I don't get it. You'd think they'd both be against being put on lists.
Tony was as anti-government as he could be in IM2.
And Cap obviously is against it because he thinks the government would have too much power.
Am I missing something?
Yes. IM2 was before a wormhole opened above New York and gave Tony PTSD about being able to defend the planet.
>>68876381
And you know, creating the whole imma destroy earth robot.
>>68876381
Why was Tony so fucked up by that?
He's almost died quite a few times, as have the others, and yet he's the emotional one?
Tony keeps fucking up and wants to gesture and make up for it
>>68876333
>Tony's villains have been corrupt individuals: Killian, Stane, Hammer.
>Steve's villains have been corrupt organizations: Nazi-Hydra, SHIELD-Hydra.
Tony ends up seeing the individual as corruptible, and the need for a stronger governing body/watchdog.
Steve ends up seeing the institution as corruptible, and in need of individual oversight.
>>68876422
Because it sets up the Infinity War space invasion conflict so he can prepare to make his true sacrifice
>>68876444
>>68876446
/thread
>>68876422
Because, as Cap said in the first avengers movie.. he isn't a soldier. Cap, Widow, Barton, Thor, are soldiers/warriors (and Hulk is just a monster so Banner is practically unkillable), Stark is more of a philanthropist who decided to play the hero.
>>68876333
>Am I missing something?
This thing called character development.
Manlet man is all for it after his Ultron fuck up.
>>68876422
Because of the setting. This wasn't Thor or Guardians. Tony is a human, and seeing an invading army suddenly start flooding through a wormhole above NYC could easily freak someone out.
Hence, Ultron and Vision.
>>68876333
Is just an extension of what he wanted to do with Ultron.
With him, he wanted a way so that the Avengers wouldn't be needed, basically, pass it up the chain of command.
With the government now he did exactly the same, let others take control of it since he can't do shit.
>>68876500
Interesting.
>>68876483
Is RDJ going to be in that? I thought he was hanging it up.
>>68876583
He will after Infinity War.
>>68876500
sad part is people don't understand that he took that nuke up expecting to die. for the first time.
i mean the dude was deep in space too.. agoraphobia maybe?
either way, he tried to think of EVERYTHING and no way he could have truly imagined that. So then you see him go full autism with the 50 suits.... each possibility need he could think of.
>>68876333
I just saw movie yesterday as it came out early in Australia.
This isn't really much of a spoiler, but I'll say this anyway:
SPOILER ALERT
SPOILER ALERT
SPOILER ALERT
Okay. Intro film is the New Avengers chasing down Crossbones. He steals some infectious disease in a test tube. Avengers get it back. In process, a building is blown up. Building had some Wakandians in it.
The UN gets involved and writes up the Socovian(?) Accords due to all the collateral damage caused by Avengers in the past few years.
Later on: Stark is introduced doing a lecture at MIT. He meets a woman afterwards who is upset because her son who had graduated with top marks died in Age of Ultron doing humanitarian work. Collateral damage. She's upset the Avengers said gg and went home straight after. Stark is emotionally effected by this which seems to be the turning point in his opinion of government oversight.
END OF SPOILERS
Basically, it's not as if he just suddenly starts sucking government dick.
>>68876799
>existence was saved but some dumb faggot's faggot son was killed
>if the government had total control of the Avengers somehow this wouldn't have happened
Marvel can go fuck themselves, never going to pay for any of their movies now. They want to release the movie in the United States way after its been released every else than I'll just watch it online.
>>68876945
He blames himself, whereas if the government was in charge they would get the blame. He hates himself.
What a faggot.
>>68876446
Man that's deep, you should be a teacher.
>>68876945
No, they're not saying that it wouldn't necessarily have happened with government oversight.
I think they want a system of accountability. There's always going to be collateral damage, but they need systems in place. Like this?
Cap: Fight going down in public space. Can we use Hulk?
Gov: No, because the guy is a living wrecking ball. Use Spiderman or someone capable of more delicate work instead.
That kind of shit.
And maybe having the government provide funding and help in other countries when the Avengers trash the joint.
>>68876333
in IM3 and AoU Tony started expressing change. extreme trauma ain IM3 and in AoU, he fucking said "I see a suit of armor on everyone", obviously saying he wants everything to be police state.
I will watch Civil War and probably like it, but I can't deny that Tony Stark is a fucking asshole, and the conflict of the second Avengers movie is because of him. There is really no defending him at this point.
>>68876446
pottery.
>>68877135
Yes. It was Stark's fault for Ultron. That's addressed again in Civil War.
However, he's not a total fuckwit in Civil War. With the information that he's aware of at the time, there's nothing really wrong with the actions he takes. Except maybe the climax of the film. But he was emotionally compromised at the time to be fair.
>>68876945
>>68876945
if the government was involved they would have stopped him from creating Ultron. or at least there would be people questioning him. granted he created Ultron secretly with Banner being the only other guy who knew.
he's just guilty as fuck and is doing this more for himself to ease the guilt, which is pretty in-character of Tony Stark.
>>68877203
>>68877173
So why wasn't Hank Pym involved in creating Ultron again?
>>68877274
Probably because Ant-Man came out too late and Pym wasn't anywhere near well-established enough for the Age of Ultron film?
It's just the MCU making a change for the films. Which is fine by me. Tony Stark has been making AI's since Iron Man 1.
Hank Pym's specialty is Pym particles. It's sort of odd for him to also be invested in the development of AI. Personally, I find it odd that he also happened to find a way to control ants. It's a totally different field of "science".
>>68877402
>It's a totally different field of "science".
Well it's not like Banner is an AI expert, and there's no reason they couldn't have introduced Pym in AoU, then used the Ultron shit as part of his motivation for wanting to stop the Yellowjacket from being made and sold.
But it didn't happen so this is pointless.
>>68877130
>Cap: Fight going down in public space. Can we use Hulk?
>Gov: No, because the guy is a living wrecking ball. Use Spiderman or someone capable of more delicate work instead.
I'm shocked at how inefficient and dumb this sounds
>>68877548
Yeah, they should just have Hulk do everything.
>>68877548
lol it's a pretty poor example, for sure.
>>68877521
True, Banner has no place working on AI either.
I'm guessing you might be a Pym fan from the comics? I didn't really care about his character, especially after the Age of Ultron comic series. So that might explain why I don't really see a great problem with his exclusion from the MCU intro of Ultron.
Bottom line is that Stark has been around for ages and the general audience cares more about him fucking up rather than they would with newly introduced character just for that movie.
Stark's Scarlet Witch induced nightmare/premonition worked reasonably well enough for me in providing his rushed motivation in trying to come up with Ultron as a solution to an automated Avengers.
>>68877548
>>68877611
I was being stupid when I wrote that. Obviously it wouldn't go down that way.
I just brought up Hulk because in Civil War, they use a few clips of him bouncing around buildings in NYC during Avengers 1 as one of the examples of collateral damage during the intro of the Accords bit.
>>68876333
Tony gave into fear in the second avengers movie. It's what set off the series of events in the movie.
>>68877691
The only way I can see gov. putting them "in check" is if they just give them red lines to not cross. I'd be dumb to phone the gov. in the middle of a fight to ask them if there's something they can or can't do
>>68876422
because he went trhought the wormhole and saw an army much bigger that what was currently attacking earth.
He also created a murderbot
>>68876333
Iron Man's main villains were corrupt individual. Stane, Hammer, Killian. He was also personally responsible for Ultron. He handwaved any doubts and claimed he knew what he was doing. He believes that government oversight would prevent once decent people from making the mistakes he's seen people make.
Captain America's main villains were corrupt systems. You had the Hydra and the Nazis and then Hydra controlling half of shield. Captain America isn't the type of person to perform a lesser evil. He's not the type of person to create an Ultron. Government oversight, especially when they view him with skepticism, gets in the way of him doing what he knows is right.
>>68877135
Why do people always forget Scarlet Witch triggered him and that's why he made Ultron. It was a mistake born out of fear that he overcame in IM3. Now he just wants to do what's best in Civil War.
>>68878085
Scarlet Witch'svisiononly told him that Thanos is coming.
Tony making Ultron was completely his own decision.
>>68878085
>It was a mistake born out of fear that he overcame in IM3
How did he overcome the fear in IM3 if it only came over him in AoU?
>>68878162
This. She even says she saw the fear inside of him and knew she could use it to make him destroy himself.
That said he really is just doing what he thinks is best. That doesn't make what he's doing right though.
>>68876542
>>68877881
Stop rationalizing. IM 3 writers didn't know what the fuck they were doing.
>>68878162
The point is that he already had plans for Ultron but didn't bother. It was her vision that made him so gung-ho about a suit of armor across the globe.
>>68878180
In IM3 he has PTSD and channels it by making suits for every occasion. By the end, he overcomes it by blowing the suits up and admitting to himself that Tony Stark doesn't need a suit to be Iron Man. That's why you start seeing him use the Iron Legion in AoU.
>>68878376
>That's why you start seeing him use the Iron Legion in AoU
Drone better.
>>68876333
Just read the fucking comics for some good story and watch the shitty movie for some stupid ass crap CGI action.
>>68878442
>comic Civil War
Kill yourself.
>>68878442
>She-Hulk
Every time I see her, I get mad she's not in the movies.
And is that Namor behind her? Where's our Sub-Mariner, Marvel Studios?
>>68878421
Tony's theme in AoU is that he wants to be able to walk away from the fight. An autonomous robotic army like the Iron Legion would be perfect for that. The problem is that a concept like Ultron would be even better and he fucked it up.
>>68878421
>try to explain something
>WOW WHY ARENT YOU SHITTING ON IT
>>68878376
Nigger he already MADE legion before AOU started and if you watch the conversations Stark has with Banner it's made obvious that the only reason why he hadn't gone full armor suit around the world mode was because Banner wasn't on board before but he gets worn down by Stark in the movie and eventually agrees. Stark doesn't do a 180 during AoU he did it between IM3 and AoU (which btw would be obvious considering he went back to making iron man suits and another power core.
>>68878548
Calm down and rewatch Iron Man 2 so you'll get the damn reference.
>>68876799
>He steals some infectious disease in a test tube
Isn't that the bootleg Pym Particle in Yellowjacket uses in Ant-Man? I thought it was.
>>68876333
>Tony was as anti-government as he could be in IM2.
right, and then he had a crisis when he thought he was going to die/someone else came around that could create an arc reactor decades earlier than he anticipated, and realized he wasn't the hot shit that he thought he was.
he realized he needed just a tiny bit of humility and some oversight, which was the entire arc
did you even fucking watch the movie before you decided to shitpost?
>>68878475
>what is a collection
are you dumb ?
>>68876333
I don't get it. Why is Iron Man's helmet the same size as Cap's shield?
>>68877765
US army uses Rules of Engagement. Avengers do whatever the fuck they want as long as it gets the job done which is good but not for PR.
That's what the Avengers really needed. Good PR to spin shit in their favor. Accords wouldn't be happening if the people have their back. UN just wants to control them.
>>68878568
I agree that he did go back a little in between IM3 and AoU since he obviously needs more suits. I would argue that both he and Banner probably agreed to drop the Ultron project until Tony got driven again and convinced him because of the vision he received from Wanda
>>68878753
In case you seriously don't understand,it means Tony Stark has a big head you retard.
>>68878846
I'd say at this point we're at an impass. To me Banners reaction to Stark bringing up the project makes it seem like Stark has been trying to convince him but is failing to do so while ultimately not changing his own mind. I could see how you could see the exchange meaning that he had given up on it.
Still the fact that Stark was at all interested in Creating an armor suit around the world prior to the events of AoU shits all over his character arc in IM3 unless it was established as an idea he had between iron man 2 and 3.
>>68878753
It's from the Hulkbuster suit
>>68876333
>Tony was as anti-government as he could be in IM2.
That was a long time ago, and every movie he's been in has been about him becoming less individualistic and more cautious.
>>68878085
Where'd you get that from?
>>68878332
Agreed. IM3 was hot garbage.
I also still don't understand the love for CA2 Winter Soldier. It was hot garbage as well.
>shit is so retarded at Disney that the ABC Agents of SHIELD has Hydra now reduced to being a fucking mockery puppet, somehow an organization over hundreds of years just to bring back a fucked up "virus-like" alien mutant
Wew, you couldn't throw away and make HYDRA even more retarded than that shit.
>HYDRA is introduced as cultist group within SS/Nazis
>later just chilling, wanting world domination instead of being superior Ayrans with superior technology inside SHIELD
>later now somehow was all for a goal of bringing back a batshit insane Mr. Smith-like "Inhuman" that infects Inhumans and eats humans alive
I blame Whedon for this
I blame everything safe and stupid on Whedon
IM1, CA1, and Ant-Man are the only "good" MARVEL movies IMO.
Doctor Strange looks to be another one in my favorites list, since its finally a fucking departure from "insane technolgy that is never going to be even close to near invented in the next hundred years" that Iron Man started the ball rolling on.
>>68879011
That's fair, it's what discussion's all about.
