>There are heroes on both sides
what?
>>62971077
Good is a point of view, Anakin
>>62971077
Sheev
/thread
anti-heroes are still heroes
>>62971077
Sheev was a good friend, from a certain point of view
Dooku is a hero, and, as far as episodes II and III are concerned (fuck the EU shit), he did literally nothing wrong.
>>62971077
It's like WW2, everybody on each side had their heroes that were defending their freedoms.
>>62971077
Ok, let's get a run-down, tell me if you think any of these guys are heroes:
Sheev
Count Dooku
General Grevious
The Banking Clan
The BWEEEOOOEEE Techo Union
The Japanese Fish People
I understand what they meant by that line. It's supposed to suggest that neither side of the dispute is absolutely correct.
It just doesn't work because:
1. One side is comprised entirely of emotionless robots
2. We never do learn what caused the Clone Wars, other than a bunch of bugs attacking a bunch of jedi on a desert planet and the republic sending clones out to fight the bugs, and this little skirmish just sort of escalating into a full-blown galactic war. The point is, we have no idea what either side is fighting for and if you're not fighting for anything, then you can't be a war hero.
>>62971141
>We never do learn what caused the Clone Wars
retard alert
>>62971170
Explain in detail what disagreement caused the war, and what each side is fighting for.
Make sure to only use information established in the movies. No head canon or EU shit.
>>62971141
>We never do learn what caused the Clone Wars
It says it right in the opening crawl of Episode II, Count Dooky is leading a separatist movement. Characters keep mentioning the ineffectiveness and corruption of the senate, and Dooku is called a political idealist.
>>62971077
It's the Traditional definition of HERO. Not the modern "good guy" meaning.
>>62971208
Sheev orcestrated the war to get emergency powers.
This is all shown in Episode 2.
>>62971212
>Characters keep mentioning the ineffectiveness and corruption of the senate
When do they mention that after Episode 1? In Episode 1, Padme talks about that, but then they fix the situation by electing a new Chancellor, so that's irrelevant.
I don't think they ever talk about those things after Episode 1. Can you prove me wrong?
Also, yes Dooku is leading a separatist movement, but it's never established why anybody is separating from the Republic. There's even a scene where all the separatists leaders are meeting with Dooku and they don't even explain it there.
>>62971238
My point is that we don't know why these two armies are fighting each other, and how the people fighting the war on either side can be considered "heroes".
>>62971208
Clone Wars is canon too asshat.
The republic was being divided because of the trade federation, so Palpatine pulled an Abraham Lincoln and went to war over that shit.
>be Sith lord
>do something heroic
>other Sith consider you a hero
It's all about perspective. You wouldn't say they are a hero, but other people do.
>>62971280
The clones belong to the Republic. The seperatists are, as their name implies, trying to seperate from the Republic. Sheev, in order to become the emperor, brings the Republic to war with the seperatists over the impending secession.
>>62971296
That doesn't dispute my point at all. If anything it supports my point.
Since neither side is fighting for anything in particular, nobody on either side can be considered a hero.
>>62971322
So there is no reason. You admit that now. People are separating from the Republic because.... time for fighting now.
>>62971286
Clone Wars is barely canon and it doesn't even matter because 90% of the people watching the movie isn't going to be familiar with anything that happened in this children's cartoon.
>>62971298
There are only two Sith though.
Is that what the title crawl meant with it's line about heroes? Dooku is a hero in the eyes of Sheev?
>>62971367
It might not be saying "there are currently heroes on both sides"
It could just be saying "there are heroes on both sides...in history"
The separatists want to leave the republic. Reasons being taxes are too high and the republic is corrupt. Even if they don't explicitly state all the reason why they want to leave in the film you should be able to under the conflict as Separatists want to leave and believe they have a right to do so and the republic don't want to let them leave and then tensions escalate into full blown war. It's a pretty obvious american civil war analogy, if anything there's too much exposition explaining the reasons for war in the film.
>>62971391
>>62971392
Look, neither of you are getting this. I can't believe I have to break this down even further.
It's never established what purpose or goal the separatists are fighting towards. As far as we know, there is no purpose that they're fighting towards. In order for somebody on their side to be considered a hero by them, said hero would need to be making great strides towards that goal that they're fighting towards. That goal does not exist though, which means that nobody is fighting towards that goal. You can't fight toward a goal that does not exist in anybody's mind.
No cause/purpose/goal = no hero figure.
>>62971077
Poetry.
>>62971433
Were the separatists seceding because of slavery being outlawed by the republic?
>>62971093
What is the source of this new Dank Sheev?
>>62971433
>Reasons being taxes are too high
There's some head canon.
>if anything there's too much exposition explaining the reasons for war in the film.
By "too much", you mean absolutely none. Correct?
There are expository scenes where they keep repeating the fact that separatists are separating from the republic, but none of them explain the reasons for any of this.
>>62971134
Dooku and Grievous would easily qualify as heroes.
>>62971530
You sure do know a lot about movies you seem to hate.
Reminder that nothing in the prequels makes any sense, not even the opening crawls
Like in TPM when the opening crawl tells us Obi Wan is a Jedi Knight but he doesn't actually become a Jedi Knight until later in the film, it's just sloppily-written lazy shit no one even bothered to check
>>62971530
The trade Federation mention not liking the high taxes in phantom menace and I think they do in attack of the clone wars aswell. Even if they don't mention it in Clone wars if you've seen it in phantom menace you can easily put 2+2 together.
>>62971620
They are both in the jedi order dumbfuck.
Do Naboos poo in a loo?
>>62971641
DESIGNATED PLANET CORE
>>62971134
>Sheev
Not Hero(from my point of view)
>Count Dooku
Hero
>General Grevious
>The Banking Clan
>The BWEEEOOOEEE Techo Union
>The Japanese Fish People
Heroes They just didn't want to be part of the Republic
>>62971530
>head canon
The whole plot of Episode I is started by the taxation of trade routes, the Trade Federation obviously don't like the taxes and end up being a big part of the separatists.
I'm not saying it's good writing, but the reasons are there.
>>62971620
Quigon was a master. In the crawl knight doesn't refer to rank
>>62971077
Being a space "Opera", George was perhaps using the word "Hero" in the more classical sense. That is, not necessarily someone that's "good", but someone of grace or nobility willing to fight to the death for some ideal or cause.
>>62971661
NABOO IN A LOO
>>62971620
these movies are so shit
>>62971703
>post counter didn't go up
samefag pls
>>62971322
But why go to war? You dont need to go to war over a secession. Lots of countries have become independent without fighting, and the Republic clearly doesn't want to go to war. Sheev is just using it as an excuse, but they didnt even need to bring the clones JUST to rescue Anakin and ObiWan.
Ugh my brain hurts just thinking about this.
>>62971242
>lisa made a funny noise lmao
this is really fucking garbage
>>62971634
he's not a jedi knight though, you dumbfuck.
can you not fucking read?!
>>62971462
Look, as far as the story is concerned, Clone Wars is 100% canon now. No 90% like it was during the "EU shit" days. So regardless, whether or not people watch it, it's still going to be a prestablished thing that the trade federation is attempting to break away from the Republic.
Furthermore, it's dumbfounding how you can't understand the traditional idea of a hero. A hero isn't someone you have to root for. It's a character that fights for glory, and is burdened by questions of morality. In the Iliad, there are heroes on both sides. Almost all of them are douchebags, and their personalities have nothing to do with what the war is really about. Same here. There are heroes on both sides, despite the whole point of the war being ambiguous, if you're just looking at the story through the movies. But since the children cartoons are now considered as important as the movies, that's a pretty stupid thing to do.
>>62971093
NOW GO KILL SOME YOUNGLINGS... FOR GOOD
>>62971634
>>62971670
>prequel apologists
Why do you guys even exist
>>62971769
>You dont need to go to war over a secession.
It's a pretty obvious theme in the prequels that allowing the republic to split up is a bad thing, in fact Padme says there need to be negotiations to keep the separatists in the republic. A lot of Episode II is about a vote to create a republic army so obviously quite a few people in the senate want one.
>they didnt even need to bring the clones JUST to rescue Anakin and ObiWan.
Did you miss the fact that it was a massive separatist base?
>>62971833
Nostalgia and cause we grew up with them, so it's still "our Star Wars". I personally think they're shit, but what the hell. Might as well find the good in something and defend it. Also, I'm a sucker for defending an accusation that I think is unjustly made. The "Heroes on both sides" thing is one such point.
>>62971868
>I'll make up vague responses so that no matter what if you read it my way, I'm right! :DDD
Kill yourself.
>>62971242
>avaton comes before acroilius
>>62971134
>the millions of droids who gave their lives don't count as heroes
>>62971890
You said "the Republic clearly doesn't want to go to war" but the plot of Episode II is about how the Republic is divided on the issue and that war is clearly on the table for them.
>>62971868
>Did you miss the fact that it was a massive separatist base?
So? It still wasn't an incident big enough to need that massive invasion. Two Jedi knights would've been able to rescue them.
Also, just because they dont want them to secede doesn't mean they need to go to war. Like Padme says, there needs to be negotiations. Good or bad for the Republic, if these planets want nothing to do with them (which is never explained why, or how they would do this, specially the trade federation. Wouldn't they want to be part of the largest association of planets in the universe to trade with, taxes or no taxes?) they can just vote and separate.
>>62971936
That wasn't me, that was someone else. They're not divided on the issue, they're divided on creating an army (which you'd assume they'd fucking have already after so many fucking generations).
No one raises the matter of should we go to war against the separatists at any point. They just care that Padme might get shot which is a petty vendetta anyway.
>>62971462
>the plot of Star Wars is too complex for me
>>62971996
There's a difference between complex and badly written. The plot of the SW prequels doesn't make any sense, not because its complicated or intricate, but because it was rushed and written by someone who doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.
>>62971928
>droids who gave their lives
>droids
>lives
>>62971134
Dooku is a hero of the separatist union.
Hell, he's closer to Dark Jedi than Sith.
>>62971077
> Be Sheev
> Realize the republic is crumbling under beaurocracy
> Want to unite all the planets
> Want to instill order in the galaxy
> A bunch of ancient monks on a power trip are getting too influencial
> Ancient monks are known for their ability and willingness to use magic to manipulate people
> Know the ancient monks won't let you push them out of power
> Create clever plan to get the people of the galaxy to willingly follow you
> Ancient Monks throw a bitch fit because MUH FORCE
> The Force needs to be balanced anyway, 500 Monks vs 2 Sith is hardly balanced
> One of the monks attacks you, you defend yourself but become horribly disfigured.
> Order 66
> Everything according to plan
> Balance and order, everyone is happy.
Sheev did nothing wrong.
anakin is a fallen hero
>>62971077
>yfw Anakin was the hero on both sides
>>62971970
>So? It still wasn't an incident big enough to need that massive invasion. Two Jedi knights would've been able to rescue them.
You're right about that part
>they can just vote and separate.
But you're assuming they can do that and everyone would be fine with it. A republic of 1000 generations blah blah blah collapsing is a bad thing for the people living in it.
>they're divided on creating an army (which you'd assume they'd fucking have already after so many fucking generations).
I agree with on that, doesn't make sense that the government wouldn't have any soldiers at all.
>No one raises the matter of should we go to war against the separatists at any point.
They're talking about dealing with the separatists and creating an army because of the crisis, the implication of a war is clear.
>>62972048
Yeah, what I'd call them is under-written. The story is in there but it doesn't come across clearly and there are long sections that lead nowhere. Script needed a few more edits.
THERES 5 FUCKING STAR WARS THREADS ON THE FRONT PAGE
>>62972098
>beaurocracy
>Power to the beautiful
I think you mean bureaucracy
>>62972131
thanks for counting :^)
>>62972059
>>62971928
Shit tier sculptures lads.
>>62972138
Yeah I can never remember the spelling and spell check is no help.
>>62971620
so it's like someone being referred to as officer in their role when they're really only an assistant
next to no difference.
this is a shitty criticism . You just want to think you've made some staggering reveal
>>62972126
>But you're assuming they can do that and everyone would be fine with it.
You're absolutely right. I am assuming because the movie doesn't fucking tell me.
Why not have the separatists try to separate and then the republic are huge dicks to them, thus giving them a reason? Instead its just war because war.
Also it makes no sense for the Jedi to get involved in this war. If it was against an invading force that wanted to submit the galaxy to their power (WHICH IS WHAT IT IS BUT THEY DONT SAY IT BECAUSE HE ALREADY IS RULING THE REPUBLIC ANYWAY) then it would make sense but its not overtly shown that this is the case.
The Jedi wouldn't get involved in a politic dispute, because they are monks, a religion, not part of the government.
>>62972199
>You're absolutely right. I am assuming because the movie doesn't fucking tell me.
That's not a reason to assume it. You could just as well assume it's against the republic's constitution.
Like I said, it's underwritten but filling in the holes with your own fan theory and then complaining that it doesn't work is silly.
Sheev ended the Republic's slave trade
>>62972217
What fan theory? I have to fill in the holes because there are holes! You saying that its against the constitution is also fan theory.
And again, the Republic is sold to us as a peace loving culture, with the Jedi and all that. Even with a corrupt government (that they NEVER show is corrupt, by the way, except for Palpatine, and he's the main bad guy!) they dont seem to want war. We are told that they are divided on the matter but we are never ever shown this.
Underwritten is a massive understatement.
>>62971350
>trying to reason with starwarsfags
>>62971134
>the Banking Clan
they just wanted to sign the treaty
>anakin, i can help you save your wife's life
>okay
>good, good. now, i need you to slaughter a dozen children
>>62972257
>What fan theory? I have to fill in the holes because there are holes!
You don't HAVE to fill in holes. It's fiction, you can just accept that the writing is bad and doesn't explain things.
>You saying that its against the constitution is also fan theory.
That was my point. Both are fan theories because the movie doesn't explain it. Criticize the movie for leaving gaps, not for something you made up to fill the gaps yourself.
>>62971077
I love how much Lucas amped up this crawl after everyone bitched about how boring the crawl (well, and plot) were in Ep 1.
WAR! SHIT HAPPENING! GET HYPED! SITHBOWL OMFG!!!!1!!!!!!
>>62972333
I literally have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.
>>62972295
>The Techno Union is at your disposal, Count
So the Techno Union were mechanics just there to fix Dooku's trash disposal? Why were they at a top secret meeting?
>the jedi are generals, commandos, and some extralegal martial ruling class all mixed together
>>62971093
papa?
It just boils down to what you consider is "evil". Light side shills will say anyone using the Dark side is instantly evil, but it's just not the case.
The Jedi are a bunch of blue-ball glow stick monks who sexually molest the air to move objects around. They form no attachments, they just exist as shells.
The Sith are true humans, prone to corruption but able to love and feel. They act like humans, they do not suppress themselves. They exist fully
>>62972488
shut the fuck up you dumb cunt
