Why are there so few fantasy settings with physical and "active" gods lke the Olympians?
Are you talking about roleplaying game settings? Because most actually do.
>>46102690
I mean are they really? Gods far in their own little realms doing nothing in the world isn't quite non-existent, but unless they effect the world in profound ways they may as well be.
1. Ancient Greece is boring
2. Most nerds are atheists and writers don't want to alienate their potential audience.
>>46102566
I'd say the one of the bigger reasons is because it's harder to make conflict when you can call Zeus.
I've always been a fan of that type of fantasy though. Mortals sneaking into the heavens and trying to steal immortality and princes fighting demi gods in Wrestling and shit has always appealed to me.
I think personally the biggest reason is that most writers are creatively bankrupted and it's easier to write a story of some farmboy finding a magical sword and fighting a bad sauron rip off.
>>46103343
>2. Most nerds are atheists and writers don't want to alienate their potential audience.
Just because you are Atheists doesn't mean they'll turn down a story with gods.
I like settings when the gods are or were real, and either they have left, died, or you eventually get to meet and/or kill them.
>>46103343
I'm an atheist and I fucking love mythology and religious stories of all shapes and sorts. Just because I don't believe it's true doesn't mean I can't enjoy it by its merit as fiction. You don't believe the Lord of the Rings is a true story, do you?
Active deities requires different thought and behavior processes that people aren't used to. You cannot say or do what you want because the gods are always watching, and they are cruel. Claim to be more beautiful than the goddess of love and she turns you into a beetle. Try to catch a peek at the goddess of the hunt while she bathes and you get ripped apart by wild dogs. Tell a crowd of people that the gods don't real and you will be reduced to ashes by a sudden lightning strike on a clear, sunny day.
Players are arrogant and do stupid shit like this all the time. They will fuck up and then die horribly because they pissed off a divine entity.
Most of the gods in my setting are asleep. Their followers built temples around their sleeping forms and pray directly to them.
Didn't stop the players from doing something stupid and pissing them off.
>>46105481
It could be this way, but that makes the gods infallible which is always much more fun. IF the gods were once real but have "left" or disappeared, you can have your cake and eat it too.
>>46105481
I think it can be ok if your gods are not all powerful, or if their scheming against one another acts as a check against one another.
Hera might hate your guts, but she can only act indirectly because Zeus is alright with you. Hades might be obliged to do you a favor, but he's got a gentleman's agreement with Olympus not to meddle in the mortal realm.
Basically the gods are a bunch of supernaturally powerful gang bosses who have to observe some courtesy to other cartels in order to avoid a dangerous and unprofitable gang war (apocalypse).
Obviously if you mock a god openly or fuck with their universal rules, they'll make you into a bit of sport (and ruin your life). One thing they all agree on is keeping mortals in their place.
>>46103343
Your mom and your fucking ass are boring
>>46103343
>2. Most nerds are atheists and writers don't want to alienate their potential audience.
But how am I supposed to vicariously quench my atheistic thirst for deific blood if my RPG settings don't have gods I can kill? I mean, it's not like I'm allowed to attend mass anymore.
>>46108580
That's antitheism, not atheism
>>46103343
Most of the writers have no problem "alienating" a potential audience. The ahtar were a footnote compared to all the "fuck you for trying to play someone who doesn't believe in the gods" bullshit of 3.5 and you literally play god in Exalted. The OWoD threw literally all of its alternate mythologies out of the window to end with some weird mashup of gnosticism and dispensationalism.
Most fantasy settings have active pantheons. Atheists are less likely to act like fucking delicate flowers about it than some of the christian players I've had who spent every effort they could trying to turn the setting into one where the only religions that existed were christianity and maybe islam.
>>46109028
See, this post is the kind of faggotry autists will get up to when they're trying to act smart - It's unreadable. OP's question was answered by a satirical children's cartoon made years ago:
When everyone's a super, no one is.
>>46102566
the last thing you want in your game is a bunch of overpowered DMPC
>>46105565
In the same way that sitting at an old, long-abandoned fast food joint is a good way to get a burger.
>>46103343
Why would an atheist enjoy a setting where the existence of deities is up to question more than one where the answer is clear and verifiable? Atheists only hate God because there's nothing that proves He, without a doubt, undeniably exists.
If God were to ever make a public, worldwide appearance I can guarantee you there would be a lot less Atheists out there.
>>46103343
>2. Most nerds are atheists
This is blatantly false. Aetheists are a distinct minority within the "nerd community." In fact, that are a minority in almost every community, making up only about 2% of the world's population, with non-religious altogether adding up to a scant 9%.
>>46102566
75% of greek mythology is Olympians fucking people's lives.
Just try to run a game where the female paladin is mind-raped to fall in love with a giant bull, where the wizard has to act as an arbitrator between to gods with the certaincy that he's gonna be fucked by the loosing party, and where the BBEG literally puts a Deus Ex Machina and TPK everyone because he had a good patronage.
Active gods are mostly dicks. And even if they aren't on purpose, their morality is gonna be so foreign to mortals that the result will be the same.
>>46110952
To be fair there would still be those who refuse to bend the knee and consider worship contrary to liberty. Old School Anarchists basically.
>>46102566
The gods of Olymp basically quit messing with chicks and dudes before the collaps of the late bronze age, Anon.
Which was well before the Greek started to record their history.
>>46102566
I think that most people involved western fantasy think in term of judeo-christian religion, atheist or theist. I mean, you say the word "God" to an atheist and they're still going to think angels and pillars, even if they don't believe in it. I think that in order to create a setting with physical and active gods you have to think a little more and study ancient cultural values rather than going on autopilot.
>>46114323
M80, have you read Herodotus?
It's full of divine intervention, like the time Apollo animated a set of armour to fight off Persian raiders at Delphi
>>46102566
If gods can solve all of your problems it doesnt make for a very engaging story. Also Forgotten Realms
>>46112051
We are not talking about 'the world' though.
Most 'nerds' live in the West and outside of the USA atheism is extremely common among people under 30. Its so rare for me to meet a Christian my age its a noteworthy event.
>>46114892
>Deus Ex Machina is literally the end of the play where Zeus is lowered down onto the stage with a machine
I dunno man the Greeks managed to be engaged by it
>>46112051
This, so much. I'm so sick of people saying that atheists are in charge, or atheists are doing this or that. It's not atheism, it's secularism that you're getting mad about, and I'm damn glad that Martin Luther got my church to shed enough blood for thirty years that they're satisfied and not drafting me to go kill Catholics.
OT: Because when the gods get actively involved in the game, it can cause headaches. I've seen level one players get pissed when the gods don't come down and solve their problems for them, because they're gods, they fight evil, here's some evil, why are they such lazy jerks, you're railroading me GM and denying my clever solution.
>>46102566
Because there is barely any difference between that and overpowered annoying DMPCs that either take away the spotlight from the players or will exersize their godly powers on the players making the players cry about not being able to do anything about it.
>>46105481
I tried having active deities in a game once. Dumb cunt literally insulting the god to it's face with edgy atheist bullshit so she god smitten ( but I was nice about it and didn't actually kill the character )
She never showed up again. Dumb edgy atheist cunts. This was before the fedora meme too.
>>46114954
The Greeks also had a story about a NEET who built his waifu in the garage, and the goddess of love took pity on him and replaced the amphorae of olive oil with a hole in the side with a real girl.
>>46114953
>Most 'nerds' live in the West and outside of the USA atheism is extremely common among people under 30. Its so rare for me to meet a Christian my age its a noteworthy event.
Not at all. In the United States, atheists barely make up 3% of the population. Likely, you meet Christians a whopping 70% of the time, but it's just that they've left their glowing neon "I LOVE JESUS" signs at home and you can't really tell.
Even if we took the 20% "non-religious" to mean "atheist", that's still a fair minority in comparison to 70%.
So, please, don't try to define a community solely based around yourself. It's kind of gross.
>>46115168
You're misreading, anon said 'in the west and outside the USA', presumably because he's too much of a faggot to say Europe.
Even then, the number of people who identify as atheist is somewhere between 7 and 15%.
>>46115206
Oh, whoops. I misread.
But, overall in Europe, it's 76% Christian. Yes, there's places where that number is far less and others where it's even higher, but as a whole Atheism is a considerable minority (and even non-religious beliefs are a minority), and it's certainly a stretch to try and claim that "most nerds are atheists."
Perhaps a higher percentage than the general population? While that's an amusing notion, there's no real evidence for that, and scientists/scholars/geeks and so on and so forth are not really more or less likely to be religious than any other group of relatively diverse people.
>>46115168
No, as in the majority of people I know are not religious in any sense. Not everywhere is America with your absurd stigma against atheism. You also have to be dubious of such surveys, you can get 63% of people to say they are non religious and 64% to say they are Christian in the same poll depending on phrasing.
And why don't you stop accusing me of things I never did.
>>46115341
Reminder that most of the self-identified christians and muslims in western europe do not believe in god.
>>46115206
>people who identify as atheists
Honestly, I think a good part of the population doesn't know what atheist means. The fact that they don't identify as such don't mean they aren't atheists.
IIRC something like 70% of french people and 55% of german people don't believe in a god, and there are some countries in Europe that are less devout.
>>46115418
>>46115421
The problem is that huge numbers of people put 'Christian' on the census because that is what they were raised as or what they think they are supposed to be. You also have people putting 'agnostic' because of this silly stigma around atheism in some places.
In many countries the head of the household answers for their children as well on the form which inflates the numbers.
>>46102566
A better question is why are there so many settings with gods that objectively exist and actively interfere all the time.
Its much better if you do not objectively know the Gods are real, gives more interesting religious conflict if nothing else. Miracles should be rare and hard to objectively pin down, especially with magic existing.
>>46115351
I don't have a stigma against atheism. I have a stigma against unverified conjecture.
That's really all you've got right now.
>>46115421
>>46115418
>>46115459
Please, for the love of your fedoras, take a look at some actual statistics. Statistics that aren't quite so misleading as you might be hoping them to be, and even if they were still leave a fair majority as Christian.
I know you might want to be able to say "The nerd community reflects my personal views", but that's hardly the case.
>>46115509
Removing the stuff that relies on the structure of the multiverse in D&D makes it surprisingly easy to have a cleric spell list that can just be powered by raw faith (which is what 2e Ravenloft's philosopher/humanist cleric was, except they believed in the potential of humanity).
>>46115562
>le ebin fedora maymay
My ancestors were blowing up churches before atheism was respectable, asshole.
There is no nerd community, but denying that most self-identified christians in countries like France and the Netherlands don't actually believe in god, something that's actually been demonstrated time and again in numerous polls, is retarded wishful thinking on the part of the churchians.
>>46115562
Why don't you stop getting offended and realise people saying what they have experienced is not the same as trying to twist the facts.
And in what meaningful sense is the majority Christian if more than half of them do not believe in God. Theism is a requirement to be a member of a religion.
>hurr durr fedora meme
Oh you are just trolling, got it.
>>46115634
>trolling
>not baiting
I want the newfags to leave
Someday...
Someday I'll see a thread about gods in RPGs that doesn't devolve into atheists and religious folk flinging shit.probably when atheists stop spouting unsupported bullshit
>>46115671
That is some impressive double trolling you have going on there.
>>46115626
What is the reason for this whole 'cultural Christian' nonsense anyway?
Why do so many people who do not actually believe still call themselves Christian?
>>46115695
>trolling
>>46115695
Because they enjoy belonging to a community. That's basic human nature.
>>46115790
But the vast majority of 'Christians' barely attend church in this country. So they are not getting their community through that.
>>46115685
And someday idiots will stop getting offended and screaming fedora when they are confronted with the fact being an atheist is not edgy or unusual.
>>46115695
>What is the reason for this whole 'cultural Christian' nonsense anyway?
My grandfather didn't want to disappoint his mom. My grandmother's family was excommunicated repeatedly but she still went through the motions because my paternal family absolutely wanted us to be raised catholic (to the point of shoving us in catholic schools when they realized it wasn't working).
The big established churches, the ones that have had large amounts of formal and informal power, still have a lot of that even today. While fundamentalist churches might give a shit what you believe, in a lot of situations the big churches, the rcc especially, cares more about headcounts and power than about what you believe in.
Also for the bootyblasted churchfags who want to go le fedora at me, this is an observation that's older than fucking fedoras.
>>46103343
>Ancient Greece is boring
I hope you have diarrhea on your wedding day.
>>46103343
>needing to be a diest to enjoy mythology
Just like how you need to believe in huge government conspiracies involving alien civilizations and FTL travel to enjoy stargate
>>46115843
>My grandmother's family was excommunicated repeatedly
The fuck did they do that got them excommunicated that recently?
The only 'catholic' I know is my cousin who had to pretend to get into a better school.
>>46115843
>excommunicated repeatedly
Did they try to blow up the Vatican?
>>46115904
I don't know how official or how far it went but it involved an angry dean and the fact that they were organizing parties with dancing and wine.
In a cafe right in front of the parish church.
During high mass. Almost every week.
>>46115626
>>46115634
If you want to talk about getting upset, let me call you fedoras again.
You're basically grasping at straws, hoping to support what is very much an unsupportable statement. And you're doing that with a mix of cherrypicking alongside wishful thinking.
"Most nerds are atheists" is so terribly inaccurate, that anyone who would profess that sort of belief would have to come into question as to why they would even try to utter such a statement. Even the idea that the "nerd community" is composed of a majority of non-religious people is so bizarre, that it raises the question of where these numbers would come from.
Certainly not from any general census data, or really any data of any kind, since it would be next to impossible to conjure up that sort of statistic outside of comparatively small and selective divisions.
If it's all a matter of anecdotal evidence, why even argue against people who say "that's wrong"? Just go ahead and say "I believe it to be real even though I'm basing my opinion on my subjective experience" so people can ignore and dismiss you.
>>46115952
Did you just not read and repeat from your scripts? I don't care what most nerds believe in because I don't believe we're an actual community. We're just people with vaguely similar hobbies.
>>46115947
That's not excommunication, idiot. Excommunication is an incredibly severe punishment that requires the Pope himself to sign off, let along the arduous institutional steps. Being a dick to your local priest is not an offence worthy of excommunication, it's being a dick and asked to go be a dick somewhere else.
Was anybody else extremely confused by this whole 'fedora' meme the first time they encountered it? You can get called a fedora for entirely normal, uncontroversial statements like saying you realised god did not exist at the same time you stopped believing in Santa or the tooth fairy. Or that the Christian god is no more valid or real than the Greek ones.
It just feels like something invented by Americans butthurt about atheists.
>>46116113
>being this new
>>46115509
I think it comes from a will to balance cleric and wizards abilities (since archwizards have a powerlevel akin to demigods, it makes sense to have higher powers leading strength to the clerics, and it means you'll always have a bigger fish to stop your players. You could have clerics that just misunderstand magic and think it's the result of their faith, but that's a pretty severe standponit for a setting), a need for the authors to flesh out the world as much as they can, and a reliance on mythologies with omnipresent deities as a base to those settings.
Also, you get demons, and demons mean that gods are real, in most imaginaries.
>>46115562
Fist thing, I'm not an atheist. However, I'm an yuropoor, and the last three times I checked atheism was on the top of the charts in my country. Do you have any reliable source on your side ?
Second thing, as other anons already pointed it out, there is a difference between christian culture and christian religion.
>>46116447
>Do you have any reliable source on your side ?
Not that guy, but literally the only actual data brought to this shitty non-discussion is>>46114971
>>46116113
>>46116010
Why are you correcting someone who's relying on misremembered/fictitious anecdotal evidence to try and support his position in an argument?
Even if he was right on that part, he'd still be wrong.
>>46115904
Try leaving the RCC, only that almost got my mother excommunicated. Took her almost 6 years to finally get the papers.
>>46116712
meant "branded a heretic" after reading through the rest of the thread.
>English no be my language
>>46116712
>>46116730
That's also not correct. 'Branded a heretic' is a figure of speech, not an actual practise (I don't even know if it was ever historically done to mark heretics, although branding was allowed by canon law as a punishment for civil and criminal crimes) or a term for a church punishment. She did not even commit heresy if she tried to leave wholesale, that's called apostasy; a heretic is someone who is baptised and remains in the Church, but is repudiating certain tenets of the Church.
Gotta say, you guys are not painting a good picture of atheists when you don't know the basics of how the Church reacted, or even potentially could have reacted, to your ancestors turning away from the Church, but instead throw around the most inflammatory and severe punishments as if the Church was some Orwellian beast that overreacts to every slight breach of faith by one of it's billion members.
>>46117092
In what way is not knowing the particulars of catholic punishments "not painting a good picture of atheists"? It's hardly reasonable to expect me to be familiar with the particularities of a social group I was never part of, and never interacted with. It'd be like saying Christians aren't painting a good picture of themselves since most know little to nothing about Sharia.
Sorry about your thread OP.
>>46117310
If you're a person who is saying that your grandfather was excommunicated for having a party, or your grandmother was branded a heretic because she had trouble filling out paperwork, you're making yourself (and by extension the atheists you're representing in this discussion)yes you're not speaking for all atheists and never said you were blah blah, when you identify yourself as a member of a group in a discussion you become the representative of that grouplook very misinformed, and undermining your whole point.
If you can't tell the difference between 'My grandfather did something that made the parish priest not like him' and 'My grandfather did something so heinous one of the oldest, largest, richest, and most powerful institutions on the planet personally singled him out for special punishment' then it says that your opinions are likely little more than kneejerk reactionary jingoism brought on by alleged family insult, and not an actually researched and defensible position. Not that atheism is not such a position, but that you're making it look like such.
>>46105461
>I'm an atheist and I fucking love mythology and religious stories of all shapes and sorts.
This.
>>46114250
Yeah, but those are edgelords no one likes anyways. The same kind of people that gave us the fedora mee mee. Most atheists are agnostics that would willingly turn to whatever religion is correct should the proper proof show itself.
>>46117587
No gods.
No kings.
Only man.
>>46102566
Unless the PCs are those physical and active gods they wouldn't serve much purpose.
>>46117506
Excommunication doesn't always require Papal or Diocesan approval.
A senior church father can excommunicate (refuse to give communion to) members of his parish (girls were often excommunicated for known or suspected abortions and then ended after a penance), but it takes a Diocesan Bishop to excommunicate someone from a Diocese and the Pope to excommunicate from the whole RCC.
>>46117720
It requires interaction and expected "Godly" power levels make it hard with standard western mentalities.
>>46117587
>should the proper proof
That's a particularly limited understanding of the purpose of religion, which isn't surprising considering that many religious people also make a similar mistake. It follows in that sort of science vs. religion type of dichotomy that people try to erect, which is hardly the way religion works and is disastrously inaccurate in regards to the relationship between general science and theology.
Largely, no religion will ever be "proven" beyond a shadow of a doubt because they deal with matters that exist beyond the limits of testable and repeatable phenomena. Even if an avatar of Shiva started to rain down fire and destruction, that would not preclude or dismiss any other religion, nor would it negate their beliefs or teachings. All in all, the questions that theology tries to answer are so distant from material matters that the latter can at best be used as parables an inspiration, but never as something substantially definitive.
>>46117797
That's an interdict, not excommunication. You can refuse to give someone the rites without fully expelling them from the Church, though both fall under the broader label of censure and both are designed to ultimately designed to lead the person back to the Church. It's possible that the priest excommunicated the person in question in the sense that he technically has the power to do so, but exceedingly unlikely.
>>46117720
They'd serve plenty. Divine conflict is an amazingly fun thing ot have. Like what does the PCs do when they hear that the child of a god has been sent to kill them for doing something big a god didn't want? How do they plan for it?
What about when another god shows up and kills a major deity of the top religion do you convert? Try to influence and stop the spread of the new god with the priests? There is heaping tons of stories one could run.
