Could he have won the battle without the Vale army?
Are you retarded?
>>71104462
If he wasn't so stupid and didn't charge into the Bolton Army to save his cuck brother then maybe.
No. Any non-retard could have won easily though
>>71104462
Maybe, but it would have been extremely painful.
No. He was fucked. If he decided to camp out there, Ramsay would've brought 20 good men to kill them all in their sleep.
>>71104462
Obviously yes. If he was truly noble he should have just sent his army home and soloed to Bolton army. It's not like there was any chance of him dying. Even if he got captured after killing 1000 men, he'd have escaped and beat Ramsay 1v1 before aything bad would happen. Then Ramsay's army would have joined him because
>>71104462
No. But to be fair, Ramsay depleted a huge portion of his forces by the time the Knights of the Vale arrived. So even if the Stark forces lost, The Boltons would've been left with not even half of what they had at the start.
>>71104759
>Ramsay depleted a huge portion of his forces
But why? He successfully drew out the wildlings, and he charged them with far better numbers than Stannis had against Mance and with more Good Men. He should have been able to almost immediately rout the main host.
>>71104759
This.
To add, even if Jon lost, it really would've been a matter of time before someone would've kicked down Ramsay's door. Consider what Ramsay has working against him:
>He's not at trueborn.
>The Boltons betrayed the Starks.
>Their tradition is to fucking flay people.
>Ramsay murdered his father and true heir.
>He probably would've had 2,000 men left at most after BotB.
The most likely scenario is having learned of Jon's death and Sansa's death/recapture, Littlefinger with the support of the other Northern houses, would've moved in and laid siege to Winterfell.
>>71104942
>But why?
That circle of Pikeman and whatever men he had inside Winterfell was all he had left.
No. OP
>>71105029
>But why?
But why?
>>71104462
Yup. If he used WunWun right. Not even memeing here. If they had found him armor and a sword - not even that, just given him a big log, fashioned a sling or something, WunWun could have taken out an outrageous amount of the Bolton forces before they even charged at him.
If logic had dictated that situation, Rickon would have effortlessly made it back to Jon and Jons forces could have waited for Ramsay to charge. As they were charging, hit them with arrows and stones thrown/slung by WunWun. When contact is made, have WunWun charge for the Winterfell gate, smash it down, return to battle.
With WunWun having a log or something to swipe down at Bolton forces, there's no realistic way Jon would have lost.
Seriously, WunWun is a game breaking military advantage in that battle.
>>71105140
Jon conceded that wunwun is OP and refused to utilize him properly
what an honest lad
>>71104462
There is no reason you couldn't have posted this in the general.
>>71104462
I am total war veteran, i won against larger armies than Boltons, Jon is retarded, i wouldnt even gave him my most cheapest Auxiliaries to command.
>>71105204
>Hanging around in a thread that you're moaning about long enough to read this reply to your complaint
absolutely pathetic
>>71104462
3000 vs 6000 is not an impossible battle to win
If he wasn't retarded and gave the giant a fucking weapon he could have won
>>71104462
yes he could
HOWEVER
>>71104528
this
>>71104462
If he had used actual tactics rather than pushing/shoving with half the men, then yes
>>71105140
Even better, have wun wun run around the main force and attack Ramsay's men from behind. They'd be fucking decimated and wouldn't have the presence of mind to make the crescent of death because they'd be too busy shitting themselves
the giant with armor and a tree could have killed like 3k men on his own just swinging it like crazy
Why didn't Ramsey use his spears to bulwark the horses and check their advance? He would then have had horses to menace the flanks. (don't care about meme trenches) I did think maybe he was depleting Umber and Karstark men in those exchanges so no loss really.
Without the Vale, Jon would be relying on fairly rag tag infantry. No spears, few bowmen and easily routed wildlings. His only hope would really have been some form of miraculous luck, like Ramsey falling for the trenches or perhaps if he were able to kill some of Ramsey's commanders. From a military perspective there's a reason Ramsey was so cocky so I don't see how Jon could have won.
>>71105410
I honestly believe WunWun could have still salvaged the situation even when they got caught in the crescent of death. I don't know why he was just swiping, and occasionally picking up a soldier. He should have kicked or swept across with his arm, knocking enough soldiers out of the way for Jons army to escape.
>>71105140
>Yup. If he used WunWun right. Not even memeing here. If they had found him armor and a sword - not even that, just given him a big log, fashioned a sling or something, WunWun could have taken out an outrageous amount of the Bolton forces before they even charged at him.
They barely escaped the white walkers so they only had what they could carry. The Nightswatch does not have giant's armor either.
That said I was hoping, when the shields surrounded them, that he would pick up a dead horse and would start swinging with that. It would destroy those lines completely.
>>71105140
>Yup. If he used WunWun right. Not even memeing here. If they had found him armor and a sword - not even that, just given him a big log, fashioned a sling or something, WunWun could have taken out an outrageous amount of the Bolton forces before they even charged at him.
Yeah I propose they go to the Giant Armor superstore, there's one on ever street corner north of the wall
NOW WUNWUN IS DONEDONE HEHHEEHEHE
If Jon hadn't gone full retard and charged Ramsay alone, which Sansa SPECIFICALLY warned him against, he might have stood a chance. Ramsay made a ton of awful mistakes any halfway decent commander could have exploited, hell, he was killing his own cavalry without any regard.
As soon as the Bolton and Karstark infantry surrounded them, Jon was fucked, the battle was over. Littlefinger and Yohn Royce won that battle, not Jon. It's a shame that Ramsay went to his grave as a perfect villainous Mary Sue who only won because the good guys pulled an army of heavy cavalry out of their asses.
>>71105491
That's why I said they don't even need armor or a sword. Just a big log. It also shouldn't be too hard to procure some leather shoulder pads or something for WunWun, or even to fashion a sling with similar materials.
There's just no good reason WunWun should be unarmed in that battle.
>>71104462
>should we give the giant a tree or something ?
>who care lol we are only outnumber 2:1 !
>>71104462
If he didn't get baited like a total newfag and then didn't let himself get surrounded by slow moving infantry, then maybe.
>>71105350
>>71105140
Giants actually use tree trunks as weapons in the book
But D&Dumber forgot
They have boats....
>Get the giant to swing the fucking anchor chain around
>Give the giant a fucking castle door to carry like a shield and follow him around
>>71105682
He actually did use a wooden beam to fight off the Zombies in the earlier season
>>71104628
>this picture
>mfw
>>71105744
I think you guys are overestimating the giant they had
>>71105632
>oh shit these infantrymen with huge shields are surrounding us slowly, should we charge them?
>nah let them get in formation freely, what's the worst that could happen?
>>71105536
Amazingly, despite that really being retarded, it fits Jon's book and show personality to a T.
Remember those blind moments of pure rage that would grasp Jon, especially in the books? We just saw the most unfortunately timed one of those in the entire series.
If Stannis had Jon's forces, how hard would he have decimated the Bolton's forces?
Historically most battles are won by the side with bigger army like 99% of time so no I don't think that's very likely
>>71105820
Pure rape-age
>>71105832
tell that to Hannibal Barca, who regularly raped the Roman forces when he had only half their numbers
>>71105820
He would have burned half his army because "muh bend da knee blerehghehgh"
So what was left on the field before the vayle knights charged in?
A thousand on stark side and two thousand on ramseys side.
Its like jon only lost a thousand an ramsay somehow got 4000 of his men killed.
Both ramsay and jon where shit commanders.
>>71105537
>There's just no good reason WunWun should be unarmed in that battle.
you dumb nigger retard they dont want a big fucking giant with aspergers swinging a log around taking out half their force in 2 swings.
yeah "no reason", suck a dick redditor.
>>71105832
And historically battles have been won where you were outnumbered 10 to 1
Plus Jon had a giant
>>71104462
When you have a plot armor that big any battle can be won.
>>71105799
>exhausted and maimed diverse force
>expecting of them to act like a well trained unit
WunWun was the MVP both at Hardhome and the battle of Winterfell
Nigger deserves a huge dtatue
>>71105921
Jons forces could stay perfectly clear from WunWun. It's not like WunWun has no concept of space, or spatial awareness. No reason WunWun couldn't charge through Bolton forces, turn around and attack them from behind either.
It's retarded how they under utilized wunwun
I don't believe it was over like some people here are saying, but the odds weren't good. Things would have soon reached a tipping point wherein Jon's force needed to do something desperate or die like trapped rats. I can envision Wun-Wun going fucking berserk apeshit mode and smashing himself through the Bolton line with his entire weight or, alternatively, upending the mountain of corpses to clear a path out of the enclosure.
Damn though, that episode was Spartacus finale-tier glorious. Wun Wun dying hit me hard, that relentless fucking loyalty right until the end. Fuck.
>>71105921
Imagine how easy it would be to break that shield formation if he had a log
>>71105921
>Giants are mentally retarded
Ok senpai
>>71105967
he was allowed to use the wildling women as a pocketpussy in return for his help.
>>71105963
they were still standing around waiting for boltons to get in formation and watching it happen
>>71106002
He could have just flung the fucking dead Boltons at the shield wall and decimated it
People are blaming Jon but why didn't WunEun himself get a log?
>>71105921
Giants aren't stupid, WunWun just doesn't speak the common tongue
We clearly saw two giants working in formation with other troops during the attack on the Wall
>>71105820
Not at all. Stannis had zero plot armour. He could have had 20000 Good Men, Sons of the Harpy, Sand Snakes and dragons and he still would have lost.
Wun Wun should have been armored and slain a couple of dudes and then died heroic on the battle field, that way they could still pull off the encirclement shit, But no they needed a battle ram
>>71104702
Weirdly, this. He basically knows that destiny has something big in store for him.
He should have just left his army far away and walked up to Winterfell by himself to see what would happen.
Its like when Harry Potter drank that Felicis potion.
That's literally what they put on screen, as well, with all those ridiculously close shaves happening one after the other for Jon. Crazy, crazy luck. But he used it to get 90% of his allies killed.
>mfw when Jon regrets opening up the Wall for the wildlings after all.
>Trump 2016
>>71106117
Stannis had a lot of "plot armor" (your words, not mine). He was directly in the front when Bolton cavalry annihilated his entire force and he still managed to retreat back to the treeline relatively unharmed. Not as unlikely as Jon surviving arrow volleys, but still super improbable.
>>71105832
The timing of finding this earlier could not have been better
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjLkI6y0rnNAhXmC8AKHdlwCY4QFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jhuapl.edu%2Fourwork%2Fnsa%2Fpapers%2FSmallForceTheory.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGSZFvcg1u6bTZ8t42P2qSKOsSLEQ&bvm=bv.125221236,d.ZGg
Imagine being WunWun, fighting thousands of miles away from your home, in a war with no benefit to you, with all your giant buddies dead.
>>71105832
no
wars maybe but definitely not 99% of battles
>>71106117
boltons had 5000 men when they atacked stannis at winterfell.
latter the boltons had 6000 men with the recently joined karstarks and umbers.
Stannis lost, but he took a shitload of bolton men with him.
He probably killed the "20 good men" on that battlefield.
No, but more importantly guys:
Would Ramsay have won if he had never put his army out into the open?
I played a lot of Stronghold Crusader in my youth, and so i know that being behind high walls and having archers shoot flaming arrows at barely protected men will annihilate them in minutes.
>>71104462
No, because he didn't consider that Ramsay would be willing to sacrifice as many men as were in Jon's army.
>crazy psychopath who spent 70% of his life as a lowborn has better tactics than guy who got educated as a highborn
>>71106198
Imagine being WunWun, going on Omegle, showing your massive 3 foot penis off to cuteys
>>71106198
I was thinking that the whole time. You're fighting in a foreign land for a cause not entirely your own because you're dedicated to a man that's not even your kind.
That man leads you into the most ill-advised poorly thought out battle, underarms you and gets you caught in a pike stabbing circle, fighting men you've never had anything to do with before now.
He then turns you into a human pin cushion as you charge into an enemy infested castle with only a few men, soaking up most of the abuse and punishment.
Then you die, shot in the fucking eye by an evil baddie who doesn't even acknowledge your status as a mythical giant man.
WunWuns death wasn't even a glorious heroic death on the battlefield. It was the one final act they gave Ramsay to up his edginess factor to the audience.
>>71106180
His army had to die and Brienne had to kill him. D&D don't care about the details.
>>71105140
to be honest, wunwun was the only advantage point of jon army. the only siege machine able to destroy the gate and thus force ramsay to attack on the field instead of camping behind walls.
jon should have moved wunwun with a good log on the side of his formation to break a surrounding army momentun, while ramsay main objective should have been to kill the giant, as he was the only reason to march against him instead of waiting inside winterfell
>>71104462
maybe if he wasn't mentally impaired
>>71106238
It's explained, Ramsay can't show weakness to the other lords, and needed to crush Jon's inferior force in the open. But yes a siege would be 100% better
>>71105280
I have over 2600 hours of game play on medieval 2 total war alone.
I wouldn't even let Jon be in my army
He should have retrieved rickons body. Return to the infantry and say ok lads one of you take him to the red woman! Now hold this position!
>>71106293
I don't think his tactics were better. He just has more men with better armor.
The wildlings don't have fancy armor and shields. They even commented that they're weak against people on horses.
Not Jon's fault.
>>71106340
>sound military strategy is weakness
good point
>>71106315
>while ramsay main objective should have been to kill the giant, as he was the only reason to march against him instead of waiting inside winterfell
I honestly thought they were gonna have some soldiers with nets or rope to try and trip and bring WunWun down, with the intent on taking him down first.
But no, both sides failed to acknowledge WunWun's existence on the field. Bolton soldiers took no special measures in fighting him, and it's a good thing too because he didn't do shit against them.
>>71106340
It's nice that they at least try to explain it so the show can have their big epic battle but nobody in the North would think he was "weak" for doing the smart thing and defending the castle.
>>71105491
They could have made him an armor in Bear Island or some other house. Doesn't need to be a proper armor, a chain mail would already have helped a lot.
>>71105140
Yeah no.
If Wun Wun tried to solo Winterfell with Ramsay's army inside then he's getting the oil, as well as literally 100x as many arrows. He wouldn't make it through.
Jon's men couldn't storm anyway, because they were outnumbered.
Their only chance (without the Vale) was fighting in the field, and Jon had his plan with the trenches, but still pretty much expected to lose.
Armoured Wun Wun might have helped big time, but he's essentially just one of Pyrhus' elephants, and the Romans btfo those.
>Give the giant weapons and armor
>Dig trenches like you fucking said you would
>Don't charge like a retard trying to save Rickon leaving yourself open
>Keep your backs to the cliff and not let yourself get surrounded
Why is this so hard?
>>71106396
Their words not mรญne, But since the bolton had 2x the larger force than jon (and jon having shitty wildlings) it seems like a clear win so why wouldnt he
>>71106298
>Imagine being WunWun
Ok I go and rip out a FUCKING TREE and don't go into battle unarmed
>>71106363
He'd have so many hit points as a general he could solo most the enemy army.
>>71106463
>not stealing a ship anchor and using it as a fuckhuge flail mace
The sight alone of that would have scared half the Bolton army
>>71106238
Ramsay is despised; his only claims to the obedience of his subjects are fear and pain and ruthlessness, as Davos mentions. To hide meekly behind a wall as a force half the size of his own bravely fights for a home that rightfully belongs to them would see his position deteriorate quickly. Northerners would start to see Ned in Jon and dissent. I'm sure some people see it as a plot convenience, but no, it makes perfect sense. Ramsay really did need to cement his status as Warden of the North by crushing Jon and Sansa, not merely outlasting them.
>>71106437
>If Wun Wun tried to solo Winterfell with Ramsay's army inside then he's getting the oil
Didn't happen when he eventually charged through Winterfell. Ramsay still head enough men in there to fight, as he started trying to prepare them for a siege. WunWun broke right through, soaking up tonnes of arrows.
Even if WunWun didn't make it back to battle, he would have broken through to winterfell and slaughtered plenty of bolton soldiers on the way there, enough to even the odds a little bit.
Even without the plan to rush Winterfell first, WunWun with a log should have tipped the battle in favor of Jon just enough that he could realistically win.
>>71104462
see
>>71106186
>https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjLkI6y0rnNAhXmC8AKHdlwCY4QFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jhuapl.edu%2Fourwork%2Fnsa%2Fpapers%2FSmallForceTheory.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGSZFvcg1u6bTZ8t42P2qSKOsSLEQ&bvm=bv.125221236,d.ZGg
> In fact, contrary to popular belief, the smaller side in battle prevails more often than the larger side.
>A recent review of 481 engagements found that the smaller side won 56.5 percent of the
>contests. Only 36.4 percent of the time did the larger side win, while in the remaining
>seven percent of battles, the sides fielded roughly equal numbers.
if only we wouldn't need much stonk womyn then he would have won
>>71106437
In a siege situation you are best advised to use Wun Wun as a balista on crack, chucking giant arrows at the ramparts decimating the defenders
>>71105832
You should see Manzikert 1071.
Turks raped Byzantine Army 3 times their size.
Greatest military victory in history along Cannae and Austerlitz.
>>71106522
it makes sense but didn't need to be the main driving factor behind the decision, especially because ramsays character actually seems one to not give a shit what people think
>>71106396
Well, people have a tendency to be retarded and disregard sound military strategy for muh honour or muh chivalry
I mean look at the battle of Muret
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Muret
The King of Aragon had a much much larger force
He could have weakened the smaller, but better trained force using arrows and things like that, as was adviced by his brother in law
The king decided to fuck all that because of muh chivalry and glory and charged head in
Nigga got killed, his forces then panicked and routed and got slaughtered
20000 to 1600 lost
Casualties for the Aragonese were around 15000, casualties for the Crusaders were 8
People are drooling retards even in war
No -
In the books, Sansa is likely to come riding in from the Vale with the Arryn Army to save the day
So the show had to have them arrive without Jon knowing - the tradeoff being that many will question why Sansa didn't tell Jon they were on the way since Sansa was with spending time with Jon on the show
>>71106622
>Manzikert 1071.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sisak
Ahem
>>71106650
>posting an interesting historical tidbit
nice post, I enjoyed it a lot
>>71106084
under rated point
>>71106675
Makes sense. They could have gone a different angle in the show, though. Made it more interesting. Imagine if the battle was going terribly, seemingly hopeless with Jons army hardly advancing at all, only for it to be revealed a ruse to hold out for the Vale army to arrive?
Woulda been more satisfying imo
>>71106629
Again though, it's not about what people think but rather about the very real power behind what people think. On a related note, I find it really awesome how influential Ned is despite surviving only one season/book. In the context of the show, it really speaks to how great of an actor Sean Bean is and how perfect he was for the part. Ned's ghost is always sort of there in the background in northern scenes. It's great.
>>71106691
Youยดre welcome
Some battles went so terrible for the larger force it's almost kek worthy
It's like pressing auto-resolve in a total war game, only to see your fuckhuge army getting fucking wiped
>>71106743
No, I know. I mean, Ramsay seems like the person to disregard that aspect, for better or for worse.
I just think having an extra scene with Ramsay talking to some advisers about the situation would have helped. Have Ramsay mention the giant and say that it would make a siege easier, so they should meet on the field.
You'd also eliminate the problem of everyone pretending WunWun is just a normal occurrence.
>>71105497
Seriously? They could just make em out of wood desu it wouldn't even matter. Just some shit to keep arrows from penetrating him too much, he's the last of his fucking kind and they just let him die.
Historical battle time?
>>71105497
Stich a bunch of horse saddles together and slap them on his shoulders. Patch some leather across his chest - anything but rags, man.
>>71106879
Honestly with his physique the arrows stuck in his back would do no damage at all, his head was the only vulnerable part
>>71106650
> King Peter rode to the front line, forsaking his royal armour for the plain armour of a common soldier.
>He cried out, "I am the king!" but was killed regardless. With the realization that their king had been killed, the Aragonese forces broke in panic and fled, pursued by Montfort's Crusaders.
This entire episode might be the most hilarious blunder in recorded history
>>71105832
germany almost won ww2
>>71106650
Hey quality post man, I like seeing shit like this.
that giant guy wood have done better with some kind of log
>>71104462
If his giant had torn down a tree on the way to the battlefield, yes.
>>71104628
Uhh, you don't get to bring reinforcements
DESU tactics being shoddy aside, the actual visual impact of the scenes I thought was pretty phenomenal.
>>71107229
I liked the spear and shield combo
Don't see that enough in combat scenes
Which is weird, because it was the most common weapon
>>71107229
It was fucking brutal. Jon Snow reborn coated in mud and guts and barely recognizable, surviving through sheer luck and force of will.
>>71107354
Funny how the Vale army arrived after it looked like Jon died...
Funny how Sansa told Jon to just forget about Rickon...
>>71107354
The best part is it felt like luck, I don't know how else to describe it. Yeah "plot armor" but watching it, I felt like Jon Snow got REALLY lucky rather than he was kept alive by writing.
It's interesting how well directed this episode was despite tactical things being weird.
>>71107229
yea, the only thing i didnt like was when jon hitted that horseman and the poor guy just fly off the horse
>>71107354
>>71107476
Such is war right?
Luck is a very deciding factor in surviving the battlefield
>attempting to manoeuvre a phalanx on rough terrain against a force of agile swordsmen
Ramsay would have been btfo
>>71107474
I got sort of a different feeling. Given that Jon and Melly talk about the Lord of Light, and Mel brings up that R'hllor brought him back for a reason.
From the way it was shot, with all of those arrows pulling a Pulp Fiction, it really looked like Jon was some kind of Achilles.
No lol.
In real life, whatever he did in pitched battle his wilding rabble would be annihilated.
What he did was actually half-smart, if only Ramsay didn't expect him to do that.
Just get them psyched and charge, preferably downhill, it might surprise the enemy. But they would still be annihilated.
Outside of guerilla warfare setting, professional troops will always annihilate armed rabble.
>>71107544
You're right, Jon being placed into this savior/hero role was well shown in the scene. I think my thoughts come from how GOT is supposed to be more realistic in "what would happen" scenarios and applying that to how Jon survived the brutal chaos of the battle.
>>71106622
t. historically illiterate Turk nationalist
Manzikert was catastrophic because of what followed. In battle Byzantines didn't even suffer many loses, a large part of the army simply retreated.
>>71107476
magic sword anon.
>>71106650
JUST
>>71107663
Perfectly valid line of thought, and probably what most people in-universe would think as well.
It could also (and this is giving D&D far, far, FAR too much credit) represent how these sort of myths, heroes, and religious figures start in the first place: luck and improbability mixed with charisma and courage give birth to supernatural thoughts is people's minds.
Jon easily could have just survived that battle due to luck, but what if that keeps happening? Will the "they think you're a god line" turn out to be foreshadowing for the North or Westeros as a whole?
And to think this would have been avoided if Mance had bent the knee.
>>71105280
You call that a phalanx? Enjoy getting your shit pushed in by Macedonians with their 20 foot sarissas.
>>71107866
this, there would have been 100.000 wildlings to help defend the wall.
And for a quick stop at winterfell to rape the boltons.
>>71105902
muh elephants
>>71107474
The unique thing about it, which I thought was really cool, is that I bet everyone had this parallel thinking between chance and fate as each successive volley of arrows missed Jon and the Boltons going for his back were cut down just in time. It was perfect that they included that scene with Melisandre because it contributes to this internal debate as you're watching, questioning whether it's luck or if he's simply fated to survive. It gives Jon this other-worldly presence, where's he's potentially a literal warrior of God. But at the same time followers of the Lord of Light have been wrong as fuck before, so we really don't know. Fucking awesome.
>>71107866
>bending the knee to a retarded crazy king who burned his own daughter at the stake and marched his people to death
If Roose was still alive could he have tactically masterminded the battle to be over in 3 minutes rather than lol lets shoot at our own men
>>71105902
>Jon Snow
>measuring up to one of the greatest military commanders in human history
why even leave winterfell? jons forces had no siege weapons besides the giant
I see the ''frodo eagles'' argument is reincarnated in /GOT/
>>71108137
>>71105902
>meming a general who eventually got defeated and slain.
>>71108182
tell that to the proud nation of Carthage
>>71108182
>you're only the best if your reign as the best never ends
what
>>71108154
There were a shitload of eagles and only 9 wraiths. Theey coulda flew the ring to Mt. Doom and ended the whole shebang in like 20 mins. Just sayin.
>>71106563
That paper was shit though.
> most battles were won by smaller forces but I don't have a citation for that
> some other guy said 80% of the time the larger force won but nuh-uh he's wrong because I said so
> a combination of super heavy cavalry used as meat shield, infantry to stall Persian advance, and Hunnish cavalry to break the other guys won the battle. This clear example of combined arms being deployed is the perfect example of why combined arms isn't as important as my original pet theory.
Yeah I mad. Fucking REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
>>71105280
>spearheads clipping through shields
absolutely haram
>>71108096
That battle had all the shitty tropes of battles in movies , that took away from what could have been a great scene.
>>71104528
>>71105395
That actually helped him. Ramsay just sacrificed his superior cavalry by spraying them with his own arrows in hope to hit Jon.
>>71106929
>Belligerents:
>Soldiers of the Habsburg Monarchy
>Other Soldiers of the Habsburg Monarchy
maximally-elevated kek
>>71104628
>airplane necklace
Hah
>>71106929
Having extra 100 cavalry can do wonders
>>71105280
What are the best total war games, someone make me a top 3 so I know which ones I have to buy.
>>71105140
This.
Anything large would have made a perfect weapon. A door sized shield and a fucking club would have been enough to make wun wun the deciding factor.
Armor wouldn't have been complicated either. They could have chopped a few trees to make the shield, club, and armor. Yes wooden armor since it all has to do is stop arrows.
>>71108182
Hannibal only lost because he was betrayed.
>A Roman army led by Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus (Scipio), with crucial support from Numidian leader Masinissa, defeated a Carthaginian force led by the commander Hannibal, despite Hannibal possessing numerical superiority. This was because many in his army were recent conscripts, and the vaunted Numidian cavalry which Hannibal had employed with great success in Italy had by then switched sides to the Romans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zama
>>71108755
Fall of the samurai, Rome 1, Medieval 2
So how big was wun wun
>>71104528
Stop saying cuck you fucking moron.
>>71108881
You can see why they were called the dark ages.
>>71104462
He couldn't
He would have been foooooked
>>71107780
Damn dude turks were god tier at strategy your just mad because euros are cucks and trash at fighting
>>71105908
Seemed like he had more cavalry than anything,which he proceeded to kill all of with his own archers. Looked like Jon only had a couple hundred men left to me.
>>71108755
Shogun 2, Napoleon, Rome 1, Medieval 2, gives you a selection of ages, be warned rome 1 and medieval 2 are a bit old
>>71105921
I figured no one bothered to talk to wun wun and tell him he should grab a fucking tree, or they did and he said fuck it I'm going to fuck with these guys by ripping them with my bare hands.
>>71109052
>e warned rome 1 and medieval 2 are a bit old
still the best
>>71104628
thats a big horse
>>71106929
sure thing
>>71108075
Stannis hadnt burned her yet.
why didn't Rickon zig and zag?
why was the ramsey fight reduced to a bow and arrow? Against the Iron Islanders he went psycho with a couple of hatchets.
If the Onion Knight hadn't charged he could have whittled down the flanking Umbers.
>that's what happens when a man with no fingers commands bowmen
Wildlings, tribal warriors brought up in constant conflict and infighting, are indistinguishable from northmen in combat. Those attempts to break the shield wall were embarrassing to watch. Where were the berserkers?
That longshot with the counter cavalry charge was pretty awesome though.
>>71108904
for you.
>>71104462
Davos could've surrounded the bolton circle with the archers from the outside if hed have stayed put. hindsight i know but, arguably.
>>71104462
No he's a terrible leader.
>>71109695
>why didn't Rickon zig and zag?
he did the right thing senpai, he got way out of accurate bow range, just got shafted by ramsay's bullshit
Quite possibly, but he shat the bed. He effectively failed to hold any control over the battle, and knew full well that Ramsey would try to bait him. Rather than use this to his advantage (or the fact that Ramsey failed to conduct any recce) he just lost his rag.
Davos fucked up just as badly though, by failing to use his reserve to flank them once Ramsey's men were commited.
>>71104462
He could have cucked Ramsay by having the giant wear armor/shield and wield a tree trunk with a spiked wagon wheel wedged into it. That was the one thing Ramsay did not have, a fucking giant.
>>71104462
If he would had stuck to the plan and (I cant belive I am typing this), LISTEN TO HIS FUCKING SISTER ...maybe
>>71110439
Once he made the distance he could have avoided single arrow easly just by dodging it, because of arrow lags tho
it's pure Ramsay bullshit again. If he released his hound after him it would make more sense
Even in open field Ramsay had a larger force of archers and could have easily pressured them into attacking, as the wildlings had no shields or armor to speak of. So from that point a charge would make sense imho.
>>71110265
not Hannibal Buress.
Some nigger deleted the thread with Mia in it, so I'm posting this here since I spent 5000 hours in MSPAINT slapping it together.
>>71111594
There's a difference between attacking and mindlessly charging. He could well have launched a night attack on Ramsay's camp rather than waiting til dawn. He had a large number of wildlings who would have had no problems with that sort of op
>>71112666
What if Jon pulled a Theon?
DABID
DABID
CLOSE RANGE ARCHER FIGHT DABID
>>71108755
avoid warhammer because it s shit made for autistic kids that can t play totalwar
No. If the shimmy shimmy conga line was faster at closing in on them they wouldnt have won at all. Thank god they had plot armor on their side though.
>>71106363
Why not? He would make excellent cannon fodder with his special abilities: immune to arrows, headbutt that doesn't connect
Why the fuck did Ramsay order his cavalry to charge instead of waiting for Jon's cavalry to get get to hin therefore leaving a good mile between Jon's cavalry and infantry?
>>71108688
it's the little things
>>71108910
fuck off cuck
>>71109267
>Saxon cucks
no surprise there senpai
>>71105280
>give john shitty small army
>send him out on impossible battles
>wait till he gets killed
>bum ghost
>>71106385
Could still happen
>draw out Ramsey with 2/3rds of your forces
>As they're engaged have wun wun take out the gate and take the castle with the other 1/3rd
>Withdraw what's left of the 2/3rds from the field, through a booby trapped forest if need be
>Harass Ramsey from both sides as he tries to retake the castle
There, I just won the battle of the bastards with little to no losses.
>>71115574
Your not taking into account losing your shit and ignoring the plan when your brother gets killed.
>>71115639
And that's why there was a mountain of bodies. Should have listened to Sansha when she said Rickon was good as dead.
>>71108931
WE WUZ KINGS!
>>71112480
You're a fucking idiot.
Where the fuck was Ghost in all of this? Imagine a giant and a huge ass wolf
>>71104462
If he was an actual experienced military leader and was able to choose the battlefield then probably.
>>71115574
How would they get around without ramsay seeing 15000 men, didn't have any equipment to break throughout he castle gate, okay the giant but by time they'd got there they could see him from a mile away, again proving my first point. Also withdrawing 2/3rds from the field. How could they? by the time they would have took the castle, and hopefully wouldn't have already been spotted Ramsey would have already been warned the castle is being attacked and the 2/3rds would have already been surrounded like it did in battle. And so they wouldn't have been able to harass Ramsay from both sides
>>71115783
Ghost would've gotten Summer'd
The real question is, could have Ramsay won the battle if he had his 20 good men present?
How strong is one good man? 1 good man = 100 regular soldiers?
>>71115783
Imagine the CGI cost. There's your answer.
>>71106002
He was using his arms too much, a swift kick would have destroyed the formation. I wish that happened amd have the Vake knights show up after the battle, but I guess Sansa had to be the hero.
>>71104462
Easy - just arm the wildlings with Thoros' patented shitstick....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsXB9AK58So
>>71105140
Even if Wun Wun had just jumped on the soldiers crushing them. Once you make an opening in a phalanx it becomes useless, and having a giant would make it ridiculously easy to do. I guess you could have argued that Wun Wun is actually a pussy who was scared of spears, but that last bit rushing the castle kind of invalidates that.
>>71104462
Possibly, 2:1 isn't insurmountable especially with a giant on your side. But it would have been a hard fight.
>>71105140
You know historically people have used elephants in battle and the opposition did not have any problems killing them, a single giant is not a game breaking advantage
>>71115916
They had the whole army of the Vale sneak up on him, you think having ~700 men and a giant storming the gate is unfeasible? And the only reason they got surrounded in the first place was because they rushed out.
>>71116375
That's a retarded comparison, and you even know that, so stop it
>>71116144
He could literally grab every pike infront of him and toss them behind him like twigs, he could have done so much more but he didn't because Sansa had to be the hero.
>>71116375\
You know elephants are animals and can't use weapons right? A charging elephant is every bit as dangerous as a charging giant of the same size, but the difference is that the elephant wouldn't know that charging isn't the best idea.
Wunwun should have easily tipped the battle in the wildlings favor.
Having no weapons, or even really an tactics other than "grab a solider one at a time" is the only reason the battle was even close. Wun Wun should have been throwing dead horses at the wall. Or maybe he could have made one of those huge bows they attacked the wall with.
You know, the ones that they were able to shoot thousands of feet into the air, that instantly killed anything it came into contact with?
Yeah. Wunwun was underused by these shit writers, what else is new.
>>71104462
These fuckin threads:
>Let's discuss what should have went better in a fictional battle in a tv series
Delusional cunts.
However, why didn't Rickon zigzag?
>>71116612
That wasn't part of the game.
>>71116589
>he doesnt know about elephant swords
>>71116612
>Fucking idiots discussing why characters didn't do something
>But what the fucks up with one character not doing a certain thing?
>>71116375
Did they train their elephants in the ancient arts of Kick Ass?
>>71116436
Yeah but they didn't know that army was coming and by time they would have took the castle which they would have quickly lossed as they had no door after the giant would have destroyed it Ramsay would have quickly sent half if that of his army to take it back and maybe have also killed the army in the battle quicker to get back quicker to the castle. and if he was to send half of his army back to the castle he would still outnumber Jon's army. There for the wildlings would be raped by reeks little pork chop, then the army of the vale would have got there after jon snow is dead and that army defeated and confront Ramsay with his army regrouped and then I don't know who would have won that battle
>>71116701
>implying an elephant could beat Ramsey in 1v1 sword combat
>>71116739
>In India and Sri Lanka, heavy iron chains with steel balls at the end were tied to the trunks of war elephants, which the animals were trained to swirl menacingly and with great skill.
>>71106315
>as he was the only reason to march against him instead of waiting inside winterfell
Nice job watching the show. They said that Ramsay had to meet them on the field to prove himself as a northern king; hiding behind the walls wouldn't look to good.
>>71116758
How long did it take wun wun to break open the door? 30 seconds? And they didn't touch this but winterfall canonically has a moat and a double wall thing. I can suspend my disbelieve saying they didn't raise the drawbridge because they were too rushed, but if we go by that then we can assume they had it lowered during the battle to insure a quick escape if needed. So it's a matter of rushing the gates and raising the drawbridge before Ramsey can notice and react.
>>71107065
>germany almost won ww2
Literally smothered to death by millions of Russians with no strategy besides outnumbering
>>71117032
i assumed ramsay/roose didnt have time to rebuild the metal gates after theon lost the castle and so just had wooden ones rebuilt in time
but yeah probably just shit writing for the sake of advancing the plot
>>71116738
Being this dense, go away summer.
>>71106084
the answer to both is D&D are fucking retarded
>>71117157
They gave up the castle no fighting took place and must have never metal gates
>>71117032
Ok and so proving my point that ramsay would have quickly killed off the army and rushed back to take the castle, after all the giant didn't take much to be killed and Ramsay could have quickly sent his cavalry to get their as soon as he new
>>71105447
Shields indicated they were Bolton, but other than that I think it makes sense he would deplete his allies.
His allies are mostly old stark allies... =,D
>>71117451
Fuck off you're what's wrong with life
>>71108910
Hey there Mr.Cuck
>>71105921
>tamed a wooly mammoth to walk in an army full of people wielding fire
>>first person to set the army line, raises his staff
He's clearly unintelligent.
>>71117874
correction: it's his bow.
>>71108881
Looks a lot comfier under AS rule desu.
When will it stop?
>>71109052
>Shogun 2
I've heard people praise it many times, I bought it over a year ago in a Steam sale...still haven't touched it.
Yes if Wun Wun had a actually weapon and a mammoth to ride on like beyond the wall, totally.
>>71105140
All he needed was some chain mail fastened together, or just more pelts, a door for a fucking shield and a big ass log. He would've taken down hundreds of Bolton soldiers.
>>71104462
if this happened: giant kicks away the fools in front of him, then tackles the entire shieldwall line like a boss
you know instead of standing there
>>71119305
#starklivesmatter
>>71105921
Epic troll
The giant is dead :ยด(
>>71106385
I guarantee you the Lord of Light wants nothing to do with Rickon, hell, even Sansa didn't give a fuck
>>71108260
"Eagles cannot be trusted with such power!"
"CAWWW!"
Yeah if they'd given the giant a fucking sword and some goddamn armor.
>>71105497
The Mormonts don't have blacksmiths?
>>71105140
But WunWun was also retarded, he could've used people as a weapon.
>>71104960
he probably wanted this desu, that wouldve meant all the glory going to him alone, not sansa or jon or whoever. he'd be renowed and have so much more political power than he has now as just the guy who helped
>>71108904
15 ft thereabouts
>>71117874
thats not wun wun thats mag the mighty, king of the giants, he died in the tunnel
>>71115574
ramsays army was literally 100 meters away from witnerfells gate, and there are no trees within a mile and half of winterfell. youd have to get roughly 1000 men across 1.5 miles of open field without being spotted. thats just not gonna happen, to engage you ramsay would simply have to bring his archers to the rear and volley at you, youd be decimated within 3 or 4 volleys, if you dont routh hed send his cavalry in and thats bye bye for you
even if jon charges at the same time he has enough infantry to make a solid pike wall and jons calvalry isnt big enough to break a wall that strong.
you will be spotted as soon as you engage witnerfell, and because the lookouts will see the 1000 men coming theyll put up a good fight, so even with wun wun you wont get in quickly
ramsay has enough men that he could split his force to engage you and keep pressure on the retreating main force, simply send the umber forces back to support winterfell
now its 2000 properly trained loyal umbers vs less than a thousand undiciplined wildlings and 1 giant
and ramsays 4000 bolton and karstark men vs the retreating 2000 wildings.
I reckon ramsay would not pursue into forest, hes smart and knows that a forest is the worst possible place to march your army through if you arent 100% sure its safe.
he'd pursue you to the edge of the forest then simply call off the attack and allow you to retreat,
he'd go back,reinforce the umbers and wait for jons army to return,
he'd get back winterfell fairly quickly (wildlings know nothing of siege tactics and will surrender as soon as they see they have all the bolton forces besieging them)
now you've lost 1/3rd your army and the enemy now knows exactly what forces you've got.
>>71116612
>a young teen
>been getting beaten locked away, poorly fed for weeks
>tired and barely thinking straight due to lack of energy
>scared as fuck
>no combat training or tactical training whatsoever
>expected to know missile avoidance tactics and apply them at the flip of a coin
>>71108728
Holy shit.
That's a solid ass kicking
>>71116139
>implying a giant fights like a big guy
> imply a giant ant wouldn't collapse under its own weight
