Just watched "The Pegasus", a seventh-season episode of TNG.
When I first saw this years ago, I sided with Picard & Co. as I usually did - but now I find myself much more sympathetic to Admiral Pressman and his fellow conspirators in Starfleet Intelligence. The whole idea behind the Treaty of Algeron seems ridiculous: a treaty signed "in good faith" with, of all people, the predictably treacherous Romulans, a treaty wherein the Federation (which consists of not just Earth, but all members worlds as well!) agrees to not develop cloaking technology?
It's not like nuclear weapons, because a cloak isn't a WMD, it's a tactically critical advantage. Heck, forget the Romulans. What if you were invaded by some totally unknown hostile force? Sorry, you don't have the ability to defend yourself nearly as well as the Romulans or Klingons. How about the spying that absolutely everyone does? Cloaked ships in your territory, observing you, gathering all the information they please, but screw you if you want to do the same.
The more I think about it, the more I would stand behind Pressman, Starfleet Intelligence, Section 31, whoever all was involved in that conspiracy. I'd promise Picard that they'd be court-martialed... and then just disappear them, give them new identities, let them continue their work as ultra-covert operatives, etc.
Or am I morally bankrupt?
Gen-X and Millenials CANNOT grok, and will not ever grok, Gene Roddenberry's ideals.
>>67761747
Ok, I'll sacrifice Pressman as the fall-guy and make a public acknowledgment of the Pegasus' crew, but the work will continue.
>>67761625
You aren't corrupted.
>>67761625
Morally bankrupt but strategically wise.
>mfw this thread while watching The Lights of Zetar
ay
>>67761747
>>67761768
>>67761862
>>67761625
It's because Gene Rot and Buried wanted to not only allow faggots onto Star Trek the next Generation's season 5, but he also liked the idea of demilitarizing the United States; giving him hrt, boobs, long flowing hair and inverting his cock as it were, into a pussy.
>>67761625
It doesn't really matter, OP, since Starfleet usually develops countermeasures to sniff out cloaked ships every time the Romulans up the ante on their cloaking devices. They're practically useless against Starfleet and the Klingons. It's only useful against those who aren't familiar with it at all, like the Dominion before they wised up.
>>67761625
If you become the romulan to fight the romulan, then the romulan still exists.
>>67764342
>cloaked.
Try phase shift technology, senpai.
You can't sniff out something that's intangible.
>>67764187
What I never got about Gene was that he was an LAPD veteran and he became liberal as fuck.
>>67764351
STFU you tree hugging hippie lefty thunder cunt!
>>67764404
Were the romulans developing phase shift tech?
I don't remember, it's been decades since I watched the pegasus episode.
>>67764424
Leave our utopia alone!
>>67764406
His wife corrupted him, as Jezebels tend to do to Righteous men.
>>67764429
same here. But I remember it like it was yesterday. And no, they wasn't. Their spies told them something was amiss the first time it was used, and they returned when Riker's former commander got involved. But Picard dephasing the ship in front of them was kind of a dick move. Picard's a tree hugging hippie.
>>67764544
Did that guy get aids and die, yet? If anyone needs to be pos, it's definitely that whiny cunt.
>>67764632
>But Picard dephasing the ship in front of them was kind of a dick move. Picard's a tree hugging hippie.
I don't blame Worf for transferring to DS9. I'd get sick of Picard's bullshit too.
Which evil Admiral episode was better, TNG's "The Pegasus" or BSG's "Pegasus"?
>>67764424
>Wanting to use the cloacking jew.
Disgusting.
>>67764729
Picard's like that one leftie you wish would disappear, forever.
He's a competent officer, but he's a shitty moralist.
You have a weapon that could make you, at the very least, one of the most potent organizations in probably the entire galaxy if not most of the universe and you turn it over to the Romulans?
>>67764756
Best part was when that dyke got a bullet to the face. I clapped like a madman. Couldn't stand her. When she was Enisgn Ro I kinda liked her but only kinda.
>>67764765
giving your arms over to the enemy is the type of thing Jews in the West would do but at the same time not do if they were in Israel.
>>67761625
You're right OP. The Treaty of Algeron was one of the worst deals I've ever seen negotiated. We need leaders in Starfleet who know how to make great deals.
well the cloak tech is basically shit anyway, Starfleet never really has any issue detecting a cloaked ship if they're actively looking for one.
Not only that but Starfleet isn't a military organization, and they still outclass all other rival nations with superior firepower and defense on non-military ships.
Enterprise is primarily a science vessel, always has been while the Romulans and Klingons use warships.
>>67764853
MFGA
>>67761625
As with everything controversial (or almost everything) about Trek, they get it right for the wrong reasons.
If Picard was saying "Hey, cool out Admiral, we need to keep this tech but with a little more savvy.."
Which would be counter to "DAMNIT IT'S A TREATY WE SIGNED IN GOOD FAITH! They might be for deceptive than the KGB but it's more than a sheet of paper!"
This is why I absolutely love the Section 31 / Luther Sloan story from DS9 (who's actor was fucking perfect). Section 31 is like when the Inabran Tain says "Julian, the Obsidian Order is Cardassia." because it is what keeps it surviving.
It took me a while to realize Gene Roddenberry's idea of the future was so fraught with moral and ethical fairy tale bullshit that not only would it never happen, if it were chanced it would make us into completely weak and defenseless creatures.
>>67764888
In Truth, the Future's gonna be so bright, we're going to have to wear shades. Until some Brilliant person finally creates a black hole bomb and try and test it.
>>67764880
>well the cloak tech is basically shit anyway, Starfleet never really has any issue detecting a cloaked ship if they're actively looking for one.
So Starfleet can scan all of known space with a flooded ray of Tachyons? Cloaking technology was the KEY to reasons Starfleet was caught at a disadvantage on more than one occasion so it's clearly anything BUT shit.
>>67764880
>Not only that but Starfleet isn't a military organization, and they still outclass all other rival nations with superior firepower and defense on non-military ships.
Well a citation would be needed to make such a blanket statement about outclassing with superior firepower (Dominion, Borg, possibly Romulans and Klingons)
>>67764928
Yes, very bright for those smart enough to manipulate financial systems and be naturally selected to lead the world into the future.
But "in truth", for most common people it's far less than bright, it's a dull grey with laws written through engineered consensus which is accomplished, as seen with modern elections, by utilizing the lesser intelligent and educated masses as the voice of reason.
The future will be a crowded earth filled with a lot of poor, sick, and mentally unstable human beings, those crawling to get above that state, and those pimping out everyone underneath through the use of a controlled macroeconomy.
>>67764972
do I really need to spell out that they are the superior super power in the Alpha Quadrant?
and yes every once in a while they're caught off guard by cloaking tech but, it really doesn't matter because in 200 years from TNG you get the time division of Starfleet which effectively ends the need for large power space ships.
Even on DS9 they're able to detect cloaked ships fairly easily.
>>67765057
They're able to detect cloaked ships when they are within range of them.
Everywhere Starfleet isn't they can quietly travel without detection from magical subspace monitoring.
You haven't spelt anything out other than you are now moving your goal posts by saying "It don't matter, we got neato TIME SHIPS that are all theoretical mumbo jumbo so who cares if I'm wrong".
Also, it's make believe you know, they aren't the superior super power simply because the story revolves around them and not Romulans or Klingons.
During DS9, it was inferred that the Klingons could very realistically take out Starfleet so fuck off.
The Federation claimed that Starfleet is primarily a purely defensive force that spends most of its time doing scientific and humanitarian missions as well as peacekeeping duties should that be needed.
The Romulans put in this clause in the treaty and cite that if the Federation say they are peaceful and straight up, why would they need cloaking devices? They don't, the Federation doesn't need cloaking devices and the Romulans just called them out on it. The Federation would prefer peace instead of hostilities with the Romulans, peace is more important than a cloaking device.
They still gave them a cloaking device for the Defiant though.
>>67765133
>During DS9, it was inferred that the Klingons could very realistically take out Starfleet so fuck off.
lol no, the Klingons were a nuisance at best, that's why they made a treaty with The Federation in the first place, they lost almost all of their power and the empire was in ruin.
That was a central theme of DS9 for several seasons, they said that they couldn't handle the Klingons and The Dominion at the same time, which they couldn't.
literally vagina repellant: the thread
>>67765188
When Worf comes on he makes a reference to the Klingons returning to "the old ways" of hegemony, and later, prior to the Dominion's involvement in the Klingon affairs, there is a truce made because of the reality that either side could potentially cripple the other.
It's arguable that the founders had already infiltrated the high counsel but it was never explicitly stated so I'M JUST USING IT AS A REFERENCE AGAINST YOUR ARGUMENT...
>..sir
>>67765233
Truce was made because the Klingon moon exploded crippling the empire, plus the empire was corrupt as fuck.
This was started way back in TNG and then in Star Trek 6, it was resolved in DS9.
>>67765233
The problem with the Federation is that it doesn't really invade and conquer. It has the ability and manpower to, but it's all about peacekeeping and defense. The Federation militarily and technology wise out match the Klingons by several magnitudes. It's just that they have so much space to cover, it's a pain in the ass to wage any war with the full resources of the Federation.
Federation-Cardassian war lasted years, from what we hear the Federation just fought a defensive war and it was considered a skirmish war with a handful of ships. The Cardassians consider it a major war of conquest and defeat.
That's why getting the Romulans into the Dominion War was super important, it meant the Federation could move starships and resources from the Romulan border.
YET ANOTHER PATSY
FOR FEDERATION DO-GOODERS!
>At the end of the epsiode, Picard tells Gul D̶u̶k̶a̶t̶ Macet "Maxwell was right.." then expositions on about science vessels close to the demilitarized zone, etc. etc.
>>67765292
Yesterday's Enterprise doesn't make that much sense because of Star Trek 6 which came out a few months later. The Klingon's after Star Trek 6 should never be able to stomp the Federation like they seemingly did in that episode.
>>67761747
>gene roddenberry's ideals
He was only involved in the first 2 seasons of TOS and first 2 seasons of TNG. He spent most of the 70s and 80 being cucked out of creative control by the you-know-whews so Star Trek generally has very little to do with his "ideals"
>>67765372
Picard just doesn't want to start another pointless war for the Federation.
>>67765381
FUUUUCK
I never thought about this, probably because I didn't watch the old films until recently.
But, re-analyzing that part of the Star Trek history, it was only like 20-30 years in the past, not 100 or so, much could've changed.
>>67765353
There are no specifics made from any admirals or captains, etc., that the Romulans couldn't take out Starfleet. The Cardassians we understood were much more of just a "threat" but not a potentially dangerous one.
>>67765416
They still worked within his boundaries in TNG up until the later seasons which were shit. Then we got Voyager.
They kind of cheated on DS9 to get around it by putting the Federation into other alien cultures.
>>67765205
I hear there are some pretty hot 7/10s at some conventions, especially now with JJverse ideals working their way into teen girls' heads.
I think the thing about the Treaty of Algeron that makes it so hard to swallow is that I'm 100% certain it's never shown to be anything but completely one sided.
The Romulans gave up nothing, except maybe agreeing to stay on their side of the Neutral Zone? Which equally applies to the Federation.
>>67765381
For what it's worth, I detest Star Trek 6.
all they talk about in that episode in the Second Khitomer Accords but the movie is about the First Khitomer Accords but they always claim that Worfs parents were killed in the Second Khitomer Accords, the whole affair is convoluted as fuck.
>>67765454
I agree with this poster about Gene's ideals being pumped into the show through various means story-wise.
Rick Berman explicitly stated "I agreed and admired Gene's vision of the future and tried to keep it alive throughout the rest of TNG." in a Blu-Ray interview. He was executive producer carte blanche after Gene's death.
This is why I like DS9 and VOY strictly for them being dark atmosphered and delving further into the counter-Starfleet reality and not so "here, take the soma" attitude that TNG had (even though it is far better than VOYager and at least equal to DS9).
>>67765460
>>67765542
Gene's ideals work perfectly within the confines of the Federation, it is shown time and again that they are incompatible with anything outside of that comfort zone.
>>67765549
yeah these girls look like they REALLY know their trek trivia
>>67765482
Worf's parents had nothing to do with the 2nd Accords. The Khitomer Massacre had nothing to do with the accords.
The 2nd Khitomer Accords were just an extension of peace and banning of certain weapons + research of them.
>>67765591
I saw hotter girls at Wondercon working the Star Trek booth that would ask you to quiz them.
>>67765591
tribbles lmao
>>67765542
It's not just the ideals, it's the set up. He basically said to keep crew friction to a minimum, that in the future we react to things in a certain way. It made things difficult for the writers which is why we got some of the best stories in TNG. Instead of force melodrama, the friction was usually over more philosophical subjects rather than bitching about a woman.
>>67765613
are you sure?
because they mix it up with the Romulans attacking the First Khitomer Accords in Star Trek 6.
They retconned it a few times throughout the various series.
>The Federation preaches muh morals muh peace all day every day to every other fucking race and alliance in the galaxy
>is maintained by a secret organisation that is more ruthless than the Tal Shiar
Kind of ruined Rodenberry's vision
>>67765681
Khitomer was a Klingon colony probably closed to Federation space. That's where the signing in Star Trek 6 took place.
Romulans attacked it, wiped out thousands of colonists years and years later.
The "Second Accords" were never seen, just mentioned, don't know if they were signed on Khitomer or they just used the name.
>>67765616
>>67765693
Section 31 is controversial for a reason, but it's not like the Tal Shiar or any of that shit. Except in Star Trek Into Darkness, but that's explained away for the same reason Starfleet looks more advanced.
>>67765585
I may be wrong, and it could be on Memory-Alpha, but I think there was an executive at Desilu who claimed that the show's primary architect was a "presumed communist" but I give Gene the benefit of the doubt in such situations because it was mainly just "A Jap, a Negro, and a Russian" that was mainly pissing people off.
But, to your sentiment, yes, the comfort zone of "we're just magically non-adversarial because we don't need money and only aspire to keep star ships running and playing in holosuites for our entire lives" REALLY helps keep this morality/ethical purity in existence throughout the show.
>>67765693
Actually, made Roddenberry's vision less plausible but still feasible because it gave it an actual organization meant to supercede STUPID human sentiments that would likely have gotten them killed in a universe that is blind to their feelings.
>>67765788
I think Star Trek TNG got it right by trying to write humans as different to us, almost alien in a lot of ways. Not all of his ideas made it through, but stuff like that episode where the kid's parents died - Gene believed that in the future, humans would have a greater acceptance of death and mortality.
So no entire episodes of people dealing with deaths or their own death. Like when Picard was minutes away from dying, he was reading a book and having a chat with Data.
>>67765788
That feel when Gabriel Bell shares your birthday.
>>67765759
