>"Bastards do not have the right to use the arms of the highborn families from which they descend. Recognized bastards who take arms (noble born, knighted, etc.) often, but not always, take the coat of arms of their fathers with the colors reversed." http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastardy#Coat_of_Arms
So, if Jon is king of the north, but is still a Snow, he will have to use the Stark sigil reversed: instead of a grey direwolf on a white background, he will use a White direwolf(Ghost, anyone?) on a grey background.
truly this has become the ice of song and fire
>>71351656
>the son of ice and fire
Really, Nolan?
>>71351623
Ramsay didn't
Bastards that are recognized can do what they want.
People with armies do what they want.
>>71351656
>>71351623
>expecting the show to have little details like that
HAHAHAHA
>>71351703
>Bastards that are recognized can do what they want.
Ramsay wasn't just recognized, he was legitimized. Jon was always recognized, Gendry never was.
>>71351623
He will find out he's a targ through Howland Reed and adopt a new banner anyway
a banner that after all these years, finally, has become A Song of Ice and Fire™
>>71351703
you're confusing recognized with legitimized fampai
>>71351623
I swear I saw this thread when I went to bed
>>71351623
they were calling him the white wolf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqYJmLVS4Ho
This scene was great.
>>71351623
>So, if Jon is king of the north, but is still a Snow, he will have to use the Stark sigil reversed: instead of a grey direwolf on a white background, he will use a White direwolf(Ghost, anyone?) on a grey background.
True, but remember that the current legitimised head of House Stark is Sansa (Brand and Arya are believed dead and/or lost) - Sansa wants Jon to be king, so she will legitimise him and he will then be known as Jon Stark, King of the North and Lord of Winterfell.
Then, at the start of Season 7, Bran will cross the wall, which will break the barrier of protection on the wall (as planned by the Night King, orchestrated using "Coldhands" as a puppet), and he will deliver a message to Jon/Dany preventing war between them.
Dany, Jon and the Tyrell/Martell rape train will steamroll Cersei/Jamie , take the throne and pardon Tyrion, who will then be lord of Casterly Rock.
They will then used their combined forces (along with the Ironborn) to fight the White Walkers, who by this point have reached Winterfell.
>>71351748
kek
>>71351623
And soon enough he'll become the scourge of the undead. Without the red woman at his side, he will succumb to the lies of the Li- I mean Night's King.
R'hllor hungers.
>>71353959
>Sansa wants Jon to be king, so she will legitimise him
Only kings can do so - and, maybe, queens. They'd have to do a switcheroo, chanting "Queen in the norf" once, let her legitimize him, and then go right back to "King in the norf". Whether this'd hold legal weight is iffy, I guess.
>>71354750
>Only kings can do so - and, maybe, queens.
See
>>71352365
Legitimacy is getting thrown out the window - if the houses of the North recognise house Stark as the royal house of the North and Sansa as its head, then by that claim she can legitimise him.
>>71354872
It's almost like I fucking said that, isn't it?
>>71354961
I was explaining that they wouldn't have to do any switcheroo business, just declare him legitimate and that'd be it.
>>71351623
Looks shite
>>71355026
But they'd have to recognize Salsa as queen, then have her legitimize him, and then view Jonboi as king. That's a bit of a switcheroo.
No one really considered Brann/Rickon "king in the north", perhaps apart from Loli Mormont. They considered Robb king. Not House Stark.
>>71354525
>Without the red woman at his side, he will succumb to the lies of the Li- I mean Night's King.
The Dark Lord Said you would come, this is where your journey ends, boy. Trapped freezing at the roof of the world, with only death to sing the tale of your doom.
>>71355196
>But they'd have to recognize Salsa as queen, then have her legitimize him, and then view Jonboi as king. That's a bit of a switcheroo.
>No one really considered Brann/Rickon "king in the north", perhaps apart from Loli Mormont. They considered Robb king. Not House Stark.
It's because of how royalty is recognised in Westerossi culture - the entire house is recognised as royalty, which is why Robbert Baratheon's brothers had legitimate claims to the Iron Throne if it could be proven that Robbert's children were illegitimate.
So, Sansa wouldn't have to be Queen, just head of House Stark as it is House Stark as a royal house than can confer status.
Theoretically, this could mean that a head of house could abdicate the crown to their heir, whilst retaining head of house status.
We could see Sansa (or later Bran) take the position of head of House Stark and Winterfell, but with Jon as King of the North.
I think the writers will cut through this, and just have Sansa/Stark Bannermen declare Jon to be a true Stark, without any dialogue on the legitimacy and everyone will just accept it.
>>71355526
Being crowned king, making the Baratheon tree royal, isn't quite the same as chanting "king in da norf" 20 times. And if it did, Salsa is already queen, because Robb was crowned king, and could legitimize Jon at her leisure.
>>71351623
Apparently yes.
He's the white wolf
Fuck D&D did good, though its obviously Martin behind it.
>>71353959
That would be so fucking shit
>rehashing the king in the north scene
>>71355860
It's like poetry
>>71355066
Wouldrallybehind/10
>>71355860
>total fucking nitpick
It was fine.
Actually, this season - apart from episode 1 - was perfectly competent. Slow at points, but it had solid episodes overall. Episode 2 was legitimately good, episode 9-10 weren't bad at all. Not perfect by any means, but no shows are. The rest was mostly sluggish filler, but competent.
A 7/10, which is a lot compared to season 4-5 which were maybe 3/10.
>>71355860
That was the point jackass
>>71355662
Well, Westeros used to be ruled by 7 royal houses, of which Stark was one.
The argument behind Robb's original claim was that the North was reclaiming this throne.
With the death of Robb (and the supposed deaths of Bran/Rickon) there was no legitimate male heir and the lineage was "ended".
Part of the agreement between the Boltons and the Iron Throne was that there would be no claim for the crown in the North.
Now, whilst traditionally the order of succession in Westeros and the North was patrilinear, resorting to male primogeniture in terms of name holders (Lady of a house holding "lordship" or the crown until a male heir can be found) when all male heirs are dead - the Rhoynar brought with them the concept of equal primogeniture, which would allow Sansa (as the only known surviving Stark) the technical right as head of House Stark and holder of Northern royal executive power (including the right to grant land, titles and legitimacy).
So, there is most definitely a claim there, but it's based mainly on the claim always being there, it just wasn't taken up for a few hundred years.
>>71355801
Do you see it happening any other way?
is he actually Jon Sand?
>>71355066
u fukin retarded?
much better than the original.
>>71356110
>With the death of Robb (and the supposed deaths of Bran/Rickon) there was no legitimate male heir and the lineage was "ended".
Women can inherit, they're just behind all the males. The Rhoynish concept of equal primogeniture is only accepted in Dorne.
With your logic, the Stark house is already royal, or remade into loyalty through Robb, and Salsa can do as she pleases.
This is kinda boring. No matter what, Salsa will have to be recognized as royalty, and then legitimize Jon. This ain't happening. We're obviously seeing the seed to a Dance of Dragons (or, Wolves) 2.0
>>71356196
His father was a Targ, so he was technically a Fyre (?, is Fyre the bastard name for Targs?).
>>71356264
You've been playing too much AGOT mod
>>71355066
Ghost/10
>>71356264
bastard names are related to region of birth
>>71354750
Father can also legitimize his children.
>>71356264
Blackfyre was a specific bastard-house. Not all targ bastards are blackfyres.
And we theorize that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married before having Jon, making him a legit Targ. And no, to all the fucking cuntlords out there, Targs are not legally limited to 1 wife, because they already shat on those rules by going hardcore into incest.
>>71356380
If that was the case, The Goose wouldn't have needed anyone but himself to legitimize Ramsay. I'm quite sure he made Tommen do it. Could be wrong though.
>>71356264
He'd be a Waters, like Daemon
>>71356471
The Tower of Joy is in Dorne
>>71356448
I think the "Why were three of the fucking seven Kingsguard including the best sword in Westeros defending the heir's whore and his bastard instead of their king or heir" argument is far more persuasive.
>>71356471
So it's Jon Waters, King in da norf?
>>71356248
>Women can inherit, they're just behind all the males. The Rhoynish concept of equal primogeniture is only accepted in Dorne.
Equal primogeniture is legal and can be accepted in the Seven Kingdoms, but usually only used by houses in Dorne.
It is just a short hop/skip/jump from male primogeniture to full equal/absolute primogeniture.
>With your logic, the Stark house is already royal, or remade into loyalty through Robb, and Salsa can do as she pleases.
Pretty much - all seven regional head houses technically have royal claims, but have not utilised them due to the issue of getting Shreked if they did.
>This is kinda boring. No matter what, Salsa will have to be recognized as royalty, and then legitimize Jon. This ain't happening.
This is AGOT - Cersei somehow has a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne and you're questioning whether or not the writers would use the Stark connection to make Jon king?
>>71356375
>>71356264
>>71356471
>>71356448
They're cultural markers and are more related to regions of upbringing than birth - however other names can be given to bastard children as it is not dictated by law and if Jon were to spin the angle of being a Targ (after being told by Bran), he could take up the name of Fyre (though more Targ bastards have taken regional names than Fyre or its derivatives).
>>71356448
I doubt he'd be able to claim they were married without a record, which would likely have been burnt if it did exist at all.
>>71356667
Doesn't matter, Rhaegar is from the crownlands not dorne.
>>71351623
They did call him the white wolf at the end
Thing is none of this name shit is gonna matter once winter is fucking up the entire continent.
>>71356679
Eh, I didn't offer an argument as to why Jon's legitimacy was plausible.
>>71356717
You keep misunderstanding. Women DO inherit in Westeros, just AFTER all the men. You're talking about the oldest woman inheriting before her younger brothers, and you correctly state this only happens in Dorne. You incorrectly think that woman never inherit at all, which is not true.
>This is AGOT - Cersei somehow has a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne and you're questioning whether or not the writers would use the Stark connection to make Jon king?
No, that's exactly what I'm not doing. I'm stating the exact fucking opposite when I say that Salsa will have to be considered queen, and then legitimize Jon.
>I doubt he'd be able to claim they were married without a record, which would likely have been burnt if it did exist at all.
Who knows what witnesses were present and are still alive. It'll have magical and symbolical meaning. Remember that whole "there's power in kingsblood" shit. Well, Jon's as fucking kingly as it gets.
>>71356717
>Cersei somehow has a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne
well of course she does, as far as anyone knows she's the last person from the Baratheon-Lannister marriage
>>71356784
>Last episode of the show everyone starts speaking Polish, Jon rails every female character in a half hour montage and consumes dangerous amounts of potions.
Also, scar over left eye.
>>71351623
I hope he stays with the Snow name, people are going to want him to be Stark and even Targaryen later on when his lineage is revealed but Jon made his name with Snow.
Plus names are cursed, Ramsay built himself up as a Snow but went down when he became a Bolton.
>>71356946
>Women DO inherit in Westeros, just AFTER all the men.
Yes, but typically as Stewards, rather than full "lords".
>No, that's exactly what I'm not doing. I'm stating the exact fucking opposite when I say that Salsa will have to be considered queen, and then legitimize Jon.
That won't happen - Sansa may end up being head of House Stark, but she will not be Queen in name.
Even if it were individual persons who were royal, and not houses, the writers wouldn't waste the time.
>Who knows what witnesses were present and are still alive. It'll have magical and symbolical meaning. Remember that whole "there's power in kingsblood" shit. Well, Jon's as fucking kingly as it gets.
True, but if there's no record of the marriage then Jon can't prove it, even if he wanted to.
Jon will want to be known as Ned's son (probably some HURR DURR HE RAYSUD ME bull) and I doubt the show will waste time on that.
>>71355911
It rhymes
>>71357194
>Yes, but typically as Stewards, rather than full "lords".
Source. I've read AWOIAF and the full series twice and remember nothing of this sort.
You seem mildly crazy. No offense, but you're not talking much sense here.
>True, but if there's no record of the marriage then Jon can't prove it, even if he wanted to.
As I said:
>Who knows what witnesses were present and are still alive
This includes written records, in case you want to be ultra particular about it.
>>71355239
>"So, you've taken up Lightbringer at the expense of your comrades' lives, just as the dark lord said you would. Your stronger then I thought."
>"You waste your breath Night king. I heed only the voice of Lightbringer now."
>"You hear the voice of the Great Other. He whispers to you through the blade you wield. What does he say, young human? What does the dark lord of the dead tell you now?"
>"He tells me... that the time for my vengeance has come."
>"What? He can't possibly mean to-"
>Jon strikes down the Night King with a single slash of Lightbringer.
>"It is finished."
>Jon turns and leaves, walking off into the northern blizzard.
>After taking his vengeance upon the Night King, Jon wandered off into the frozen wastelands of the Lands of Always Winter.
>Tormented by Lightbringers burning voice, Jon lost the last vestiges of his humanity.
>Now, driven by the sword's dark will, Jon plans to return home to Winterfell and claim his just reward...
>>71356946
>Eh, I didn't offer an argument as to why Jon's legitimacy was plausible.
>Targs are not legally limited to 1 wife, because they already shat on those rules by going hardcore into incest.
It's a weak argument we haven't had Targaryen polygamy since Aegon I and while Jaehaerys fought hard to insure the faith wouldn't butt into their incest he didn't make the same efforts with Targaryen polygamy so the legal status just going by that would be murky at best.
The fact the Kingsgaurd were there in such strength, as many as Rhaegar had and the best swords were there and not with the king, not with their brothers at the trident and not protecting Rhaella or Viserys, we were not there they said. It makes it far more clear their priorities. If this were just a bastard and a trophy wife they wouldn't have a single kingsgaurd with them, they would be with the Royal family protecting the their king and heir. At that point however they were protecting their King even though he was merely a few minutes old at the time.
Weren't any of you fags listening?
He's basically "Jon Snow of Hoose Stark, King of da Norf". They don't have to do the doo-dad to change his surname because they've already declared him leader of the family.
>>71357558
I never implied that Targ shitting on marriage rules made Jon's legitimacy plausible. I said it made it possible. What makes it plausible is indeed that 3 kingsguard protected the tower where he was born, and, in my opinion, the overall story telling. If he's just a targ bastard, who really cares? It only truly matters if he's a legit targ.
I'm not having the polygamy debate again. Targs don't care, and just because they haven't had multiple wives for a while doesn't mean they legally can't. They can legally do pretty much as they please. As they do. By sisterfucking.
Jon was legitimized by Robb before the red wedding. A Jon Stark will be King in the North and Danny will sit on the Iron Throne, and they'll fight the Night King together.
>>71357768
>Jon was legitimized by Robb before the red wedding
I totally forgot about this. However, this only happened in the books - which came as a surprise to me, and many others, because we had vividly imagined a scene like this in the show, which never took place.
So, book-wise, you're probably right. Show-wise, they want to push the conflict between Salsa and Jon.
>>71357734
>and just because they haven't had multiple wives for a while doesn't mean they legally can't
300 years and hundreds of marriages is more than awhile.
It would really come down to the maesters and the septons to decide the legitimacy of Targaryen polygamy, there is also the wrinkle that she isn't a Targaryen so it's also kinda unprecedented.
>Targs don't care
Well it's not really about what they care about it's if the realm will acknowledge the child as legitimate given the circumstances.
>They can legally do pretty much as they please.
That's given the fact that might makes right and for a long time there Targaryens had Dragons and that pretty much settled are arguments where might was in question. Maegor went on a fiery crusade against the faith when his legitimacy was in question because of the incest we didn't really have the same documentation about the polygamy issue.
>>71357295
Check the wiki.
Often despite rules of succession placing daughters directly behind sons, often cousins, uncles, etc will be chosen before daughters.
Often in cases where the heir apparent is a daughter an order will be placed in the lord's will that she marry within x years to retain the title - in these cases power transitions to their husbands (hence why Ramsay was so intent on having Sansa).
Another good example would be Catelyn's sister basically losing all power when marrying little finger.
There are a couple of other examples of female successors only existing to transfer power in the books.
>>71351623
I'm still surprised nobody beheaded the bastard for defecting the Night's Watch
>muh resurrected
>muh watch has ended
right... like anyone will believe that.
>>71358080
>300 years and hundreds of marriages is more than awhile.
So? They can do as they please.
>Well it's not really about what they care about it's if the realm will acknowledge the child as legitimate given the circumstances.
It's not really about what Maesters think. It's been established plenty of times that power to back the claim is ultimately what matters. Targs were strong enough to get their way on incestuous marriages, for instance, but not enough for the realm to suffer polygamy.
I'm not having this dumb conversation again, because I've heard every argument you have. I'll stop responding to this one.
>>71358224
Motherfuck, Lady Mormont is the heir of house Mormont. There are also examples of a man taking the name of the wife - this happened to the Lannisters.
Women inherit, just after men.
>>71358346
Exception, not the rule.
>>71358407
Women inherit, just after men, except in Dorne where the oldest, regardless of gender, inherits.
Quote me a page and line saying otherwise, or this topic is closed.
>>71358251
>So? They can do as they please.
When they had dragons, they could. After the last Dragons died they had to be more in tune with the laws of the land.
>Targs were strong enough to get their way on incestuous marriages, for instance, but not enough for the realm to suffer polygamy.
You're still missing the point entirely anon you should work on your reading comprehension. It's not that polygamy is definitely illegal or legal, the status for Targeryans is disputable, the only precedent they have to support it would be Aegon I and about a thousand traditional Targeryan marriages to dispute it, and it would fall on the measters and steptons to argue that out. Only when they had Dragons could they overrule the decisions of the whole realm.
>>71358494
I'm sorry I don't have my complete ASOIAF paperback on me, but check the wiki on the culture of succession in the seven kingdoms - even it mentions the common practice of altering lines of succession.
>>71358609
>wiki
Link me the specific page. I'm not moving a finger on this issue, because I'm right and you're wrong, and it's your job to prove otherwise, because Lady Mormont is clearly the heir of House Mormont, and Yara was also considered the heir of House Greyjoy until Theon showed up. All the talk in Dorne is also about how whatever the "Baratheon" daughter was named would be heir, but only after Tommen, and that this was unfair.
A link, or I'm done.
>>71358228
There's a ton of people to corroborate the story, plus he has the scars.
>>71354750
>Whether this'd hold legal weight is iffy, I guess.
I think the whole point of this season is that "legal" succession is bullshit.
-Sand Snakes take over Dorne, nobody cares because all the people want blood
-Cersei takes King's Landing, everybody is too scared to do shit
-Yara/Theon claim the Iron Islands despite not actually being elected, we're expected to root for them because......dragons?
It's all about force and/or who the people support
>>71358609
>culture of succession in the seven kingdoms
>Male-preference primogeniture is customary, but not binding, for most nobles.[8] A man's eldest son is his heir, followed by his second son, then his third son, and so on. In theory, the youngest son is followed in the line of succession by the eldest daughter, after whom come her sisters in birth order.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Customs
We're done here.
>>71358609
What are you talking about?
>A lord's younger brother will only inherit once his older brother's bloodline is exhausted, leaving no surviving children or grandchildren. Officially, if a lord dies leaving an infant daughter and an adult younger brother, his infant daughter is first in line of succession.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Lordship
Are you just trolling?
>>71351623
You're forgetting that in Westeros the laws are made up and the rules don't matter.
>>71358790
>Autismo, the post.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ASOIAF+customs+succession+&l=1
>>71358809
>His loyal Wildlings he let through the wall
>An up-jumped knight from a false usurper king
>Stannis' foreigner whore
>His lackeys back at the wall
>His half-brother
Not exactly persuasive testimonies.
>>71359064
Mr. Autist, I bring you:
>>71358931
>>71359020
>>71359103
The scars are still pretty good, though. Hard to explain how a man could get stabbed so many times and live
>>71358931
>>71359020
>>71359124
>In practice it is usually sons, then whoever can manage to convince the local overlord that he ought to inherit.
>>71359252
So it's almost like girls inherit, unless someone can steal their title. Almost like how we were constantly told that your swords, not your blood, secures you the throne.
We were talking legally. Technically, a bastard with superman-powers can piss in the faces of every single Westerosi citizen and be the head of every single family, because no one can stop him. Legally, however, he ain't.
Your status:
[ ] not rekt
[X] absolutely fucking rekt
>>71359042
>the laws are made up
As opposed to?
>>71359413
We're talking about actual succession in practice.
In practice daughters are often behind cousins or cadet branches and women often only hold power to transfer it to a new lord.
Just give it up already.
>>71359561
The argument started thus:
>>Women DO inherit in Westeros, just AFTER all the men.
>Yes, but typically as Stewards, rather than full "lords".
And that's incorrect. Women do inherit, as "full" Ladies, unless someone's strong enough to steal their title. Sort of like how, you know, life is. Like, your sandwich is legally yours, unless I can steal it and cuck you out of your lunch, because I'm strong and you're not.
Just stop posting buddy. You lost this one.
>>71355196
They recognize Jon as King in the North, not Sansa. As KITN, Jon could probably just legitimize himself.
>>71359150
>I can't believe a man could survive that many stab wounds so he must have died and then been resurrected using magic even the woman who performed the ritual didn't believe would work
>>71358898
in argument for the iron islands though, even disregarding the political message of "birthrights are bullshit" that D&D and GRRM obviously want to push, the iron islands always relied upon a very sketch form of democracy where, while birthright did give you a good chance, anyone with an arguable claim could win the kingsmoot by public approval.
>>71359808
Don't bother, he's a moron.
>>71356947
she literally is isn't she? gendry is a bastard and isn't jaime unable to be king because he's a kingsguard?
>>71353959
Sadly, I foresee most of that, except Sansa fucking hates Jon. Both in the show and books she doesn't think of him as family at all, and the last time she saw him she was like a naive 12 y/o that was betrothed to the prince and was too fucking good to even look at her septum.
She's already tried to have him killed once, even though it was a poor attempt. If I were to guess she's gonna try again once or twice, and she'll be much less discreet the last time she tries. She's like a totally incompetent version of Littlefinger, or a totally alone version of Dany. She has no real long game strategy like Littlefinger, and she isn't surrounded by awesome advisors/strategists like Dany.
They're gonna make her a second Ramsay;_; mfw she gives that smirk while walking out of the kennels as Ramsay is eaten, right after he tells her he's a part of her now or whatever
They're not even the least bit subtle anymore...
>>71356947
Cersei has no right to the throne as she has no lineage to the crown.
The rightful heir would more than likely be one of Robert''s cousins.
>>71360881
>She's already tried to have him killed once, even though it was a poor attempt
wot, when?
>>71361246
She didn't tell him about why she was leaving, and that the Knights of the Vale were going to be there. She hoped he would die before they got there, and more or less was like "lol sorry for not letting u kno" when she found him alive.
If she had told him, he could have prepared a much different strategy based on the Vale coming to their aid.
All of this is pretty subtle, but I'm almost positive. I've been rewatching older episodes and her facial ques (smirking/grimacing at certain times) give most of it away. Just look at her face during the last few meetings; the one where they declared Jon KotN especially. She was pissed. That, coupled with all the dumb shit she thinks about in the books (she thinks he's less than dirt just because he's a bastard and she's betrothed to the prince and "high born") makes me like 99% sure she was, and is still trying to get him killed. She's just kind of an idiot so she can't do it as well as Littlefinger.
>>71363122
I really hope you are right, but on the other hand knowing how the writing is so blatantly obvious and stripped of any nuance or subtlety at the moment I find it highly unlikely.
>>71361045
The Baratheons betrayed the crown though
>>71351623
OP I also read that thread on Reddit, nice copy paste :D
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4q1w6l/spoilers_main_on_the_subject_of_the_white_wolf/
>>71351623
>>71364107
Do we even need more proof GoT faggots are all redditors?
>>71351775
>expecting the show to have little details like that
But it does...
