were recorded by some historian, or it can give you important pieces of information in a simpler format. I'm struggling to understand why this is an issue? Where the item description isn't quoted directly from a character, it is otherwise presented as a historical fact of the world.
Babby's first non linear story? The ambiguous Souls storytelling has been around for literal decades
>>340380004
>some of the time yes they are
How do you know?
Who's writing them?
>>340370345
> "Bloodborne is the first piece of entertainment that has truly created a world"
Play more games boy.
And read more books.
And watch more movies.
>>340370345
>Bloodborne is the first piece of entertainment that has truly created a world
Literally stopped reading when it became obvious OP was 14-16 years old.
>>340380168
An example being the Great One's Wisdom.
>"Fragments of the lost wisdom of the Great Ones, beings that might be described as gods.
>Use to gain Insight.
>At Byrgenwerth Master Willem had an epiphany: "We are thinking on the basest of planes. What we need, are more eyes."
Who is writing the quotations down with the additional information? I assume nobody in the world. I'll ask again, why is this important?
>>340380408
>watch more movies.
What horrible advice
>>340370345
We are in complete and utter agreement here.
>>340371175
I've never seen BB and Blood Meridian mentioned in the same analysis. I agree 100% btw.
>>340381259
Apparently it's all pseudo intellectual faggotry to some anons. I'm glad someone understood me
>>340380656
OK well, let's compare Lovecraft to Bloodborne on a medium basis.
Lovecraft writes short stories.
Their primary directive is to make you afraid. It's not called cosmic horror for nothing.
While the Cthulhu mythos is an overarching theme for many stories, they are all largely unconnected.
Bloodborne is establishing a world.
Connected.
The people, places, things, events all tie together in a larger picture.
To illustrate what I'm talking about, let's say each event in Bloodborne is equivalent to a Lovecraft story.
For illustrative purposes, imagine them represented as floor panels.
Lovecraft does not construct floors, he just designs the panels. The panels are nice, and even when they're missing pieces, can be appreciated as a singular work. The pattern is still there and isn't harmed by whatever was broken off.
Bloodborne is taking many panels and attempting to construct a floor of them.
Some of these panels are missing pieces.
Some of the panels connecting to each other are missing adjacent pieces, making a hole in the middle of the panels.
Does that make sense?
>>340379164
This is a millennial thing, nothing can be too good, it's always "X is great but DEEPLY FLAWED" or "It's goof but NOT GREAT."
>>340381695
yes sir
>>340381793
Fuck I fucking typed goof instead of good, jesus fucking christ.
>>340370345
>Bloodborne is the first piece of entertainment that has truly created a world, rather than a directed and linear story.
>Bloodbournefags haven't even played what it's a spiritual successor of
>>340381695
Sure it makes sense but I disagree those holes detract from the overall product. You seem to think otherwise. We will have to leave that discussion then.
You still haven't answered my question in relation to item descriptions. I assume you characterise that as a "hole" but I cannot understand why. If non-diegetic story telling is a hole to you, then that's your personal preference and this discussion has hit a stop.
>>340381809
Is this bait with Dark Souls 2 and 3 switched from the original image or does someone actually think this?
>>340372884
Everyone always says these two games are incredible but I know nothing about them. I've never played them or even seen screenshots of them. They're some kind of puzzle based adventure game, aren't they?
>>340370345
Is this your first souls? Cuz they're all like this. You should try demon souls.
>>340381793
In fairness to the anon to whom I responded, that wasn't his point and he clarified it. Nonetheless, I agree with you. I believe it's to make a person feel better about their own potential ability to make or experience something better. It's bizarre in any case.
>>340382147
someone actually thinks this
Well that was a good thread while it lasted. Thanks guys!
>>340370746
>Lazy
If it's lazy how come there's so little games that manage to do it?
The answer, obviously, is that it's challenging.
>>340370345
>Bloodborne is the first piece of entertainment that has truly created a world, rather than a directed and linear story.
No. But you will never listen.
>>340382320
I've played them all
>>340382413
You do know that there is a Bloodborne general in /vg/ where you can circlejer.... I mean discuss the game all you want right?
>>340382435
You should read the thread drama queen
Literally just another Souls rehash.
>>340375684
Thanks. This is the dealbreaker for me. No matter what people say about Miyazaki's superior storytelling, the item descriptions knock it down twenty points.>>340375684
>>340382268
if only there was some way of finding out
guess you'll never know
>>340382517
I will not forget our adage.
>>340382472
Obviously. It takes more than a general thread to discuss a specific topic though, friend. Also I didn't contribute anything to the thread, I just liked reading it.
>>340382472
You obviously have a chip on your shoulder. There is considerable agreement and disagreement in this thread. Of course, to your mind, only the disagreement is credible because it aligns with your opinions. Typical child-like /v/-posting, though.
>>340382413
Good night mr. Shill.
>>340382570
Interested to hear why item descriptions are a dealbreaker for you. Do you feel the same way about most RPGs? To your mind, what is a way for a game to communicate the use of an item without descriptions?
>>340382472
OP here the /vg/ is absolutely disgusting. At least we have a discussion here, as much as you like to deny it. This anon nailed it: >>340382624
>>340379025
>weapons creator, user or an observer
Did the main character encounter them every time s/he found an item?
>>340382624
Well, the guy's post made it sound like he wanted the thread to become a circlejerk honestly, with that "good while it lasted". Like little baby can't handle different opinions, which is why I directed him to /vg/ since he would probably be more comfortable there. Otherwise I see no reason for his post, since like you said, people with different opinions are having a discussion here.
>>340382095
Run by me again exactly what we're talking about in relation to item descriptions?
I'm juggling like three threads and a TV show here.
>>340383051
That's alright, mate. We had a nice discussion. I'm ready to leave this thread.
>>340383031
Fair enough. I didn't interpret his post that way.
>>340382801
Sorry, I wasn't being clear. It's not a complete dealbreaker actually. It's just what put me off when people talk about how Bloodborne has excellent storytelling that can only be experienced through the medium of game.
Item description that cane out of nowhere is fine in a lot of games, even in Bloodborne. But when people say that the item description is the pinnacle of storytelling, then no.
>>340382926
No.
>>340383586
The item descriptions serve as additional material. I wouldn't say it's what drives the storytelling.
>>340383586
The item description is just light context, but it's mostly the environments of the game that make the bulk of storytelling and that's what I loved about BB.
For example, you walk through the charred ruins of Old Yharnam and you know immediately what happened to this place through what type of monsters are there and environmental clues. You walk through Cainhurst and see the ghosts and the spared servants and you immediately know that the place got seriously purged only to be left haunted.
Every location in BB has a story to tell, item descriptions and npc dialogue is just added context.
Here's a question:
How come Soulsborne games have the best writing and voice acting in English even though it's a Japanese game.
I learned English in the past 5 years and Soulsborne games always taught me new words and meanings. I remember several quotes cause of how awesome all of it sounds.
>>340385942
They invest quite a bit of coin in foreign VAs. I am not sure if any of the English VAs hail from American though
>>340383687
>>340385291
I see. That's genuinely clever.
>>340387519
they hire acting troupes
A little bit of offtopic but, has anyone found his guiding moonlight yet?
