mtg should do this with reserved list cards

>>45663663
Why would it not be smart?
cards are a game, not actions for speculators

>>45663681
That is pretty much what is happening
Most of the card in there are the staplest of staples or pure cardboard powercreep

>>45663681
That is what they are doing with Legacy staples.

>>45663663
This isn't anything new. Yugioh routinely reprints tournament staples.

Also, contrary to many people's expectations, Yugioh outsells Magic. This might be because of it having a larger worldwide market, but it's also just the fact that people can actually buy their cards from Konami instead of having to deal with a secondary market that drives those sales.

>>45663663
>So konami just annihilated the secondary Yugioh market

Good, vendors were annoying as fuck anyway. I hope they're miserable right now.

>>45664824
YuGiOh outselling magic is partly because of reprints like this. When magic does have a reprint set they always sell extremely well(atleast MM1 and MM2 did) but magic limits them because they are so deep in bed with the secondary market. YuGiOh Secondary Market isn't anywhere near to as insane as Magics.

>>45665485
why should they be so deep in bed with the secondary market? what benefit is there in that for them rather than selling constant packs of reprints?

>>45665627
I think it has partly to do with all the events that take place around the world. Most of the big promoters are in some way connected to one of the big secondary sellers if not sellers themselves.

It also has partly to do with your average game stores across the world who all have up to tens of thousands of dollars in cards that they bought and if all of those were to drop in price by 80% they would close down.

>>45665795

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

>>45664824
>Yugioh outsells Magic.
really, where can you find data like that?

>>45665795
Is it bad that the phrase "tens of thousands of dollars in cards" makes me sigh? it's just so bad these things have such a high monetary value.

>>45665884
Guiness world record book.

>>45665902
Putting the collectible in TCG

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>>45668401

>putting the collectible in trading card game

>>45665795
>>45665902
Why is M:tg so pervasive in shops? It's become a staple in even in purely comic book shops that don't host events or even have tables setup. I think the secondary market is important and I think WotC is aware of it and probably even encourages it a little.

Having a strong value on rare cards creates a sense of "collectible item" fever. Part of the reason people buy booster boxes is too bypass the higher prices of the secondary market, which is a direct income to WotC. But thats kind of a given.

That secondary market is the reason every store has Magic in stock. Having a stable secondary market allows stores to generate more income than they would by just selling boosters. Because of this stores will promote Magic more, they host events and tournaments that cater to that crowd because of their ability to sell individual cards. Most of the thriving stores I have been too also have knowledge of current meta and can even suggest cards. This strong secondary market creates new players for Magic and creates more market penetration(teehee) for WotC.

Konami really is the underdog in that sense, they can't compete with WotC using the same strategy. So they make the players happy, they generate more sales by reprinting rares than they otherwise would by creating new cards. It's also a low cost, low impact descision. There is no chance of creating OP scenarios as the cards have already been tested, and no additional cost in R&D and artwork.

>>45663681
They are, unfortunately, unable to do that for legal reasons.
Do you think they WANT to not be able to print those things?
Or hell, to not be able to print a 2/2 flying first strike for 1WW? Because the Reserved List has Thunder Spirit on it, and that keeps them from printing any kind of 2/2 Flying/First Strike for 1WW ever

>>45669073

There is literally no legal reason they can't. They CAN literally reprint any card on the reserved list any time they want. The only thing stopping them is some ridiculous notion that because they made a promise which they they failed to grasp the full consequences of at the time, that they should keep said promise.

>>45669169
It was fucking 20 years ago, most of those people aren't even around anymore.

>>45669279

You'd be surprised. Believe it or not, they have "broken" the reserved list before when they did the phyrexia vs the coalition duel decks. Autists came out of the woodwork to whine about it.

>>45665485
Some things do get high. Cards can peak at around $200

But said 200 bucks card is getting reprinted in this set.

>>45663681
There's a reason MTG is carried over YuGiOh. No store owner wants to deal with that shit.

>>45668778

All of the above, plus the secondary market creates a huge amount of hype because they contribute professionally written articles, funding for pros etc. It does a lot of work for Wizards with Wizards losing very little in the process.

Here are a couple of comparisons for what the cards used to cost, and what they're going to cost after.

Number 106: Giant Hand. Old: $500. Expected: $10
Black Rose Dragon Old: $3. Expected: $1
Digvorzhak, King of Heavy Industry Old: $300. Expected: $10

Maxx "C" $15->$10
Constellar Pleiades $1->$0.1
Shared Ride $4 -> $0.2
Grand Horn of Heaven $0.1 -> $0.1
Treacherous Trap Hole $5->$1
Galaxy Cyclone $12->$5
Archfiend Eccentrick $20->$5
Ghost Ogre & Snow Rabbit Was $70 dollars, price has plummeted to about 20 and is set to keep going down.
Daigusto Emeral $35->$5
Dark Destroyer $150->$10

Collectors ruin everything they put their hands on. Toys, comics, books, records.

>>45668778

>Why is M:tg so pervasive in shops?

Because booster drafts are a popular way of playing a game that easily moves product. Usually netting a store around $15 per entrant with at least eight players required.

That's on top of people who just buy packs and those who buy boxes because a set has a sizable number of good cards.

I don't really think secondary sales contribute a lot to a FLGS' income in comparison to the actual product since there are tons of secondary sites out there, some who likely have better prices than a FLGS does.

>>45663663

Wouldn't "infinite gold" make it have no value whatsoever?

For the first time in a long time I'm pretty jelly of YGO. I wish they would do this with MtG. Fuck the collectors. Fuck the reserve list.

>>45674605
>Have no value whatsoever
Well, it DOES describe the cards.

>>45663663
Probably an unpopular opinion in this thread, but decisions like this normally spell the end to cardgames. Yugioh has always had pushed decks and significant banlists, and at least used to have a habit of following a cycle of print -> hype -> ban -> reprint everything left to the point where it's worth pennies, which isn't good for the health or longevity of a game.

In the ancient games of TCGs before Magic came along, publishers would print things for as long as it was profitable, then when sales started to decline, they would reprint literally everything with value to make a huge last surge of cash off their playerbase and quit. Magic's reserved list, which is a pretty flawed idea in execution and not all that great in concept, was a way to assure people that no, your cards won't lose all value in a few years, and that's good for a game.

>>45674809
You've read the mood wrong. Since interest in the game is set to rise with the release of the new movie (Which sold out in Japan quicker than Dragon Ball Z), Konami is pushing towards a much cheaper game so that more people can play.

Rather than a killing blow, it's intended to breath life into the game again by capturing new players.

>>45674809

>your cards won't lose all value in a few years, and that's good for a game.

This

When you do stuff like this all it does is piss off the people who paid money to directly purchase the cards from the secondary market because it tanks any resale value they might have.

>>45675020
>all it does
Wouldn't it also make people who wanted to get into the game but saw the cost of cards as too high get excited for cheaper good cards?

>>45675164

It might, until they're forced to pay out the nose for certain cards to be competitive and then some time later those same cards are reprinted to be easily available and the value of the originals tanks as a result. Konami has been doing this for years.

In contrast if Wizards reprints a card they almost always keep it the same rarity it was, meaning that at most the value of a card may go down a bit. Doesn't hurt that when they're usually reprinting big expensive cards that such products have a limited stock or short print runs.

>>45674809
I don't understand. Yu gi oh stills sells a lot,and people nowadays don't even watch the anime anymore. then why haven't yu gi oh died?

>>45675361
>Konami has been doing this for years.
And they still seem to be doing well, one anon even said they still sell more cards than MTG.

>>45669073
A promise given to the mtg community at large that has no legally binding contract attached to it holds no legal power overy the actions wizards of the coast may or may not decide to take.

>>45675497
In usa, yes.
Fuck 'MURICA
get your staples from your favorite based chinamen now if you want to play competitive

>>45675389
I don't know about that. Where i live the yugioh player base seems to watch the anime.
The anime is no longer on tv and the cards aren't sold in regular toy stores anymore by the way

>>45675394

I doubt it has been anytime soon, even Pokemon once outsold MTG for a while.

>>45675020
>When you do stuff like this all it does is piss off the people who paid money to directly purchase the cards from the secondary market because it tanks any resale value they might have.
So, autists?

>>45675521
You mean those clearly fake prints that look like shit unless I double sleeve them and pay an artist to extend the art? No thanks.

>>45674809
I dunno man, wouldn't the company (Konami, Wizards, Who ever) make more money and encourage growth if they reprint cards? Getting more people into it and making more money, but pissing off all of 5 people seems like a nice trade-off.

>>45675020
What your telling everyone is that when you put money in printed cardboard, you should expect your value to stay, even though it's a game first and a collector's hobby second, thus fucking over the people who play the game because you have money invested in duals.

>>45675611
The people who lose when massive reprints occur are the secondary traders who try to stifle a game's audience for profits.

The secondary market in Magic and most other TCGs are scum. Glad they're getting shafted.

>>45675020
So people shouldn't be able to play the game because you and a bunch of wall-street wannabes decided to invest in a bunch of cards?

It's a Trading card GAME.

Honestly, it's kind of pathetic that Magic, the game which prides itself on being "unf so gud competitively" doesn't reprint the kinds of cards which allow deckbuilding creativity to thrive and let more people and potential competitors compete.

>>45674809
Apparently Yugioh reprints cards like this every year for a while now. Don't think that's a sign of death for the game.

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Gold_Series_(series)

Someone correct me if I'm mistaken though.

>>45675575

No, people who play your game and conceivably keep secondary market sellers in business which means you sell more product.

Not every competitive player is going to draft or buy a box, if they want a playset of a certain card they're just going to go out and buy that playset. However if they feel like what their buying isn't worth it then they may just stop playing all together or switch to a method of playing which means they're buying significantly less from secondary marketers who in turn are going to buy less product because demand has dropped.

Cards are cardboard and paper, the idea that they can either be traded for another card or cards of similar value or sold and some money recouped is the only thing that keeps competitive players buying from the secondary market.

>>45675627

The collector argument only applies to cards which are merely valuable because they're and gamewise are useless and I'm not exactly sure how many people give a shit about those.

On the other hand those who buy the most expensive cards and would be among those who suffer most from their loss in value bought those cards because they wanted to play with them.

>>45675647

It's not about investment, it's about trust and not getting burned. About a company going a bit out of their way to not treat their customers like shit.

I'm tempted to say if you can't understand why some people would be upset that the cards they payed money experienced a sudden drop in value then you've likely never bought from a secondary retailer and get all your cards directly from packs and other such products.

I guess I really should note that I'm talking about Magic her and not Yugioh, in which case none of the cards on the reserved list are required to play any format besides Vintage and Legacy. I'm also not saying all reprints are bad, just the ones on the level Konami does where they suddenly make expensive cards easily and widely obtainable.

>>45675772
>I'm tempted to say if you can't understand why some people would be upset that the cards they payed money experienced a sudden drop in value then you've likely never bought from a secondary retailer and get all your cards directly from packs and other such products.

So expensive cards should say expensive with no regards to the players? If a format changes so that card X becomes really strong, and card X costs $150 and you need a playset, the card shouldn't be reprinted to avoid annoying the people who spend all that money? They should be allowed to dominate the game uncontested for the foreseeable future?

People who aren't manchildren recognize that in a game with a shifting meta, you've got to be prepared that the card you DID buy might lose value later. However, if you DO buy it now, then there's a good chunk of time where you've got an advantage, albeit one that doesn't last forever.

People who bought Ghost Ogres for the pendulum format realized that she WAS going to get reprinted sooner or later. Every single one. They just rationalized that it was worth the edge in the 5-6 major tournaments they'd have before the reprint came.

>>45675772
>cards on the reserved list are required to play any format besides Vintage and Legacy
>cards on the reserved list are required to play any format besides the two that are dying due to an obscenely high barrier to entry
I would LOVE to play Vintage or Legacy.
But I don't make the kind of money where I can afford to be dropping a hundred bucks or more on a single card.

>>45675856

>So expensive cards should say expensive with no regards to the players? If a format changes so that card X becomes really strong, and card X costs $150 and you need a playset, the card shouldn't be reprinted to avoid annoying the people who spend all that money?

Go ahead and reprint it, but don't take a card that was rare and suddenly make it a common in a set that has multiple print runs.

Again, specifically talking about Magic. Yugioh is the way it is now because Konami never gave two damns in the beginning about anything but selling packs and as a result made tons of cards which were effectively useless gamewise and good only for collecting. They took the best cards and slapped the highest rarities on them in a further bid to sell more packs.

Yugioh to my knowledge also only has two formats whose only difference is that you can't use some cards in which case Konami has to reprint the best stuff if it's from a set that went out of print a decade ago.

>>45675934

I haven't looked at Vintage or Legacy in years, but from what I recall tournaments did usually allow a certain number of cards to be proxied.

Wouldn't expect Wizards to really give a shit about trying to actively promote those formats because what you need to buy to keep up is a lot less than newer formats, that is how it used to be at least.

>>45675647
>>45675772
>>45675856
>>45675958
The tl;dr is strong in this thread.

>>45669073
>>45669169
>>45669829
the autists that whine about the reserved list loophole aren't the ones wizards worried about. They have no rights under the agreement.

The reason they can't reprint from the reserved list (and why they closed the loopholes the autists whined about) is any big secondary market company can bring a suit of promissory estoppal and have the courts issue a C&D to wizards.
There wasn't a contract, but since people invested money in the not-contract and would lose shitloads of money, the courts enforce it as if it WAS a legally binding contract. This is a Common Law statute that dates back to the 11th century if not earlier.

There is a chance that if any vendors go under (or take heavy losses) they'll try suing KoA for damage. Which has precedent in their favor.

>>45675958
Wizards very recently got pushed around by hasbro after a store streamed a proxy vintage tournament. Now any shop that allows proxies of any kind loses WPN privileges (making it illegal for them to run ANY tournaments or sell ANY product) and any judge who sees a shop allow this has to report it, or face DCI suspensions.

hasbro went full retard and it's really fucking over a lot of people.

>>45676362
[Citation needed]

>>45676477
For which part?

>>45676444

Ah, guess they're concerned about a possibly third market dealing in proxies. I've seen such things for the Power 9 years ago.

>>45676512
The part where the secondary market can sue wizards for something not legally binding

>>45676640
They CANNOT sue. They CAN order wizards stop producing and destroy the RL reprints, because they would lose money invested BASED ON the promise to not reprint.
This is a textbook case of promissory estoppal. As in, my business law professor uses it as his example case for this concept.

>>45674809
Magic was the first TCG so....

I still dont get about the reserved list. Is it just a promise or its based on legal actions from the collectors? How the hell can i be sued if I decide to print MY OWN PRODUCT?

>>45677020
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/promissory+estoppel

>>45677113
this is so fucking retarded desu

>>45677256
Welcome to 'murica

>>45674809
>Good cards shouldn't be made easily accessible because then some whiny faggots that spent $450 on a playset of Brionac will kick themselves for spending that much when they could've waited for a few weeks and instead spent $60 at worst, $15 at best.

I am almost positive that this is not what you were shooting for, but this is what your argument sounds like.

Anybody willing to spend more than $5 on any one piece of cardboard deserves everything they get. Honestly, $5 is pushing it.

>>45677611
This. man. knows

>considering an ongoing TCG an 'investment'
>spending hundreds of dollars on this 'investment'
>get butt-mad when this 'investment' doesn't pan out

Holy fucking shit. Seriously. Let the secondary market stew in their own shit for making such a terrible economic choice. Seeing as Konami doesn't have a 'reserved' list (could be wrong, only did a basic google check), putting so much money into printed cardboard on blind faith is completely idiotic.

The card is only as valuable as the rules allow it to be (often in relation to other cards). This means that unlike the vast majority of other /tg/-collectibles that have other qualities to buy/sell for (comics, CCGs, miniatures, etc), a TCG card is hardly more than cheap kindling if it isn't relevant to its game.

>>45679368
Konami does not have a Reserved List. The list of Forbidden/Limited cards will affect the cards that get reprints (Banned cards will rarely, if ever, see reprints outside of nostalgia sets), as will the state of the current anime (current anime cards will usually get printing priority over most things except cards from older series). In most cases, main packs will contain almost entirely newer cards, while most secondary packs (including the one in the OP) will contain mostly reprints of stuff that has either been in demand or shit that Konami thinks will mesh decently with the new stuff in the pack (if the product is meant to push forth new product alongside the old).

The shit OP and a few others are complaining about happens literally every year, and has for the past half-decade at least. Premium Gold itself is still relatively new, but the practice isn't.

We've gone through 3 eras of gameplay doing this shit and we're still not dead. The argument that THIS TIME IT WILL DOOM US ALL is pessemistic at best and Y2K-tier nonsense at worst.

>>45677256
>>45677271
>implying this is an American concept
>implying this isn't from before shakespeare
>implying this isn't almost as old as the magna fucking carta

>>45676362
>would lose shitloads of money
this is retarded, and I'm amazed so many retards keep repeating that tired meme
do all of these fuckers regurgitating what they read on reddit not realize that Wizards' contract is for the product that THEY created, i.e. the fucking original sale of the cards? They made a promise they'd not reprint them to retain THAT value, not the secondary market's value 20 years down the road.

>>45676897
Huh. I could have sworn Illuminati and a few others predated it by a bit.

Neat, I might get into YGO. Magic is retarded. Legacy is an amazing format, but its reprint policy is monstrously retarded. I'd rather just play fucking Go or Chess if I want anything strategic, and Twilight Struggle or any LCG if I want nerd memes.
Paying big money for Magic makes you a moron who's too afraid of getting out of his comfort zone.

>>45673227
except YGO literally has better sales than Magic, and has had better sales for the past decade

>>45677611
Yeah, what I was kinda shooting for was the idea that if you bought a deck for say $500 and then tried to resell it later, you shouldn't walk away with $50.

Wait, that's still a bit high, and I guess it still doesn't carry a point that well.

Um, well, maybe the metric that a reprinting shouldn't cost a card much more than half its value? If something was at $100, and its reprint drops it to $5, it was probably over-reprinted, but if it dropped it to $60 and then was reprinted again and dropped to $20, fewer people would have the kicking-themselves moment.

>>45681353
I agree with you in a way, but the opposite version of your stance. I think that cards shouldn't get to the point where you're spending $500 on a deck to begin with. The pain of selling a $50 for $5 is much less than the pain of selling a $500 deck for $50.

Which brings me back to my original point: If you are dumb/greedy/whatever enough to support the business practice of printing cards so rare that you have to spend $450 on THREE pieces of cardboard, you deserve absolutely everything you get.

I am all for aggressive reprints.

To me, it's like being an early adopter for a new game console or similar piece of technology. You pay the premium for being the first to own a new Playstation/OLED TV/Blu-Ray player, but then that shit gets mass produced and cheaper, and then everyone and their grandma can afford it.

Anone who "invests" in children's card games SHOULD expect the value of those cards to drop as the cards continue to get produced and sold. You don't hear tech enthusiasts demanding that Sony stop making TVs because of "muh value!"

>>45681775
I fell tempted to second that.
But I really like the store I play, and it has everything, cards, accessories, food and drinks. I really like that space, and if the price drop would ruin their profits,therefore making them unable to keep it. I rather only play with my budget deck, and don't win as often.
Otherwise, yeah, fuck this retarded market.

>>45683676
Reprints are good for FLGS
Consider the pack in the OP.

That FLGS is going to get a fucking ton of business since it's now in the interest of players to pick up a bunch of PGL3 for the reprints.

>>45676727
Show me where wizards directly promised that the reserve list was in the interest of the secondary market, then maybe I can agree.

>>45683676
>>45684298
Stores the sell magic cards as singles tends to do so at a loss. There are a few exceptions, but with most cards losing value rather rapidly and the effort involved in maintaining a collection and tracking prices makes it hardly worth the pennies people might pay for some cards. This leads to most stores that bother with singles only dealing with rares and mythics, but even those only do so in the hopes of attracting customers to their store, rather than churning a profit from the sales themselves.

Reprints would help small businesses and shops, because they make their money off of sealed product, not singles. The only people that reprints hurt are large companies like StarCityGames and card speculators.