MaRo calls BfZ his worst set in a decade.
It's not like him to ever admit to doing something not-perfect, this is strange. Maybe he's developing self-awareness.
>>48283190
Are you a dummy.
>>48283190
Bull-fucking-shit. He takes more blame than he's due all the time. It's his job to be the lightning rod for all of WotC's mistakes.
>>48283190
He does admit faults pretty readily, imo. It's just that a lot of people that complain go for hyperbole and say something is 'the worst thing ever' and his response is 'no, it succeeded well by these three metrics'.
Good. Maybe he'll finally admit Khans of Tarkir was fucking shit, too.
> lol 3 color decks worked for Alara
> let's do it again with lamer factions and even worse mechanics
Gateless a mistake
Dragons a mistake
BFZ a mistake.
This is getting depressing now.
Does he need a hug?
>>48283297
that set was great. whats your idea of a good set?
Mark actaully admits the shortcommings of sets pretty often, he generally hypes new release, as per his job, no one should expect him to call the thing that is paying his paycheck total shit, but after the initial release hes pretty open to admitting the shortcommings and issues that are in the product.
>>48283190
Good bait sir.
MaRo calls everything a mistake.
>>48283304
He needs to quit and take Beyer, Stoddard, Forsythe and Jarret with him.
>>48283089
But Bfz was just more dragons of tarkir
>>48283388
And who is going to do his job better?
>>48283396
Wat?
Just because you didn't like both doesn't mean they were the same thing.
>>48283304
He seems pretty positive despite it all. His Drive to Work Podcast is pretty good for understanding his place in the company and his ideas about design.
>>48283297
People had been clamoring for a wedge set for years. The only problems with KTK were that nobody cares about morph, and Rhino was too pushed. That's it.
>>48283420
I had a good time at Bfz prerelease and won packs. I played both and they were basically the same.
>>48283434
He gets a fair number of successes between those failures.
Tg is just full of haters
>>48283297
Khans is literally the best set I've ever played
>>48283447
How?
Repeating a statement does not count as evidence for that statement
>>48283334
Why, so you can shit on it too?
Alara was almost okay because it at least provided some benefit to playing 3 colors. Tarkir was just a shitton of shitty cards to force people to buy dual lands.
>>48283434
>People had been clamoring for a wedge set for years.
Yeah, like 3% of the player base. By those criteria we ought to make a set where you get to grope the other players' man-tits when you cast a sorcery because 3% of the population are homosexuals.
What was wrong with Alara?
>>48283482
So you just started playing Magic? Good to know.
>>48283491
Both sets were full of jank cards and big bombs without any way to interact properly with said big bombs. Many archetypes of magic were flat out missing or crippled and the actual set mechanics for both blocks were unplayably bad in their own limited format.
>>48283514
Where are you pulling your bullshit numbers from? Before KTK was announced, you could ask anyone at FNM if they wanted a wedge set, and at the very least they'd want it for more tri-commanders.
>>48283494
I 3-0'd multiple FNMs without using fetches during KTK. I didn't pay more than $2 for a single card in my Mardu deck, and the only reason I had Monastery Mentors in Jeskai was through trades. What's that meme about TG and Magic?
>>48283524
Mythics
First set of the NWO
>>48283190
Yeah but now go back to all his posts where he shills for how awesome BFZ will be.
Do that and tell me which one he believes.
>>48283089
I don't know how he didn't see this coming
There was almost nothing interesting about the set
>>48283632
Clearly the opinion that came later, after the set's reception and standard/draft play. Do you not understand mistakes or regret as a concept? Much less, how time works?
>>48283674
No. You idiot. My point is he's just telling the consumers what they want to hear.
BFZ IS AWESOME IT WILL SUCK YOUR DICK BUY ALL THE PACKS
>it comes out, people hate it
ITS FINE GUYS I HATE IT TOO, LOL. IM SO RELATEABLE AND I UNDERSTAND YOU, BUY MORE PACKS, I'LL BE BETTER NEXT TIME.
I'm like weirdly hyped for Kaladesh and hoping that R&D still hasn't learned from their mistakes of past artifact-based blocks
>>48283434
>nobody cares about morphI do...
>>48283569
So Standard exists to pander to fucking Commander players now?
>>48283600
< $2 a card can still add up to $119.40 for your deck, anon. Assuming it was tournament legal.
I wasn't talking about fetchlands, either.
> got expensive cards through trades
> won at a shitty set
I am happy for you, as much as I can be happy for some random stranger on teh internet, but that doesn't disprove Khan's shittiness. Someone is always going to win FNM. That doesn't meant the set was well-made or fun to play.
>>48283089
At least he admits it
>>48283714
I bet New Phyrexia invades and Jacetice League save the world.
>>48283803
MaRo has said that every set will feature the Jacetice League from now on
I smell Hasbro pushing a cast for the MTG movie
Yeah, Mark's Mark. We knew this.
>>48283711
Have you ever interacted with a human being in your life? Because what you describe is clearly not what is happening here.
>>48283297
>fetches
>Sarkhan rehabilitated
>we wuz kahnz n shit
It wasn't great, but it certainly wasn't bad.
>>48283845
That's not even what he fucking said. Look, I know you guys need a scapegoat but come on. He does enough actually wrong that you don't need to just make stuff up out of your ass.
>>48283735
>and at the very least they'd want it for more tri-commanders.
>So Standard exists to pander to fucking Commander players now?
Learn to read. Lots of people wanted a wedge set for more than just commander, obviously. I'm not going to make up numbers like "3%", but you'd have been hard pressed to find somebody pre-KTK who wouldn't be mildly interested in a wedge set.
>>48283711
>No. You idiot. My point is he's just telling the consumers what they want to hear.
Yes. That's his job. He's not going to keep his job if he says a set is garbage before it comes out.
>ITS FINE GUYS I HATE IT TOO, LOL. IM SO RELATEABLE AND I UNDERSTAND YOU, BUY MORE PACKS, I'LL BE BETTER NEXT TIME.
Jesus Christ, do you actually think this is how he thinks? He is not the entire marketing division of WotC. I don't even know how to defend him when you're this hard-set to hate him. Try actually reading his tweets and listen to his podcast if you want a real take on maro, and not some kind of strawman that you've scrabbled together from teegee
>>48283936
>pre-KTK who wouldn't be mildly interested in a wedge set.
There will always be people who lap up WotC's shit. Especially standard players who are willing to drop 1000 bucks on a goddamn deck.
Now, if you are the guy who ran something without special lands and won, then perhaps I judged too early. My only experience with KTK was two drafts that I came close to winning in, then got fucked by horrible draws. I was using the same kind of mana mix I used in my Alara decks, too. And in both sets I was effective in about 50% of games.
Should I have built a mono deck? Maybe, but from what I've seen it's a been a long time since monocolor has been truly viable in Standard.
>>48283735
What kind of math is that? Basic lands are a thing. IIRC, this is what I paid for Mardu cards at the time.
Butcher of the Horde- $1
Zurgo Helmsmasher- 2
Bloodsoaked Champion- 2
Crackling Doom- 2
Utter End- 2
The rest of the cards were common and
uncommons. That's $36 for those rares. No fetches, no Thought-seize, no Anger of the Gods. The Mentors didnt come until later.
>>48283722
Me too. It is one of my favorite mechanics. When I heard it was coming back I had high hopes.
>>48283984
>he judges people on not being filthy netdeckers
>>48283984
Khans was a difficult draft environment. You probably just didn't know how to draft it.
>>48283297
>Dredge
>Prowess
>worse mechanics
I will agree with you that the flavor did suck, especially in Dragons.
>>48284129
>Khans was a difficult draft environment.. You probably just didn't know how to draft it.
I certainly did not. But drafts are the only place I can play and have a fair shot instead of getting buttfucked by players who netdeck and drop 1k on a deck every time the standard rotation goes through.
>>48284015
60 x 1.99 is 119.40... I think.
You said you paid less than 2 bucks per card. Minimum deck size is 60 cards. I was going to assume basic lands but honestly the math was quicker that way.
36 bucks for a deck isn't bad. I hope you won your money back.
Eldrazi are awful and boring. Who cares about a bunch of giant mushroom tentacles things that have no character or motivation.
>>48283089
>Destroying the last re-visited world work out so well. Lets do it again!
>Oh you didn't want that one trashed?
>Ok. Lets destroy another.
>Huh. People are liking this... What could we do better? I wonder if we could have some sort of vote... to see if this is what people actually want.
>>48284220
Why do they go through all the effort of world building when they destroy their own settings in the gayest way possible?
>>48284209
I like running them with the colorless matters cards from previous blocks. The ones in the actual set were kind of eh.
I'm not much of a flavor guy. Processors were cool too.
>>48284202
>getting buttfucked by players who netdeck and drop 1k on a deck every time the standard rotation goes through.
Stop being shit at Magic, though.
>>48283304
What's a Gateless?
>>48283089
But what's worse, BFZ or BNG?
>>48283409
A chimpanzee.
>>48283409
Nagle may not be objectively better in every aspect but at least he'll try to make the game more exiting, not less.
>>48284220
>MaRo said we're unlikely to revisit New Phyrexia
>tfw new card for Koth never
>>48284349
In terms of what metric? BNG had a lot of faults, but I don't think it was as universally disappointing. It was a small set with some filler casual mechanics.
>>48284401
Yeah Mark Rosewater is a solid game designer, but his desire for consistency takes away the soul of the game. He's very much willing to put all of his weight behind the corporate aspect of the game, pushing for accessibility and simplicity above all else, which is great if you're some entry level retard, but players are only entry level retards for a while, and then they become players like everyone else.
The game needs complexity, not a guy who's going to wring his hands over printing good removal because it'll make killing creatures in limited too easy.
>>48284445
I forgot BNG was a small set, but still I think it was worse. It had Brimaz and three scry lands. And that's it, nothing else was played anywhere.
On terms of big sets I think DGM was a bigger fuck up than BFZ.
>>48284695
Reminder that the second most expensive card in Dragon's Maze is a token for the first most expensive.
>>48284719
Wait last I checked at least the second most expensive was Ral Zarek, did the token shot up a bit?
>>48284209
They can work as a way to have a planar disaster, and it is sometimes interesting to see how a populace rallies and reacts to their existence.
So of course they got rid of all of them within 2 blocks instead of trying to leave some in reserve.
>>48284743
At one point the token for Voice was really expensive, it has since dropped to around 5 bucks.
>>48284743
Top 10 most expensive cards in Dragon's Maze
1. Voice. $28.
2. Ral Zarek $8
3. Voice's token $5
4. Master of Cruelties $4
5. Mimic $4
6. Savageborn Hydra $3
7. Chant $3
8. Blood Baron $2
9. Legion's Initiative $1.50
10. Mirko $1
>>48284285
The entire sub-plot of Return to Ravinica that they dropped in favor of lolMaze-Runner
>>48284818
>MIRKO VOSK of all things is on the top ten
Fuck DGM was a really shitty set wasn't it.
>>48284832
Oh, that, yeah. Fuck them for wasting time on the best plane.
>>48284834
11. Bird token. $.90
12. Render Silent $.90
13. Wear Tear $.90
14. Maze's End $.90
15. Tajic $.70
Yes. Yes it was
This feels very disappointing and weird considering the original Zendikar was his baby before Innistrad.
>>48283089
Just BFZ or the entire BFZ block though? That question was worded poorly.
>>48284834
It also says a lot that the tenth most expensive thing is only one dollar
>>48284434
>Unlikely to return to new Phyrexia
The fuck? For what possible fucking reason? Doesn't mean it's impossible as we've seen a number of things he considered unlikely happening lately but what the fuck could make the plane featuring Magic's most iconic villains unlikely?
>>48284889
I'm sure he hates SOI block just a little bit less for what it did to Innistrad.
It's a morbid feeling knowing that bullshit he burdened us with and has since ruined the game, like NWO and his revision of the color pie, now exectives are ruining his work and everything he liked about it for the sake of unproven marketing strategies and a movie that may never happen.
>>48284834
In fact, I'll do Saviors of Kamigawa and BFZ for comparison
1. Oboro, Palace in the Clouds $17
2. Mikokoro, Center of the Sea $12
3. Miren, the Moaning Well $11
4. Sakashima the Impostor $11
5. Erayo, Soratami Ascendant $8
6. Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker $5
7. Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant $5
8. Choice of Damnations $4
9. Kami of the Crescent Moon $4
10. Maga, Traitor to Mortals $4
BFZ
1. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar 20
2. Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger 12
3. Ob Nixilis Reignited 6
4. Drana, Liberator of Malakir 6
5. Part the Waterveil 4
6. Shambling Vent 3
7. Cinder Glade 3
8. Prairie Stream 3
9. Kiora, Master of the Depths 3
10. Smoldering Marsh 3
Top 10 value in DGM was $60
Saviors is $81
BFZ is $63
>>48283632
He believes in keeping his job.
>>48284936
Is any modern set without fetchlands/shocklands worth more than $100 in the top 10?
>>48284925
I believed they planned to emrakul it up ever since the first Innistrad came out and reception seems to be positive on non 4chan sites.
>>48284902
Got the impression he meant just BFZ and not the whole block since I feel he probably would have said block if he meant it and the question was for set. Just assuming though
>>48284968
I heard that sometime around Original INN block someone proposed a story about Emrakul causing madness on Innistrad, yeah. I think Eldrazi make the most sense on Innistrad. It just annoys me sense I think as hes said in his own words, Eldrazi are iconically three, and having Innistrad have the cosmic horror chthulu trope feels hollow now that we don't have a pantheon of elder gods and just the one.
>>48284469
It has plenty of complexity and is adding more with each new set. His job is to help keep magic alive and successful.
Players will quit magic, so they need to attract new blood and thus must limit the complexity a new player will face and perceive.
>>48284434
Scars was a great set. Innistrad/Scars standard was one of the most enjoyable ones I've played. But it's mired in really shitty story decisions. What was the point of setting up Phyrexia like that if we weren't ever going to go back there?
>Set up Mirrans to make a comeback, Melira can cure/grant immunity to oil, they're hiding in Urabrask's furnaces
>One shitty mothership story ruins all of that setting up
>"Melira ASSPLODED into oil, no ummunity lel"
>"Red phyrexians were ASSPLODED by Elesh Norn, no mirrans left lel"
>"Koth ASSPLODED himself to ASSPLODE the Phyrexians, no Koth lel"
>>48284965
If you mean modern as in 8th ed+, there's at least Mirrodin, Innistrad (two cards), Darksteel (two cards), New Phyrexia, Scars of Mirrodin, Lorwynn, and more. The point is that there's a lot.
>>48285012
NWO ended up causing the player revolving door to go from 4 years on average to 2 years on average.
They could live with that during the nerd boom but that well is draining quick.
>>48285083
Liliana alone is more than $100
>>48285102
Oh wew.
>>48284965
8th Edition is $151
9th is $134
10th is $167
Mirrodin is $173
Darksteel is $204
Fifth Dawn is $187
Time Spiral is a fun one. $171
Champions of Kamigawa is $202
Betrayers is $134
Seems like older sets are more expensive. I'll use uh...
Fate Reforged $49
>>48284925
What? The reason he thinks BFZ was a poor design is because it was a return that didn't return to the setting and feel of the original Zendikar set, is the long and short of it. SOI nailed that for Innistrad, though.
>>48285114
>Fate Reforged $49
Literally only Ugin and Banana Man
>BFZ worst
>When EMN exists
This is coming from someone who likes both Eldrazi and Innistrad, both flavor and gameplay wise. Wizards doesn't give a fuck about anything at this point. Everything's gonna get fucked to bits because Maro and whatever "market research" he pulls out of his ass love the Jacetice League so much.
>>48285114
SOI is 97, just under the $100 mark
Scars is $128
New Phyrexia is $202
Mirrodin Beseiged $134
>>48285147
This post has a relatively large number of words versus the amount of information that can actually be gleaned from the opinion expressed within it.
>>48285184
Urza's Saga is $499
Legacy is $134
Destiny $140
BFZ story should have been about the Gatewatch traveling to the various Eldrazi temples of Zendikar to find some secret relics or information about the hedrons network o lock down Ulamog, then have the story beats of OGE stay the same. They were shitty but they must've wanted the Eldrazi outright destroyed for a reason so. This just correxts the problem of BFZ feeling too much like ROE.
>>48285084
evidence?
Or are we in the standard making statements built on feels land.
>>48285084
I'm going to need a citation for that.
>>48285224
Lol I have to know, what's BNG?
>>48285114
>>48285134
>Fate Reforged $49
Still more than Ice Age?
>>48285311
I wonder how Homelands is.
>>48285311
Huh, that's higher than I expected
>>48285317
34 cents most likely, since you can't really go below 1 cent and the best card from that set is 25 cents.
>>48285367
>the best card from that set is 25 cents
Holy shit, I knew it was bad, but not that bad.
>>48285317
>>48285367
Merchant Scroll is worth a few bucks.
>>48284936
>>48284936
>1. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar 20
>pulled one at BFZ Prerelease
>pulled one from my BFZ fat pack
>pulled one at OGW Prerelease
No wonder I didn't think this set was that terrible. Christ, I'm pretty sure they knew it was just so bad that it wouldn't sell it without expeditions.
>>48285194
I want to say it's a parody, but I've seen too many people on here with similar attitudes.
>>48285378
It was the perfect example of when you have people who don't know much about design and development getting pissy about having to do the set because it was worse in terms of formatting and design than Legends was when it first got to them.
>>48285317
About $14.50
>>48284925
>his revision of the color pie
What is supposedly wrong with it? Red is getting some much needed expansion.
>>48285380
Three to be exact
Apparently you can get a complete set of homelands for 40 bucks
>>48285475
Red winter orb soon
>>48285308
Theros 65
Born of the Gods 38
Nyx 72
>>48285311
Ice Age is 53
>>48285317
Homelands is $15
>>48285081
Source?
>>48285612
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/uncharted-realms/lost-confession-2013-09-11
>>48283297
Triple KTK was the most fun draft format outside of a masters set or cube that I have played.
>>48283089
>he finally admits how terrible BfZ was
>>48285686
Koth has actually since been confirmed to be alive.
>>48285686
>>48285788
And Melira is ambiguous, which means she's alive. My guess is that she sparked, which is why she was immune.
>>48283891
The actual quote was something like "every block will feature a member of the gatewatch."
>>48285686
>>48285788
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/checking-planeswalkers-2014-06-16
For source.
>>48283711
Christ dude chill, regular people feel regret and can be genuine. I'd ask if you were jaded but you just come across as disturbingly autistic.
>>48285820
>My guess is that she sparked, which is why she was immune.
Was Tezzeret susceptible to compleation?
>>48283190
He does it all the time. He just won't while the set is being sold. It's common sense to not talk about the design flaws of the product your selling.
>>48285840
Yes, and "the Gatewatch will be the focus for every story in the foreseeable future."
>>48286020
All walkers are immune to it. The spark is the antithesis of Phyrexia somehow and wards off its corruption.
>>48283711
You're a burger.
>>48285081
koth beat that dreadnaught anon, he still fights alongside karn to this day. The Might of New Phyrexia will be the set they reprint arcbound ravagers, karn and such. Itll be the expert set that replaces conspiracy.
>>48286147
Walkers arent immune, it just kills them and snuffs out their soul making the reanimated being a regular phyrexian.
>>48286417
No, it grants them literal immunity.
Karn was 99% Compleated when Venser and friends found him. Then Venser put his spark in Karn and Karn hocked up all the corruption like a bad loogie.
>>48283297
The only thing wrong with Khans was rhino, the set is perfect otherwise and even Dragons was good in the block.
>>48286640
>the set is perfect otherwise
Ehh... I mean, the set is good, probably the best one released since original Innistrad, but it's far from perfect.
>>48286483
>Karn was 99% Compleated
>Karn, the planeswalker
Clearly planeswalkers aren't immune to compleation then, are they?
>>48286699
He sacrificed his spark in the Mending to fix the time spiral before being cast through the multiverse to Mirrodin.
>>48286699
He wasn't a planeswalker at the time, he had lost his spark.
>>48286713
But Karn chose to planeswalk away in Planar Chaos after closing the rift because he felt himself getting corrupted. How could he planeswalk away if he wasn't still a planeswalker?
>>48286812It's a plothole that's never been addressed.
>>48284469
>not a guy who's going to wring his hands over printing good removal
That's devlopment you're thinking of. Maro is head of design. He does not decide the power level of cards.
>>48283494
>set literally has two cards that art restricted in vintage and banned in modern and legacy.
>shitty cards
nice b8
>>48286812
>>48286870
So his heart is where the oil came from at first, so it might have eaten away at him from the inside at first, and when his spark was sacrificed it let the corruption fully take hold or something.
>>48286903
I keep hearing about all the various aspects of Magic's production. What are all those branches (development, R&D, design, etc)?
>>48283089
Eldrazi where his answer to dredge.
But nazi strong.
>>48286713
If losing his spark is what allowed Karn to be corrupted, why wasn't he corrupted back before he got his spark?
>>48286953
Who knows. Took a while, I guess.
>>48286020
METAL ARM
It might not be susceptible to corruption, but that don't stop it from becoming an infetion dispenser
Basically they didn't want to turn into typhoid mary
>>48283388
THIS
H
I
S
>>48285686
Wasn't that the one where suffering-chan was being the most negative of nellies?
>>48286812
>>48286870
He essentially became the Legacy Weapon, his ability to planeswalk without a spark came the essence of the Weatherlight trapped within him. When the Mending occurred, it took away that ability and when Venser sacrificed his spark, it reignited Karn's, making him a normal post-Mending planeswalker and allowing him to planeswalk again.
I can appreciate the changes of the Mending, making it so that not anyone can hop between planes with portals, airships, special magic and what have you. Planeswalking is solely for planeswalkers (and eldrazi apparently) and there's a lot of story shit that can be done with that sort of restriction.
>>48288158
To bad post mending the stories became shit compared to the old ones. Nerfing the planeswalkers made it lame. It was like dulling of current sets. It just makes it more uninteresting the more you know. I miss the thousand year old wizards that strode planes and made their own. Who were fallible but thousands of years old with too much power and much less judgement.
>>48288158
Eldrazi can't planeswalk, actually.
>>48286915
Design which Maro leads, don't care about P/T or CMC.
They might write a note, "we want this to be high cost big creature." to development.
Development are the culprits of color breaking cards, "broken" cards (siege rhino) and flavor fails. Development should only care about the cmc and P/T of cards, but they just HAD to make Coax from the Blind Eternities.
Cause development are stupid.
>>48289882
>>48286915
And creative (which maro are with on the start of each set, for world building) create names, flavor text, and world building, I think they're art department too.
>>48288809
It's effectively planeswalking.
Yes, I know, an Eldrazi titan is like the actual Eldrazi's hand, Eldrazi always dwell in the blind eternities, drones and scions are like organs, blah blah blah. I know I am 'technically' wrong but if they can be seen on one plane and then they can be seen on another, I'll call that planeswalking and fuck the technical definition.
>>48283984
>it's a been a long time since monocolor has been truly viable in Standard.
RtR/Theros was 3 years ago.
>>48290201
Three years is a pretty decent amount of time. It's almost an entire presidential term. It's over a quarter of a decade. Etc.
>>48289882
>Design which Maro leads, don't care about P/T or CMC.
>They might write a note, "we want this to be high cost big creature." to development.
This is so so wrong. Design does put power and toughness and mana costs on their cards, and they're usually overpowered as well because its easier to determine which cards and mechanics are fun to play with when they're all good.
Development is the department that determines which cards work and which don't. Which cards that should be pushed for the Standard environment, and which cards should be scaled back, and which should be removed completely.
>>48283482
Not him, but I've been playing since Alara, and Khans is definitely up there for me.
>>48291739
Development usually changes CMC and P/T fairly significantly though. Siege Rhino in particular was a last minute change to make an underpowered card better. That's actually where a significant number of broken cards come from.
>>48289882
>>48289910
>>48291739
>>48292406
So design creates the initial cards, those cards get tested and cycle through development for a while to get balanced, and creative is just art/flavor?
>>48292937
Creative works in tandem with Design, but usually doesn't have a heavy hand in it unless it applies to planeswalker cards.
Like, Creative left a comment on the Blazing Torch reprint in OG Innistrad, because Innistrad vampires aren't vulnerable to fire.
>>48293485
Neat
>>48283297
Fook off, Khans was the best set in a long time. Not perfect but being between Theros and Bfz it shines like a pearl in a pile of trash.
>inb4 you only like it for fetches
>>48293626
I am guessing you played a fuckton of the limited environment. That's honestly the only reason I see people praising Khans over the other sets in the block.
Fate was my favorite of all three. I loved the modal enchantments and Manifest. And even the Ugin's Fate gimmick seemed so cool.
>>48293485
>because Innistrad vampires aren't vulnerable to fire.
Weren't supposed to be. They didn't realize that Torch was a reprint and thought that the vampire-specific text could be removed no problem.
>>48292937
Essentially. The actual process is more complicated though, with a short period where design and development both work on the same set, for exampe, so that the design team can communicate to development what they're going for. And the designs they leave over aren't just tweaked, sometimes entire subthemes are removed or added by development for the sake of limited gameplay, and so on.
>>48283089
Let's not get carried away. This guy is so full of himself that he probably considers every set he designed a perfect 10, except for BfZ,which is only a 9.7.
>>48293930
Jesus christ. 4chan was not this edgy even two years ago. What the hell happened? 4chan only had an edgyness expansion rate of 4% or so for the last eight years.
Doesn't it get exhausting trying to form villainous caricatures in your mind for every single person you learn exists?
>>48292406
>Siege Rhino in particular was a last minute change
It wasn't. For a long time Liliana of the Dark Veil was set to be reprinted in the same Standard environment and Siege Rhino was upped powerwise to help combat her. And then they never nerfed the Rhino when she was removed due to how much better she made the Mono Black deck.
Skullclamp was a last minute change to make an otherwise boring card that gave +1/+1 a little more exciting by making the equipped creature easier to kill.
Jitte was a last minute change, where they for some reason decided that gaining 2 life or giving the equipped creature +2/+2 wasn't good enough and added another one that allowed it to wipe the opposing side of the board.
Siege Rhino wasn't.
>>48293930
Maro critiques his own sets all the time.
>>48293988
It's summer.
>>48294000
>Liliana of the Dark Veil
????
>>48293988
Cool your jets, Mr Level-Head
Maro is a corporate puppet who is there to broadcast the official company line in a way that seems hip and fresh, always pretending that decisions made with maximum benefit in mind are in fact, for the good of the game. So, yeah, Maro is a villain.
>>48294072
Liliana of the Veil
>>48294095
You need to be 18 to visit this site.
>>48294018
>Maro critiques his own sets all the time.
Always in a very condescending way. Like the way he insists Theros was awesome and players just insisted in playing it wrong.
>>48294109
You need to read a book once in a while. Preferably, one that does not come from the Science-Fiction/Fantasy section.
>>48294095
>cool your jets, Mr level-Head
Do you not know what those phrases mean, or is the contradiction intentional? Just wondering.
>>48294137
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mm/state-design-2014
>We Messed Up on Born of the Gods
>We Mishandled Enchantment Matters
>We Should Have Kept Monstrosity for the Whole Block
Yeah, sure sounds like nothing but milk and honey.
>>48294162
You need to grow up.
>>48294000
That's partially correct, in that it was originally intended to deal with Lily. But there's more to it.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/pillar-never-was-2015-04-03
It was needed when Lilly left to being 4 mana plus uncounterable, but then changed to help deal with First Response. That last change is what made it retarded.
I suppose there's no proof it's last minute, but I can't imagine them letting it happen if it weren't.
>>48294172
>We Messed Up on Born of the Gods
"if the second set was lacking, it's because I was saving stuff for the third set". I gave you a third awesome set. Why are you complaining?
>We Mishandled Enchantment Matters
"It's not that the block didn't deliver this, because it did. It just delivered it too late"
We gave you an awesome third set. Why are you complaining?
"That means we went two-and-a-half for three. Pretty good."
Oh, yeah, that is some self flagellation right there. Even when he admits the whole enchantment-block theme did not work, he gives himself half a thumbs up. I get it, this is your webpage, and you cannot say that you simply screwed up. But that is a long shot from saying that Maro has no problem being self-critical.
>>48294382
>We gave you an awesome third set. Why are you complaining?
That's not at all what he's saying at all.
>>48294000
He got trample to help not get chumped by Painland generated First Response decks. First Response having been tuned much more for Standard at that time.
>>48294382
The lense through which you see the world makes me question why you would be willing to get up in the morning.
>>48283089
Yoou guys can make fun of MaRo all you want, but I'm glad to see him look at his works honestly. It's a welcome break from "It didn't live up to expectations" or "It wasn't as well received as we hoped"
>>48294503
Trust me, dude. A book. Once in a while.
>>48294000
Some other noteworthy changes to notable Magic cards.
Tarmogoyf: Originally was just a */* creature but got the */*+1 added on near the end because they didn't want a new player to play it out on an empty board and then have it die due to state-based effects.
Jitte: The -1/-1 ability was originally a, "remove a counter: add B to your mana pool." This was meant to be a callback to Umezawa being a mono B creature and still being the "hero" of the set.
JTMS: Originally didn't have 4 abilities. The -1 got added on near the end because they were operating under the assumption of "PWers have to be able to protect themselves." Also, the ultimate used to cost more, like -13 or -14.
Snapcaster: R&D thought the card would work better as 1R than the 1U it currently is. But Tiago wanted it to be 1U, and it was his second card design (the first was a Legendary land that could tap for U or you can cast from hand for 2UU as an uncounterable Counterspell) and it was getting late in development for Innistrad, so they changed it to 1U.
>>48294635
Some of your facts are wrong. Snappy was always U. The whole "well, it could've been red" was all hindsight. Granting that kind of effect is in both colors.
>>48294714
the amount of massive ass hurt red players have over snapcaster is truly staggering. i will never understand why bad players hate blue as much as they do.
>>48294962
Getting butthurt is part of red's color pie
>>48294962
Snapcaster in red could've changed Legacy in a much more interesting way than Snappy in blue.
But he probably wouldn't have flash, so he'd still be useless.
>>48294635
>>48294714
Tiago did keep submitting unprintably powerful cards, and wanted Snapcaster to be blue (as were all the rest of his card ideas that weren't artifacts or lands that would be stupidly broken in blue decks).
There was an element of 'I think we might actually be able to print one of Tiago's cards' exasperation going on there.
Tiago really was that 'blue should have all the best stuff' designer people think works in wizards R&D.
>>48295056
In what way? Blue is the most prolific color so the most decks have him available now.
>>48295068
IIRC most of the "designed by champion" cards were blue, at least partially, so he's not the only one thinking in that direction.
>>48295127
Snappy is strong enough that theoretically he could've created new decks with red rather than adding more to the prominence of blue in the format.
>>48295174
http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Magic_Invitational
1 green
2 red (1 multicolor)
5 blue (2 multicolor)
2 white (1 multicolor)
3 black (2 multicolor)
1 colorless
Interesting
>>48295127
... in non-standard formats. Currently in standard there's like maybe two or three decks that use blue in any capacity? The top deck in standard only splashes blue for one card.
>>48295243
I meant in legacy.
>>48294624
>I am intellectualy superior because I once read a book without pic, BOW TO ME VILE PLEBIANS (I know what that means! )
>>48295174
his were the only ones that were out of control broken.
While >>48295227 is right that the bias toward blue design is there (they are typically older players from when blue had it's glory days). And they love control decks, the non-blue cards are pretty controlly too.
But Tiago was the one who got repeatedly rejected before finally giving Snapcaster mage. Voidmage Prodigy and Shadowmage infiltrator aren't exactly in the same league here.
There is a difference between 'liking blue' and 'wanting to give blue tons of broken toys'
>>48295341
plebeians. See, a book.
I wish emrakul was a planeswalker. Would make the card much cooler
13 mana
8 hp
+2 give a creature +3/2 make it colorless eldrazi
-4 control target permanent
-8 control players turn
Or something like that. I'm not sure about the numbers and effect but it would also explain why Emmy is on innistrad
>>48295658
>it would explain why emmy is on innistrad
there is already an explanation you idiot. it's also not a planeswalker, at all, so i don't know why they'd give it a card type dedicated to planeswalkers.
>>48295697
>falling for bait
You shame this board
>>48284469
Why is Duel Masters allowed to have all kinds of crazy garbage when it's supposedly for a younger demographic than MtG?
>>48285475
What is the point of expanding a color if they won't even print cards with mechanics it already has access to?
>>48296678
such as?
What did red lose?
>>48292300
Khans was the best limited Original INN
>>48283845
Its a good thing the magic movie didnt come out 20 years ago, or we would be complaining about Gerard Trek
>>48296764
The writing was better (not great, but better) and the characters more interesting
And this isn't nostalgia speaking - I didn't even start playing until after Apocalypse.
>>48296800
Personally, I'm really not seeing it. It tried to be all gritty and ended up being ludicrous.
>>48285081
I don't see anything about Melira exploding or Red Phyrexians getting erradicated. It says that Urabrask's domain was taken over by Sheoldred but nothing about him (or the other red phyrexians) getting wiped out.
>>48297224
The pacing and story beats were more appropriate for a continuous story. Post Mending we get Tintin style stories that feature a recurring cast but individual stories. Pre Mending (weatherlight saga particularly) was more like Star Wars. There was a single enemy faction but the heroes went through a lot of different mini-adventures, but always in order to get closer toward the ultimate goal of defeating the big-bad.
Gatewatch is supposed to be more like the old Weatherlight stuff but is not setting up long enough stories. Resolutions occur to quickly and there is very little that occurs between the threat emerging and the ultimate defeat of the threat (how much of the Eldrazi did we actually see between RotE and OGW?). This lends itself to a more Inspector Gadget type of thing where you do have a couple of 'big bads' but they always get foiled at the end of the episode, leaving a not particularly compelling sequel hook to get you to watch next week's episode.
>>48297532
>This lends itself to a more Inspector Gadget type of thing where you do have a couple of 'big bads' but they always get foiled at the end of the episode
> I'rakul'll get you next time, gatewatch!Is Tamiyo Sophie?
>>48283297
>Maybe he'll finally admit Khans of Tarkir was fucking shit, too.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/state-design-2015-2015-08-24
>>48298403
Most of his criticisms, not just for this set, but in general seem to center on how the mechanics did not work but the flavor did. In general, the success ratio of new mechanics is pretty low when they are compared with a wide range of preNWO ones.
To me, this suggests a very mediocre design team. In any company, if the main features of a new product were reviewed by the design team itself on these terms "Dragons Needed More Variety", "We Misunderstood How Dragons Are Perceived", "Megamorph was a Mega-Disappointment", "It Compared Poorly", "It Wasn't Novel Enough", "The Name Sucked", they would get fired.
>>48298582
>New product
It's not, though. You're looking at a retrospective analysis, not a preliminary one.
Companies issue recalls all the time. Fuckups occur.
>>48298582
>if a product were reviewed by the design team at the end of its lifespan, and they indicated that they had noted and learned from several mistakes in it, they would be fired
>regardless of how well that product actually performed in the market
>>48298621
>Companies issue recalls
And when those happen, people get fired. When the Mercedes A Class failed the moose test, the design team in charge of the suspension were let go. Of course, there is no possible recall for an Mtg set, but it seems to me that a team that cannot systematically create well-received mechanics needs a shaking up.
>>48299169
there's a huge difference between a car having a life threatening fatal flaw and designing a less than stellar set
>>48298582
>Compared to pre no one's
Not really. Plenty of those were bad or forgettable too
>>48300059
Phasing. Wisdom. Scoop. Threshold. Amplify. Splice. Rystic mana.
>>48294624
I know more things than you.
>>48294635
>but got the */*+1 added on near the end because they didn't want a new player to play it out on an empty board and then have it die
No. The card was removed from the file for a long and then added in by memory. Original goyf is */*+1 so it was assumed this was too. At the same time it was also changed from 2G to 1G because it was "only a vanilla creature".
>>48295068
Tiago intentionally submitted unprintable cards because he didn't want to design one. Maro sat down with him and asked what he wanted his card to be and Tiago supposedly answered some like
>cheap
>blue
>provide card advantage
>tournament playable
And the card was designed from out of that.
>>48301931
That sounds like such a scumbag thing to do. If he didn't want to design a card, he should've just declined to do one.
What went wrong with BfZ the set?
>>48302508
It really is.
>>48302604
He'll tell us exactly what went wrong in his next State of Design article at the end of August.
I'm guessing he'll mention things like not meeting the public's expectations on Eldrazi and Allies, and making it seemingly arbitrary which creatures were Allies and which weren't with no indication other than the type line.
>>48302508
All players at the invitational had to submit a design. Tiago just wanted to play the game. There's nothing scummy about it.
>>48300129
>Threshold
>bad
Surely you're memeing
>>48299169
>the moose test
What?
>>48303305
It still doesn't change the fact that intentionally sending unprintable cards because he didn't want to design one is an passive aggressive way to handle the situation. Even though he won the Invitational, he could've been up front about it and instead.
>>48304132
It's not passive aggressive at all. You're literally the only one getting upset over this.
>>48304030
>>48285840
>>48286131
The quote was that at least one member of the gatewatch will play an active role, which is far from being the focus or main feature
He explains it more in later posts; market research and sales figures show that people didn't like the set. If people dislike the set he admits failure.
>>48304339
There are other quotes than that single one.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/146504955683/im-personally-not-a-fan-of-the-gatewatch-or-having
>For now, we’re telling an interconnected story with a central cast of characters.
What's bad isn't that they're having an organization of planeswalkers involved in every story from now on. What's bad is that they somehow managed to exclude every interesting planeswalker from that organization.
>>48283089
If MaRo thinks his recent sets have all been mistakes, could he finally realize that wizards marketing department is retarded and start releasing fun cards again?
>>48283494
Actually, KTK was designed that even though it was a wedge set, there was plentiful mana fixing available for the decks, especially outside of the rares.
>MaRo talks about players disappointment with Theros
>MaRo talks about players disappointment with Tarkir
>MaRo talks about players disappointment with BFZ
I can't wait for a year from now when MaRo talks about players disappointment with Kaladesh.
>>48307681
He's said Kaladesh is the best set he's ever done. Last thing he described like that was original Innistrad.
>>48307137
They've included the top five most popular planeswalkers in the Gatewatch and have promised that it will grow and change as time goes on.
Your issue is not the same that the rest of us have.
>>48307170
He doesn't believe Theros was a mistake. He doesn't consider Tarkir a mistake. He doesn't consider Return to Ravnica a mistake.
Also note how he doesn't say that BfZ is a bad design. He's saying that it's his personal worst in the last ten years; no his worst ever; not even necessarily bad.
>>48308083
BFZ is made worse than it is not cause of design, but cause of low power level.
And that comes from development.
All recent "bad" sets have low powerlevel with shitty overcosted shit.
>>48283089
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>48308009
And we all remember how well Innistrad block ended.
>>48283514
Sounds like a fun set
>>48308083
Exactly, as a creative sometimes you make work you think isn't your best but isn't necessarily bad. Rivers hated the fuck out of Pinkerton, but it wasn't an explicitly bad album.
>>48283711
>Work for big corporation in public-facing position
>Talk shit about upcoming product
>Say anything at all that isn't positive about upcoming/just released product
>Lose job
I don't fault Maro for being gung-ho about every upcoming product. It's basic PR. Even a lowly peon like me would get canned if I badmouthed one of my company's upcoming products in public. Just take everything he says about an unreleased set with a grain of salt.
>>48308609
Maro does make a point of not saying things that are untrue. For example, he won't say that he is proud of the design and thinks that the team outdid themselves unless he actually thinks that it's true. However, as a salesman he does play up the positive sides while ignoring the negatives, because that's how you get people excited about buying your product.
A lot of people, it seems, reads in way more things into what Maro says than he actually does. So when he says that he thinks the team did a good job of implementing [crazy mechanic] in [bad set] they think he's saying that they did an awesome job on [bad set].
>>48303376
it was. The designers think they did bad in making it static at 7, rather than flexing.
And for the most part it just didn't show up until late game. And then was just a thing you had in late game. There was no real interaction in pushing towards it and pushing people off of it.
Compared to delirium or final hour it's very boring design, and outside of mongoose had no real lasting effect.
>>48308694
I think some people make the wrong assumption that Maro's set reviews are the same as the many other reviews out there. He cannot really be an objective reviewer since he is a company man. Also, a lot of his comments center on how well or how poorly such and such mechanic was implemented. And we really have no basis for comparison, in most cases. We can compare Madness in the Odyssey block vs SoI block, but how do we know that Delirium was well implemented? We have no basis for comparison, we know nothing of what decisions were made, what ideas discarded, whether it was intended to be dominant or not, ... We can only comment on how powerful it is in a given format and whether we liked it or not.
These articles should be taken, I think, as a sort of after the fact puff piece on how cool our design team is.
>>48308879
>Compared to delirium or final hour it's very boring design, and outside of mongoose had no real lasting effect.
Which delirium card do you project to make it into modern? legacy? vintage?
>>48308931
I said it was boring. The competition isn't really in how much it effects legacy and vintage, because mongoose isn't in there because threshold is a good mechanic.
It's in vintage because a one drop shroud that can go up in power is really good in vintage. Have that exact same card with delirium and it would see play over mongoose.
Delirium is more interesting, because its a thing decks can be capable of, or not, or able to push for early, or not, how easy it is to get to delirium effects deck/card evaluation in standard. It's a better mechanic.
>>48308879
During its time in standard Psycatog Madness/Threshold decks were some of the most popular decks. Threshold itself was really well received and many people still have fond memories of it. I'll concede that being a static 7 was probably not ideal, but in a format where you had such good enablers there was just so much you could do with it. You had control decks, you had threshold combo decks.
Also what this anon said:
>>48308931
>>48308931
Something can be badly designed if it sees play in eternal formats. Sometimes, it specifically gets to see play in eternal formats because it's badly designed.
>>48308982
OK. That makes sense.
