Iron Man did nothing wrong.
Superheroes should be bound by rule of law.
>>70182098
That's right. Everybody follow the rules and due process except ironman, because his mommy is dead.
Iron Man is like a dad or a boss who wants the best for everyone else, knowing that you sometimes have to follow the rules and can't do anything you want all the time because there are consequences.
>>70182098
No one on earth would possibly be cool with a bunch of maniacs beating up citizens and violating a country's borders bexause they felt like it
This has always been a dumb comic book story line
>>70182150
You read that op?
What about this?
What about him trying to murder someone? Doesn't the rule of law apply to spoiled little rich boy?
What about firing a missile at your own friend and nearly paralizing him?
Iron Fail is more like hurhur
>>70182423
but muh picture books
Iron Man was right but it didn't actually have anything to do with the argument they were making. of course people died when fucking aliens invaded New York. that was so stupid
it's more because the Avengers are a predominately American organization and shouldn't be traipsing around the world unchecked
>literally save humanity from death or enslavement by motherfucking aliens(which is the first time they showed up, ever)
>people try to make things harder by adding layers and layers of red tape
All 7 billion people should suck their dick 7/24. Not force them to retire because they don't wanna take orders from some politicans that might as well be Hydra agents.
>>70183752
>invade other countries without regard.
>don't inform those countries of threats (the team in Lagos didn't even inform the local police, who they believed were the target of the next attack).
And Caps reasons for not signing were bullshit. "What if they won't send us? What if we don't want to go?" Well then you could still break the law, and not tear the Avengers apart and become outlaws preemptively over some hypotheticals. Literally, signing the last time Tony tried to compromise would have solved everything.
>>70182098
It would just take 2 avengers level tragedies that would make the UN rethink their problem. They would end up making a chancellor who has authority to send them out. They would end up making a support staff. Eventually it would become shield 2.0 Eventually the avengers would become the world police and be able to operate willy nilly. Dumbo cap fucked everything up
Both were right.
Iron Man was right about the idea of the accords, but the government isn't some wholesome trustworthy entity, making Captain America right in resisting it.
>>70182098
Iron Man is neutral good.
People such as Spider-Man are lawful good.
Those kind of people are better in retrospect.
Why didn't he turn himself in then?
>>70184444
And Tony told Cap that as soon as they could solve their relationship with the public, they could change the acts however they wanted to. And Cap agreed, until "YOU CAN'T GROUND A KID, TONY." When it was keep Wanda at the compound or deport her.
>>70182098
>literally saved the world multiple times
>a few thousand people died
>better than then 7 billion people
>wanting the avengers to be controlled by the UN aka the most ineffective bureaucratic shithole of a governing body ever conceived by man
>>70184781
>controlled by the UN
realistically it would be controlled by a group within the UN or the UN security council
it wouldn't be that bad
>>70182098
>bending over for big brother
I know /tv/ is cuck central, but have some self-respect, man.
>>70184781
And what good alternative is there?
The rest is now wanted as criminals and can only operate in the shadows or in countries which were not for the accords. So they hide and have no use as superheros...
>>70184781
>invade foreign countries at will for 4 years
>don't cooperate with local authorities, or even inform them of activity
>SURPRISE! COLLATERAL DAMAGE!
117 countries supported the Accords because their citizens were afraid. It's a public relations issue more so than an actual control issue. They need to answer to someone in the case that they mess up. The UN isn't going to move to have the Avengers arrested for saving the world without permission, and the Accords would have different clauses for special cases. Did you see how thick the draft was?
>>70182098
They were stupid with the low death cunts in the movie.
But you have to look at it from Caps point of view, how many people will die when the heroes have to wait for a council to decide whether or not to intervene in something happening?
As opposed to The Avengers going immediately to the disaster zone.
But yeah like 90% of the events occurring are Avengers related, like Vision said,
Superheroes bring the super villains.
>>70185406
It's a thing that goes all the way back to Cap being in World War 2 in the first movie. When he finds out about all of his buddies being held prisoner at a HYDRA base, the higher-ups tell him that he can't do anything about it. He ignores those orders and comes back as a hero, with several dozen men's lives saved.
It's not illogical to believe things like this (and SHIELD being compromised) resulted in Cap's way of thinking.
>>70182296
Damn, sauce buddy-o?
>>70182098
That movie made literally no sense at all.
So corporate asshole guy is concerned about everything being out of control so he wants all the other assholes to be answerable to some organization. It's not a bad idea as far as ideas go but the movie executes it in a totally moronic way. First of all, why are these assholes required to sign it individually? Aren't they citizens of countries and bound by other regular laws? And aren't most of them pretty tame and easily subdued? Captain Asshole is a tough dude but it's not like he's bulletproof or something. Not to mention that corporate asshole guy literally doesn't need their consent or their cooperation. He can just mass produce his suits and hand them out to the US army or something.
Then there's the totally senseless choices that the characters make. Captain Asshole is really the guy who should have been pro-control. He is a soldier and has a very clear by-the-rules attitude while corporate asshole guy is a stereotypical rules breaker and a walking Ayn Rand wet dream.
Then there's the general boringness of indestructible people punching each other. And why the fuck doesn't corporate asshole guy just show up with 500 other assholes all wearing iron man suits?
Then there's the total stupidity of archer asshole accusing corporate asshole of being a fascist asshole or something. Even though archer asshole is a career killer who worked for notCIA.
Also the general pointlessness of wounding black iron man. It's like supposed to be this heavy emotional scene with consequences and shit. And then later, he's walking around and will apparently make a full recovery.
Speaking of pointless things, the final scene literally makes the movie meaningless. You can call me anytime you like pal! So what is then the point of this whole division if everyone is going to stay friends secretly? And then they're going to get reunited and then there will be amnesty or some other stupid shit like that.
>>70185576
exactly
#teamcap
plus the fucker leading the accords essentially caused Abomination
>>70186041
>plus the fucker leading the accords essentially caused Abomination
Isn't that why we should have the accords?
So we don't get another Ultron?
>>70186036
>has a very clear by-the-rules attitude
I like when people just make up characterizations and then complain when a movie doesn't follow their bullshit. Captain America has broken the rules in all of his movies.
>>70185282
No, they're just going to have all the Avengers interned without trial for stopping the UN from murdering Bucky without trial and for actually going after Zemo.
>>70186234
it's like people didn't see cap 1, think that his entire character is "soldiers follow orders, that's what makes it an army", yet conveniently fail to realize that in that SAME MOVIE he covered up for fury after he went to his apartment and was branded a fugitive and criminal by SHIELD.
>>70186036
Also, the redhead woman asshole can't decide which team she wants to gangbang
Also, the enemy asshole literally tells them in in their faces that he's manipulating them and none of them care. And then there's punching and then corporate asshole guy decides to drop his whole revenge thing and fuck with government asshole over the phone.
You know, for a guy who's dead set on killing the winter asshole he certainly doesn't put much effort into it.
>>70186234
He broke them to because the organization he was in was secretly evil which makes it ok and then earlier when he went to save his friend. But in none of these cases does he go to war against other good guys which is not the case in this movie. Saying fuck you to your boss is ok when he's evil or when what you're doing won't be detrimental to him in any way. Doing it when your boss is being totally reasonable and when you are told in face by the villain that he's just manipulating you is moronic and totally out of character for him.
It was fucking stupid and if you liked you're stupid too
>>70186473
>He broke them to because the organization he was in was secretly evil
Again, people pretend they've watched the movies and post shit like this, but they haven't. Amazing!
>>70186567
Yeah, that whole movie about notCIA being actually notGestapo is totally in my imagination.
>>70186473
>But in none of these cases does he go to war against other good guys which is not the case in this movie.
Which he doesn't do in this movie: Captain America's actions:
>Chasing down Bucky and preventing the police from killing him
>Chasing down Bucky and pulling him out of the river
>Trying to get to Siberia
>Stopping Iron Man from murdering Bucky in Siberia
The only thing he does AGAINST the UN is in the final scene when he breaks everyone out of prison, but please argue how locking up Earth's heroes without trial when they were proven 100% right is something a trustworthy organization does.
>>70186699
Well first of all in that movie he breaks the rules before he knows SHIELD is evil.
But second of all, if you think that was the first time he broke the rules, then again, you have not actually watched the movies but decide to post anyway.
>>70186473
>Doing it when your boss is being totally reasonable and when you are told in face by the villain that he's just manipulating you is moronic and totally out of character for him.
And WTF is this supposed to mean? He had two choices by the time he was at Siberia: allow Iron to kill Bucky or don't. And in EVERY MOVIE he has consistently saved Bucky's life, and this is now "out of character"?
now team Cap has to hide and cant save anyone anymore, i hope this really comes back to him, would be interesting for his character too
>>70185687
not them, but here's the artist:
http://hallpen.deviantart.com/gallery/53600919/MCU
>>70186282
Tony said they would get Bucky into a psychiatric hospital rather than a prison. There was always going to be a trial. The whole point of the Accords is that there can be trials. Holding them after they blow up half an airport because they can't cooperate is reasonable, they're obviously aflightrisk.
>if they hadn't gone after Zemo, Tony would have never tried to murder Bucky. Nothing would have happened.
>If Cap had told Tony the truth when he learned it, Tony would have had time to come to terms with it and accept the fact that Bucky wasn't responsible for his actions. Rather than have the reveal that his parents were murdered while the hands that did it were three feet away.
>>70187279
this desu
>>70186702
>but please argue how locking up Earth's heroes without trial when they were proven 100% right is something a trustworthy organization does.
They're a bunch of weirdos with powers who went directly against the orders of their superiors to help a violent killer who murdered god knows how many innocent people in the service of a foreign power. Any regular dude on the street would be put into gitmo for shit like that. All these assholes sacrifice themselves for no good reason whatsoever.
Are you really going to tell me that these assholes are entitled to do whatever the fuck they want?
>>70184333
Cap wants to have the freedom and responsibility to choose what to do.
Tony wanted to absolve himself of having to take responsibility for the casualties future activity would ensue. Like being a soldier, ironically.
![1404743668287[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/d6XI7h1.jpg "1404743668287[1].jpg")
>Despite the supergeeks’ arguing either against working for the restrictive capitalist government or for their own sense of doing right and correcting injustice, the fact is, nothing here has gravitas. Civil War is politics as adolescents misperceive social/global crisis.
>This has been going on for so long (ever since Hollywood realized the bounty to be had in cajoling comic-book culture’s ready audience; since, say, the 1978 Superman film, then 1989’s Batman) that, by now, the brainwashing is complete. The trivializing has grabbed such hold that when a genuine pop artist like Zack Snyder deepens comics lore into visionary, moral art (the profound Man of Steel and Batman v Superman), many fanboys, and critics, react with anger, resentment — and ignorance.
>>70187279
No, actually, they only make offers after Captain has brought him in alive. They offer nothing at the airport. But since you're just making shit up, no point in continuing.
>>70187513
The problem is that the rest of the world doesn't trust Cap to always make the right call. And if Cap doesn't accept any input, and isn't held accountable for his actions, how can they?
It's not that Tony wants to absolve himself of responsibility, it's the opposite: he wants to be a part of a system where he is accountable. Where they all are.
The main themes of the movie are trust, blame, and vengeance. Zemo specifically goes after the Avengers because "they get to go home," but for him, he lost everything and only had them to blame.
The UN was fucking stupid. They nearly let Zemo unleash five Winter Soldiers on the world. Cap was right.
>>70187778
Cap doesn't bring him in alive, did we watch the same movie? The police force surrounds them and brings them all in after the chase with T'Challa (who was the only one who wanted to murder Bucky at that point).
The part about the airport was justification for the internment of the rogue Avengers, not offering Bucky anything. Tony needs them to be captured at the airport, because General Ross will send a force less interested in their well-being if he doesn't, and the consequences will be out of Tony's control. Tony is trying to prevent their arrest, and is trying to keep their team together. He has no reason at that point to say "Oh, about Bucky, forget my earlier offer of psychiatric help."
Clearly, you can't follow character motivation or basic plot lines, no point in continuing.
>>70188053
>is getting played
>taking another winter soldier to zemo
>is right
ok
>lets have the avengers be controlled by the UN
>over 100 countries signed this treaty and are involved in it
>countries like Saudi Arabi and China
>Countries that have committed genocide and have killed there own people
ya nah, not to mention they are controlled by General Ross, someone that has tried to capture the Hulk to create more
>>70183752
Well a fireman might save a family doesn't mean he can just go around doing whatever he wants
>>70188145
>(who was the only one who wanted to murder Bucky at that point).
Sharon tells Steven that they had a shoot on site order for Bucky, which is what makes him get involved.
>>70188053
UN had nothing to do with it. Cap didn't tell anybody about Zemo's plan. Though he easily could have. He specifically doesn't tell Tony about Zemo's plan because he doesn't know if the UN will let Tony help. He never gave them a chance to help, until the airport-- which was a little late and seemed a lot less believable than if he had gone to Tony in the first place.
Zemo never was going to free the rest of the Winter Soldiers, he literally wanted to kill them.
>>70188171
Because Cap can't beat five Winter Soldiers by himself. If they didn't go they'd risk all five of them going who knows where.
>>70188300
so bring another one who just needs to hear the words and will beat you up.... seriously is he stupid?
>>70187513
And what makes captain asshole specially qualified to do whatever the fuck he wants? Especially when the consequences of his actions usually involve something that puts entire cities at risk.
But then again the biggest most glaring problem is how they try really hard to ignore the fact that corporate asshole can just mass produce himself an army of iron men. But no, he goes to enlist a teenager to help him.
Then why didn't he agree to be jailed for each death Ultron commited?
It was his fault Ultron was around, he should be held responsible.
>>70188251
After what they thought he did, and how dangerous he clearly is, it's reasonable. You'll notice that when they realized he was in a position to be captured, they allowed it.
In real life, if some guy bombs the UN and has a long history of assassinations, as well as is a super-human, I'm sure you would still be so appalled that the soldiers sent to stop them might've not stopped to think about offering him a fucking trial.
>>70188279
He tried to explain at the airport but Tony just dismissed what he was saying because he said Cap was biased. At the time they didn't know Zemo wanted to kill the Winter Soldiers, they naturally assumed he was going to free them.
>>70182098
>Avnegers saved the world
>If they didn't do anything a helluva lot more people would've died
>The only time it was because of The Avengers it was becauseStark created Ultron
In the real world, yes not in the MCU. I wish Cap stopped being the majestic being he is and just put down on Tony for being an ass.
>>70188358
Just wear earplugs.
>>70188488
that's why he agreed?
>>70188493
You mean after Cap, Falcon and BP got involved?
>>70188498
Point still stands that Cap didn't trust Tony enough to tell him when he found out what Zemo was up to. He has a conversation with Sam specifically about whether or not he was going to ask for help, and he decides not to. Had he contacted Tony then, Tony likely would have given him the benefit of the doubt.
Tony didn't have time to do so at the airport, he was on the clock and knew if the team didn't come in, there would be no team.
i think BW made the best argument when it came to the accords, it's better to have one hand at the wheel than none
what use in life has Steve now?
>>70188592
How is agreeing to some terms a proper punishment?
If I shoot some guy in the face, the cops don't just ask for the gun and give a slap on the wrist not to do it again. If I made a killer robot that murdered people you can bet your ass I'd be jailed for the rest of my life.
Stark deserved to be in prison for the remainder of his natural life. The other Avengers were covering for him so he wouldn't be the only one punished for Ultron.
They were both being completely unreasonable, but Stark literally can not accept the fact that Ultron was his fault. When he talks about Sokovia in CW he shifts the blame to the whole team when it was entirely his fault. His ego is so massive he can not genuinely accept what he's done wrong. He has to make it a group issue because he's literally incapable of acknowledging the mistake as entirely his own.
>Hey remember when SHIELD was working on the Tesseract with no one elses knowledge and that led to Aliens invading?
>Hey remember when the World Security Council ordered a nuclear attack on New York City that Tony almost died stopping?
>Hey remember when Hydra was going to send out 3 airships to kill people, because they controlled the World Security Council?
>Hey remember when Tony decided to create a machine that would try to control the world?
But CAPTAIN AMERICA, he is the problem.
The sad thing is all the Baby Boomers, Gen X'ers and Millennials would think he is the bad guy because he is a soldier
>>70182098
It's about integrity anon, and doing what you know is good.
>>70187561
Holy fuck what's the source on this.
>>70188719
his only fault is, that he failed as a leader
>>70188765
How are you enjoying your summer here?
>>70188630
Yes, you fuck. Which is why there were penalties to their actions. You can't tell me that Bucky didn't fuck up that guy on the motorcycle (who was a completely innocent bystander) or nearly kill the police officers sent to neutralize him. If they had shot to kill in the absence of those heroes, they would be justified. It's not like the UN could call them in to capture Bucky, none of them had signed (except maybe BP), and the council wouldn't have known where they were. Had he signed, Steve could have asked for permission to bring Bucky in alive, something regular police wouldn't have a chance of doing.
>>70188697
You shot the gun of your own free will. If you had been working on a gun and some magical bullshit caused it to become sentient and kill people, things are a little less clear cut.
In the case of Stark and Ultron, the outcome was the opposite of what Stark desired. He deserves punishment, but at the same time-- him in jail doesn't serve anyone any good. Stark is much more beneficial free: providing technologies and funding the Avengers, and creating projects like the September Foundation in penance. He's trying to repay the world for his mistakes himself.
Agreeing to the Accords just means the people will trust them again, not that they're not responsible.
>>70182296
Except that he's a sociopath who does whatever he wants whenever he wants and never cares about the consequences, which is why he built a psychotic murderbot, then blamed his team for the consequences and tried to kill them.
>>70189715
>the outcome was the opposite of what Stark desired
Part of being an adult means you're still responsible for completely and utterly fucking up, even if you didn't ~mean~ to completely and utterly fuck up.
Tony Stark doesn't understand that though, because he isn't an adult, and is actually a hyperintelligent, 50 year old child.
>Stark is much more beneficial free: providing technologies
Except that his technologies are literally what killed Slovakia.
How about we don't let the irresponsible sociopath build another, even bigger murderbot?
>>70186188
Fucking this. Who the fuck would trust the UN with super heroes.
>>70187896
>The problem is that the rest of the world doesn't trust Cap to always make the right call
The problem is that Cap will make the right call, and the UN will frequently and repeatedly make the wrong call and get people killed.
>>70184333
>Don't break the stupid, shitty law now, Cap! Wait to do it until Hydra literally has a gun to your head (again)
Are you a fucking idiot?
>>70184333
>some hypotheticals
You mean the "hypothetical" of hydra infiltrating an organization from top to bottom, subverting it, and manipulating Cap, personally, into cluelessly doing its dirty work?
>>70191588
>irresponsible sociopath
>was trying to build a safeguard to protect the world and his friends
>signs the Accords because of his actions, advocates accountability
Yeah, sure.
>>70182098
If people in this movie who aren't Captain America weren't completely stupid, they would have said
"Okay here's the deal: We have the avengers report to the UN. We create a UN-appointed head of the team who determines when and where it can intervene. We then appoint Captain America. He occasionally has to fill out and send us some paperwork after he's done saving our lives"
Bam. Simple, neat, efficient, and official.
>>70192036
>responsible non-sociopath
>trying to build a murderbot to control the world
>signs the accords because he blames his friends for his own actions, tries to murder them
yeah, sure
>>70192036
You get that sociopaths do generally have rationalizations, right? It doesn't make them not sociopaths.
>>70192122
>>trying to build a murderbot to control the world
Okay so we can't blame bucky for being mind controlled by hydra but we can blame Iron man for shit he has done while under the influence of wanda and the staff?
>>70191885
>wait until you need to break the law to break the law
>so that you have the resources and public's trust to do what needs to be done
But no, it's a "stupid, shitty law" because they aren't allowed to do whatever they want to do, fuck the rest of the world, right?
>>70192178
>we can blame Iron man for shit he has done while under the influence of wanda and the staff?
Of course we can, because none of that shit happened, and Tony actually just built a murderbot of his own free will because he's a sociopath
>>70192168
You get that Tony did literally nothing which would indicate sociopathy? He literally does not fit the criteria.
>>70192215
>fuck the rest of the world
The rest of the world that gets to live because of the avengers repeatedly saving it?
You're right, the UN needs to stop that shit and get the entire world killed, for the good of the world.
We can't have those Avengers going around doing whatever they want, like how they want to save the world from being killed!
>>70192317
Except for him absolutely being a sociopath.
>>70192122
>guy who want to protect others
>tries to make an intelligent protection system after being shown his literal worst fear, which is hijacked by an infinity stone he didn't properly understand
>sign the accords because people want them to be held accountable, wants to keep his friends on the same team
>only goes after Bucky with intent to kill when he finds out Bucky murdered his parents, spends the rest of the movie trying to avoid having anyone hurt.
>>70192215
Why would Cap have any kind of resources or public trust after becoming the UN's cumdumpster than he has now after saving the world three times?
>>70192355
The UN would stop the Avengers from saving the world! That totally seems like something the UN would do! And if the Avengers stopped the world from ending without permission, the UN would punish them!
You do understand that people, and the Accords specifically, would deal with special cases with actual human consideration? Or do you not leave your room enough to understand how the real world works?
Tony specifically said that they could amend the acts any way they saw fit, but that they needed the world to trust them to do so.
>>70192529
>hijacked by an infinity stone he didn't properly understand
He literally chose of his own free will to put infinity stone technology he didn't properly understand into his murderbot, because he really really really really really wanted his murderbot.
>sign the accords because of obvious rationalizations that have nothing to do with why he signed
You get that sociopaths do generally have rationalizations, right? It doesn't make them not sociopaths.
>>70188241
But they literally saved the world, twice. Also Iron Man can't into self responsibility
>>70192681
>And if the Avengers stopped the world from ending without permission, the UN would punish them!
The plot of the movie is literally that the Avengers stopped the world from ending without permission and that the UN is punishing them.
You are literally a moron.
>>70192758
Don't forget the one time Cap saved the world all by himself, from shield agents using stark technology! (those repulsor engines in the fancy new murdercarriers)
>>70192681
>Or do you not leave your room enough to understand how the real world works?
The real world where Saudi Arabia sits on the UN Human Rights Council?
That real world?
That UN?
>>70192565
Because he has none of it now? He's an outlaw? Along with his murder-assassin butt buddy? He has to act in secret if he's going to help anyone, which means it's a lot more difficult.
>>70183752
>literally save humanity from death or enslavement by motherfucking aliens
I like how everyone conviently blamed/blames the Avengers for all the bad shit that goes down (and honestly most of itt really was inevitable and the Avengers weren't to blame/got way too much shit ) then fail to think about the worse shit that would happen if the Avengers weren't there to save the world's ass. Without the Avengers much worse would have happened and many many more people would have died. The threats to Earth wouldn't just have gone away.
>>70192529
>>70192714
Wow, I just rewatched the scene where tony is creating ultron and it's so much worse than this, because on top of every other stupid thing about his decision to use alien technology to create a murderbot, he specifically REFUSES TO TELL HIS TEAM, because "WE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR A CITY HALL DEBATE"
Literally the only "slovakia accords" should have been an accord to keep tony stark locked up at all times wearing a Hannibal Lechter mask in a concrete cell at the bottom of the ocean where he can never touch a piece of technology again
>>70192952
>then fail to think about the worse shit that would happen if the Avengers weren't there to save the world's ass
Friendly reminder that the World Security Council's non-avenger's solution was to nuke New York City and kill everybody in it.
>>70192888
>Because he has none of it now? He's an outlaw?
Which is also what he would be if he broke the law later, so...
>>70192760
Actually, the plot of the movie is literally Cap decided he couldn't trust anyone and destroyed the Avengers because he wouldn't sign a piece of paper.
The UN isn't punishing them with the Accords, the world is asking them to be accountable in the future to a higher authority.
But no, asking them to be responsible is PUNISHMENT, not a reasonable act.
>>70193040
This, or fit Tony with an unremovable shock collar that Steve controls, and then every time Tony gets a gleam in his eye about building some new doomsday weapon Steve can be like BAD TONY *shock*
>>70182098
He did a good job getting buried by cars.
Death to all manlets.
>>70192870
>Saudi Arabia is part of the UN
>that means the UN would totally probably be okay with the world ending
Your argument makes no sense.
>>70193189
>the world
Why do you keep trying to pretend the UN is the world?
Why do you keep ignoring that the last representative of "the world" tried to nuke new york city?
>because he wouldn't sign a piece of paper.
If it's just "a piece of paper" why do you care if cap doesn't want to sign the piece of paper?
Why does it hurt your dick so bad that Cap doesn't want to sign a worthless piece of paper?
Is it because you're full of shit, and you know it would be exponentially more difficult for Cap to do the right thing later, once he's already accepted UN authority over his team?
>>70193155
But he would have had it up to that point, which means he could have saved people easier, and been part of the amendments process with the Accords? And the whole issue would have likely been resolved?
You're assuming there will be a situation where something terrible is happening, and the entire world will say "nah, cap, it ain't no biggie.", which probably would never be the case. We'll never know, because his side refused to give the will of the people a chance.
>>70193356
Right, it's totally insane that SHIELD would be okay with trying to end the world due to being infiltrated top to bottom by Hydra.
That's some totally crazy shit that could never, ever happen
>>70182423
i think they would let it happen because muh soupah powah
>>70193525
>part of the amendments process with the Accords?
Why do you imagine this would matter in any way at all?
What delusion makes you think they wouldn't say "well cap you already signed and you're our bitch now, so here's your amendments process: no amendments, eat shit"
Is this what you do in real life? Agree to stupid contracts, then try to renegotiate after you've already signed them?
>>70193525
>the entire world
Why do you keep imagining the UN is "the world"? Are you a moron?
>which means he could have saved people easier
Why do you imagine that an arbitrary bureaucratic authority that Cap has to wait on before he can save people would allow him to save people easier?
Have you never had a single job anywhere, in your entire life?
>>70192269
>Of course we can
Really? That's your reasoning?
>none of that shit happened.
So your saying that part where wanda mind-fucks stark never happened? Wanda used
"starks fear" to create Ultron, but ultimately he didn't create Ultron Ultron created himself. If you want to blame somebody I think wanda would be your best bet.
>UN
>in charge of the Avengers
>when they didn't let Cap go for the guy who bombed the UN itself
>>70188234
>Y does X so X is bad
lmao
>>70182423
>No one on earth would possibly be cool with a bunch of heroes kicking the shit out of terrorists
yeah bro if there's one thing the world loves, it's terrorists
>>70193378
>117 countries don't want a guy wearing the American flag to infringe on their rights and borders
>totally doesn't qualify the use of the word "world"
Okay, I'll use 117 countries from now on, if it makes my argument more palatable for you.
WSC wasn't representative of the world, it was like twelve people who determined a threat was too great to risk. (Sometimes, smaller groups of individuals make the wrong call. Huh)
>you know it would be exponentially more difficult for Cap to do the right thing later
Patently false. The thing with laws are they go through an amendments process, which Cap could have even led. He was willing, even, until he found out that Tony has grounded Wanda. And even asides, Cap could have just as easily broken the law later if it turned out to be necessary.
>>70193809
>Y is bad
>X is good
>Y wants to take over X
>this is bad
whoa you're right bro, totally crazy nonsense logic itt
>>70193809
>Y does X so X is bad
That's not even close to what he said
>>70193544
>117 countries, all infiltrated to highest levels by HYDRA
The world would be fucked, anyway. This isn't a private organization.
>>70182098
>Iron Man did nothing wrong.
Except for that whole Ultron thing.
>Superheroes should be bound by rule of law.
Agreed - especially when they create murderous robots responsible for global genocide!
>>70193880
No, you absolute fucking moron, laws literally don't go through an amendments process, because they are already laws.
Your notion that Cap can somehow renegotiate the accords after they are already signed into law is completely fucking stupid and wrong.
>>70192952
It's basically a kindergarten level moral/ethics problem, which most people seem to fail miserably.
There will be collateral damage in any conflict, when you're saving the world people will still die. The choice is basically save the world or let everyone die. Yet people keep whining about few casualties here and there instead of seeing the bigger picture.
You see a lot of this nowadays. Death has become too big of a taboo in the civilized world and we are far too detached from it.
>>70193982
>Hydra can infiltrate SHIELD but not the UN because the UN is magic
you are literally a moron
>>70193651
The Accords are law (not a contract), and this is true whether or not Cap signs them. The signing is more of an act of good faith, especially to the public, to show he's willing to cooperate.
To think there wouldn't be an amendment process, especially one that allows for the Avengers to intervene without orders in cases which necessitate it, is ridiculous.
>>70193880
Why don't they amend the law into one that isn't shit, THEN pass it, THEN tell cap to sign it?
Why do they need Cap to sign the shitty law, before they can (they promise) go back and retroactively make it a good law (pinkie swear)?
Are you enough of an idiot to fall for this obvious lie, or do you just think other people are? (answer: both)
>>70194091
Laws are constantly being amended, you ignorant bitch.
It was explicitly stated that the Accords would be.
I feel like a lot of people are misunderstanding Tony's point of view on the accords.
>What's the point of being answerable to the UN? There will still be collateral damage
This is true, there will of course be collateral damage whenever The Avengers intervene in something, the point of Tony's side is shifting the responsibility for the collateral damage from the little, independent group of superheroes to the general population of the world.
As the UN is an assembly of delegates of elected governments that represent their people, especially so in the movie where the UN seems to be a lot more efficient, the act of calling The Avengers via a general or Security Council vote to intervene will be the result of the most perfect global democratic process available to humankind (at the moment).
It's only a few steps away from having a message pop up on everyone's phones/computers: Send in Avengers Y/N? And just taking a full world population vote.
I honestly support Tony's position, and think it's a completely natural progression from his actions and consequences in previous films to want to take some of the responsibility away from being a hero, and part of The Avengers.
>inb4 MUH INDIVIDUALISM
>>70194244
>To think there wouldn't be an amendment process
Laws that are already signed don't have an "amendment process", you are a completely stupid deluded fucking moron
>>70194186
What I said was if all of those countries were infiltrated by HYDRA, the world was fucked anyway. Not that they couldn't be, it's just extremely fucking unlikely.
lrn 2 reading comprehension
>>70194327
>the act of calling The Avengers via a general or Security Council vote to intervene
Literally a security council vote to intervene every time the avengers are needed?
You're outright admitting that you want the UN to let the world get murdered while it dicks around.
You are a completely stupid fucking moron.
>>70192082
Way better idea than the Accords
>>70194340
see
>>70194318
And do some gov't courses while you're at it.
>>70194363
>the world was fucked anyway
Except not, because it has superheroes who will save it, you fucking moron
PS: you are a completely stupid fucking moron
>>70182098
I agree with Cap desu
>>70194327
>It's only a few steps away from having a message pop up on everyone's phones/computers: Send in Avengers Y/N?
Oh boy what a great idea for a system.
>pajeet in calcutta, should the avengers be used to stop the destruction of new york city?
Can't wait till the misogynist system of national sovereignty is a thing of the past.
>>70194457
>The superheroes will save it
From what? Shady government practices?
Your argument if you follow this thread:
The UN would punish the Avengers for saving the world because they're infiltrated by HYDRA!
Sounds pretty moronic to me, m8.
>>70194438
There is literally no such thing as an "amendments process" for a law that has already been passed.
There's just the law that's been passed, and the possibility of new laws, which cap would have literally no authority to pass or influence.
You are a completely stupid fucking moron making up stupid shit because you are a completely stupid fucking moron.
>>70194379
The point is that because the avengers are so fucking powerful (likened to nukes) if they were ACTUALLY needed to protect the earth, the threat would be so enormous, imminent and apparent that the voting process would be expedited and result in a very fast and unanimous "Yes". Or they establish further policy like those of nuclear retaliation that means the Avengers can be immediate and reactionary, yet still within UN jurisdiction.
Stop being such a small minded faggot.
>>70194687
We're talking about a movie, where it is explicitly stated that there would be an amendments process.
>All world governments work like America's!
>>70194685
Of course it seems moronic to you
You're a fucking moron, of course you think things that would obviously happen, because they are already exactly what happened at SHIELD, are moronic. Because you are a moron
Also: you are a completely stupid fukcing moron
>>70194739
>if they were ACTUALLY needed to protect the earth, the threat would be so enormous, imminent and apparent that the voting process would be expedited and result in a very fast and unanimous
So your argument is explicitly that the Avengers should, absolutely, be forced to stop fighting Hydra by the UN, so that Hydra can be allowed to create a catastrophic situation that actually does threaten the world.
Okay, I get it: you're Hydra.
Also: you are a completely stupid fucking moron
>>70194782
>I can only use insults because I've run out of actual arguments
>>70193880
>UN fanboy
That's something I never ever expected to see.
>>70194888
Of course you're ignoring my arguments, because you're a completely stupid fucking moron
Also: you are a completely stupid fucking moron
>>70194865
>WAHHHH IM TOO FUCKING RETARDED TO SEE THE MERIT OF INTERGOVERNMENTAL COOPERATION ON SECURITY AND ECONOMIC POLICY
>LEAVE IT TO DA USAAAAA WE GOTS THE HEROES AND THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT!!! FUCK YOU NO LAW CAN BIND THEM, HERE CAP TAKE MY UNDERAGE DAUGHTER AND IMPREGNATE HER YOU GUYS ARE ABOVE ALL DA LAWSSS
>LOL FCK THE REST OF HUMANITY AND HUMAN DEVELOPMENT, DA SUPES ARE GOD NOW
Fuck you're a faggot, super or not you're still bound by the laws of humanity or you can fuck right off.
>>70194640
>misogynist system of national sovereignty
Tell me your not being serious
>>70194950
>Muh globalisation boogeyman!!!
Stop being a small minded faggot and maybe get an actual education.
>>70194739
"we can totally pass a good law that lets the avengers fight hydra later, but first we need them to sign this stupid, shitty law that stops them from fighting hydra. But they can break this law and keep fightin hydra, but we don't want them to do that, because we want them to stop fighting hydra, until later, when we'll totally let them fight hydra. But not now, because they need to stop fighting hydra"
"Heil Hydra!"
Also: you are a totally and completely stupid fucking moron
>>70194967
What argument have you made? Really? That you believe Hydra has definitely infiltrated all of those countries?
And even if that were true, which it is definitely not, it's still in Hydra's best interest to prevent the end of the world, y'know. As their base of operations and all, even they wouldn't stop the Avengers from saving it.
>>70195011
OK Hydra.
PS: You are completely and absolutely a stupid fucking moron
>>70195138
>it's still in Hydra's best interest to prevent the end of the world,
Literally Hydra ITT
ALSO: a fucking moron
>>70195084
>>70195146
>Hydra, a fictional intelligence agency in a fictional universe is forever and always inherently more coordinated, motivated and effective than a real life, global institution in said fictional universe that would be open to the exact same inefficiencies and agency cost as the fictional Hydra
I love these gay arbitrary headcannons you retards come up with
>>70195084
>Pass a law that allows Avengers to continue fighting Hydra, but requires them to cooperate with local forces and government to minimize collateral damage and not infringe on the rights of foreign nations and their people.
Yeah, sounds unreasonable to me.
>>70184897
The UN are scumbag hypocrite niggers.
>>70182861
This was my thought myself
>OH IM SO SORRY THERE WAS AN AMERICAN-CENTRALIZED ALIEN INVASION THAT NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HELPED WITH
>Then like somehow a whole goddamn city is hovered into the air by a robot? I mean it was retarded but if anything Tony Stark should have been tried and executed for being an international terrorist for building the fucking thing
Somehow good superheroes that dont overstep their boundaries are forced to comply with this bullshit?
>Implying collateral damage only happens when superheroes try to save the day, and not militaries
>>70195192
HAHAHAHA. classic hydra
>>70195319
Why not just ban hydra?
>>70182098
I just wished he had killed that fuckboy Steve and his emo butt-buddy Fucky.
>>70195412
Hahhahhahhah, cheers Cletus, I needed a laff
>>70195081
>Stop being a small minded faggot and maybe get an actual education.
Yeah man, I totally agree now. UN is where it's at yo!
>>70195523
>meanwhile, trafficking in child sex slaves somewhere in the middle east or Africa, Arnold Saint-Germain tips his baby blue helmet
>>70195770
>conjecture and anecdotal evidence
Be sure to include that in your report, I'm sure it will hold up well to peer-review hahha
>>70195633
>Intergovernmental coordination for world security, development and environmental protection are bad because my dumbfuck redneck associates say so!!
>>70195917
>peer-review
>thinking a hyphen was appropriate there
>actually throwing a reddit meme around
Wow capeshitposters really are the great alien.
insallah, I say to you now heathen, you will be brought under the righteous heel of the holy prophet's laws.
>>70196207
>"When lacking a coherent or relevant argument, or having been sincerely destroyed in an argumentative exchange, the lesser intellectual will often resort to attacking the grammar of the victor. It is truly a pathetic, submissive display"
Yay mum I won
>>70196207
It's clear you don't really know or care about grammar, but the hyphen being unnecessary doesn't mean it's technically wrong.
Also, >>70196417
>>70196940
>>70196417
>why won't he take the fucking bait uuunnggg im so fucking pissed
>>70197030
more like:
>why won't he make a legitimate argument
But don't worry, it's clear at this point that you're incapable.
>>70186983
secret avengers.
>>70196007
>Intergovernmental coordination for world security, development and environmental protection are bad because my dumbfuck redneck associates say so!!
Sounds like a great idea in a world filled with different culture and moral values. It really does.
Thank god UN has literally no power, at all. And I hope it will stay that way.
Where this "Tony is a child and irresponsible" thing coming from?
>The first Ironman movie involved in trying to fix a problem he didn't even start but was related to. And people gave him shit for trying to focus him manpower on something that isn't war.
>The second movie involved him trying to keep secrets so no one would abuse them.
>In Avengers he was playful but he leveled out and complimented banner on his new power. Not to mention almost dying twice.
>Second Avengers got him mind spiked by Wanda and attempted to build a robot that would allow his team to not risk their lives
He's at fault for designing them, but not at fault for what happens after. He takes responsibility throughout all these movies, he just doesn't dwell on them as long as everyone else. Tony at worst is arrogant in what he believes but it's not being irresponsible, it's a coping mechanism.
Both of them were right in regards to the Sokovia accords but unless one of the Avengers knew how to read minds I don't think any of them knew what would happen after anyway.
>>70182296
In the comics, everyone loves illegal alien immigrants like Superman who can fly and shoot laser beams.
Meanwhile, everyone in the comics hate mutants even though they are actually born on Earth.
Comics were always stupid shit.
Also, ironic that scientists in the comics can create superheroes yet can't even cure cancer.
Also, super advanced AI is possible yet farmers in the comics still have to rely on human labor and self driving trucks don't exist.
>>70197307
The purpose of the UN is to prevent international strife, but it's ineffective because the members of the UN are countries still looking out for their own interests.
Let's just reverse the Accords to put the Avengers in charge of the UN.
>>70197484
If I understand correctly, it was because Superman looked like your alphamale human who just had super human abilities. Xmen and mutants in general were seen as deformities.
I get what you're sayin, I just think there was a reason behind it
>>70197307
>equates "power" with propensity to pursue and achieve active military operations
I remember being 8 too. The UN has plenty of power and has made significant contributions to many of it's long term goals, especially those involving human development and poverty.
>inb4 lol I don't care about poor niggers kekkek
Yeah, being 8 is sweet as I said previously.
>>70197947
Dude, I know it's the internet, but if you want anyone to take anything you say seriously... nah, fuck it.
You're a fucking brat lashing out from your mom's basement while jerking off to the UN flag and then using it as your cumrag because you can't afford tissues. At least you found some use for the flag you bought. Nice and innovative.
>>70198316
>that response
Hahhaha wtf dude you sperged out hard there. Can't come up with anything but that in response? I thought not, but I was still hoping for a bit more than that. Oh well.
If you really want to know I'm a development economist by trade, and often write reports for/about the UN's various human development programs for delegates and colleagues. Of corse you probably won't believe me, I'm just explaining how I so thoroughly schooled your uneducated ass just now.
>mum's basement shit
Nice projecting loser, now why don't you go and make something of yourself? Or at least try? You might find you enjoy it much like I do :)
>>70198532
>I'm just explaining how I so thoroughly schooled your uneducated ass just now.
Really?
>>70188697
but all he does is accepting how much he fucked up, in every movie he is regretting things he does (see f.e. in aou the talk with nick fury) on cw his motivation is, that he want to hold the team together
