>GoT is a show for the hopeless, cynical pessimist who thrives on negativity. It’s for those who look at their fellow human with disdain and disgust, always searching for the awful in people to emerge instead of trying to find the good. This, I have been told, is one of the show’s selling points — its ability to cast off the silly, childish goodness of Lord of the Rings and replace it with destructive cynicism. That is categorically absurd.
http://www.rantlifestyle.com/2014/06/02/game-of-thrones-and-the-nihilism-of-pop-culture/
>>72031752
>GoT is a show for the hopeless, cynical pessimist who thrives on negativity
It's not though.
It's a show for women about meandering plots that lead nowhere. If you ever heard a woman try to tell a simple story you'll know why this appeals to them.
There several reasons why got sucks, pessimistic aspects of the show/ book is not the best reason
Agreed, I feel repulsed by people that enjoy this show.
It's really telling of what sort of person they are.
>>72031752
>childish goodness of Lord of the Rings and replace it with destructive cynicism
There is literally nothing wrong with this.
>>72031752
Wow nust like real life.
>>72031752
I like when le Hobbit stole the Ring because heroes come in all shapes and sizes,
>>72031752
I'll agree the show relishes in violence and shock value more than the books, but on the whole, it is also a show that celebrates triumphant good and deals heavily in fanservice. The show is more characterized by having horrible things happen so that you cheer when the wrongs and righted and the hero's success feels more earned.
This critique is one sided and it seriously complaining that the show isn't more "silly" and "childish". Waste of my time.
>>72032000
Yes, heroes. What mental gymnastics do you have to go through in order to consider Jon Snow anything but?
>Humanity sucks because people are so cynical
Autism: The Article
>all these edgy faggots in this thread
you are all pic related
>>72031905
>GoT
>Heroes
>Wrongs
>Righted
>>72032048
yes, nobody can be a hero in got because muh nihilism, Got is so all above those simplistic occidental and problematic values anons
>>72031905
>it is also a show that celebrates triumphant good
Does that come later? I've only seen the first two or three seasons and the message I got was that being a good guy is for fucking chumps.
>When Cersei Lannister was raped by her brother Jaime Lannister, fans of the series came to the show’s defense, vehemently denouncing any and all dissenters. They insisted the rape was “necessary” and that it’s “just a TV show” and we should all get over it or change the channel. Essentially, they were defending rape in a show littered with them, because apparently, you can’t have a good sword fighting fantasy without some good old fashioned rape!
Thanks, Patriarchy.
>>72032137
It's about ebb and flow. Being a "bad guy" hasn't exactly worked out for Tywin, Viserys, Joffrey, Ramsay, Roose, Sandor, of Walder Frey has it?
The good guys succeed and they fail. The bad guys succeed and fail. If you want to pretend like there aren't moments of tremendous triumphant by the good guys in the early season then be my guest, but you know that's not true.
>>72032137
>Does that come later
Yes.
>the message I got was that being a good guy is for fucking chumps.
That's just the autism talking.
If you're not a "cynical pessimist" you're unintelligent, and that's really all there is to it. I don't care about the opinions of someone who is too dumb to understand how fucking dumb everyone is. Even 4chan, which was once a haven for people of above average intelligence, is now populated by /pol/ chimpanzees who like reposting memes.
>>72031752
well he is not wrong but i read the books and i dont watch the show
>After reading the books and watching the show, one could surmise that Martin hates humanity, wishes to see its extinction and is possibly a sexist.
Yes, because good ALWAYS triumphs over evil. ALWAYS. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a great big poopypants.
>>72032197
Shows how much the audience changed when years later everyone lost their shit about Ramsay raping Salsa.
>>72032321
>well he is not wrong
Yes he is.
what a terrible opinion and an even worse article
>>72031752
Hey I'm a hopeless pessimist and I don't enjoy western fantasy at all.
>something doesn't fit into my narrow world view
>therefore I think it's terrible and only bad people enjoy it
Left wingers, ladies and gentlememes.
>give people a chance
>97% of the time they're subhumans who watched Jersey Shore
>2.99% of the time they're intellectually curious but painfully socially retarded to the point of being insufferable
>.01% of the time someone is actually worth developing a friendship with
>ITT all the triggered edgy fanboys
>>72031752
>I think I'll write a medieval fantasy series...
>What should the main antagonist be...
>Well realistically there is no "antagonist" most people just act in self interest and their conflicts with each other only give the illusion of antagonism
>Maybe I'll just write about that
The show has a lot of glaring faults but the concept and subject matter (of the books) is solid.
>>72032559
>/pol/ tard doesn't grasp that it's perfectly okay to be "triggered" by objectively wrong nonsense like religion or some retard literally claiming evil can't triumph over good
The word triggered used derogatorily refers to a leftist or rightist SJW screaming about the skin color or gender of someone on their TV screen. Being "triggered" by the 50 IQs found on /pol/ is healthy and normal. Go get cancer.
>>72032592
>muh /pol/
Reddit leftard spotted.
>ASOIAF is a cynical look at humanity. It should be more like Lord of the Rings. That was more accurate.
Oh, you mean that story that was written as an allegory for the mass conflict wherein one group of people decided to round up 12 million other people and shove them screaming into ovens and gas chambers? Yeah, no, humanity is great. All the time. Martin is just a cynic.
>>72032197
>we should all get over it or change the channel.
OUTRAGEOUS
>>72032634
The only people that use "triggered" in an ironic sense are /pol/.
You don't have to post on /pol/ to be /pol/, you just have to have to share the anti-feminist, right wing perspective of the people that post there.
>>72032684
OBVIOUSLY YOU DONT UNDERSTAND
I can't be the only one out of all my friends who can't talk about the latest episode of game of thrones. It's such a cultural cornerstone right now that I'm FORCED to watch it even when it otherwise makes me feel very uncomfortable and unentertained.
Is the article satire? Not only is it extraordinarily difficult to be a good person, not only are people punished for being good, but all of human history is filled with atrocity after atrocity. How can someone write something so hilariously ignorant?
>>72032665
>12 million
>>72032684
This is my problem with SJWs and the left wing in general. It's not good enough to just ignore or avoid something they don't like, they've gotta ban it and make sure no one else can see or experience it, because they know how to live your life better than you do.
>>72032634
Triggered alt-right SJW fucking exposed.
Go back to your safe space faggot
>>72031752
thank god..
considering 90% of everything in the media is "good guy" winnnss or main character wins we need some yin for all this yang bruh
>it’s reasonable to assume that this does not reflect positively on society. How could it when the biggest shows on television, GoT, The Walking Dead and recently Breaking Bad, trivialize and glorify violence, death, murder, rape and unlawful, criminal behavior?
Sorry, you just shat on Breaking Bad. Your argument is invalid.
>>72032788
Ah yes, the evil SJWs trying to ban your television shows.
Meanwhile, Republicans want to ban birth rights and religious people from entering the country. But you're right, it's totally comparable.
>>72032734
>How can someone write something so hilariously ignorant?
Erm... Its fantasy for a reason
>>72032791
>muh constant media propaganda is totally the same as just one underground internet board
>>72032797
Considering that real life is 100% bad guys win
I think having 100% of movies/tv have good guys win is the yin and yang, dumbshit
>>72032785
11 million by most counts. 6 million jews, 5 millionish gypsies, gays, soviets, cripples, tards etc.
>>72032199
being an anything hasn't worked out for anybody
it's all schlock
>>72031752
This person sounds like a giant fucking pleb and that OP picture bothers me. They're right that tv GoT just revels in violence, tits and death for the sake of it but that wasn't GRRM's intention. ASoIaF is clearly actually going places and he seems to be going out of his way to make the point that all of this stuff is awful. And
>Lord of the Rings
>silly, childish goodness
fucking plebs. Literacy is wasted on most people
>>72031752
I'm not going to read the article because I don't care but your excerpt sounds exactly like me and I do or did enjoy GOT. I wish I could be a blissful normie with only pretty thoughts in my pretty head. It would sure make life easier.
>>72032955
newsflash: genre fiction is not literature
So they're complaining because the series is cynical? That's a retarded reason to hate the show and books.
>>72032987
Newsflash: >>>/lit/
>depiction = endorsement
discussing art with people who hold this opinion is like debating your dog. there may be a few hand signals or facial expressions through which you can convey some of your ideas, but at the end of the day they're lacking one or more of the levels of cognitive abstraction required to comprehend you fully. it's a completely futile endeavour.
>>72032899
>Considering that real life is 100% bad guys win
>says something blatantly untrue
>calls me a dumbshit
kek
>>72032987
Using the term literature to denote quality is an inaccurate use of the term and discredits any sort of point you're trying to make. Literature, by definition, is any written work and if you can't even manage to comprehend this very simple thing, why should I care about what you have to say regarding books?
>>72033013
thats more surely a bad reason to love and praise the show
>>72031752
Literally [pic related]: The Post
>>72033137
literally the look of the GOT "author" when he was young
>>72032987
Newsflash, I don't think so either and nobody asked you, fag. Congratulations on spending 5 minutes on /lit/. Do you plan on posting this in every single thread where somebody mentions something other than the meme trilogy until the whole internet knows how smart you are?
>>72033185
That's when fedoras were in, duh
>>72033111
Oh let me guess, you think the soviets and the americans were the good guys in WWII?
>>72033114
right, and GoT is beneath any written work, keep up
>>72033214
I plan on mentioning it in any thread i come across where people get butthurt over other people calling GoT trash
>>72033447
If you truly believe that, then you haven't read many fantasy novels.
>>72032665
>LoTR
>allegory
stop it
STOP IT
>>72033511
They're all down there with it
>>72033614
Now you're boasting about a lack of discernment as though it were some sort of virtue. Your opinion is no longer of any value to me.
>>72032665
Woah, easy there fella. Sounds like somebody has to get reacquainted with the genius of Tolkien : ^ )
>>72033658
right because genre fiction is discerning literature ok pal
>>72033805
Writing off an entire genre is the equivalent of a fourteen year old on facebook ranting about how all classical music is the same.
I don't like reality shows, but I could still watch and judge them on their own merits, because I am not an idiot. If all I could manage to do is dismiss the entire format and declare that all reality shows are the exact same level of garbage without any variation in quality, then I would be demonstrating a lack of critical thinking, and a general laziness when it comes to discussing things.
I doubt everyone here looks like a neckbeard
My friends, let me gauge /got/
>Who are you most like?
>Who do you look most like?
>>72033476
Game of Thrones is trash, but the books are a lesser form of trash by far. The show is magnitudes worse.
>>72033986
name a single worthwhile genre fiction book I defy you.
I write it all off because it's all junk
>>72034104
The prose is an affront
>>72034156
>name a single worthwhile genre fiction book I defy you.
A Song of Ice and Fire
>I write it all off because it's all junk
Well, like I said. Your opinion is worthless so this information is meaningless to me. You've thoroughly discredited anything you have to say on the matter.
>The prose is an affront
The prose is not the strong suit of the series, but it's effective at delivering the strengths of the series; namely the worldbuilding, the interconnected plots, the mysteries, the character development, far more than the poetic, purple prose you find in most lauded fantasy novels. GRRM isn't going to spend ten paragraphs describing the etchings on a Hobbit's doorknob, because he actually has things for his character to do in-between elfsongs.
>>72031905
>the show relishes in violence and shock value more than the books
Yeah, that's wrong. The books are violent as fuck.
>>72032835
The right wing parties in my country are a tad archaic, but don't assume every country's conservative parties are as completely insane as American Republicans.
>>72034664
The books are violent, but it doesn't relish in it. It's all there to highlight the horrors of war.
>>72031752
That describes me entirely and I think the show is shit. It's normie trash.
Jamie Lannister as a character refutes this, as he proves himself to have a noble soul and the urge to be righteous despite his outward cynicism.
http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423?page=4
>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
>The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3110466/Game-Thrones-creator-defends-rape-scenes-Author-says-dishonest-boring-leave-sexual-violence.html
>'But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that.
how could one man be so based?
>/lit/fags shit on ASOIAF for not being Joyce/Fitzgerald/Hemingway level writing
For fuck's sake, you retards. That's like comparing modern bands with Zeppelin, The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Hendrix. It's like comparing a modern movie to Citizen Kane or whatever the elitist fuckholes on /tv/ worship. Go ahead and dislike the books, but don't turn around with a copy of Ulysses and go THIS IS WHAT REAL WRITING IS. We fucking know, you dick pinchers.
>>The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.
>muh fat edgy relativist
Tolkien was way more highly educated PLUS he had to fight a fucking world war, I think he knew what he was writing about...
>>72031905
>le books ah always bettuh den duh movies
>>72031752
>IF ONLY PEOPLE STAYED DOCILE AND TURNED OFF THEIR BRAINS, MAYBE BERNIE WOULD HAVE WON, REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, WE ALMOST MADE IT, REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
At the risk of sounding "edgy" people are tired of bubbly faggotry.
>>72034903
The Russians raped every woman in sight during WW2. America, Germany, England and every other country targeted civilian buildings during bombing raids, to decrease morale. No fucking shit Tolkien was more educated and experienced than GRRM - but explain how this makes what he said any less true?
>>72034777
Isn't that a bit autistic? Tolkien's influences were primarily northern European myths and legends, with The Hobbit/The Lord of the Rings being outgrowths of that.
>>72034917
Not at all, I can think of several movies that are better than the books. A lot of Stephen King novels, Silence of the Lambs, Jaws/Jurassic Park, Fight Club,LOTR. Game of Thrones is just a poor adaption.
>>72035012
No, what's autistic is you thinking GRRM doesn't already know that. He's a huge Tolkien fan. Him saying that Lord of the Rings isn't realistic or grounded, isn't the same as him saying it should be.
>>72035049
>Him saying that Lord of the Rings isn't realistic or grounded, isn't the same as him saying it should be.
>>The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.
>>72034903
The entire story is about the righteous people of Middle Earth facing and overcoming the temptation of moral corruption within themselves, each having their virtue tested with the seduction of power and greed.
The thematic core of Lord of the Rings and the symbolic meaning of the One Ring can be understood more extensively in the context of the myth of the Ring of Gyges, the tale of a shepherd who discovers a magical ring that gives him the power of invisibility which he uses to usurp the throne of his king, which is described in a dialogue in Plato's Republic.
The myth is presented in Plato's Republic as a sort of thought exercise that proposes the question of whether a man when removed from all potential consequences of his actions could remain truly virtuous and moral, or if morality is only a social construct that exists due to the consequences society levies upon the immoral.
The Lord of the Rings, especially the story of Frodo and Sam, is in a way an answer to this question, asserting whole heartedly that morality and virtue do in fact truly exist within people and this virtue can overcome the darkness of moral corruption
>>72035121
He's critisizing people using Tolkien's formula instead of expanding on it. He's not passing judgement on LOTR at all, he's simply saying that it shouldn't be the foundation from which all fantasy should derive from. Listen, if you're committed to being such a goddamn retard, stop replying to me.
>>72035210
>Suppose now that there were two such magic rings, and the just put on one of them and the unjust the other; no man can be imagined to be of such an iron nature that he would stand fast in justice. No man would keep his hands off what was not his own when he could safely take what he liked out of the market, or go into houses and lie with any one at his pleasure, or kill or release from prison whom he would, and in all respects be like a god among men.
>Then the actions of the just would be as the actions of the unjust; they would both come at last to the same point. And this we may truly affirm to be a great proof that a man is just, not willingly or because he thinks that justice is any good to him individually, but of necessity, for wherever any one thinks that he can safely be unjust, there he is unjust.
>For all men believe in their hearts that injustice is far more profitable to the individual than justice, and he who argues as I have been supposing, will say that they are right. If you could imagine any one obtaining this power of becoming invisible, and never doing any wrong or touching what was another's, he would be thought by the lookers-on to be a most wretched idiot, although they would praise him to one another's faces, and keep up appearances with one another from a fear that they too might suffer injustice.
>>72034903
Tolkien may have been more educated and he may have experienced real war, but that has absolutely no bearing on how realistic the war in his novels are. If GRRM said that Tolkien was intellectually incapable of writing a realistic story detailing the horrors of war, you would have a point; but that's not what he's saying.
>>72035268
The issue is that Tolkien actually put in the work to create a fully realized world built from mythical themes and archetypes, weaving his own mythohistoric chronicle of his countries prehistory in the style of King Arthur and Camelot, Theseus and Attica, and King David and Israel.
Tolkien laid the foundation and hand crafted the structures upon it. Later writers took too many shortcuts, building off of the foundation of someone else to create worlds that weren't fully realized.
>>72035441
>King David and Israel.
>mythohistoric
>>72035509
I believe the ancient nation of Israel truly did exist, and I consider myself a son of the spiritual nation of Israel. I don't see the issue with the label "mythohistoric".
Arthur and Theseus were real Kings as well anon.
>>72035597
The united Kingdom of Israel under King David was said to have only existed for a very short time in history, some 60 years, before it was divided by civil war and eventually scattered by the Assyrians and the Babylonians.
Myth and history are one in the same when you're looking at the world of 1000 BC
It's neither. It's just a badly written piece of shit show that appeals to retards
>>72035695
holy shit thank you for that
literally no difference between a commie rally and a GOT fans assembly... disgusting edgy sheepsters
>>72035695
What is this webm supposed to prove?
Osha was a heroic character killed by a villain.
Dany is killing a room full of violent men threatening to rape her.
>>72032835
Go to bed berniecuck
>>72035822
It's a hipster bar.
Game of Thrones is massively popular, the viewership is probably more diverse and varied than whatever your favorite program is.
>>72035854
>he's not a Berniecrat
lol
>>72035835
And she's going to unleash those "violent" men upon westeros who are in for a nice little rape.
Btw, feminists look up to cersei as a relateable character. Either they're just plain ol stupid or actually horrible people
>>72031752
Maybe it's just entertaining because it has no respect for western narrative conventions as far as the mortality of characters.
It makes it more interesting that characters can actually die.
>>72031821
>mommy cucked my daddy
>>72032380
it was the same season
>>72031752
That perfectly describes the ideal show for /tv/ no-fun contrarians, though. Clickbaity website is clickbaity
>>72031752
This whole thing reads like a filthy wikifaggot who doesn't understand the anti-war and anti-violence messages from the novels.
Something I fully understand a show-only viewer not to catch, since those messages are completely vacant from the series, but as someone who claims to have read the novels... What a dense retard.
>>72035917
>tyrion
>daenerys
>sam
>>72036051
You think these characters are interesting?
>>72036051
Well the story's basically over now.
There's nobody left to kill but zombies and Cersei, so Danny can steamroll westeros.
>>72035917
yeah, lets have (((no respect for the western narrative and tradition))), totally rad man !
>>72035913
>>72035695
Why do you let how feminists perceive these characters effect how you understand these characters personally?
>>72032199
The good guys only succeed long enough for you to keep watching.
All those villains you listed lasted longer than 90 percent of the heroes.
>>72036183
Like I said, it's all about ebb and flow. Prior to the series; Walder Frey was a miserable and mocked lord, Ramsay was a miserable bastard whose father told him he regretted raping his mother because it produced him, and Viserys was a beggar prince who literally pawned away his birthright riches in order to maintain some element of power. They are villians who start at the bottom and rise to the top through machinations and plotting, They rise and they fall, just like the heroes. Jon Snow begins as a sullen bastard who doesn't even get to eat at the family table, to King of the North and Night Commander of the Night's Watch.
>>72036311
That's not ebb and flow. That's realizing that you killed off nearly every single protagonist you had and then desperately dumping as many accomplishments on one at the last minute to save this entirely directionless story from going completely off the rails.
The issue isn't with good guys losing and bad guys winning. It's that the vast majority of shit they decide to follow is people who have no clue what's going on failing in even their smallest goals. By all means, have the villains win. But then follow those villains. Don't hint at them doing shit behind the scenes or talk about shit that happened off screen while the audience is stuck watching some schmuck stumble about doing fuck all.
I've always found it to be a matter of misunderstanding when a person claims that worlds defined by archetypal forces of good and evil inherently exhibit a simplistic or naive conception of morality. I find it quite the opposite. When you have the paragons of good and evil built into a story, this allows the characters to play off of these constants and exhibit every shade of morality between the two in a more meaningful and clear way than a world where these constants are absent. It's the contrast between the manifestations of sin and virtue that bring life and color into a fantasy world.
Even Lord of the Rings demonstrates a more complex exploration of morality than it is given credit for. Saruman is the primary example of playing off of the paragons of morality within the story, as he is a character aligned with neither side, motivated by an all consuming obsession, jealousy, paranoia, self interest and arrogance, who's every action only benefits himself. Saruman as a character actually demonstrates a good deal of growth in terms of his morality, transforming from the White Wizard of the White Council into the Wizard of Many Colors in Isengard. Galadriel demonstrates this kind of moral complexity as well when faced with the temptation of the One Ring, facing the darkest shadow of herself, her vain desire to become the fire souled conqueror and Queen of Middle Earth rather than it's benign Guardian.
Even Sauron himself is given increased moral complexity when understood in relation to the paragon of evil that is Morgoth. Sauron was originally drawn to the power of Morgoth because of his belief in form, order and staunch efficiency in all things. Where Morgoth wanted to drag all of existence into oblivion, Sauron saw the power of Morgoth as the most efficient route to an ordered and industrious rule over Middle Earth free from the bumbling mistakes and shortcomings of Men and Elves.
>>72036484
The story has had a clear direction from the beginning. You just haven't caught on to it's structure and style yet. Every character and the things that happen to them has meaning in relation to the wider plot.
>>72036602
>black and white stories are actually quite complex because the characters are actually gray
What stupid tripe.
>>72036653
Having a clear end point doesn't mean there's direction.
>>72032987
>LOTR
>not literature
Pleb detected.
The best works of art have always been cynical about the nature of humanity.
Prove me wrong.
>>72036982
You're wrong
>>72037054
But that was cynical.
Am I being trolled?
>>72037074
You're wrong
>>72036656
Not all of the characters are grey, just specific characters that are somewhere inbetween the eternal conflict of good and evil. The contrast between virtuous heroes and the characters that struggle with their morality offer a good deal of depth, often as reflections of one another.
Aragorn and Boromir are a great example of this in Lord of the Rings. Boromir as a character questions the unwavering adherence to virtue demonstrated by Aragorn throughout Fellowship of the Ring, and his criticisms are not unfounded. The corruption of the Ring subverts the very best of Boromir's nature as a man and attempts to turn those qualities in the service of evil. Even the valiant war hero of Osgiliath, the champion and defender of the common people of Middle Earth succumbed to the temptation of seizing power, convincing himself he was going to take power for a righteous cause, to oppose the encroaching armies of Mordor and destroy Sauron forever, unable to realize that this desire was bringing about an anger and resentment towards the very notion of virtue itself.
In Aragorn, Boromir saw the ideal of the man he should be, and in Boromir, Aragorn saw what he could become if given to the temptation of moral corruption, both characters becoming more complex in their relation to one another.
>>72036694
Which parts do you feel are directionless?
>>72036982
think again.
>>72037054
While I wouldn't say that the Iliad is cynical about the nature of humanity, it most certainly is a tragedy, a story of the suffering of humanity full of horror and brutality levied upon characters you grow to feel deep sympathy for.
The name Achilles itself has the connotation of meaning "the lamentation of man". His story is a story of pain.
>>72037230
Siddhartha is pretty cynical about commoners for most of the novel.
>>72037188
The vast majority of the show. There's zero reason it should have taken 6 seasons to get to where they are now. But because the show occupies itself with meaningless filler, padded out character arcs, forgotten plotlines and characters, etc, the majority of this shows runtime has been concerned with very little that's actually materially relevant to where things are or where they are going.
>>72031752
Who ever wrote this is an idiot, they think their opinion is fact, when what you watch and how you judge said product is based on what you prefer personally. Sure it is not a perfect show by any means But it is especially shit when you are actively looking for something wrong with it, plus its easy to dislike anything thats popular. I like both book and show but i prefer the books, People can hate asoiaf but not me i like it.
>>72037363
>hurr durrr his opinion is stupid
>now let me tell you why it is good with my opinion.
The fucking irony.
>>72037306
I know, it's not cynical by any means. It glorifies the Trojan war and the heroes in it at first, but then ends rather abruptly after achilles returns hector's corpse to priam because he marvels at the bravery of priam and finds peace by returning his son's corpse. The whole thing is just a tragedy and about appreciating humanity and forgiveness, not the vain glory of killing.
>>72031752
>he thinks an immoral story can only be watched/appreciated by immoral viewers
This is like saying that watching rape porn makes you a rapist. Fucking idiots.
>>72037349
You're thinking too pragmatically about something that isn't meant to be efficient. The story is about developing Westeros as a whole, with the characters representing certain aspects of it.
Which parts do you feel are meaningless or forgotten?
>decades of happy endings and justice for the bad guys
>one fat guy does something about it
>people like the change of pace
>FOOKIN NIHILISM
>>72037435
Yes indeed, this emotional growth within Achilles is the core thematic idea of the Iliad. Our conception of a Hero in the modern world is much different than that of the ancient Greeks. Heroes are meant to live out the sins and flaws of humanity to their fullest extent, then suffer the consequences for them, both emotionally and physically, learning about the nature of humanity in the process and relaying that knowledge to us, the readers.
Achilles bears the weight of humanities pain, both as the one who inflicts torment upon others and as one who experiences deep, inner torment himself.
>>72037573
A Song of Ice and Fire is still about a valiant young hero who emerges in the world to face an ancient evil that has awoken at it's core.
>>72031821
Go outside anon.
Amorality has no weight in a story without morality to counterbalance it.
>>72031752
>>GoT is a show for the hopeless, cynical pessimist who thrives on negativity
what a negative thing to say about people who just enjoy a tv show...
the hypocrisy.
>>72031821
Bill why are you posting here?
>>72033323
NELSON MANDELA WAS GOOD
>>72032591
except for the fact that martin has a fundamental misunderstanding of how kingship works in fuedal society.
Nobody wanted to be king for power, really someone would only want to be a king because they felt they could handle the responsibility.
>>72034777
>fundamentally dishonest
Fucker clearly knows nothing about medieval warfare in europe.
Rape was not a widespread method of total war in medieval Europe. Martin acts like he has this realistic historically conscious world when in reality its just twilight for boys.
Not saying Tolkien portrayed medieval european ideas better, but he never once acted like he was being true to history.
Martin is such a fucking hack. He he never grew up after he turned 14
>>72034887
>elitist fuckholes on /tv/
>citizen kane
im guessing this is your first visit
Being bad is easy, being good is exceptional, that is why most fiction is about people being good. You don't read a book about some mentally disabled kid who squishes beetles with a rock, you read books about the meritorious and virtuous. At least people used to.
It say something about our society that people are so absorbed by pop culture and film that we have gotten bored of tales of the good and now actively seek the decrepit and mundane.
>>72038717
One is only drawn to Kingship if they have a vision for the Kingdom that they wish to realize.
>>72038817
Rape was used as a weapon in several medieval campaigns and it's use in the books is explained contextually.
>>72038717
Yes, people surely invaded other nations simply because they thought they could rule 'more responsibly'. Monarchists please leave
>>72037188
not that guy but much of Arya and Dany screentime felt so fucking pointless
Im pretty sure it took arya two whole seasons to get from kings landing to braavos, and Dany was in mereen for four fucking seasons doing NOTHING. LITERALLY NOTHING in terms of progressing the main plot.
And dont give me that shit excuse of she was learning to rule, because she didnt change as a character at all since episode 4 of season one.
They clearly have no idea to handle the wall. There was an army of whitewalkers in season two rampaging across the north at the fist of the first men, and despite the obvious threat they present they were never seen again until sam killed one with the dragonglass, and even then it was just one.
The Nights king fucking revealed himself in season 5, creating a fucking massive army of zombies right in front of jon snow. yet they have not been seen again affecting the plot, and Jon didnt even fucking tell anyone about him.
Season five was a near total disaster except for the hardhome battle.
Sansa's whole plotline was really dumb as well, she just kinda bumbles around and acts like shes important but she hasnt done a god damn thing on her own.
Only parts of the show that have been consistently not shit are Jaime, Tyrion, anything with the others, and Bran.
Jaime is such a great character that he gets a pass for being involved in the worst storyline to ever be shown on television (dorne in season 5)
>>72035962
Wasn't. The Jaime/Cersei scene was in S4, while the Sansa/Ramsey scene was in S5.
And the same people lost their shit, and less people tried to argue that it was the bedding obligatory to the wedding. Wasn't rape with Jamie and Cersei, though.
>>72039073
That is absolutely why they invaded.
King William believed he was the rightful heir to England, so he invaded, and instead of sitting around ordering shit around he improved the saxon kingdoms
Charlemagne expanded the Carolingian empire because he wanted to spread education and try to rebuild civilization after the fall of Rome.
El Cid saw the corruption in Valencia and put himself as King to right the wrongs.
King Vlad was a total asshole but he did what he did because he wanted to protect the people he served.
Because thats the part GRRM missed. The King is not someone who took power, they were someone who was loaned power by other nobles, who were trusted with power by the serfs who worked their land.
14 year olds need to stop trying to pretend they know what the dark ages were like based on tv shows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vnYW9Psf1o
SMASSTH THE BEETLEES SMASSTHEM
KHUU
KHUU
KHUU
>>72039185
That list is cherry picking though.
Anyways you can choose to repeat ancient propaganda, but the end result is the same whether they did it for right or glory.
>>72037573
>>one fat guy does something about it
>it's what GoT-pleb believe
