> All evil can be forgiven and redeemed.
> All evil must be destroyed.
Are they both CG /tg/?
>>47684985
Yes.
>>47684985
No, neither is chaotic good. Daredevil is more true good leaning Lawful good due to his dedication to mercy.
The punisher is at best lawful neutral due to his strict adherence to a simple code.
The actual answer is that morality is much more complicated than alignment can allow and your question is stupid.
>>47685059
>The actual answer is that morality is much more complicated than alignment can allow and your question is stupid.
To be fair, that's because DnD alignment is stupid. OP can't be blamed for that.
>>47684985
>The Punisher
>Good
The guy guns people down in the street simply for having connections to bad people. His murder spree reached almost three dozen before you actually saw his face in the TV show.
He doesn't give a shit about saving people or even really fixing society. He just removes criminal. That's Neutral at best.
But as >>47685059 said you can't really give either of them an Alignment.
>>47685059
Mercy isn't lawful. Mercy is a construct of chaos.
>>47685210
Mercy that stems from compassion is Good.
Mercy that stems from pragmatism (i.e killing someone would cause too much trouble) is of no alignment.
Mercy is only chaotic when it's in direct conflict with law, e.g a death sentence is lifted, an oath to kill someone is broken, etc. However, even then laws and codes often make provision for mercy to be given by an appropriate authority.
>>47684985
>AD&D
Daredevil would be LG or NG, since LG is about helping everyone, even people you don't like, while NG is about helping out the most you can while being judgmental about it.
Punisher would be LE or NE, as while he cares about maintaining order for the people he deems 'innocent' he is a murderous psychopath. The only reason he's not CN or CE is because Chaotic alignments are restricted for those who are all about personal freedom and actively rebel against authority.
>>47685210
>Mercy is a construct of chaos.
Edgy.
>>47684985
all protagonists are chaotic good
>>47685256
I'd say NE fits Frank the best for most portrayals. Maybe LE depending on the writer.
Opposing Evil does not automatically make someone Good. Especially when their methods are just as bad and have just as negative affect on society as the people they fight.
His actions aren't motivated by any kind of altruism or even an interest in making things "right". And his methods reflect that.
>>47685252
>>47685267
Mercy, by definition, is unjust. Mercy is the act of giving someone something they don't deserve, and is a form of theft. You are further damaging the rights of the victims of crime when criminals are treated better than they deserve to be treated.
I'M SO SICK OF CHAOSFAGS GETTING THEIR FINGERS INTO EVERYTHING.
>>47685256
>psychopath
Once you know what this word actually means, it's annoying to see people just throwing it around.
Psychopaths find it very difficult to form real love an relationships with people, and lack empathy. Show Punisher is easy to identify as not being a psychopath clearly by the way he talks about his wife and children, and the nature of his justification about why he does what he's doing. A psychopath wouldn't have that "penny and dime" mantra he has.
>>47685324
Cuteness is justice, so, showing mercy to a cute girl or a cute boy, is justice.
>>47685330
Eh that could go several ways. Just because he once had that ability doesn't mean he's still capable of it. The show makes it pretty clear he's damaged goods now. A lot of what he does after he lost his family in the show matches up with typical violent psychopath behavior.
That said I'm not a mental health professional so I can't really diagnose Frank.
>>47685324
Yeah, I figured you'd make this retarded argument.
Go back and answer the point I made about many law systems having provision for granting mercy.
And if you're just ranting like some edgelord lawfag then let me say "fuck off" in advance.
Saying the punisher is anything Evil is like saying Paladins are Evil for smiting evil all the time.
>>47685416
Just because you fight Evil does not make you Good. Not to mention that the stereotypical smitebot Paladin really would not be considered Lawful Good because they refuse to even try diplomacy, redemption, or rehabilitation, not to mention a complete and total disregard for collateral damage. They just go straight to bloodshed. They'd be Lawful Neutral at best.
I think the thing that trips people up with alignment is the mistaken belief that any character can have one and only one alignment that fits to who they are.
In fact, the default alignment of a character is the alignment the player thinks the character should have, or the DM if it is an NPC. For a non-metagame version if this, the basic alignment of a character is the alignment the character himself believes he has.
Now, this isn't absolute, since of course a character acting blatantly contrary to their alignment will become a different alignment... especially in the Good/Evil spectrum, which is solidly defined (even if many do not like the way it is defined). The law/chaos spectrum isn't nearly as clear, and that is fine. The s
>>47685416
>this argument again
Paladins smite Evil in a setting where Evil is a tangible essence. You can't apply the ethical considerations from a setting where that's a thing to a work where it isn't. If a person in D&D is evil, it basically invalidates all other considerations about their personality and Smiting them has no more moral weight than putting down a rabid dog.
There's also the fact just because you kill Evil doesn't mean you aren't Evil yourself. The Punisher murders people and puts innocents in dangerous situations in process. Solely because he believes the system doesn't do a good enough job of keeping people he doesn't like off the streets.
Doesn't sound very Good to me, famalam.
>>47685481
>That pic
What's he gonna do, light my stove for me?
>>47685462
You guys forget that the Punisher also goes to extreme lengths to protect innocent lives. He cannot be evil in that regard, whether or not that balances out his sadism and other evil tendencies when dealing with torturing evildoers.
A paladin that enjoys smiting evil doesn't make him evil.
>>47685481
Are you implying the types of people the Punisher kills are any different? They're violent murders, psychopaths, pedophiles, rapists, etc.
They are, by all means, people who even society and the average civilian would deem evil and would give the death sentence, but since the judicial system isn't perfect, the Punisher has to deal with them instead.
>>47685496
You also seem to forget that the Punisher's first appearance involved gunning down everyone and everyone who had committed a crime, down to jaywalkers who illegally crossed the street to get away from the trigger-happy maniac.
>>47685496
Not him, but when he's well-written, yes. When he's written by a shitty author, he regularly puts innocents in danger with his stupid actions.
Like his shotgun rampage in the hospital in the show. "I was intentionally missing you! Never mind that I hit everything around you except for my target!"
>>47685509
I'm not saying the people Frank kills are any better than him.
Just that he isn't automatically Good just for killing them.
>>47685496
>You guys forget that the Punisher also goes to extreme lengths to protect innocent lives.
I was under the impression most writers just have him ignore innocents. Like he'll rarely ever go out of his way to save people because he's mainly interested in punishing.
>>47685324
Hurting perpetrators doesn't help victims. The whole basis of Good is helping victims. The basis of Law is preventing people from becoming victims in the first place.
The feature that separates Lawful Good from Lawful Evil is understanding that criminals are victims themselves.
>>47685585
>understanding that criminals are victims themselves.
>>47685534
>Just that he isn't automatically Good just for killing them.
He's not automatically evil either which is the other argument.
>>47685585
You can't have two rape victims in a rape involving 2 people you nigger.
>>47685605
Being a crackwhore isn't the glamorous life of excess you think it is.
>>47685613
It doesn't make him automatically Evil, but the results and effects of his actions definitely slide him more that way.
Even though he explicitly doesn't target innocents, it's not like they fucking know that. All they know is there's a crazy gunman out there killing people in the streets, at their jobs, even in their homes. That terrifies people. And it throws the city into chaos.
Not to mention it spooks the people affiliated with his victims; people who are often vicious bad guys themselves. So they'll escalate, and before you know it the entire city is a battlefield between police, gangsters, and one crazy guy who only answers to himself. Maybe one of the other baker's dozen of super heroes who live in New York will get involved and things will get even crazier.
All because Frank doesn't like how the system works.
>>47685662
FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, THE SYSTEM IS EVIL
>>47685630
You can be a victim of something other than rape so your comeback is bad and you should feel bad
>>47685630
No, you have one victim of violent assault and one victim of cultural indoctrination that places women in the position of being gatekeepers of male sexuality. You can't pit two groups that rely on each other to survive against one another and not expect violence.
>>47685605
It's a harsh truth that a lot of people aren't strong enough to face. The whole concept of guilt and deserving one thing or another was always irrational. When suffering occurs we want someone else to suffer to make up for it, as if that rights something. Because humans are emotional and stupid.
>>47685644
Yeah but that crackwhore's pimp ain't a fucking victim.
>>47685697
Stop being such a bleeding heart. "Society was mean to me!" isn't an excuse for being a shitty person and you eventually reach a point where you deserve to get thrown in jail.
You remind of the Los Angeles mayor. The guy who just recently came out saying it's important to thank and honor convicted felons for "serving their debt to society".
>>47685697
>>47685721
Here's the difference, you faggot. The rape victim isn't going around doing other crimes and raping people. The rapist is, regardless of whether or not they're a "victim".
Being a victim doesn't give you a free pass to victimize others.
>>47685721
>cultural indoctrination that places women in the position of being gatekeepers of male sexuality
>rapists are victims because society says women can refuse sex
Holy shit are you serious?
>>47685630
Not with that attitude!
>>47685103
To be fair, it isn't for "having connections to bad people" or else it would have been him who killed the DA.
>Still Remove Crack
>>47685798
When I say "connections" I mean "guy who's in the same gang as the dude who stuck up and killed someone".
Honestly, I got the impression the main reason he didn't go for the DA was because even though she was shitty she wasn't nearly as high on his list as the Blacksmith and his goons.
>>47685759
That was not what anyone was talking about and either your reading comprehension is terrible or you need to exercise some restraint on when you splurge your opinions on issues that are only tangentially related to the issue being discussed
>>47684985
>The Punisher
>good
>>47685830
Yeah, I can see that. Honestly Show Frank played fast and loose with his modern comic characterization, not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm a huge comic Frankfag and I still loved that shit. I'm really looking forward to what they're going to do with the show, and if they keep the Blacksmith plot going or spread out into others like MAX
>>47685759
The rapist isn't going around doing other crimes, either. Look up the demographics for rape. The vast majority of rapists are normal highschool and college age kids that don't understand when "no" means no. Being raped at gunpoint in a back alley isn't really a thing that happens.
It's like talking about gun control laws with people that think automatic weapons and AR-style rifles (but not handguns) should be banned, when they account for a tiny, tiny fraction of gun deaths.
>>47685837
It's directly relevant and you're trying to claim otherwise because you're retarded. The claim put forward is that "Perpetrators are Victims too" and the rebuttal is that "That doesn't give them the right to create more victims".
Stop trying to misdirect.
>>47685875
I really loved ShowFrank because he was a great mix of Good and Evil. One one hand, he's a prick who murders people and causes problems for everyone else.
On the other hand, it's weirdly satisfying to watch him beat a guy who sells pedo shit with a baseball bat.They're giving him his own series
>>47685585
>is understanding that criminals are victims themselves.
The only possible way this can be "logical" is if you lump any person who commits a crime into the singular category of "criminal" and never subdivide it into better categories.
Yes, crackwhores are victims of substance abuse, and their actions can be explained (though NOT excused) by their actions, but serial rapists who grab women off the street and rape them just for the pure sexual thrill of deviancy are not significantly less of a victim, and they're sure as hell less of a victim than their own victims.
Explanations for behavior are NOT an excuse for them. Yes, crack is an addictive substance, and addiction is a disease, but at the end of the day if you steal an HVAC unit to pay for your crack habit, you have committed a crime and deserve the punishment for doing so. You deserve to be helped for your addiction, but you must still pay the price for your actions.
>>47685898
I think that was a big appeal. He was a lot rougher than Comic Frank, less "Criminal Terminator" and more of a very angry person expressing it in shitty ways. Kind of like a retrospective of "What Punisher was like in his early days".I FUCKING KNOW. HYPE AS SHIT
>>47685059
>lawful neutral
vigilantism is outside the law
They both chaotic good senpai.
>>47685894
Yep, your reading comprehension is terrible
Nobody is defending the rapist's crime. What is being discussed is that the rapist himself was most likely led to his crime by a culture that objectifies women, and not just because he decided to go rape someone on a vacuum
>>47685879
>The vast majority of rapists are normal highschool and college age kids that don't understand when "no" means no.
That's still skeevy as fuck and easily solved by not being a shitheel. You don't need a lifetime of developmental coaching to stop and think "huh this person is uncomfortable with this, maybe I should leave her alone" or "maybe this girl's too drunk".
Rape culture is a load of horseshit but you're not a victim yourself if you refuse to see the difference between right and wrong.
>>47685513
Nah anon. His first appearance was as a mercenary working for the Jackal to take out Spider-man. He'd been tricked into believing that Spider-Man was a murderer, and predictably flipped shit when he realized the Jackal had played him.
His "shooting at Jay walkers" phase wasn't until a few years later, and was explicitly the result of him losing his mind, later ret-conned to being drug-induced madness sprung on him by an enemy. Most of the time in between he was a grim, brutal but fairly reasonable antagonist/temporary ally of various super heroes who would usually show up hunting the villain of the week and have to be convinced not to murderize said villain. He also could be convinced to spare mooks while working with the likes of Spider-Man or Captain America.
pic unrelated
>>47685973
That's because nobody is saying the rapist is a crime OF THE RAPE ITSELF, but that he's a victim of cultural indoctrination
>>47685946
>What is being discussed is that the rapist himself was most likely led to his crime by a culture that objectifies women, and not just because he decided to go rape someone on a vacuum
Both are entirely real and equal possibilities, especially if we're talking forcible, violent rape here.
Also, forcible rapists almost ALWAYS have maternal issues that compound their behavior, typically an extremely controlling and/or abusive mother, and they "lash out" at women because of a deep seated anger at their past and the abuses they themselves suffered. In this case, cultural objectification isn't the primary motivator.the argument can certainly be made with regards to spousal or date rape, however.
>>47685991
Yeah, and your claim that cultural indoctrination is somehow the cause and not the person being a fucking cunt is moronic and nonsensical.
>>47685945
The Lawful alignment refers solely to the character's adhering to literal legal decrees
I make all my paladins fall by having the evil emperor put a "No Paladins Allowed" sign on his skull fortress.
>>47685946
> the rapist himself was most likely led to his crime by a culture that objectifies women
>>47685991
>he's a victim of cultural indoctrination
It doesn't work this way, anon. It only takes as shred of common decency to learn no means no regardless of how many Victoria's Secret billboards you see.
"Society gave me blueballs" isn't an excuse. It's not a reason. It's not even a valid explanation. People rape because they never bothered learning boundaries, or because they're maniacs who like to exert power over people.
I'm never gonna go "oh that poor kid" when an actual, honest-to-God rapist gets burnt just because he probably saw a couple commercials for frilly thong underwear.
>>47686019
You are essentially arguing for moral objectivism and dismissing the influence of culture
>>47685774
It's not a matter of being allowed to refuse sex. The issue is where society measures men by their ability to have sex with many partners, and women by their restraint in choosing partners. You now have two populations with opposing goals that are forced together. It becomes a competition that pits men against women. Both men and women often resort to violence in order to achieve their goal, but since most men are significantly stronger than most women, men tend to use physical violence more often and women tend to use emotional violence more often. Obviously that's not to say that it's rare for things to happen the other way around.
The solution isn't to lock up men who commit rape, because that won't prevent more women from being raped. No one is going to stop and think "maybe I shouldn't rape this girl because I might go to prison," because they don't think what they're doing even counts as rape in the first place because they're not an evil bogeyman in a back alley with a knife to her throat.
>>47686035
Not that anon but there's a case to be made for calling Frank chaotic neutral, because he just decides who deserves to die on no basis besides his own judgment.
>>47686051
Most rape isn't someone getting horny and physically overwhelming a woman to forcefully penetrate her. It's mostly people without a modicum of self-awareness not realizing when they've gone too far on situations they perceive as being appropiate
>>47686079
You're right in a lot of ways but
>society measures
This is a bit misleading. We evolved for millions of years, and throughout that evolution, males genetically desired to inseminate as many females as possible, and females genetically desired to be as choosy as possible to select the best genes. Society does exacerbate this, but its roots are in who we are as a species.
>>47686059
And you are dismissing free will and personal choice in the pursuit of seeing cruel and malicious people through a sympathetic lens. Culture is highly effective, but in this day and age it's not an excuse when we have access to literally every culture ever and their views on shit.
Not even to mention that sex criminals are seen as less than fucking dirt in almost every culture, anyways.
>>47686051
I don't think that anon is saying this indoctrination excuses the heinous crimes of the rapist, but that they explain the action. What he's suggesting is probably rehabilitation over punishment.
>>47684985
>Guardian Sect
>Mercy Killers
>>47686112
See I still just don't buy that. I'm not gonna feel bad for the kid, even if he's just being stupid instead of malevolent.
Now there is a growing trend of any guy acting in any way sexually forward getting accused of rape. That's one thing. But continuing to grope a girl even though she's obviously uncomfortable or banging someone who's blackout drunk when you're basically sober is pretty shitty behavior. And it's behavior you can manage by just having a bit of common sense and empathy.
>>47685397
Not him, and really not agreeing with him, but I find it amusing that "Our God is a just God" is often used to justify atrocious treatment of 'criminals' in the bible and elsewhere.
Got that just-ness goin' on there.
>>47686112
>Most rape is nonviolent!
So are you claiming that people who roofy chicks somehow think that they're justified? Because nobody thinks that shit.
>>47685585
Yeah, yeah, everybody who commits evil acts does so due to reasons. That doesn't take away the fact that these people still cause problems for the rest of society.
Kid born into a life of gang violence and drugs? Yeah, in a better environment, he might've not been involved in those things, but that doesn't mean we can ignore the problem. Even with a lifetime of attempted rehabilitation, his chances will still be slim of turning back on his old life and staying clean at the first sign of tough times. You really have to weigh the lives of others against the offender and decide on that merit. Sure, it would be nice to give someone a second chance, but not at the cost of damaging already functioning people in the process.
The Punisher simply removes offending elements from society. Mostly this is just out of compulsion, but sometimes it's in a vague pursuit to improve the lives of everyone else, to prevent other families from being destroyed. I especially like his character at the end of Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe,as he doesn't see himself above being "punished" either. He recognizes his actions are destructive to others and sees it as something that will be dealt with too.
>>47686137
>cruel and malicious
Some college douche not realizing when he's making a girl uncomfortable is less cruelty and maliciousness and more stupidity and lack of empathy.
Getting a girl drunk so you can have your way with her is maliciousness, not realizing she's too drunk before having sex isn't. Both are still rape, but one is almost definitely worse than the other.
>Not even to mention that sex criminals are seen as less than fucking dirt in almost every culture, anyways.
VIOLENT rapists, yes. There's many types of rape and some people discuss if many should be even considered rape.
>>47686187
No, and that's not even a tiny bit close to what I'm saying on any way, just your strawman
>>47686205
>Magneto
>The Hulk
>>47686209
Here we go again with removing free will and personal choice. If someone's so fucking drunk that they can't move, nobody thinks it's okay to fuck them. You're still a scumfuck in everyone's eyes if you pull that.
>Getting a girl drunk so you can have sex with her is maliciousness
Okay friend, all barsex is rape
>>47686122
That's wrong, though. Humanity's closest living relatives are bonobos, who have sex with a dozen different partners every day. The problem isn't our evolutionary directives, it's our cultural refusal to admit that we are just animals.
>>47686209
>Lack of empathy
You hit the nail on the head. He's not raping a girl because he wants her to suffer, he's raping a girl because he doesn't care enough if she does or doesn't. He doesn't know her. He doesn't care. His animal brain is telling him she's got a hole and he wants to get his rocks off, and his human brain is telling him he might get away with it, or maybe he isn't even thinking about that.
>>47686234
If it's a strawman, debunk it instead of throwing out fallacies like you just got back from the website they're all listed on and think throwing them in will make you look smarter, you fucking retard.
>>47686241
To be fair, they were zombies at the time.
>Still stupid
>>47686258
You don't need to be "so fucking drunk you can't move" to act against your best judgement.
>Okay friend, all barsex is rape
What? Now you're going to turn around and tell me knowingly getting a girl drunk for the purpose of having sex with her, while knowing she most likely wouldn't consent while sober, isn't rape?
>>47686273
>like you just got back from the website they're all listed on
Does such a website exist? Because half the time when I'm in a thread it feels like every other person browses it.
>>47686273
I don't need to "debunk" what is a deliberate misreading of my post and not an actual argument
>>47686301
If you think that being drunk is a justification for making stupid decisions, you're a fucking idiot. It's a reason. It's not an excuse.
>>47684985
Frank is LN at best
arguably LE
>>47686316
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
You can always tell when people have it open in another tab when they just respond with one of them.
>>47686265
Now the problem is deciding if that's a crime on the same magnitude as violent rape, and if they should be punished on the same way
Someone who doesn't care for other people has a better chance of learning the consequences of his actions than someone who goes out of his way to harm others
>>47686324
What the fuck do you think I'm arguing for in that post?
>>47686209
Pretty much all rape is rape in the eyes of the public. A guy being branded for life for hooking up with a freshman chick in high school when he was a senior who was three years and 1 1/2 months older than her and her mom called the cops a week later when a friend told her, leading to the guy having to wear a fucking brand of "SEX OFFENDER" for the next 12 years is STILL seen as a rapist by the general population, because the law has branded him as such.
>>47686352
You'd have to take into account how affected the victim was, too.
>>47686352
I should point out what started this whole thing was a guy saying Lawful Good means
>understanding that criminals are victims themselves.
And he immediately backtracked to a really specific case of crime where the motivator is sometimes stupidity and lack of common sense than actual malevolence.
>>47686205
Just locking people away isn't a solution. You have to do it permanently, otherwise you're just sending people to criminal school for 10 or 15 years and then releasing them back into society. At that point you might as well just kill them, but I don't think anyone advocates the death sentence for jaywalking or software piracy.
The solution to crime is removing the situations that lead to crime. That doesn't mean we should ignore thieves and rapists and murderers, but it does mean that we shouldn't shoot ourselves in the foot by forcing them to join gangs to survive their time in prison. Instead we should be rehabilitating them and preparing them to become productive members of society.
Now, I realize that there are some people that will never have a place in society, and we should have high security asylums for the Charles Mansons of the world. But those people are incredibly rare; on the order of a mere handful compared to the millions of people we currently have locked in prisons.
>>47686301
If you know your judgement is compromised while under the influence, why would you ever put yourself in that situation in the first place? At least have someone with you to make those decisions for you when you go out drinking, it's not hard. I've had my brother save me from all sorts of dumb shit after knocking back too many.
>>47686392
It's not "really specific" when it represents most of the instances of that crime
>>47686392
For the record, I was not the one that brought up rape. If the first counterexample was theft or murder, I would have gone that way.
>>47686402
It really comes down to the severity of the crime and the context for the crime, and that's the problem with the justice system. Someone who killed someone in a barfight probably shouldn't be locked away for life, someone who shot their family because they were 'frustrated' should probably get the fucking chair, but there's little room in the modern justice system for context. It's not a simple problem to fix, either. Who decides the context?
>>47686421
Most people don't, and shouldn't need to, operate under the assumption they're going to get raped
It's a good idea to bring someone with you, but that doesn't mean the victim is equally at fault as the actual perpetrator
>>47685374
>That said I'm not a mental health professional
I can tell. Psychopathy develops earlier. Frank had a traumatic event happen to him at the same time as he got brain damage from a bullet wound. A label like "psychopath" doesn't cover the effects of those events.
>>47684985
Punisher is Chaotic Lawful
>>47686451
>I can tell
Oh don't be shitty. I'm not calling Frank an actual clinical psychopath. Just his behavior is similar to those of actual people with psychopathy, so it's not some cardinal sin for laymen to jump to that conclusion.
>>47686442
>someone who shot their family because they were 'frustrated' should probably get the fucking chair
If someone were frustrated enough to shoot their family, there's probably some serious shit going down, probably psychiatric in nature. Instead of just killing him or her in turn, why not make an attempt to actually identify the problem and fix it?
>>47686447
Evil motherfuckers exist in the world and you shouldn't just pretend they don't exist. You avoid getting mugged by staying out of bad areas of town, you avoid getting burgled by not making it easy to get into your house, you avoid getting carjacked by locking your doors. Rape isn't going to magically dissapear, ever, and you should take steps to prevent it yourself just like you would any crime.
Nobody deserves to get mugged, but if you wander through downtown Detroit with a gold chain hanging out of your pocket and checking your Iphone every ten seconds, you're going to get fucking mugged.
>>47686507
This is one of many reasons most death sentences take so long to get carried out.
Also, some people are just assholes, anon.
>>47686507
Because the expense is too great for someone who's already been identified as a violent criminal
Call me prejudiced, but I could never fully trust someone who killed his family even if I have no reason to think he's anything but fully reformed
>>47686447
While I agree with you generally, you don't get to go out and voluntarily warp your judgement, and then call bullshit when you end up doing something stupid.
If I went to a bar, got drunk, went home with some chick, and realized she was hideously deformed the next morning, could I accuse her of rape?
>>47686507
Identify the problem so it can be stopped in later cases, sure, but if someone murders their family, think kids, mother, siblings, aunts and uncles. All of them couldn't have done a mile's worth of personal grievance to get him to that point, so he's killing innocent people because of his own neurosis. At a certain point you have to acknowledge the lives he's taken.
>>47685746
The problem anon is that free will likely doesn't exist. Criminals are not examples of people who actively conspired to be awful people, but a sad misfortune of events all conspiring together to create a miserable situation for everybody. It's like a malfunctioning tool or machine. Sure you might yell at it and blame it for its faults, but this is ultimately counter-productive if not futile. The only solutions are either to fix it so the problem doesn't happen again, or get rid of it and get a new machine.
>>47686552
You don't murder your own children because you're an asshole. I'd call that ASOIAF-tier edgefaggotry, but I don't think even gurm stooped that low.
>>47686562
I think you should look into how much it costs to keep someone locked up for life. Check out got much it costs to give someone the death sentence while you're at it, you might be surprised.
>>47685324
Isn't there a rational line of moral philosophy that basically argues the golden rule or the Kantian universality test or whatever? The world would be a better place to live in if everyone were merciful rather than if everyone dispensed harsh justice.
You'd have to really believe that the strongest people or the majority of people are capable of and willing to adhere to some objective standard of justice, without bias or contradiction, to believe that a universal rule of justice would make a healthier and happier world than a universal rule of mercy. If you believe people are fallible, mercy is the clear logical choice for a universal rule.
>>47686609
>Free will likely doesn't exist
>>47686610
That's usually because giving someone the death sentence involves so many appeals, retrials, and separate living arrangements that it becomes more expensive and has nothing to do with actually killing the motherfucker.
>>47686447
Not even rape, but when I'm wasted, I think it's a great idea to drive, to go out to the shooting range with buddies, to be a loud ass fucker in a public place, and to generally say the first thing that pops in my mind. Even disregarding dragging some big dude with a hundred tattoos back to my car for a shag, there's plenty of reasons to have someone else handle your decisions for you when you drink.
>>47686596
At that point you have to acknowledge that this is not a person that is in their right mind, and wouldn't have done those things if someone had noticed what was going on earlier. Also, see >>47686402
>Now, I realize that there are some people that will never have a place in society, and we should have high security asylums for the Charles Mansons of the world
Also, this is a ridiculous hypothetical that probably hasn't happened more than once or twice in the twenty thousand years of human history.
>>47686671
>go out to the shooting range with buddies
please tell me what range you go to so I can never go there
>>47686610
I know death/life sentences are extremely expensive, what worries me more is how much it would cost to get them treatment, which I'm guessing is not as easy to find data on
Even if you put that person back into society, who would employ him? Wouldn't the people who he's going to be close with every day have the right to know his criminal records?
>>47686669
Do you really trust your government to not fuck these kinds of things up? How many innocent lives is one guilty life worth?
>>47686679
Mass murder and familial homicide happens all of the time, not 'once or twice'. There are more fucked up people than you give credit for, and those people really shouldn't be patted on the back and let loose back into the world.
>>47686679
Far more than that I'd say. Would you want to live next to a Vlad the Impaler or Genghis Khan? The Mongols conquests killed more people than WWI with technology several centuries more primitive
>>47686650
It doesn't. Virtually everything about is controlled by outside stimuli affecting the way we think. Even the bacteria you are host to can directly warp your behavior, and your genes can even cause you to commit murder as was proven with at least one criminal case, and likely more in the near future (genes can be expressed to certain degrees that turn you into a murderous psychopath suddenly without any hope of you being able to stop yourself).
>Punisher
He acts completely outside the laws of society. This would make him chaotic.
BUT
He acts completely within his own personal moral code and almost never deviates. This would make him lawful.
Really, his persona shows how lacking the law-chaos axis is. He's breaking some laws to better enforce others. He can't even be considered to be neutral, since law-chaos isn't really an average of actions.
As for Good-Evil, that's too subjective to say. He's good for removing criminal elements from society. He's evil for disregarding the law and sometimes endangering bystanders in the process. I think it's safe to say the Punisher is outside of alignment, and simply a force of nature.
>>47686685
The one in my back yard. You're safe.
What range would allow a drunk person on it?
>>47686693
Menial labor. Truck driver. Etc. There's always low paying jobs the dregs of society can fill.
>>47686693
About six according to the market data
>>47686693
It's significantly less expensive because you're actively reducing crime and not contributing to its growth. Putting people in prison is just subsidizing their "how to be a criminal" training. When they come out, they commit more crimes and drag other people into it to.
Ideally, rehabilitated criminals should be no more likely to commit additional crimes than the general population and it should not be taken into account for employment. It's ridiculous to think that a nonviolent crime committed as a youth should ruin one's life forever.
>>47685374
>>47686764
>Backyard
Alright cool bro. I've heard some horror stories from /k/ about people getting let in with just 'a few beers' knocked back.
>>47686713
>>47686730
This hypothetical is someone that is methodically searching out murdering his entire family specifically because he's frustrated.
>>47685324
>>47686816
One of the best lines from Rucka's run is when Thor finds him out in the desert.
>Surely your war has not so consumed your life that you cannot enjoy a beer?
>The war is my life.
>Then you fight for nothing. Drink with me.
And then they both crack open a beer.
>>47684985
You misunderstand alignments.
Specific actions are non-aligned. Alignment provides motivation for actions--it is not inherent in actions.
Either one's actions can be considered to run the entire gamut from lawful good to chaotic evil. Because their actions don't define their alignment, and it would be up to the player to determine how their alignment defined their actions.
>>47686792
>Ideally, rehabilitated criminals should be no more likely to commit additional crimes than the general population and it should not be taken into account for employment.
We don't live in an ideal world. Employers will take it into account and likely hire the non-felon over the felon.
>>47684985
Punisher is Lawful Neutral
>Break a certain moral code, you die. Don't break it, I might fuck you up to get the other guy or leave you alone.
Daredevil is Chaotic Good.
>Follows the law or breaks it, whichever suits the situation best.
>>47686910
Annnnd that just pushes them right the fuck back into committing crimes because they have nothing else they can do to put food in their mouths.
>>47686442
Actually there is. Judges tend to have fair bit of leeway in their sentencing
>>47685324
Justice is not vengeance. Justice is the criminal making restitution for their act to society, not to just the victim, and society as a whole is better if mercy is shown when applicable and proper rehabilitation is performed on the guilty.
>inb4 "proper rehabilitation = killing all criminals"
>>47686156
Rehabilitation doesn't stop a person from being who they are, you cannot change a persons nature, and rape is a display of a persons true nature. You can go on and on about "if society wasn't the way it was they wouldn't have raped anyone" but you have billions of people going about their lives NOT raping people. A person who rapes another person has something inherently wrong with themselves, and telling them "hey now, don't you go rapin' people, thats a bad thing!" Isn't going to stop them
Take for example Brock Turner, a recent case where Brock Turner was raping an unconscious woman for nearly a half an hour behind a dumpster, he was found by two witnesses who had to pull him off the woman, he was arrested and charged, and guess what, the guy only got six months of county jail time and a year of probation. During the court case his father actually came in and talked to the court, saying his son's life is forever ruined because HE raped a woman.
Is James Bond LE?
>>47686739
>Silly kids, edge is for real.
Radical Freedom, you fucking skeleton.
You can raise a person in a situation where violence seems like the only solution towards other people's, and occasionally one of the bastards still chooses to do the peaceful option.
Freewill may only be an appetite of the consciousness, like The James hints, but something strange happens at the moment of decision that Foucault's, and your, philosophy cannot quite explain to a satisfactory degree.
>>47686265
Rape usually isn't about the rapist getting off on it, it's usually about the power, about someone being under your absolute control.
>>47686693
You can usually get a job at some shitty place even if you have a criminal record. I've worked at Hooters and almost half the people who have worked there have criminal records, one person just got off probation, one I used to know even had a ankle bracelet and another one was a sex offender.
>>47686985
Not going to say that isn't true, but by knowing someone's criminal history, he's made immediately less appealing to me as an employee. Yes, that's damaging to the criminal. No, I'm not going to place his rehabilitation over my rights to know if someone is a felon.
>>47686985
>they do it to put food in their mouth
Please. Criminals can typically get jobs, often shitty ones. But crime pays better for less work. And don't need to pass a drug test to be a criminal.
>>47687150
>hooters sex offenders
holy shit it writes itself
>>47687193
You shouldn't have to pass a drug test to be gainfully employed, as long as you're not getting fucked up while you're on the clock. There's zero reason for treating marijuana or cocaine any differently than alcohol.
>>47687430
One of these things is not like the others. And by "not like the others," I mean not an illicit substance.
You're speaking in hypotheticals; I'm attempting to speak as things are.
>>47687430
Despite not liking drug use, I agree with this sentiment. So long as you separate what you do in your free time from what you do at work, I don't care if you shoot heroin in your eyeballs in your time off (Except for the fact you might stop showing up to work entirely on account of death, that sort of disappoints me).
Employers hire workers, and all that matters is their actions during work hours. Seems like more and more places are using tools like the internet and social networking to determine a near complete look at someone's past in modern times, to the point where employers are starting to question applicants why they don't have facebook accounts or other various stuff.
>>47687453
>Oh no, those things are illegal!
Making them not illegal is as easy as passing a law that says they're not illegal anymore. Or any branch of government realizing that the executive doesn't actually have the power to ban any drugs.
>>47687497
You realize that people who immediately correlate illegal activity with being the scum of the earth are a significant amount of the world with disposable income? It behooves most companies to keep a professional, respectable image (to this crowd) because that gets customers.
>>47684985
Matt is NG. Frank is CN.
>>47687477
The only reason drugs are dangerous is because of all the shit they're cut with. If it weren't for prohibition, the free market would be allowed to have its way and cheap, pure drugs with clearly marked dosages would be the norm, and those scary "this is what you will look like the first time you use heroin" pictures will be a thing of the past.
>>47687593
Except if you make it legal, it won't be illegal anymore. I don't understand what's so hard to comprehend about this concept.
>>47687497
You asked why marijuana or cocaine should be treated differently than alcohol. I answered you. Because they are illegal, ipse facto, their usage by employees is treated differently.
I'm not mincing about what drug laws should be like. I'm telling you how they are.
>>47687696
Marijuana and cocaine being illegal is treating them differently than alcohol. Using that as an explanation of why they should be treated differently is circular reasoning.
>>47686094
Yeah, it's the classic question.
Would the Punisher punish a Jaywalker?
>>47687665
>Completely agree with legalizing drugs but
are you claiming that heroin is safe in it's pure form
Fucking Donatists.
>>47685644
I remember those rich kids who set a hobo on fire.
What are they victims of?
What about mobsters and big shot cartel members?
You're just adhering to leftist shit and basing your worldview on the notion that everything is a measured reaction to somethign else, which is fucking retarded.
>>47687765
Depends on who's writing him.
>Ennis: Stares at him angrily, then goes off to murder a kidnapper
>Whedon: Murders the jaywalker and strangles a child with his intenstines because THIS IS WHAT PUNISHER IS REALLY LIKE GUYS
>>47687825
Dude, move on. Argument is over.
>>47687765
He shouldn't, since jaywalking is a stupid law that was created by the automobile industry to push blame for people getting run over off themselves and onto the victims instead.
>>47687807
Are you claiming it's not? Opiates are incredibly safe, although there's plenty of safety concerns with IV administration.
>>47687870
I don't know if I can entirely agree. Every time I drive in Seattle I witness some of the dumbest fucking pedestrians on earth and the idea of the shit they do not putting them at fault is terrifying, but I hear that's just a local phenomenon
>>47685721
> and one victim of cultural indoctrination that places women in the position of being gatekeepers of male sexuality
jesus fucking christ
The fact that something requires an agreement between two people when one may not agree does not make that person 'the gatekeeper'. There is no entitlement here. If you want to do literally anything with someone else it's on you to convince them that you're worth spending time with
> DM are victims of cultural indoctrination that places players in the position of being gatekeepers of DM's game-uality
>>47684985
I'm no expert, but I'd say Punisher is extreme Lawful Good. He follows his code strictly and doesn't make compromises... It's just that his code involves extreme violence and murder.
>>47687916
Oh, don't get me wrong, the idea of the jaywalking law is fine, especially in this day and age, trying to skip across roads is practically suicide, but the truth of the jaywalking law is fucking stupid, it's literally blame shifting by calling people filthy hillbillies (thats what "jay" means) because people were running pedestrians all over the place when cars were first being commercially available, and there was a risk of them being outright banned, so the automobile companies threw their money behind advert campaigns to blame shift the whole thing to the victims and people waling in the road by insulting them, and it worked so well it became a law.
Remember that this was in the era where the roads were where everyone used, people walking, riding bikes, playing in the road, trollies, everyone was on the road
>>47687950
>Implying that games where the DM and the players are actively working against each other aren't cancer
Take a group of players that have D&D as their only form of entertainment and then give them a string of DMs that resort to "rocks fall, you die." If you don't expect someone to get punched in that situation, you're an idiot.
>>47687974
Sure, and redneck refers to coal miners that wanted to unionize, but that's more trivia than anything worth arguing about
>>47684985
Oh absolutely not, no. Neither one of them.
Daredevil is Neutral Good, leaning LG. Punisher is, if you really push it, Lawful Neutral, but in reality he's pretty much Lawful Evil.
>>47687665
Nah, drugs aren't very safe and have higher addictive properties than most substances along with stronger withdrawal effects. I think snorting coke on a regular basis is still a pretty dumb thing, but I'm not one to stop people from doing dumb shit, so long as they take responsibility for their actions.
If you snort enough to cause an arrhythmia or heart failure, I can't really give you any sympathy. You knew the risks, and now you face the consequences.
>>47687970
>>47688083
"Bad dudes must die" is hardly enough to qualify Punisher for Lawful, or else Robin "steal from the rich and give to the poor" Hood would be Lawful. There's no "code," Frank's just stubborn. He's frequently convinced not to kill people, and his targets are selected based almost entirely on whoever pissed him off most recently or is the most convenient. 100% Chaotic.
>>47685103
>His murder spree reached almost three dozen before you actually saw his face in the TV show.
Pretty sure the number of kills he has has been counted, and it is literally higher than people responsible for actual genocide. The biggest serial killers in history are simply PLAYING at murder compared to him.
My question would be how is Marvel so completely fucked up a world that he can kill that many people and still have literally no end in sight.
>>47688221
"Vigilante" pretty much always falls under some form of chaotic either way
>>47687110
Yes it can. They likely had some gene expressing in a certain fashion that caused them to resist "evil" actions, or outside stimuli from chemicals to air content could have had similar effects. The human body is a delicate thing and easily influenced by innumerable different variables that can have noticeable effects on the functions of the mind. Free Will is simply an illusion resulting from complexity that we have not fully mapped.
>>47687765
Depends on the writer. Some writers have literally had him do that.
Or go after Heroes because they are vigilantes technically, which is a crime.
>>47688206
Nearly all of the side effects of recreational drugs are due to adulterants, poor processing, and poor hygiene. For example, the US requires opiates to be cut with Acetaminophen, which has much more severe chronic side effects.
And for the record, fentanyl, one of the more potent opioids, has a therapeutic index 27 times higher than that of alcohol. Marijuana has a TI 4,000 times greater than alcohol. Alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine are actually some of the most dangerous drugs that are commonly available.
Frank Castle is Lawful Evil, acting solely on self interest and his personal definition of how order and civility is maintained by culling.
Murdoc is the more conflicted character that struggles with how enjoying what he does sometimes means he's not only in it to do good. He also puts the "mission" above his personal relationships. I would say he's likely N. He hopes to preserve something that isn't static, protect and serve while being above the law, and puts himself before those closest to him even if it is for a greater good. He's a bundle of contradictions, and struggles to understand extremism like Stick or the Hand or Frank Castle.
>>47688313
>Being this certain that genes are the only arbitrator for behavior.
2 out of 10, Twinkie defense pls go. If you actually meant any of the shit out of your mouth, you'd link to a source so we could ridicule the lone 'scientist' who agrees with you that genes determine everything.
>>47688243
Have you ever seen how broad a cartel or mob's fingers can reach? Just looking at a single cartel in south Texas alone, there can be over a hundred men involved to various degrees in some cities with dozens in smaller towns. And that's avoiding places like Houston which can be crawling with them.
The other issue is that a lot of people with connections to organized crime have just that -- connections -- and don't really partake in anything criminal themselves. Someone who runs a legitimate business that they use as a front for someone else's actions or to gather intel is still guilty of their crimes, even if it is to a lesser degree.
Cleaning up these gangs can be a completely exhausting process, the Punisher just mets out judgement to all involved without trying to assign a completely fair sentence to each.
>>47684985
As generally interpreted, Punisher isn't good. He just channels his evil constructively.
>>47688243
>Pretty sure the number of kills he has has been counted
I mean, it depends on the comic but I think the MAX version was something like 3000. Not genocide levels, but still insane.
>>47688221
Yeah that's fair. Most people will argue about 'he only kills criminals', which is why I usually tag him as Lawful to avoid arguments.
>>47685746
>Yeah but that crackwhore's pimp ain't a fucking victim.
In real life no one wakes up and decides to be pimps for crackwhores. They grow up without parents to provide moral direction, they grow up in environments where they are constantly abused and so either grow callus or are forced to retaliate to survive.
Its why DnD alignments break down in real life, no one is 100% pure and good and no one is 100% evil and sinister.
>>47685746
this
>>47688751
Not always true. Lot of criminals slowly devolve into it. Someone gets a taste of theft stealing company supplies, moves up to taking bigger stuff, finally winds up straight up allocating funds on bogus contracts or skimming off the top of every job. Another person feels slighted by someone, lust for revenge and justice builds up to petty conflict, and then outright hatred between two parties. A guy takes in a prostitute to help her mend her ways, she continually abuses his trust, and he eventually breaks down and treats her like a whore, pimping her out and taking his cut. No one tells the class they want to grow up to be crackwhore pimps, but the little actions they take cause them to fall into it over time.
>>47687689
You are truly ignorant if you believe that people dislike things just because they're illegal and "just making them not illegal" will instantly dispel all of the stigma.
>>47685509
>They are, by all means, people who even society and the average civilian would deem evil and would give the death sentence, but since the judicial system isn't perfect, the Punisher has to deal with them instead.
Or maybe the judicial system is right and he's wrong?
Man brothers Karamazov is a pretty good book.
>>47685630
Explain why not.
>>47685746
I don't think anyone is saying that criminals don't deserve punishment, just that the world doesn't work in black and white
>>47685630
Sounds like a locked room mystery to me
>>47688878
There's people that dislike alcohol. I've never heard of a company that says you're not allowed to drink your own time as long as you're not drunk or hung over on the clock.
>>47688970
Actually, I am saying that. I'm in favor of reducing crime rates, but evidence shows that punishment as currently administered by the justice system is counterproductive to that goal.
>>47687665
I am not disagreeing with you, but you must understand that the free market isn't some god. If drugs were made legal with little to no regulation, then they'd be anything but cheap and pure. I say "little to no regulation" because any regulation is detrimental to the so called "free market."
>>47688878
I would say that removing the stigma from illegal substances and actions is easier than you might think. While it would never be a clean break I think any stigma would eventually settle on alcohol level of fear. There's still AA and getting drunk 24/7 is still looked heavily down upon.
>>47688948
Damn straight.
>>47689067
Well, yeah, because a free market can't actually exist. Without government regulation you'll just have monopolies form that regulate the market themselves. But if you were to move recreational drug production from garages to clean rooms, the public will only benefit.
Catholic acrobatic and frankly frank
>>47689106
Alcohol has never had even a fraction of the stigma other drugs have, it's a frankly awful comparison.
>>47686706
It'd be the other way.
How many guilty lives are worth one innocent?
>>47689066
Alcohol is an awful comparison, the stigmas surrounding it aren't even a fraction of the ones around other drugs. And companies have been passing over prospective employees who get publicly drunk (and then post about it on social media) for years.
>>47689259
No, it's really not. If you'd rather kill convicts straight off rather than wait through the appeals process, you're guaranteed to kill at least some innocent people. How often do you think the courts convict innocent people? 1% of the time? 5%?. How important is it to you to kill off people you don't like? Is it worth accidentally killing one innocent person out of twenty? I'd rather just skip the dilemma entirely and not kill people. Unless, obviously, it's the only way to save someone else who's in immediate danger.
>>47689278
Those stigmas almost entirely grew in the last 20-30 years. They'll go just as quickly as they came.
>>47689363
That's kinda the point though, losing one good person to every twenty murderers still does more good in the long run.
>>47689066
>Actually, I am saying that. I'm in favor of reducing crime rates, but evidence shows that punishment as currently administered by the justice system is counterproductive to that goal.
That's a flawed argument.
When you look at the punishment, and the instance of the crime in question being committed, and draw the conclusion that the punishment doesn't work as a deterrent for crime, you're forgetting a very important detail.
The level at which society can enforce the law and administer the punishment.
People are stupid and take risks, and if there's only 1/100 chance of getting caught, they'll keep doing it even if the punishment is getting their face removed by a cheesegrater and dropped into a polluted river.
But if the chance of getting caught and convicted is 1/10? 1/2?
It's not that the punishment is an ineffective detterrent, it's that since punishment is not swift or certain enough, criminals feel safe in gambling on getting away with it.
>>47686122
>refers to studies done by non-psychologists and non-biologists and respected by no psychologist or biologist claming to be psychology and biology
>>47685673
FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, THE JEDI ARE SAND.
>>47689402
First, the evidence I'm referencing is recidivism rates, especially violent offenses committed by people previously convicted for nonviolent crimes. Put a guy in jail for jaywalking and he's orders magnitude more likely to rob a bank when he comes out.
Second, are you really advocating a dystopian surveillance state where you're constantly monitored and instantly convicted for any minor transgression?
>You have exceeded the speed limit by 1 mph, citizen. That's one day in the iso-cubes.
>>47685721
> you have one victim of violent assault and one victim of cultural indoctrination that places women in the position of being gatekeepers of male sexuality
This is the dumbest shit I ever heard. "Gatekeepers of male sexuality" YES, it takes TWO people to have sex, and neither of them HAVE to have sex. That's how it fucking works. But by phrasing it like that you're making it sound like a fucking conspiracy, or like there's another option, which would be, what? Deciding that all women owe society X amount of sex and need to fill a quota, just so you can get laid?
Is the busdriver the gatekeeper of public transport? Is the store clerk the gatekeeper of nutrition? Are we the gatekeepers of 4chan threads? What does that even mean?
Throw around arguments like that and you'll sound like a redpiller.
>>47689389
Holy shit, people actually think this way? Like, in real life and not some stupid orc baby scenario? Or am I being trolled?
>>47689480
I'm not doing anything of the kind, I'm merely pointing out that you're in error if you think that the severity of the punishment matters more than the overwhelming chance of getting away with it.
It's not some kind of situation where people look at the punishment and go "I still have to do it man, even though I know it's not worth it, for some reason!" it's a situation where people go "eh, I'll probably get away with it anyway"
I'm not arguing for dystopian hyper surveillance, I'm arguing that lowering the punishment is a surrender, there's nothing wrong with the punishment, it's just that people are going to be stupid risk takers for as long as they think they're likely to get away with something.
The death penalty doesn't look that scary when you divide it by a hundred.
Besides, the recidivism rate you're referring to is in the context of a specific, and horrible justice system. It's not some kind of universal law, but yes, throw people into a dysfunctional justice system and they'll end up worse when they come out, absolutely. That's an argument for fixing the prisons, not getting rid of punishments.
>>47684985
Depends on edition.
Gygax, from his own posts, would consider Punisher LG, a righteous warrior who pitilessly slaughters the evil and those associated with them.
Daredevil, in the same paradigm, is Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral as mercy has no place in a fantasy game and thus only rebellious spirits would indulge such folly. However, he did note Chaotic Good characters are likely to enslave evil foes to attempt corrective brainwashing.
Later, in Spell hammer, it was clarified that Genocide is a Chaotic Good act, because while it is not socially acceptable, it is the correct thing to do...
So AD&D we get a Chaotic Good Punisher and a Neutral Good Daredevil.
WotC tried to sort this mess, but didn't help.
So, both unaligned as they are more obsesed with thier personal idioms than the forces of good or evil.
>>47689541
Or fifteen-thousand.
It's the reason why something like a DMI program, which targets a few dozen drug dealers can be so effective. Because for every drug bust, there are something like 15,000 successful deals.
>>47685091
>DnD alignment is stupid
It was one of the first quick, simple and easy ways to codify morality for young people, a topic that fills entire wings of libraries all over the world.
Daredevil is Lawful Neutral, you can start getting all twisted out of shape about it but at the end of the day that is what is intended and what the layman would say he is.
The Punisher can be justified as Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil depending on which attributes of his you push to the forefront.
>>47689491
Please tell me where exactly you think I've gone wrong in my reasoning:
>Society says men need to fuck as many women as they can
>Society says women are used goods after having sex with a comparatively number of men
>Girls are raised to be highly discerning in their choice of sexually partners
>Boys are raised being told that sex is a requirement for manhood
>Women find themselves in a position where they're constantly assailed by men wanting to take their "precious virtue"
>Men find themselves in a position where they're judged to be inferior human beings if they don't lose their virginity by a certain age
>Men and women have social requirements that are diametrically opposed
>This causes ingroup/outgroup polarization
>Both groups are forced to interact constantly by both cultural and biological pressures
>This inevitably ends in violence
>>47689621
>>Society says women are used goods after having sex with a comparatively *small* number of men
Fixed
>>47684985
Punisher:
Targets evil doers and removes them from the world. Follows a code. Does not respect the authorities or written law.
In D&D terms, it kind of depends on what definition of the alignments you use.
More modern definitions don't really consider the part about not respecting authority or written law to be contrary to goodness (there could be evil societies with evil laws, clearly breaking them can't be evil?) but some of the definitions would disqualify him from being Lawful Good and put him at Lawful Neutral for those reasons.
In either case, his adherence to his own code/rules of engagement disqualifies him from Chaotic status, and the fact that he specifically targets those he deems evil and makes an effort to not harm civilians disqualifies him from Evil.
Daredevil: Fights evil outside the boundary of the written law, but believes that the ultimate arbiter of final judgement must be written law.
In this case it's not as clear cut, but it becomes simple when you consider Matt Murdock and Daredevil as separate entitites.
Matt Murdock is lawful good.
Daredevil is Chaotic good.
>>47689541
>It's not some kind of universal law, but yes, throw people into a dysfunctional justice system and they'll end up worse when they come out, absolutely. That's an argument for fixing the prisons, not getting rid of punishments.
Fixing prisons means getting rid of them as we know them today, and turning them into glorified support groups, with walls optional.
The more effective part of reducing crime rates is by killing off organized crime and drug serfdom by ending prohibition.
>>47689621
You're wrong where you're exaggerating like a motherfucker and where you use "society" to mean "a specific society that can't fucking make up it's mind about this shit"
Where I'm from we don't go to frat parties on saturdays and church on sundays.
Where I'm from people would be creeped out by your line of reasoning.
You honestly sound like the biggest fucking virgin who just read one of those "the secret to banging more women!" books that has a foreword about how we're all programmed to rape all the women and that the rest are betas, or some kind of redpill rant about how pussy rules the world.
>>47689259
ALL OF THEM.
>>47685481
I think part of the point is that Paladins kill in an ordered, black and white society, and the Punisher kills in a society that is morally grey, and which he believes is corrupt.
>>47689621
Do you really think men only want to have sex because "society" tells them they should?
>>47689682
Except you're arguing based on I assume, the US prison system, which is basically the most retarded in the world except maybe for the south american shitholes where the prisoners run the prisons.
Glorified support groups work pretty well you know. If you decide that you're not going to discard broken people, but try to fix them, they make a lot more sense than "we'll, we're not going to kill you, but we're going to put you in this shithole for 10 years and pretend like that won't make you worse when you come out"
A society needs to decide if it's going to have a judicial system based on vengeance (make prisoners suffer/die for doing bad shit) or if it's going to have one based on rehabilitation (if we're not going to kill them and be rid of them, at least we should make sure they're less dangerous when they get out.)
I would argue that you can't have both, and that if you're set on not killing them, the rehabilitation option makes more sense than the vengeance option.
If a dog bites someone, you put it down, or you train it until you're sure it won't bite anyone else.
You don't put it in a cage and poke it with a stick for 12 years and then let it back out.
>>47689502
Well, well. Explain why they are wrong.
>>47689726
Yes, clearly rapists are only victims lashing out because they are sad that they can't fulfill society's expectations, they're not dysfunctional individuals with sketchy morals and boundary issues.
>>47689688
I'm neither, I'm just someone who bothers to care about why things are the way they are. If you're not American I'm not going to pretend to know anything about your local crime rate and culture. If you are, I'll point out that your "well I don't see anyone getting raped around here" anecdote doesn't mean it's not happening.
And yeah, it's fucked up, but that's really the way things are here. I mean, just look at the classic coming of age movie bullshit where the boy is trying to pressure the girl into having sex and she's resisting the idea. When was the last time you saw that scene reversed? It's always the boy that's the horndog and the girl that's the prude. Art is a reflection of society; that trope exists because that's how people think things are.
Also, I find it mildly humorous that you called me a virgin like it's an insult when that's exactly the kind of behavior that I'm calling out.
>>47689846
>And yeah, it's fucked up, but that's really the way things are here. I mean, just look at the classic coming of age movie bullshit where the boy is trying to pressure the girl into having sex and she's resisting the idea. When was the last time you saw that scene reversed? It's always the boy that's the horndog and the girl that's the prude. Art is a reflection of society; that trope exists because that's how people think things are.
Did you miss the slight nuance there that most of those movies have the guy pressuring the girl be the asshole, and in the end it's the nice guy who wins? Like, if you're going to claim that retarded pop culture is the villain here, at least don't cherrypick it.
>>47689846
>Also, I find it mildly humorous that you called me a virgin like it's an insult when that's exactly the kind of behavior that I'm calling out.
There's nothing wrong with being a virgin, what is wrong is being a virgin and blaming people for it like they're conspiring against you, and claiming that it's what makes people rape.
Nothing is making anyone rape, people have free will. A rapist is not a starving orphan who was forced to steal bread to survive, because his dysfunctional society does not provide for the vulnerable and bereft.
A rapist is some idiot who thought he'd get away with it, and who thinks so little of the woman he forced himself on that he'd rather rape her than just go stroke one out and calm the fuck down.
>>47689726
If it was socially acceptable to be a 20 year old virgin, you'd see a lot more 20 year old virgins. But no, I'm guessing most people will still lose their virginity around age 13 like they do now.
My main point is that we should all admit that women who have had 20+ sexual partners are still viable mates, and deemphasize sex as being anything more than a fun way to spend an afternoon. Or, you know, 10 minutes or whatever you've got.
>>47689909
Did you miss the nuance that those movies put the girl in a position where she has to be the arbiter of which guy is rewarded with sex? "Why not both?" is literally not an option for her. Neither is rejecting the hero (who's usually an asshat himself) as well, for that matter. Where's your free will now?
>>47689614
>It was one of the first quick, simple and easy ways to codify morality for young people,
The problem is that it still persists.
>>47690025
What do we replace it with?
>>47689402
Hahaha holy shit you're serious
>>47689917
>My main point is that we should all admit that women who have had 20+ sexual partners are still viable mates, and deemphasize sex as being anything more than a fun way to spend an afternoon.
If society becomes less critical of male virgins and female sluts...what, exactly, will that solve? I don't really understand your reasoning. Are the virgins going to pair up with the sluts and create a rapeless golden age of understanding between the sexes?
>>47689917
You'd see more, sure, but nothing like the numbers you're suggesting. Sex is a primal drive of living things, and men and women both seek it out.
America (and, in different ways, the UK and many other countries), though, IS totally fucked when it comes to sexuality and several of your points are dead on. This does not, however, excuse rapists in the slightest: while there are outside influences to our actions, internal choice still matter and it's a delicate balancing act to administer justice fairly when confronted with such a complicated mess.
The biggest problem with the legal system in America is that it was built to be changed by people with the will to change who failed to recognize that they were exceptional individuals. This is the huge disconnect between the Founding Fathers and, say, Libertarians or Objectivists: the Constitution, and the laws immediately produced by it, are pretty clearly designed with a particular kind of individual in mind: someone with self-possession, critical consideration and the wherewithal to act on both. Not everyone is so well equipped, for literally dozens of reasons (almost none of which have to do with sex, but many of which have to do with both genders). It is a frequent and crucial flaw in the great: to assume others are equally capable. It's right there in the constitution. The Founding Fathers thought EVERYONE was at least as intelligent as they were. It was the whole point, and has been the eternal stumbling block of the American experiment.
>>47690049
More or less, yeah. Make people realize that they're not actually enemies and you'll greatly reduce the tendency toward violence between them. Obviously rape and violence in general will always exist; the goal is to minimize situations that end in violent outcomes, not eliminate violence for all eternity.
>>47690114
>This does not, however, excuse rapists in the slightest
I never implied that it should. All I've been saying is that punishing rapists without addressing the situations that cause rape to happen doesn't prevent rape and doesn't help rape victims.
Even if you could catch and convict every single rapist in the world, it would still happen all the time because most rapists are deluded enough to think that what they're doing isn't rape.
I think it's a travesty that we allow rape to continue, instead throwing people in prison and ruining any chance for them to ever become productive members of society purely so we can make ourselves feel like we're doing something productive.
>>47688028
How did you get that from my post?
Men and women interacting is not adversarial. How the hell are you conducting your relationships?
>>47689614
>Daredevil
>Lawful Neutral
>Neutral
Ok, what?
>>47684985
>> All evil can be forgiven and redeemed.
>> All evil must be destroyed.
If I redeem evil, do I not destroy it?
>>47689480
Stealing this for a planet in my SWN campaign
>>47690835
If we go with Film Daredevil then Chaotic Stupid/Evil.
>>47689614
>Daredevil LN
Nope, Matt Murdock the attorney is LN, Matt Murdock Daredevil is NG or CG.
>>47685256
>because Chaotic alignments are restricted for those who are all about personal freedom and actively rebel against authority
Which taking justice into your own hands disregarding authority of both written laws and unwritten social norms "bcuz my own judgement iz better" is totally not, yeah
And that even assuming that statement is true (it is very arguable)
He is CN, more specifically a form of CN that is basically CD by intentions, but crosses the line with the means he uses to achieve his ends
>>47691237
>>47690835
My bad, Neutral Good. I was on a major comedown last night.
>>47689917
>deemphasize sex as being anything more than a fun way to spend an afternoon
it's a lot more than just a fun way to spend an afternoon. it's how babies are made. the fuck is wrong with you?
>>47684985
> All evil can be forgiven and redeemed.
> All evil must be destroyed.
I dont think that thats what either of those people believe, but both those views are incorrect.
>>47687087
>you cannot change a persons nature
>>47689917
>losing their virginity around age 13
Do you really think that's normal?
>>47689557
>Gygax, from his own posts, would consider Punisher LG, a righteous warrior who pitilessly slaughters the evil and those associated with them.
Based Gygax.
>>47689557
Except the punisher killed innocent people on at least two occasions, and failed to take his own life afterwards (because you don't kill the main character of a successful series).
If anything, he's a fallen paladin.
>>47685324
>You are further damaging the rights of the victims of crime
Crime victims have no rights.
Not to the criminal anyway.
They only have the right which everyone has, to have no crimes committed onto them. If it happened, they have the right to demand repayment.
The violation of another person's right to live will not undo any violation of rights that person committed.
>>47689557
>>47695393
By that retarded interpretation Gygax should have considered Hitler Lawful good, because he upheld his oath to kill the people he saw as evil, until he killed himself when all was lost.
Someone killing people you don't like does not make them good, because there are sure to be people that you have wronged in some way intentionally or not that don't like you.
Good is not about how much you help a select group of people either, good is about your efforts for the good of the entirety of all sapients. Including the criminals you killed.
This is why true Lawful good and true Chaotic good may never exist.
I instead propose this alignment system, where you pick one of the four corners or the center to dedicate yourself to, and then use "mostly one side or the other" to achieve that.
>>47695800
>>47695800
DnD morality system is intended to be used in a setting where morality is completely objective. The real world is not such a setting.
The Marvel universe, however...
>>47695907
Is also not such a setting.
Because there exists no such a setting.
I can easily conceive of a way to pit two "LG" paladins against each other. And them killing each other without either of them falling.
Also the word you're looking for is determinate/fixed.
Morality is objective, but you cannot condemn the same action in different circumstances.
>>47690811
See >>47689621. Let me know specifically which part you disagree with.
>>47694223
Sure, but contraceptives have separated the reproductive and recreational aspects of sex.
>>47694735
Sorry, phrased that poorly. 13 is the age when people turning in the V-cards in meaningful numbers. 16 is the median age, meaning half of the population starts having sex before that.
>>47695971
DnD got objective Good, Evil, Law and Chaos. They're litteral elements like Fire or Air. You've got creatures with particles of Evil in their bloodstream.
The Marvel universe has things like Lord Chaos and Master Order, I think we can say it got an objective Cosmic Order.
>I can easily conceive of a way to pit two "LG" paladins against each other. And them killing each other without either of them falling.
Yes, and?
>Also the word you're looking for is determinate/fixed.
Please explain.
>>47696261
The fact that you have particulate "evil" "good" essence doesn't mean that
a) that is necessarily related to their alignment. At least in later editions members of objectively evil races, can overcome their shortcomings.
b) or if it is, that you can judge whether someone is evil or good by their actions. And
c) in either case there is nothing to warrant saying that a murderous cunt, completely lacking some of the most important traits of good people is in any way "good"
>Yes, and?
If i can do that, that means that the alignment system is shit, because killing good people is a bad thing, and yet paladins can be cornered in a way that requires them to do this, without any malice involved. The problem point here is oaths of course.
>fixed
Morals are objective in the real world.
What you explained is that morals in a fantasy setting can be "fixed". Some things and actions can be "always, universally, all of it's type" bad.
This is however rarely the case from what i've seen, because the concept is alien to our actual reality and thus not terribly believable or immersive. Only good for very simplistic fighting games, or, as i'd imagine, earlier versions of DnD.
>>47686849
Issue number?
>>47696614
>Morals are objective in the real world.
No. The lack of concensus on it is proof of the contrary.
Transcendentals are not objective. Are you one? Are you good? Since it descends from it, morals can't be objective either.
Is the act of spitting on the face of someone good or bad?
>because killing good people is a bad thing
No. Not by itself.
Source: Fiendish codex II tyrants of the nine hells p.30.
Don't try to apply RL morals and ethics to DnD. They're not the same.
It's not a shitty system, it's just a fantasy system. Good is not RL good, Evil is not RL evil (not completely, at least).
If killing cripples was defined as Good in the books, it would be a Good thing to do.
It would be stupid from our point of view, but it would be an universal truth in that universe nonetheless.
