So I've studied the movie, or I just watched it maybe 9 times and have taken scene by scene notes. Gonna do a question dump.
BATMAN
>How did Bruce Wayne know that the White Portuguese was smuggling Kyrptonite? If he learned about it through some interrogation, how did he manage to learn that the White Portuguese was smuggling a mineral that had proven in secret testing to be extremely harmful to Kyrpyonians… without learning that the White Portuguese was the name of a ship? What thug did he torture that knew ALL of those things, but didn’t know that Lex was in charge or that they were talking about a boat? How did he even know it was being smuggled in if he didn’t know where it was going or how it was getting there?
>How did BW know what Kryptonite was or did? Luthor had discovered that Kryptonite hurt Krytonians doing secret testing. BW couldn’t have known about the testing, because he didn’t know that Lex was involved until after he found The White Portuguese. The fucking video evidence of Zod being cut by Kryptonite says LEXCORP encoded on it.
>Why wasn’t it weirder that a famous billionaire was hanging out at some shitty underground fight club associating with gangster smugglesmen?
>If all he had to do was use a sniper rifle to shoot a tracker onto the truck carrying the Kryptonite, then later break in and steal the kryptonite (off camera), why did he attack the heavily armed caravan at all?
>Did they cut the scene where Batman actually steals the Kryptonite, or did they never film it? Did they keep the murderchase in the cut to sell toys?
>Why didn’t they have Batman brand Luthor, when it would have paid off the branding storyline and given the audience some level of satisfaction? Why wouldn’t his character brand Luthor? It was why he was there. What is the narrative point of having him not brand Luthor?
(con't)
GO GO GO!
>>68120665
2
“There was a time above, a time before. There were perfect things, diamond absolutes. Things fall. Things on earth. And what falls, is fallen… In the dream, they took me to the light, a beautiful lie.”
There was a time above
>What did he mean by this?
diamond absolutes
>What did he mean by this?
And what falls, is fallen
>Why did they go with this line?
>How long before this fucking poem is meme?
In the dream, they took me to the light
>What did he mean by this? What dream? Who took you? What is the light?
a beautiful lie.
>Oh ok. Is this about God? This is about God isn't it?
>Is Batman an atheist? Has he rejected God because of his dead parents? Is that REALLY why he doesn't like Superman?
>What kind of edgy high school poetry club bullshit is that to open the film with? I get that it vaguely refers to his childhood before dead parents, falling down the bat well, Superman falling to earth/fall from grace, and being corrupted or whatever, but fucking why? Why open the movie with such a pretentious, vague poem?
>Is this Snyder's version of the opening image? Is this the thesis of the film?
>Is Batman an atheist? Has he rejected God because of his dead parents? Is that REALLY why he doesn't like Superman?
MARTHA
>Why would Superman trust Batman to go save his mom with under 10 minutes left? Even aside from the fact that they hated each other 5 minutes earlier, why would he trust a human to make it there and then karate fight his way to her in time? Superman can fly at supersonic speeds and could kill or maim everyone in the building in a few seconds, why wouldn’t he just take care of it? It’s not like he did anything else in the meantime. Batman leaves with 10 minutes left, goes and saves the day, and then we cut to Superman arriving to confront Lex, which would have taken him like 2 seconds. What’d he do for the other 9 minutes and 58 seconds?
(cont)
the theater cut is a mess
the director's cut is supposed to address most of your questions
This is the worst board on f4ggotchan.
>>68120665
1. The files he stole from Lexcorp
2. The files he stole from Lexcorp
3. Meh no idea
4. Tracking was a Plan B
5. They show the aftermath of Lexcorp being hit.
6. Because Batman has changed
>>68120665
>>68120838
3
MARTHA (cont)
>How did they think this was going to play well with audiences?
>What is missing that would ever had made that reveal and character reversal reasonable?
>When did they realize how fucked their story was that the biggest plot point hinges on the 2 protagonists' moms having the same first name?
DAILY PLANET
>Do investigative reporters regularly get put “on sports for today?” Wouldn’t there be a full time sports writing staff covering scores and local football games already, like in every newspaper ever? Does the Daily Planet not understand how departmentalization works? Aren’t they one of the biggest papers in the country?
>Why does Morpheus give Lois a news chopper ON THE ROOF because she said it was for personal use? Is it supposed to be implied that he knows Clark is Superman? Otherwise what possible reason did he think justified Lois using a news chopper, “not for work,” in the middle of a giant explosive news event happening outside? Even if he did know she’s banging Superman, why would he use a news chopper to send his favorite reporter into harm’s way to interfere in something she’s never going to write about? Was it because of all the “help” he assumed she would provide Superman?
>Is Morpheus a dick to Clark about the Gotham Bat story because he knows Clark is Superman, and doesn’t want him to get caught up beefing with Batman? Why would he reject a story about a dude with crazy billion-dollar military tech dressing like a bat and torturing criminals? How is the excuse that “nobody reads the paper” justification for burying exciting stories for sports score coverage?
>”The American conscious died with Robert, Martin, and John.” Great so now is the opening poem about this shit too? How many downfalls are we talking about here?
(cont)
>>68121060
>>68121060
>>68120665
4
AFRICAN BULLETS
>What was the point of the African bullets plot line?
>Why wasn’t there really any payoff with that?
>Why did we need 3 different scenes of Lois convincing some general to tell her the bullets were made by Lex? What did any of that lead to? They kind of mention it when Lex kidnaps Lois, but it’s not like he’s kidnapping her because she figured it out. He was using her as bait. It’s not like her investigation is his downfall or even serves a purpose for the audience. We already saw his henchman cause the Africa shootout, we already know he was behind it, why do we need to watch Lois learn that, when it ultimately serves no narrative purpose anyway?
SPACESHIP
>Why did Sen. Finch’s subordinate (apparently his name is Sen. Burrows) help Lex get access to the ship and Zod’s body? Did the Jolly Rancher represent that a bribe or extortion was occurring?
>Why was Burrows initially so enthusiastic and positive about helping this autistic rich kid that makes him uncomfortable creepily hand feeding him candy?
>Does Burrows also hate Superman? If so, why not put any kind of actual indication of his motivation in the movie when he plays one of the most important roles in the narrative?
>How did a lower-ranking Senator get Lex unlimited, unrestricted, and unmonitored access to a top-secret military base, the spaceship it was built around, and the only extraterrestrial body possessed by the government?
>Why did nobody give a shit that Mark Zuckerberg was continuously visiting and the ship, and mutilating and destroying ET evidence?
>The military commander in charge of the base protecting the ship had no issues with this?
>There were no NASA scientists losing their mind about this billionaire lunatic cutting the fingertips off their only alien specimen and hacking the ship they’d been studying?
>>68121222
>>68120665
5
SPACESHIP CUNT
>Why/how was Lex the first person to bother trying to turn on the ship? Nobody else thought to use Zod’s fingerprints on the obvious fingerprint scanner after 15 months of research and study?
>Why was there a genetic monster splicing machine in the space ship?
>Did Luthor know that was there when he wanted to get access?
>Why would the machine even be capable of knowingly producing “abominations” if it was something they never ever did?
>Why would they need the ability to splice their DNA with a completely different species with literally no common ancestor or similar DNA?
>How does splicing Lex Zuckerberg DNA with Zod's corpse create Doomsday?
>What was the liquid? How was it there? It didn’t get splashed out from the violent crash? What if the ship landed upside down? It didn’t evaporate in 15 months?
>Was Kryptonian reproductive technology designed to look like a giant symbolic womb?
LEX LUTHOR
>Why did Lex give special bullets that could only be traced to him to the badmen in Africa? If the point was to frame Superman for causing violence or whatever, why would you go through the extra hassle of smuggling in secret special bullets with your name on them?
>So Lex’s plan was to frame/blame Superman for a shootout in Africa to trigger a congressional investigation to have Superman summoned to congress so that a wheelchair bomb could then blow up congress with Superman there, so that everyone would be mad at Superman, which would then apparently justify Lex creating a doomsday weapon and setting it off randomly in the middle of Metropolis to kill Superman?
>Did he not think he could be connected to the wheelchair bomb? Why wouldn’t he think people would just assume that the wheelchair bomb was an attempt to kill Superman by the guy that created a bomb monster like a week later for that very purpose? Was getting caught part of his plan?
(cont)
>>68121465
just turn off ur brain bro, lol
>>68121222
>>68120665
6
LEX LUTHOR CUNT
>Why did Lex want to kill Superman again? Is it really all just that he’s butthurt that a God more powerful than him can exist?
>Was he actually concerned and interested in deterrence like he said to Sen Finch? Obviously not at the end with the ding ding ding bullshit, but at the beginning?
>How did Lex know who Batman was? Why didn’t the World’s Greatest Detective investigate who kept sending him mean notes?
>So did Lex kidnap Martha and Lois because he saw that the Bat Signal was on, or was it a happy coincidence that Batman and Lex both independently decided that Batman was going to fight Superman that day?
>If the Bat Signal was Lex’s cue to kidnap Martha and Lois to force Superman to fight Batman… why? Did Lex know that Superman had threatened Batman about using the Bat Signal and it was a big fuck you to Superman? Did Lex know that Batman was prep-timed up and the Bat Signal was an indication that Batman was ready to fight? How?
>If he knew the Bat Signal was an open challenge by Batman to Superman, why did he bother kidnapping anyone at all? Seemingly Superman would already be heading that way.
>What was Lex’s plan for Doomsday if Batman had killed Superman? Would he have still released him? Did he really even have a say in the matter? Seemed like Doomsday went full berserk the second he was done cooking. If Batman killed Superman, would Lex and Doomsday just kinda hang out? Would Doomsday just be on standby for forever then?
>What was Lex’s plan for Doomsday if Doomsday had killed Superman? Lex didn’t have Kryptonite and the military couldn’t kill it. Was there a heel command?
>Why did Lex blow up congress? Was it because Sen. Finch rejected his trade agreement? Why did that matter at all? He had already smuggled in Kryptonite and already had full access to Zod and the ship. Other than giving Superman bad PR for a news cycle, what did that accomplish?
(cont)
>>68121745
>>68120665
7
LEX LUTHOR CUNT
>So Lex, and only Lex, was able to figure out who Superman was through the Lois connection? She was literally dating a guy that looks exactly like Superman. Is Lex the smartest person in the world because everyone else is fucking retarded? Also, there wasn’t a better strategic use of that information than kidnapping his mom? Lex had Kryptonite and knew who Superman was and where he lived… so he kidnapped his mom to make him go fight a guy in a batsuit that is conveniently waiting for him?
>What’s the point of the ding ding ding bullshit at the end? How does Luthor know “bells already been wrung” or whatever?
>How was Doomsday the dinger and not Zod?
>Did Luthor use the spaceship as a dinger?
>When did Luthor learn about this “he” that is responding to the dinging?
>If they’ve heard the dinging that “the god is dead” and that’s why they’re coming, why didn’t they just come at any point before Superman was here? The God was only alive for like 2 years. Was the bell not dinging before that?
>Was Lex a poorly-portrayed depiction of a well-intentioned powerful person losing their mind ala Harvey Dent in TDK?
>Or a poorly-portrayed depiction of a conniving sociopath with a big thematic master plan ala Joker in TDK?
Seems like they kind of went for both, which was an odd choice. If he has a master plan that he was knowingly working towards the entire time, it’s a problem because the plan was dumb as fuck and he’s seemingly shown making some decisions impulsively or emotionally. If he’s supposed to be a character that gets broken somewhere along the narrative, it’s a problem because he never isn’t a high falutin manipulative asshole.
>Was being the bell dinger part of his plan?
(cont)
>>68122059
>>68120665
8
DREAMS
>What did the desert combat dream mean?
>What where the bug monsters supposed to be or represent?
>Why does he dream about Superman preventing him from getting Kryptonite right before that happens?
>Is Batman psychic?
>Why does dream Superman say, “she was my world, and you took her from me” before apparently ripping out dream Batman’s heart? Is Superman talking about Martha? Lois?
>What relevance does that line have in this movie’s narrative?
>Why is that line in Batman’s symbolic fear of Superman dream?
>Is it supposed to be an actual flashforward?
>Exactly how psychic is Batman?
>Why did they immediately follow the weird, prophetic desert dream with the shoehorned in Flash time travel “dream” that was jarringly different?
>Why did they make that appear to be a dream, but also show that papers will flying through the air after BW woke up?
>What was the point of the Man-Bat dream? Why did the movie need like4 minutes dedicated to Bruce Wayne visiting parent’s crypt, crypt bleeding, and Man-Bat jump scare?
>What exactly are we gaining from this being in the movie? How was it not cut for time? Where they afraid that people wouldn’t understand that fucking Batman is Batman because of his dead parents and also bats?
>Is this dream also prophetic? Was this a tease for Man-Bat?
>Why is Batman a psychic?
>Why didn’t they delete the Pa Kent dream? What did that have to do with anything in the movie? Superman is never even really confronted with a “eat hero cake while your neighbor’s horses drown” situation. Why is Pa Kent such a needlessly depressing fuck?
>Doesn’t his speech kind of directly contradict the entire point he made in MOS? In MOS he says you need to be willing to let others die to protect your own self-interests, but in BVS he tells a story about how saving his family’s farm fucked over his neighbors and he’s haunted by it.
>>68122277
>>68120665
9
SUPERMAN
>Was Superman already in Africa when Lois and Jimmy got attacked, or was he able to hear her from America?
>If he was already in Africa, why didn’t he bother saving Jimmy?
>If he was in America and heard that she was in trouble but didn’t make it In time to save Jimmy, how did he not hear when his mom was in trouble later? How did he not hear Lois get kidnapped? Why didn’t she bother yelling at any point when she realized she was being kidnapped?
>Why did Superman stop Batman from stealing the Kryptonite?
>Did he know Batman was trying to steal Kryptonite from Luthor?
>If he did know, why did he think it was cool for Luthor to have it?
>If he didn’t know, why wouldn’t he use his x-ray vision to scope out why exactly Batman was attacking a caravan of heavily armed mercenaries?
Even if he disapproves of Batman’s brutal vigilantism, he’d seemingly disapprove more of dudes with bazookas and mini-guns driving around town obviously escorting something illegal.
>Why did they do Death of Superman in this movie? It’s not like there was ever any suspense about whether or not Superman would be back, even before they showed dirt hovering over his coffin.
>Why is dirt hovering over his coffin? I get the narrative function it serves as a tease, but why is dirt hovering over his coffin? Do dead Kryptonians leak anti-gravity? Is he vibrating?
>Whats the point of constantly making blatant allusions to Jesus? What does it all actually add? What's the point? If you want to draw endless parallels between the 2, why not make some effort to actually have Superman be Christlike?
>Is Snyder worried that people may not get it if he doesn’t have TV talking heads literally ask if Superman is a Christ-like figure?
>>68122496
>>68120665
10
SPEAR
>If Superman couldn’t swim in proximity to the spear, how could he fly with it?
>If it makes him so weak he almost drowns in it’s presence, how was he able to wrestle and stab an electrified cave troll and stab him with it?
>What function if any did it serve having Superman dive down to get the spear, and then have Lois have to go and save him? Was it to give Lois a reason to be there? Why?
>Why and how does Lois know to go back and get it? Desperate rationalizations aside, what scene was deleted that would have made the Spear debacle less retarded?
>Why did she throw it in that pool in the first place?
>Why was there a random deep flooded pool of water in some industrial building?
>Why didn’t Batman go get the spear? He explicitly states he’s got to lead Doomsday back to that area so he can get the spear, but when he gets there he just kind of doesn’t do that. Seemingly that would have been the priority.
>Why did Snyder think that the comedy of errors spear situation was a good idea? What scenes or sequences where cut that led to that retarded distraction?
>>68122624
>>68120665
11
JUSTICE LEAGUE
>Why is Lois “the key to it all?” Why make that the teaser? Do they think people want to watch Justice League for more go-nowhere Lois sideplots?
>Why did Wonder Woman need to travel to Metropolis to collect a digital picture?
>Why bother with the Wonder Woman steals the server bug plot and then have her not be able to access it the info and have to give it back?
>Why’d she bother stealing it if she wasn’t set up to hack into super-encrypted shit?
It’s another example of plot progression with no purpose or progress, and Snyder is talking about how he couldn’t fit everything in with 2 and a half hours? Why not have her steal it, gain an upper hand dealing with Wayne, and then share the shit with the him.
>Bruce Wayne was the protagonist, why weren’t we introduced to the Justice League through his pov?
>Where is Luthor’s graphic designer?
>Why did Luthor even have the files? Did he want to kill the metahumans like he wanted to kill Superman? Was it all just a plot contrivance to introduce the JL members?
GENERAL NARRATIVE
>Why have Lex get access to the ship and the body in the first act? He’s already got everything he’ll need in the third act, and everything that happens in between is just useless filler.
>Why was it edited so overwhelmingly poorly?
Very few scenes comfortably transition into the next scenes, whether in terms of narratively, thematically, musically, etc. Lex gives a big lofty speech about Gods and Devils coming from the sky with a big music swell, and then we awkwardly cut to Bruce Wayne’s Man-Bat dream. They took 4 different narrative stories and it’s like there was a rule that they couldn’t focus on one for longer than 2 minutes without cutting to something else. The pacing and logical flow of the narrative is fucked.
>Is this because Snyder consistently phones it in during the edit? Or is this the producers' fault?
>>68122059
Dinger at the end was him knowing about Darkseid. In the ship he read the kryptonian wikipedia and learned everything they knew, which they knew about Darkseid. Superman being around is the bell ringing so now Earth is on darkseids radar and he probably has some plan or whatever
This is the best thread ever.
>>68123053
HOLY SHIT PEPE! CALM THE FUCK DOWN!
>>68122781
>>68120665
12
GENERAL NARRATIVE CUNT
>Why have Batman kill people in a story intended to set-up an expansive, canon universe? It’s his “one rule.” Everyone knows that Batman doesn’t kill, so why have him not only kill people, but have him needlessly kill people with no pause or remorse?
>Why literally have a news talking head call the bat brand a “death sentence?”
It's like an active fuck you to people that stupidly thought that DC and Snyder where for the first time really setting up movies based on the comics.
> If the idea is that he’s broken his rule and doesn’t give a shit anymore after Robin died or whatever, why not maybe make it a point to coherently convey that? Maybe throw a line of dialogue or 2 that way?
>Was the "death sentence" line only in there because it was supposed to force some motivation for Superman disliking Batman?
>If this version of Batman doesn’t/maybe never had the “one rule” of no killing, why is there still a rogues gallery of his enemies farting around? How is Joker still alive?
>Why ONLY use Dark Knight Returns for inspiration? Visually it works but narratively it’s always been seen as a non-canon reinterpretation of the character. They’re using batman’s post-Justice League retirement story to set up the Justice League, why do that?
>Why did the crippled guy scream about how he works for Bruce Wayne after he defaced the statue? For one thing, he apparently didn't anymore, and for another, who fucking screams about their employer on camera as they're being arrested? Did he know he was in a movie?
>What could practically be done that would improve the movie?
>What’s the theme? What was the unifying message of the overall story? Can it be summed up easily? Batman Begins was about fear. Dark Knight was about chaos. Dark Knight Rises was about pain. What about BVS?
Seems like its about a lot of things. Is it just about Power at the end of the day?
>>68120665
>>watches a movie 9 times
>>68121060
>How did they think this was going to play well with audiences?
I guess
>What is missing that would ever had made that reveal and character reversal reasonable?
IDK, Batman thought of him as not human, and learning that he;s about to become an avatar for his parents killer doesn't suit him, I get what they where trying to do, but I don't know if it worked
>When did they realize how fucked their story was that the biggest plot point hinges on the 2 protagonists' moms having the same first name?
Eh, again, it's more or less about him seeing him as someone with humanity
>Do investigative reporters regularly get put “on sports for today?” Wouldn’t there be a full time sports writing staff covering scores and local football games already, like in every newspaper ever? Does the Daily Planet not understand how departmentalization works? Aren’t they one of the biggest papers in the country?
apparently
>Why does Morpheus give Lois a news chopper ON THE ROOF because she said it was for personal use? Is it supposed to be implied that he knows Clark is Superman? Otherwise what possible reason did he think justified Lois using a news chopper, “not for work,” in the middle of a giant explosive news event happening outside? Even if he did know she’s banging Superman, why would he use a news chopper to send his favorite reporter into harm’s way to interfere in something she’s never going to write about? Was it because of all the “help” he assumed she would provide Superman?
I thought it was either implied he knows clark is superman or perry knows that louis knows superman personally
>>68121060
>>Is Morpheus a dick to Clark about the Gotham Bat story because he knows Clark is Superman, and doesn’t want him to get caught up beefing with Batman? Why would he reject a story about a dude with crazy billion-dollar military tech dressing like a bat and torturing criminals? How is the excuse that “nobody reads the paper” justification for burying exciting stories for sports score coverage?
He just wanted his employee to do what he wanted him to do
>What was the point of the African bullets plot line?
>Why wasn’t there really any payoff with that?
>Why did we need 3 different scenes of Lois convincing some general to tell her the bullets were made by Lex? What did any of that lead to? They kind of mention it when Lex kidnaps Lois, but it’s not like he’s kidnapping her because she figured it out. He was using her as bait. It’s not like her investigation is his downfall or even serves a purpose for the audience. We already saw his henchman cause the Africa shootout, we already know he was behind it, why do we need to watch Lois learn that, when it ultimately serves no narrative purpose anyway?
That entire subplot was put in to show that lex knew superman was clark and the military might've know lex was doing it
>Why did Sen. Finch’s subordinate (apparently his name is Sen. Burrows) help Lex get access to the ship and Zod’s body? Did the Jolly Rancher represent that a bribe or extortion was occurring?
I thought it meant that the senator would swallow whatever lex told him
>Why was Burrows initially so enthusiastic and positive about helping this autistic rich kid that makes him uncomfortable creepily hand feeding him candy?
>Does Burrows also hate Superman? If so, why not put any kind of actual indication of his motivation in the movie when he plays one of the most important roles in the narrative?
see above
>>68120983
>>68120983
>1. The files he stole from Lexcorp
>2. The files he stole from Lexcorp
But he wanted the shipment from the beginning, before he got the files.
>>68123223
>>68120665
13
Opinion.
The biggest problem is how poorly it's edited. Nolan could get away with big lofty ideas, and some plot holes and fuckery, because he knows how to edit a fucking movie.
>What is cross cutting?
>What is montage?
>Who is Kuleshov?
There are ways to convey ideas and themes that may drive the narrative. And there are ways to do that without dialogue. But BVS was not that. Every narrative and character arc is about a different theme, and the film isn't edited at all in a way that would allow you to tell the story and make the point visually and aesthetically or whatever.
I think the biggest way to fix the movie would be to make it much more episodic. Tell Batman's story for 20 minutes leading to the party, go back and tell Superman's story for 10 minutes leading up to the party.
Have both their stories converge at the party scene, but move Lex's speech to the end of the sequence and use his REEEE about God Paradoxes to then jump into a Lex episode.
Move all Lex scenes to after the party, make the party be the first time he appears.
Cut Lois' African bullets investigation to the last scene with the General guy.
Cut out essentially all of the Daily Planet scenes.
Cut out the Pa Kent dream.
Remove the opening with the fucking poem and the 1000th dead parents retelling. Instead cross-cut away from the attack on Metropolis sequence with parts of the dead parents shit to more actively create a parallel between BW being traumatized by the dead parents shit, and BW being traumatized by the Zod attack. Use editing to imply that him looking up at Superman smashing through a building fucks BW up as much as falling in the bat well. Cut from him looking up to the MARTHA line or something. Use the Language of Cinemä to tell the fucking story.
Move the Desert Batman dream to where the Man-Bat dream is, and combine all of the dreams and repeat the MARTHA motif since there's no way to get away from that horseshit.
I'd like to add something about the WW photo
Apparently she's after it so people won't find out her secret
But if she's only after the digital file, then the physical picture is still out there somewhere.
Probably Lex himself has the photo.
And if she only wanted to take it from Lex, it's useless because he still knows about her and who she is, and still has the physical photo, not to mention a backup of the files.
>>68121222
>How did a lower-ranking Senator get Lex unlimited, unrestricted, and unmonitored access to a top-secret military base, the spaceship it was built around, and the only extraterrestrial body possessed by the government?
I guess in this universe senators have that power?
>Why did nobody give a shit that Mark Zuckerberg was continuously visiting and the ship, and mutilating and destroying ET evidence?
>The military commander in charge of the base protecting the ship had no issues with this?
>There were no NASA scientists losing their mind about this billionaire lunatic cutting the fingertips off their only alien specimen and hacking the ship they’d been studying?
see above
>Why/how was Lex the first person to bother trying to turn on the ship? Nobody else thought to use Zod’s fingerprints on the obvious fingerprint scanner after 15 months of research and study?
nobody else had kryptonite to cut his skin off and I guess you'd need a warm hand for it to work
>Why was there a genetic monster splicing machine in the space ship?
It was just a regular birthing chamber, as seen in MoS
>Did Luthor know that was there when he wanted to get access?
No, he learned about it when he asked the computer for records from the archives
>Why would the machine even be capable of knowingly producing “abominations” if it was something they never ever did?
I'm guessing it had something to do with Luthor's override of the system
>Why would they need the ability to splice their DNA with a completely different species with literally no common ancestor or similar DNA?
>How does splicing Lex Zuckerberg DNA with Zod's corpse create Doomsday?
>What was the liquid? How was it there? It didn’t get splashed out from the violent crash? What if the ship landed upside down? It didn’t evaporate in 15 months?
>Was Kryptonian reproductive technology designed to look like a giant symbolic womb?
For the same reason superman can fly, space magic
>>68120665
>mfw I can answer all of them but not going to bother, I'll let someone else do it
>>68121465
>>Why did Lex give special bullets that could only be traced to him to the badmen in Africa? If the point was to frame Superman for causing violence or whatever, why would you go through the extra hassle of smuggling in secret special bullets with your name on them?
This doesn't make sense to me, but from Luthor's speech to Louis, it seemed like he wanted her to find them, for what reason IDK. and everyone knows that superman didn't kill those guys, but Luthor wanted to make it look like his very presence causes instability in regions to build a narrative against him
>So Lex’s plan was to frame/blame Superman for a shootout in Africa to trigger a congressional investigation to have Superman summoned to congress so that a wheelchair bomb could then blow up congress with Superman there, so that everyone would be mad at Superman, which would then apparently justify Lex creating a doomsday weapon and setting it off randomly in the middle of Metropolis to kill Superman?
see above + the hearings where an added bonus, killing everyone from the hearings also creates the narrative that superman creates trouble wherever he goes
>Did he not think he could be connected to the wheelchair bomb? Why wouldn’t he think people would just assume that the wheelchair bomb was an attempt to kill Superman by the guy that created a bomb monster like a week later for that very purpose? Was getting caught part of his plan?
No, he thought the man who scrubbed false god on a superman statue and the man who had the bomb inside his wheelchair would be blamed. He knew that the doomsday creature gave kryptonians a lot of trouble, and that the creature could probably kill superman, but he didn't know how powerful it was, his pettiness and hatred got the better of him. yes, but not before superman killed a human or died
>Why did Lex want to kill Superman again? Is it really all just that he’s butthurt that a God more powerful than him can exist?
yes, thats his character
>>68123777
This is pretty much equivalent to
>it's to deep 4u pleb
If you won't answer a simple question then I'm forced to believe that you can't
>>68121745
>>Was he actually concerned and interested in deterrence like he said to Sen Finch? Obviously not at the end with the ding ding ding bullshit, but at the beginning?
no, he always liked and admired tyrants; his father, zod, darkseid, but he abhors the fact that a powerful being considers himself good and pure
>How did Lex know who Batman was? Why didn’t the World’s Greatest Detective investigate who kept sending him mean notes?
It's never shown, however it's shown that he has an obsession with an meta-human or something similar and probably kept tabs on batman beforehand. Batman probably thought the screaming lunatic who defaced public statues sent him the notes.
>So did Lex kidnap Martha and Lois because he saw that the Bat Signal was on, or was it a happy coincidence that Batman and Lex both independently decided that Batman was going to fight Superman that day?
A happy coincidence + the fact that Luthor knew superman was getting ready to fight superman because he had stolen the kryptonite from his lab
>Did Lex know that Superman had threatened Batman about using the Bat Signal and it was a big fuck you to Superman? Did Lex know that Batman was prep-timed up and the Bat Signal was an indication that Batman was ready to fight? How?
he knew since the party who they where and saw what they thought of each other. he also probably had cameras on his dock and saw their confrontation of at least heard about it from his goons.
>If he knew the Bat Signal was an open challenge by Batman to Superman, why did he bother kidnapping anyone at all? Seemingly Superman would already be heading that way.
He guessed that a superman without stakes in the fight would've just flown away or not cared about enough to get involved
>>68123721
>>68120665
14
Opinion CUNT
Remove the sad montage of Superman doing hero shit. Break up and use the various shots of his hero shit to set up or follow Luthor's various speeches and shit. Use some 2001: A Space Odyssey Requiem for Soprano music or something to actually make shots of Superman seem intimidating and scary. Lex talks about monsters and gods, turn Superman into that.
Also, maybe oncce have music and that actually continues into the next scene.
Maybe cut the entire murderchase sequence, since it serves no purpose in the story and turns Batman into a War Boy. Batman shoots the truck with the tracker, makes chase, and is immediately stopped by Superman.
Move the scene where Clark discovers sees the thing about Batman branding people to the fucking first act.
Maybe push Lex getting access to the ship to after he splodes congress. Then it can at least be implied that there was an actual reason for him to do terrorism.
Remove all Clark Kent scenes after the congress bomb. Reduce Superman's screentime to only when Batman sees him. Turn him into Jaws while they're "hunting."
After Lois splains MARTHA and stops Bats from killing Supes, cut away to a sequence that shows what's happened from Supe's and Lois' POVs since the congress bombing. He got turned into Moby Dickjaws in the second act, and then now we go back and humanize his story. Plus it'll break up the shit and make pretend like Batman is learning what we are are seeing or something. Just put as much distance between the MARTHA reveal and Batman offering to go save MARTHA as possible. If there's 10 minutes of Superman flashbacks between the end of the fight and them being new BFFs, it may trick the audience into thinking it's less retarded. And if the audience doesn't know yet that Lex is making Superman fight, it'd be less annoying when Superman doesn't just explain what his predicament is to Batman.
Third act is pretty fucked after that no matter what.
>>68121745
>>What was Lex’s plan for Doomsday if Batman had killed Superman? Would he have still released him? Did he really even have a say in the matter? Seemed like Doomsday went full berserk the second he was done cooking. If Batman killed Superman, would Lex and Doomsday just kinda hang out? Would Doomsday just be on standby for forever then?
>>What was Lex’s plan for Doomsday if Doomsday had killed Superman? Lex didn’t have Kryptonite and the military couldn’t kill it. Was there a heel command?
It's clear that Lex didn't know how powerful doomsday was. He thought that humans could've killed it, but it might've had an agent in it that fucked kryptonians up(similar to how kryptonite isn't harmful to humans but FUBAR's kryptonians) or he might've been brainwashed by the ship, we'll never know, because the movie doesn't tell us
>Why did Lex blow up congress? Was it because Sen. Finch rejected his trade agreement? Why did that matter at all? He had already smuggled in Kryptonite and already had full access to Zod and the ship. Other than giving Superman bad PR for a news cycle, what did that accomplish?
To kill the one human who stood up to him(Finch), to kill the one man who could've confirmed collaboration with him(wheel chair man), and to keep building a narrative against superman
>So Lex, and only Lex, was able to figure out who Superman was through the Lois connection? She was literally dating a guy that looks exactly like Superman. Is Lex the smartest person in the world because everyone else is fucking retarded?
Yes, this is a complaint about every comic character with a secret identity though.
>Also, there wasn’t a better strategic use of that information than kidnapping his mom? Lex had Kryptonite and knew who Superman was and where he lived… so he kidnapped his mom to make him go fight a guy in a batsuit that is conveniently waiting for him?
It wasn't so much about killing him as making him bend to his will, then killing him
>>68123721
>>68124254
You opinions are horrible. You'd have left audiences waaaay more confused than BvS already did and you'd have ruined the emotional scenes pretty badly.
>>68122059
>>What’s the point of the ding ding ding bullshit at the end? How does Luthor know “bells already been wrung” or whatever?
>>How was Doomsday the dinger and not Zod?
>>Did Luthor use the spaceship as a dinger?
>>When did Luthor learn about this “he” that is responding to the dinging?
>>If they’ve heard the dinging that “the god is dead” and that’s why they’re coming, why didn’t they just come at any point before Superman was here? The God was only alive for like 2 years. Was the bell not dinging before that?
Snyder decided it was pivotal that a 45 second scene that explains this, not be in the film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-MUzvASr8s
>Was Lex a poorly-portrayed depiction of a well-intentioned powerful person losing their mind ala Harvey Dent in TDK?
>Or a poorly-portrayed depiction of a conniving sociopath with a big thematic master plan ala Joker in TDK?
a creepy egomaniac who's obsessed with superman
>Was being the bell dinger part of his plan?
no, he learned that later
>What did the desert combat dream mean?
injustice type future
>What where the bug monsters supposed to be or represent?
parademons
>Why does he dream about Superman preventing him from getting Kryptonite right before that happens?
>Is Batman psychic?
because superman(in this future/dream world) setup batman and captured him
>Why does dream Superman say, “she was my world, and you took her from me” before apparently ripping out dream Batman’s heart? Is Superman talking about Martha? Lois?
It seems marthat, but the flash shows up and says louis, so IDK
>What relevance does that line have in this movie’s narrative?
I guess it helps re-enforce batman's fear of an out of control supes
>Why is that line in Batman’s symbolic fear of Superman dream?
to give superman a reason behind his evil turn?
>Is it supposed to be an actual flashforward?
maybe, it's left unclear what it is
>Exactly how psychic is Batman?
he's not
>>68123412
>how
How, it's been pretty much universally decried as stupid, did they not test anything with any outside parties? Why would you spend so much on-screen time on something which plays such a pivotal role in the titular conflict without vetting it for quality?
>avatar for his parents killer
Is he supposed to be against killing all of a sudden? He's got no qualms about literally gunning people down, why would he balk at killing one more person who has a family? Does Batman not think that maybe the people he kills have mothers?
>humanity
Seriously, the Martha thing can't have tested well with audiences given how badly it's been received in cinemas, did they not try their ideas out before going full steam ahead with them?
>apparently
Why treat some characters with significant on-screen time with such contempt? Why include Perry at all if all you're going to do is imply that he's an idiot?
>implied
Why make us question a character's motivation at the point of his decision?
>his employee
Does he know who Clark is? Does he know he's superman?
>lex bullets
Why spend so much on-screen time on such unimportant plot points? Is the whole point to show that lex is a scheming bastard? That much is clear without this subplot, is the point to show that lex knows who superman is? Also crystal clear without this, is the point to show that the military knows lex is up to no good? Then where's the rest of that subplot? The military does nothing with this information, why include such things in the movie then discard them?
>visual metaphor
I honestly thought Snyder was above puns, but that's what I got too
>burrows
What is burrows motivation? Does he hate superman? Are we supposed to believe that he exists only to be told what to do by lex?
>>68123773
>burrows again
Does he have any agency of his own? Either he is capable and has this power, or he is only for bossing around in which case why the hell does he have this power?
>lex visiting the ship
Does burrows oversee these men? We're left with the sand questions about burrows
>fingerprint scanner
Did they really not think to bathe zods hand in warm water? Does it only sense living hands? Did lex combine somehow with zods fingertips to fool the "living zod hand" detector
>birthing chamber
What the hell is such equipment doing on a scout vessel?
>lex asks the archives
So his plan was just come up with on the fly? Either lex knew beforehand, and was trying to get into the ship for this, or he didn't know in which case why would he set his plans in motion without an endgame planned at all?
>why have the machine on the craft
Seriously, why the hell would they have this on a vessel for scouting
>space magic
Space magic
>>68124448
Yeah they may be. But I can't really say there are really any "emotional scenes" that work anyway in the current cut.
And as for going non-linear, look at what Nolan did with BB.
Mainly I just think that basically up to the midpoint, the movie would have been much better if it didn't constantly cut between each player. Like Batman investigating the White Portuguese is cut up by like 2 Daily Planet scenes and a bunch of Zod shit. I honestly think if you just ran only Batman for the first 20-30 minutes of the movie it'd be a lot better and a lot more coherent, thematically. Then you can have a coherent sequence with ideas and themes that are still fresh in the audience's mind, etc. Batman investigates the ship, discovers Lex is involved, has a big nightmare that ends with Superman threatening him in the dream. Cut to Clark Kent for the first time.
Could work. idk. If I'm still interested when an HD rip comes out I'll probably take a gander at editing it.
>>68122277
>>Why did they immediately follow the weird, prophetic desert dream with the shoehorned in Flash time travel “dream” that was jarringly different?
It's implied that it's a future flash running away from that future to warn bruce about it, but it's handled poorly
>Why did they make that appear to be a dream, but also show that papers will flying through the air after BW woke up?
it might've been a future that was prevented, but batman remembered it somehow, IDK, comicbook logic
>What was the point of the Man-Bat dream? Why did the movie need like4 minutes dedicated to Bruce Wayne visiting parent’s crypt, crypt bleeding, and Man-Bat jump scare?
he has mommy issues and projects his own demons onto his parents or something
>What exactly are we gaining from this being in the movie? How was it not cut for time? Where they afraid that people wouldn’t understand that fucking Batman is Batman because of his dead parents and also bats?
IDK
>Is this dream also prophetic? Was this a tease for Man-Bat?
my money is on no, but snyder shoved a time traveling flash in the film, so everything is on the table for him
>Why is Batman a psychic?
he's not
>Why didn’t they delete the Pa Kent dream? What did that have to do with anything in the movie? Superman is never even really confronted with a “eat hero cake while your neighbor’s horses drown” situation. Why is Pa Kent such a needlessly depressing fuck?
I think he wanted to tie it in with the theme of sacrifice, and the fact that actions have consequences, but it was done in a bad way
>Doesn’t his speech kind of directly contradict the entire point he made in MOS? In MOS he says you need to be willing to let others die to protect your own self-interests, but in BVS he tells a story about how saving his family’s farm fucked over his neighbors and he’s haunted by it.
no, in MoS he doesn't want superman saving people, in that scene, he's telling him saving people have consequences
>>68123412
>>68123561
>>68123773
>>68123962
>>68124225
>>68124383
>>68124573
>>68124726
These explanations only raise more questions
>>68122496
>>Was Superman already in Africa when Lois and Jimmy got attacked, or was he able to hear her from America?
I don't think he was in africa
>If he was already in Africa, why didn’t he bother saving Jimmy?
I don't think so because of the sonicboom
>If he was already in Africa, why didn’t he bother saving Jimmy?
he might've started going as soon as they killed jimmy, but he lacked the time to save him
>If he was in America and heard that she was in trouble but didn’t make it In time to save Jimmy, how did he not hear when his mom was in trouble later? How did he not hear Lois get kidnapped? Why didn’t she bother yelling at any point when she realized she was being kidnapped?
he probably knew louis was going on a dangerous mission and kept on the lookout for her, but he thinks his mom will always be safe in smallville
>Why did Superman stop Batman from stealing the Kryptonite?
I don't know if he actually knew batman was stealing kryptonite
>Did he know Batman was trying to steal Kryptonite from Luthor?
see above
>If he didn’t know, why wouldn’t he use his x-ray vision to scope out why exactly Batman was attacking a caravan of heavily armed mercenaries?
he probably didn't care about them and wanted to help bruce or at least stop him from being a violent vigilante
>Why did they do Death of Superman in this movie? It’s not like there was ever any suspense about whether or not Superman would be back, even before they showed dirt hovering over his coffin.
I have no idea, is he going to be superman full time from now on? did people even see him as a paragon of virtue until he died? why should we care about any fight he's in at all when he's already proven he can come back from death? it's not like civilian casualties matter in this universe
>>68120838
>“There was a time above, a time before. There were perfect things, diamond absolutes. Things fall. Things on earth. And what falls, is fallen… In the dream, they took me to the light, a beautiful lie.”
Wait is that actually the opening monologue?
>diamond absolutes.
> And what falls, is fallen
>>68122496
>>Why is dirt hovering over his coffin? I get the narrative function it serves as a tease, but why is dirt hovering over his coffin? Do dead Kryptonians leak anti-gravity? Is he vibrating?
superman manipulates particles around him to fly(?) at least thats what I gathered from MoS
>Whats the point of constantly making blatant allusions to Jesus? What does it all actually add? What's the point? If you want to draw endless parallels between the 2, why not make some effort to actually have Superman be Christlike?
what's the point of adding any allusion to any story? what's the point of making Nolan's batman George W. Bush? or making TDKR a tale of two cities?
>Is Snyder worried that people may not get it if he doesn’t have TV talking heads literally ask if Superman is a Christ-like figure?
he wanted to show how people in this universe would react to superman
>If Superman couldn’t swim in proximity to the spear, how could he fly with it?
>If it makes him so weak he almost drowns in it’s presence, how was he able to wrestle and stab an electrified cave troll and stab him with it?
will to want/ hero moment. same reason he could barely stand up against the terraforming machine in MoS, but destroyed it seconds later
>What function if any did it serve having Superman dive down to get the spear, and then have Lois have to go and save him? Was it to give Lois a reason to be there? Why?
a lady in the lake/a baptismal allusion
>Why and how does Lois know to go back and get it? Desperate rationalizations aside, what scene was deleted that would have made the Spear debacle less retarded?
maybe she figured out it was a kryptonian monster(?) have batman or superman tell her to get than have them go back to the fight?
>Why did she throw it in that pool in the first place?
IDK, for the lady in the lake/baptismal allusion or she doesn't want it near him.
>>68123384
Hey obsessive-compulsive disorder doesn't feed itself, ok.
>>68122624
>>Why was there a random deep flooded pool of water in some industrial building?
IDK, for the lady in the lake/baptismal allusions
>Why didn’t Batman go get the spear? He explicitly states he’s got to lead Doomsday back to that area so he can get the spear, but when he gets there he just kind of doesn’t do that. Seemingly that would have been the priority.
too far away or just too busy trying to avoid doomsday
>>68122624
>>Why did Snyder think that the comedy of errors spear situation was a good idea? What scenes or sequences where cut that led to that retarded distraction?
lady in the lake/baptismal allusion
>>68122781
>>Why is Lois “the key to it all?” Why make that the teaser? Do they think people want to watch Justice League for more go-nowhere Lois sideplots?
IDK I haven't seen the film/know anything about the intellectual property behind it. IDK. Apparently
>Why did Wonder Woman need to travel to Metropolis to collect a digital picture?
Maybe she has the original or heard that he somehow found a copy, her subplot is incredibly hammy a better question to ask is; How did wonder woman know Bruce was going to steal it? did she have technology capable of hacking into Lex's network if he didn't?
>Bruce Wayne was the protagonist, why weren’t we introduced to the Justice League through his pov?
Because Snyder wanted WW in the film, even if she doesn't work organically into the plot at all
>Where is Luthor’s graphic designer?
Probably Luthor himself
>Why did Luthor even have the files? Did he want to kill the metahumans like he wanted to kill Superman? Was it all just a plot contrivance to introduce the JL members?
I thought that he kept tabs on a lot of them to find out which one would've been the easiest to manipulate against superman and he figured batman would've been the easiest, but it was also a very hackneyed way of introducing the JL
>How did Bruce Wayne know that the White Portuguese was smuggling Kyrptonite? If he learned about it through some interrogation, how did he manage to learn that the White Portuguese was smuggling a mineral that had proven in secret testing to be extremely harmful to Kyrpyonians… without learning that the White Portuguese was the name of a ship? What thug did he torture that knew ALL of those things, but didn’t know that Lex was in charge or that they were talking about a boat? How did he even know it was being smuggled in if he didn’t know where it was going or how it was getting there?
>How did BW know what Kryptonite was or did? Luthor had discovered that Kryptonite hurt Krytonians doing secret testing. BW couldn’t have known about the testing, because he didn’t know that Lex was involved until after he found The White Portuguese. The fucking video evidence of Zod being cut by Kryptonite says LEXCORP encoded on it.
This actually took me completely out of the movie when I watched it. I lost most of my investment in Batman's plot because I was questioning how the fuck it even happened. It made no sense for him to track an information to Lex Corp when the only way he could have even possibly got started on the information lead was to investigate Lex Corp. They are the only people in the world that have a small piece of Kryptonite and were doing secret studies on its effects, if Batman wants to kill Superman with the big chunk of Kryptonite he's going to steal from the White Portuguese, he can only know about those effects and its uses against Superman if he had investigated Lex Corp. Was the movie really suggesting that his path of investigation was:
Lex Corp - Street thug - Human trafficker - The Russian - Lex Corp
It made one of the only concrete plots going on look completely retarded.
>>68122781
>Why have Lex get access to the ship and the body in the first act? He’s already got everything he’ll need in the third act, and everything that happens in between is just useless filler.
he doesn't get martha/louis/ or batman with the kryptonite till the third. also checkov's gun
>Why was it edited so overwhelmingly poorly?
IDK
>Is this because Snyder consistently phones it in during the edit? Or is this the producers' fault?
Yes
>Why have Batman kill people in a story intended to set-up an expansive, canon universe? It’s his “one rule.” Everyone knows that Batman doesn’t kill, so why have him not only kill people, but have him needlessly kill people with no pause or remorse?
every film iteration of the character sans Adam West and Clooney has killed people before. It's also a silly rule in general, "I kill so I don't become criminals."
So WW2 soldiers shouldn't kill nazi's, or they would become nazi's?
>Why did the crippled guy scream about how he works for Bruce Wayne after he defaced the statue? For one thing, he apparently didn't anymore, and for another, who fucking screams about their employer on camera as they're being arrested? Did he know he was in a movie?
to show his importance/the fact that he used to be somebody. I guess it's similar to an actor telling a cop, "do you know who I am?" when they get pulled over
>What’s the theme? What was the unifying message of the overall story? Can it be summed up easily? Batman Begins was about fear. Dark Knight was about chaos. Dark Knight Rises was about pain. What about BVS?
when to use power
>>68121222
Mark zuckerberg
>>68125659
>he doesn't get martha/louis/ or batman with the kryptonite till the third.
Yeah but Martha and Lois' involvement in the plot is completely inconsequential.
>also checkov's gun
Sure, but it's a doozy of a gun. Checkov's doomsday device. And generally, you'd want to set up the pieces so that we know they're there when they become plot devices. But Lex got all the Doomsday fixins, then did a bunch of other zany treason and terrorism and kidnapping, for no solid reason, then went back to making Doomsday. There's so much go-nowhere filler in the goddamn middle.
>>68120865
I think my issue with his thing about his director's cut is it's not like the theatrical is filled to the brim with plot-critical scenes. There's easily 20 minutes of cuts and edits that you could do without really losing anything essential narratively. There's 2 long dream sequences, 3 or 4 scenes between Lois and some General about the Lex evidence. Multiple scenes in the Daily Planet of Morpheus reacting to Clark not being at work. Could lose the news montage. Could have shorted the Wonder Woman plotline, probably could cut one of Lex's Gods and/or Monsters speeches.
There's so much shit in the movie that doesn't actually do anything , and he's talking about how he needs a half-hour more? What did he cut instead of the Man-Bat dream?
>>68125003
>I have no idea, is he going to be superman full time from now on? did people even see him as a paragon of virtue until he died? why should we care about any fight he's in at all when he's already proven he can come back from death? it's not like civilian casualties matter in this universe
Really it seems like Superman's death served the same narrative function as Harvey Dent's in TDK. People will rally around the dead hero, and instead of the Dent Act it set up Justice League.
The more and more I think about it, there's a lot of shit that they do that is like a bizarro version of something that they did in TDK. Is it some Lucas-style pottery? MOS did have a lot of parallels with BB, and BVS kind of turned Luthor into Joker and Superman into Dent.
>>68122781
>no killing is his one rule
That's never been his one rule.
He's one rule changes between "I don't execute/kill in cold blood" and "I don't use guns" sometimes both at the same time.
Superman has always been the "I don't kill" guy, but he has had to only on very rare occasions when there was no other option and it's always been a decision he's been shocked by (exactly like with Zod in MoS, which is why I don't understand people complaining about that)
>>68123777
Patrician mate
>>68124016
Just look at how much shit OP is crapping out and most of it can be answered with a tiniest of thought.
Props to the guy bothering to answer everything.
>>68126998
>answering everything
See
>>68124653
>>68124671
He's only raising more questions
>>68126998
Kek
>answering everything
Half his answers are "idk"
>>68126933
>That's never been his one rule.
Hence why I put it in quotes, referencing the line about it in TDK.
>He's one rule changes between "I don't execute/kill in cold blood" and "I don't use guns" sometimes both at the same time
Eh comic batman has been pretty consistent for decades with the no killing shit, and the Nolan trilogy made him not killing a major plot point, so now everyone knows about the no-killing rule.
Plus, BVS makes it a point to say that he does essentially execute people by branding them, and he has a dream involving a Batman shootout, and kills a dude with a machine gun splosion. There's no way he wasn't crazily defying the character bible.
>Superman has always been the "I don't kill" guy, but he has had to only on very rare occasions when there was no other option and it's always been a decision he's been shocked by (exactly like with Zod in MoS, which is why I don't understand people complaining about that)
Superman mainly has been about not killing humans, and even the more brutal comic canon versions of batman make it so that he doesn't kill because he was sadistic and thought it was better to leave them alive and crippled or whatever.
> why didnt batman brand luthor
Because that scene is the reverse of the joker interrogation in tdk.
In tdk he loses control/falls and - because of that - loses. Both the metaphorical battle for the soul of gotham as well as rachels life.
In BvS he reestablishes his control/rises (remember how the movie beats you over the head with the up/down heaven/hell themes).
Batman not giving in and branding luthor is bazman finally coming to terms with his baggage and believing that what he does matters again - after a whole movie of being excessively violent etc.
>>68125537
>Why did Luthor even have the files? Did he want to kill the metahumans like he wanted to kill Superman? Was it all just a plot contrivance to introduce the JL members?
Because Luthor's endgame was to make Superman a murderer by forcing him to kill the Bat, unleash Doomsday, and unite the Justice League himself to deal with whichever of them survived. The personalized icons serve as evidence of how he even looked forward to commercially "branding" his pocket heroes.
>>68127356
>tfw we finally get a villain that doesn't reveal his actual plot and people are too dumb to put the pieces together.
>>68127161
>Batman not giving in and branding luthor is bazman finally coming to terms with his baggage and believing that what he does matters again
Maybe. But that still falls into that cw-tier story trope shit where the hero murders a bunch of random henchman then conveniently decides to stop killing when facing the opportunity to kill the boss. I remember Arrow did it in pretty similar circumstances. He'll brand some human trafficker henchman but not the dude that literally blew up congress?
>>68127356
>Because Luthor's endgame was to make Superman a murderer by forcing him to kill the Bat,
Are you making a goof? So his endgame was to have the exact same endgame as TDK joker? Plus, it's not like Superman hadn't killed Zod, or the African dude at the beginning of BVS.
>unleash Doomsday, and unite the Justice League himself to deal with whichever of them survived.
That certainly sounds like a good theory of what his goal may have been. But if he was actually planning on not getting caught and being able to form the Justice League, he'd be retarded.
>The personalized icons serve as evidence of how he even looked forward to commercially "branding" his pocket heroes.
I'm ok with that rationalization. I mean, it's all essentially headcanon, other than the existence of the brand logos, there's no evidence of any of that in the story.
>>68127485
>tfw we finally get a villain that doesn't reveal his actual plot and people are too dumb to put the pieces together.
It's that he "didn't reveal his actual plot" as well as "everything he did was self-defeating, contradictory, and stupid." And it's that his character had over 10 minutes of screen time monologuing about Gods and Monsters and shit, while important exposition and motivation is left unexplained for fanboys to speculate about and rationalize.
>>68127356
>>68127485
There's nothing in the film to suggest this is his plan, you are simply making this up
>>68127614
>Plus, it's not like Superman hadn't killed Zod, or
the African dude at the beginning of BVS.
He didn't killed the warlord.
>>68127049
>>68127082
asking why did a director do this and why is the floor plan like x isn't really a question about film narrative or character motivation though
you might as well ask why the kryptonians speak english and then cry plothole or ask the same question about characters in the star wars universe, these aren't real complaints
>>68127819
See
>>68124653
>>68124671
There's bigger questions than "what is the floor plan?"
I could go through more of the posts from that anon who is """"""answering everything"""""" but honestly given his poor answers, the number of times he said he doesn't know the answer, and the lack of anyone else making an effort, I just gave up
Why don't you attempt to answer some of the questions ITT?
>>68127614
>>68127635
Everything points to it, even the flamethrower. He'd killed Zod, but that was murder in about the same way as shooting a spree killer is murder. He explicitly says that he didn't kill anyone in Africa to Lois, who was there. He pushed that dude through mud brick, not concrete.
Lex wants:
To discredit Superman
To push Bruce's buttons till he's ready to (try to) kill Clark.
To make damn sure that the kryptonite makes it into Bruce's hands in a way that lets Lex himself to appear blameless. That's why he was so pissed that they denied him his import license. It's the one and only point where he provably steps outside the law.
To kidnap Lois and Martha to draw Clark to him and blackmail him into bringing him Bruce's head.
To kill Martha (and Lois) by fire because of all the ways that Clark can kill a person, heat vision is the easiest to mimic.'
To unleash Doomsday to keep Clark occupied while his mercs track down and kill Lois.
To take Clark's place as the "savior of all mankind" through his proxies - the metahumans he's keeping tabs on, using the kryptonite weaponry Bruce made but (if things had gone as planned) died before having a chance to use. There is only one victor in the Doomsday fight - either Clark who he's just videoed killing Bruce and who he'll be able to lay the deaths of Martha and Lois on, or Doomsday, the alien horror that he'll also be able to lay on Clark.
That's right folks. He expected Clark to be no different than him("The oldest lie in America - that power can be innocent."), and will solve the problem in the most pragmatic way possible. He was wrong.
>>68127922
>why is the ship filled with liquid
>why is there a birthing chamber on the ship they used to scout planets to possibly terraform them
>why does snyder want to put allusions in a film
>why aren't there less scenes of x
these aren't real questions. and you could probably do these types of questions for every film
>how does batman know it's kryptonite and not know it's lexcorp
thats completely valid
>>68128126
>how does batman know it's kryptonite and not know it's lexcorp
>thats completely valid
Not saying that it's in the film anywhere, but because he had partial information. Let's say he'd partially cracked their code:
"The White Portuguese is bringing us the Whale."
Without context, he'd still very much need to know who or what the White Portuguese is even if knowing kryptonite was what WP was bringing.
>>68127982
You said
>>68125537
>Because Luthor's endgame was to make Superman a murderer by forcing him to kill the Bat, unleash Doomsday, and unite the Justice League himself to deal with whichever of them survived. The personalized icons serve as evidence of how he even looked forward to commercially "branding" his pocket heroes.
Then I said that there was nothing to support your theory, but you misunderstood, I get his plan, right up to the point where you think he's supposed to take superman's place as the saviour. That's what I'm talking about, discrediting superman, yes, that makes perfect sense and fits with what he's shown doing. But where's the evidence that he wants to take superman's place? He hates the idea of a Messiah, and actively tries to destroy superman.
>>68128126
Okay, how about
Why should a movie which wastes such a large amount of time on so much unfocused and ultimately pointless narrative be considered anything other than bad?
And you still haven't addressed any of the other questions
Why was the tracking device flashing bright red light off? Didn't Batman want the tracker to remain hidden?
>>68128669
Obviously the red light is part of the greater symbolism in Batman's arsenal, the red light symbolises his rage at superman and at the death of his parents in this case, you fucking pleb, how could you miss that?
Here's one thing that pissed me off and took me so far out of a scene I completely missed what they were talking about: the 2nd time Bruce Wayne meets WW, they're playing that famous Shostakovich waltz (if you've seen Eyes Wide Shut, you definitely know what I'm talking about). The way it's edited into the scene seems to imply that it's diegetic, playing in the background of this fancy function. But it's a full orchestral version! As though there's a 50-piece orchestra right behind them. So lazy.
>>68128669
visual cue for the audience
light is flashing = device is working
>>68128586
>But where's the evidence that he wants to take superman's place? He hates the idea of a Messiah, and actively tries to destroy superman.
Lex doesn't hate the thought of a Messiah, he hates the thought of not *being thought of* as the Messiah. All his philanthropy is self-serving and he believes exactly the same thing of Supes, because he believes that ultimately heroes and gods don't really exist, just people that are *viewed* as heroes and gods. Here's Lex with the tawdry, crooked halo that even he gets in the right crowd.
You could actually sum up his character arc as moving from disbelief to belief, although what he's come to believe in is the very darkest of divinities.
If Batman was going to chase the truck with the Kriptonite at that time why didn't he attack the mercenaries before they left with it?
>>68129297
Didn't you pay attention to his rambling monologues about God, and later being abandoned by God? No, he doesn't want to be a saviour himself, he can't stand the thought that someone could be good so he must tear down that goodness
>this entire thread
I can't understand how this movie even got released. Behind the scenes must have been chaos, especially in the editing room. Can you imagine the suits at WB watching rough cuts and shitting their pants when they realised what an overpriced omnishambles the film was going to be?
>>68129406
For the same reason that guerillas would rather attack a convoy than a base if given the option.
>>68129467
Looking at behind the scenes photos it looks like people were pretty miserable desu, compare that to based Chris Evans having the time of his life on the set of civil war
>>68129459
Oh, I didn't realize that villains always speak the truth, even when the entire movie is about them misrepresenting themselves. Sorry, I'll now quietly sit back and drink the piss.
>>68129493
>lex is only telling the truth when he lines up with my own head canon
Kys
>>68129492
>implying Chris isn't just relieved he's doing his last movie as Captain America
>>68129522
You're really going to dismiss the fact that he lies whenever it suits his ends? That's not at all important to you? Why would he start telling the truth then? He literally lies to everyone he speaks to, repeatedly,and at great length. The only time he doesn't is when the conversation turns to what he wants. He wants Clark to return with Bruce's head. Why? Well that's a whole different can of worms, isn't it?
>>68120665
3) no balls to use Matches Malone
>>68129522
Sorry, Perhaps >>68129628 was too verbose.
>Needs his villains to unambiguously explain themselves
Suck a dick.
This is a good autism thread
>>68129472
Damn didn't think about it, thanks
OP, I salute you. This fucking Malaysian internet board is so up it's own ass about being contrarian.
Thank you
>>68121060
The Daily Planet stuff is never going to make sense. There's no getting around how silly it is that no one there seems to notice Clark Kent's remarkable resemblance to Superman or his frequent unexplained absences.
DELETE THIS THREAD RIGHT FUCKING NOW
>>68120665
Superman's disguise is a pair of glasses. Shouldn't Bruce Wayne have taken one look at Clark when they were introduced and immediately realized who he was? That was the most preposterous thing in the entire movie for me.
>>68120665
>So I've studied the movie, or I just watched it maybe 9 times and have taken scene by scene notes. Gonna do a question dump.
Fuck off troll with these boring memes.
OP is the hero we deserve
>>68129472
That doesn't make any sense. If he had attacked the convoy before they had left he would have same amount of enemies and lessen the chance of them escaping and could have easily taken out a few stealthily (cause he's freakin Batman). By attacking them mid-chase he offers them a chance to get away to a base where there is more hostiles.
>>68120838
>“There was a time above, a time before. There were perfect things, diamond absolutes. Things fall. Things on earth. And what falls, is fallen… In the dream, they took me to the light, a beautiful lie.”
>There was a time above
THIS IS THE FIRST LINE IN THE MOVIE
>diamond absolutes.
FUCKING WHAT? HOW DO "DIAMOND ABSOLUTES" CHANGE?
>Things fall. Things on earth.
>AS OPPOSED TO WHERE? SPACE?
>And what falls, is fallen
IS GODDAMN BATMAN AUTISTIC? IF HE DROPS A PENCIL IS IT DEAD TO HIM? PUT YOUR FUCKING TOYS AWAY BATMAN.
>In the dream, they took me to the light, a beautiful lie.
IT'S YOUR FUCKING DREAM. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT DUDE?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yGVY-xVaSQ
When i come back i'll answer all the questions. Terrio here.
>>68129529
>implying it'll actually be his last Captain America movie
>implying anyone would be "relieved" not to have any more exceedingly high-paying, high-exposure work making fun movies that everybody likes.
>>68129472
But Batman isn't a "guerilla." He's a sneaky creepy ninja man. If stealing the Kryptonite from the base was such a breeze that it didn't need to happen on camera, it really makes the entire chase that much less reasonable.
And really this whole issue speaks to the larger problem of the terribly written script that repeatedly has characters do go-nowhere things that don't progress the plot at all. There are no consequences or stakes here. Batman's failure to steal the Kryptonite from the convoy ultimately amounts to nothing, since he can just steal it in passing 15 minutes later. And Superman's decision to stop Batman and allow Lex fucking Luthor to get his hands on a bunch of Kryptonite has no negative repercussions at all.
You could cut everything from after Batman standing shoots the truck with the sniper rifle tracker bullet, to the shot of the Kryptonite arriving at LEXCORP with Batman looking at the tracker location on the computer... AND YOU WOULDN'T LOSE ANYTHING CRITICAL TO THE STORY.
Action set-pieces without motivation, stakes, or consequences fucking suck. The way it was written and presented leave things so that there's no reason that this big stupid chase scene is in the movie, aside from the fact that it's a big stupid chase scene and they need to sell batmobile toys. Compare this sequence with the convoy sequence from TDK that Snyder was clearly aping. Batman uses and destroys the TDK tumbler in a desperate attempt to protect Dent from being murdered and capture the Joker. The story can only really progress because of Batman's action, and the consequences of the plot developments that happened as a direct result of the action sequence reverberate throughout the rest of the movie. The narrative reason why this set-piece is happening is clear and unavoidable, and the outcome is one of the most important parts of the story.
>>68123223
>>68120665
15
More Questions.
>When Wonder Woman arrives at the Doomsday fight and Superman asks Batman if she's with him, why does Batman say, "I thought she was with you?"
>Isn't she unambiguously "with Batman" on this?
>Did he forget that they spent the whole movie interacting with each other?
>Did he forget that he had just sent her all an email with all the JL shit and the pictures she wanted?
>Did he forget that he's one of the only people in the world that actually knows who Wonder Woman is?
>Aside from the quip factor, why would Batman think WW was with Supes?
>Is Superman dying set up narratively early in the film? Does him dying pay off a thematic point, other than "be their hero, Clark."?
>What is the point of MARTHA's monologue to Superman?
Be their hero, be whatever they want you to be, or, you know, don't. Whatever you want to do honey. World's your oyster.
>In the Lois and Superman scene on the balcony, why does it end with Superman saying that the Superman symbol of hope doesn't mean anything?
This is his last scene before he gets forced into the third act sequence of events that ultimately lead to his death, and he's completely jaded about the whole situation.
>If he's supposed to be Space Jesus, why have it so that he's begrudgingly manipulated into dying for humanity?
>Where the allusions to The Phantom Menace intentional?
First half of the movie is bogged down by a boring, ultimately pointless side plot about a fucking trade agreement.
The bad guy gets help (from Sen. Burrows/racistly asian trade confederation aliens) with no explanation of why they are helping, aside from the plot needing them to.
There's a confusing international/intergalactic crisis created by the bad guy in part of a convoluted master plan.
The Galactic Senate/Regular Senate is making problems for the bad guy and he tries to manipulate them. The bad guy ends up attacking Sen Finch/Padme as a way to get around them.
>>68140873
>>In the Lois and Superman scene on the balcony, why does it end with Superman saying that the Superman symbol of hope doesn't mean anything?
>This is his last scene before he gets forced into the third act sequence of events that ultimately lead to his death, and he's completely jaded about the whole situation.
This is my main gripe. He basically sacrifices himself only because of Lois.
>You're my world
>>68124726
>no, in MoS he doesn't want superman saving people, in that scene, he's telling him saving people have consequences
But the hero cake monologue isn't about "saving people." It's about saving his own livelihood. Pa Kent stopping the farm from flooding doesn't help anybody but his own family. He's saying that saving yourself has consequences.
I get that the apparent intention was to make the point that you can't be a hero for everyone, and trying to fix one problem may cause other problems that you can't fix, but the story itself is explicitly contradicting his entire point in MOS.
And it's made worse by the fact that this parable or whatever doesn't really have any specific thematic relevance in the narrative. Superman is never shown having to make a decision to "save the farm but let the neighbor's horses drown." It's just another depressing and cynical "big idea" scene that tries way too hard to be deep and edgy, and makes no effort to actually mean anything in the story being told. Lex blows up congress, Superman has this fucking dream, Superman tells Lois there is no hope and Superman is a lie, and then he is forced into saving the day at the end. Why backload the Superman story with all this nihilistic shit if his arc is supposed to end with him sacrificing himself for the greater good?
You're supposed to put the character in the low point, and then show them rise up from it if you want to do a redemption arc that works. TDK Batman is sad and has doubts after his "save the farm and let the horses drown" dilemma ends with Rachel being killed. But then we see him stay true to his ideals and rise above the depressing shit and not let it break him. But Snyder Superman is never really even shown to have many ideals in the first place, he's just always depressed and burdened and being told that being a hero is stupid, but continues being a hero anyway because his name is on the marquee.
>>68129628
Why he wants superman to return with Batman's head is simple
But where does anything point to lex wanting to take over superman's mantle as hero? It's completely contrary to his motivation. That's the bit you made up.
