What is /tg/s opinion on PSIONICS? Does it have its place in fantasy role playing or is it too X-men for D&D and Pathfinder?
Psionics lets you break into Gensokyo from the outside world.
I like them in fantasy, I honestly prefer them to your standard wizards, sorcerers, and battle mages.
Also, in D&D and Pathfinder it's much better balanced and more fun to play with than standard vancian casting.
>Does it have its place in fantasy role playing or is it too X-men for D&D and Pathfinder?
If your setting has Monks using Ki, your setting can handle Psionics.
It's mechanically solid, better valanced than official material ( in PF ).
They just use sort of terminology that sorta kills fantasy-feel of it. The sort you would see in scifi.
And of course I am talking about DSP's stuff. It's not a psion unless it breathes power points.
>>44582213
Psionics would be great if the enchantment school of magic didn't exist
>>44582213
They are usually better done than the casters so I love them
>>44582480
>better balanced than official material ( in PF ).
They're also better balanced in 3.5
>>44582615
Well, duh. PF Psionics are pretty much a port of 3.5 Psionics.
Aegis is the most awesome thing since sliced bread
>>44582213
They're an integral part of Eberron, so I love them. I can see why people wouldn't, though. They can feel a bit odd in some settings that are more blatantly Tolkienesqe, i.e. Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance.
>>44582849
Aegis is the only thing good that came out of PF and isn't even Paizo's, well, that and path of war, but technically is just reskined ToB
>>44583148
What really is the difference between psionics and regular magic? Both pretty much warp reality with nothing but thoughts. The wizard just makes a funny hand gesture before hurtling boulders or mind controlling you
>>44584409
Yeah, there are tons of spells that replicate psionic powers - Fear, Charm, Illusion, Telekinetic-like spells, ESP-like spells (Detect x). Psionics may work better as seperate powers in a sci-fi or horror game where "magic" isn't acceptable.
>>44584409
The mechanics are different, and psions are a bit more limited in what any single one can do. They're more like sorcerers Than wizards.
Personally I love the 3.5 psychic warrior. Definitely better than weeaboo Fightin magic, fluff wise.
>>44582213
I don't like it to be honest.
Somehow "I CAN MOVE THINGS WITH MY MIND!" doesn't blend too well into medieval fantasy.
Besides, there's no need to have two types of magic that are fundamentally different but do the same things.
>>44583158
There's a lot of difference between PoW and ToB. For starters, Path of War has actual dedicated ranged support.
>>44584530
*coug* divineandarcanemagics *cough*
>>44584811
They don't do the same things most of the time.
>>44584884
And yet they're riddled with spells, class features, archetypes and ACFs that allow them to poach from each other's lists. There's far more overlap between arcane and divine magic than there is between psionics and either of the other two.
I'm wondering if Paizo made that Occult book to put a dent in DSPs sale of thier Psionics book?
>>44584884
Magic users are all moving things with their mind. There's a hair thin line between the fluff of all of them, and the magic itself does the same thing, because magic can always do everything without any real restriction.
>>44584530
>>44584884
They don't do the EXACT same thing. And there is some overlap. And even with that overlap, some classes of Magic to something things better than others.
A Psion can't raise the dead or summon demons or shit out clones of himself, as an example.
Seriously saying "but they can both move boulders, they're the same!" is idiotic on so many levels and shows nothing but an utter lack of creativity. It's like saying Paladins shouldn't exist because Clerics do.
>>44584409
>Both pretty much warp reality with nothing but thoughts.
Depends on how they get to that point. For psions, that is after self-reflection, meditation, examining memories, and learning more about themselves than they want to know. Psychic warriors and 4e monks develop and train their body and mind to unlock psychic powers. Wilders, ardents, and battleminds channel power through their emotions and passion.
Wizards, sorcerers, and other spellcasters learn the funny hand gestures, weird words, and pocket lint that allow them to warp reality. Wizards and similar kinds study the theory and body of knowledge behind magic to better understand how to cast spells. Sorcerers and similar spellcasters just know what words, gestures, etc. to use to cast spells. Divine spellcasters get their warped reality through their deity or belief.
Both psionics and regular magic require concentration. Psionics need intense training or the right burst of emotions while magic needs other componenets in addition to concentration.
>>44585421
Except they're not.
A Wizard isn't using his mind. He's using the power of the universe to do shit. He learns prepackaged spells from a book to mimic the effects of various supernatural entities.
It's like using a crane to lift a boulder and lifting the bolder yourself.
>>44585462
Like I said, hair thin line between the fluff. Is self reflection suddenly something impossible in generic medieval fantasy?
>>44585506
No, but isn't that an argument in favor of Psionics being in a fantasy setting then?
Seriously, it's basically like being a monk, but you don't suck.
And it's really not that thin. They have different mechanics, rules, and functions. I've seen Parties with both Wizards and Psions. Int based full-casters, and they were almost nothing a like in form and function.
>>44585506
The fluff justification for different types of magic depends on how thick you want the line to be. In 3e, the fluff for truenamers and truespeech can be applied to archivists while binders and pact magic would an alternative set of domains for charisma-focused clerics. Alternative magic systems are a different set of mechanics for getting the same or similar results in most cases with fluff serving as an in-game reason why the new system is separate.
Just because psions use self-reflection (and other mental techniques) to get power doesn't mean that those techniques are off limits for sorcerers and other mages in generic medieval fantasy. It just that D&D spellcasters have their own fluff of how they get to the point of being able to cast spells while other D&D supernatural classes have similar fluff that is different enough to be interesting and not feel like wizard 1.1.
>>44585108
Probably, but paizo's psionics suck man ass
>>44586700
That's because it isn't psionics, it's "psychic magic." It's exactly the fucking same as regular magic except it doesn't have ASF and if you scared you can't use it.Except you totally can because why on earth would a wizard never be able to cast spells?
God fucking damn you fucking newfags.
None of you are aware that Psionics is literally the oldest form of 'magic' in modern fiction?
>>44582213
I like Pathfinder's style of psychic phenomenon being spooky gypsy shit. It fits into a fantasy world really well too the point were it might even fit better than regular arcane and divine magic.
>>44582213
Psions are possibly my favorite class in 3.5 hoping the 5th ed ones are just as good :D
>>44585108
Regardless of intent, that's what happened. We're doing the best we can about it.Hi, Jade Ripley, Dreamscarred Press. Just stopping in to say hello and let'cha know that we're available to answer questions if you like.
>>44585505
now explain sorcerers
The setting needs to be built around them.
Dark Sun has psionics as readily available and as a replacement for magic. Eberron has them extensively practiced on the continent of Sarlona and tied heavily to the Plane of Dreams.
Don't just throw them into your generic fantasy kitchen sink setting or they'll clash like nobody's business.
>>44589191
Honestly I've never felt like psionics fit thematically in dark sun, more just as a mechanical replacement for casters in a world with no divine magic/hates arcane magic
I'm trying to fit psionics into what seems to be PF's default setting, and it's taking quite a bit of effort. I got all but the noral pinned down. Ain't got around to classes yet....
>>44582213
you mean 'MIND MAGIC'?
Yeah sure, who'd have a problem with that?
>>44586700
At least some of the classes are cool and feel like their own thing.
That occultist, that one I actually really like on it's own merits, even though it's probably clunky as fuck in play.
>>44589191
What's the point of a kitchen sink setting if you can't?
>>44589058
Are you guys going to make your own system? At this point I'd rather buy a PHB of your own making rather then give Paizo any money for their garbage
>>44589868
Welllll.....aaaaabout that.Yes, but it's not related to Pathfinder and will be an RPG of its own, without reference to D&D's heritage except possibly in cases like dice, some system terminology, etc. I can't really explain more so don't ask; even if I could, it'd be hilariously off-topic for thread.
>>44589845
This!
Although there's really no accounting for the fickle amongst us.
My oldest, dearest friend once refused to play eberron because he thought dinosaurs still being alive was the dumbest shit.
>>44590117
Hey.
Apropos of nothing...
Thank you, and all your crew, for everything you're doing.
>>44590217
But... but... dinosaurs are alive in literally every D&D setting!
>>44590117
That's fine, I appreciate the work you guys put into your stuff, As long as it has some kind of psionics in it (not a big requirement I just like it) and it continues to be as good as the stuff you have put out I'll count myself as a customer.
I love psionics, but the people I play with hate it. They think that it's "too sci-fi", apparently if it's not ripping off Tolkien it's not fantasy.
>>44590444
Did you see the Occult stuff they're doing? More new stuff, I guess.
>>44590480
That's pretty dumb on their part. D&D has always had psionics, all the way back to 1e.
>>44590117
Is there a rough ball park estimate of when this will be available? I'd love to play a system you guys come up with.
>>44585108
Hi, I'm also with DSP. I'm not going to comment on this speculation, but I am working on the Psionics Augmented: Occult product. So I have a bit of perspective on psionic vs. psychic, as these terms have come to be used in Pathfinder.
First, the distinction between psionics and magic in general, and this goes way back, prior to DSP or Paizo touching it, is that psionics is internal and magic is external.
Psionics is mental training, mind over matter, that kind of thing. "I reject your reality and substitute my own." Literally effecting change by sheer force of will.
Arcane magic (ab)uses the rules of the universe, manipulating some cosmic "API" to use programmer jargon for spells. Divine magic gets spells as little presents from gods and faith.
To this we add psychic magic, which is about connections, history, and relationships. The term 'psychic' is almost a misnomer, used more in the tarot-or-palm-reading, crystal-ball-gazing, seance-holding sense, than in the mental power sense. Considering the naming of the book series, I would have liked to see the magic called 'occult magic' instead, but that ship has sailed.
All three of these are different from psionics because psionics is innate, and they are not.
So ultimately, psychic magic and psionics don't have THAT MUCH similarity to one another on a fluff level. There does seem to be room for all four. The naming is unfortunate and frustrating, but c'est la vie.
I rarely see more redefining of terms and goal post moving then when I watch someone argue against psionics in D&D.
>>44589114
The sorcerer, through bloodline in most cases, learns prepackaged spells from instinct to mimic the effects of various supernatural entities.
Wizards learn the workings behind the spell to know which gestures, incantations, etc. are used to cast it. Sorcerers know the gestures, incantations, etc. but normally lack a complete understanding of the spell. So for a sorcerer with little to no training in academic knowledge of arcane spells, spellcasting is something of a black box.
>tfw my group absolutely refuses to use psionics mostly because of DSP's Path of War stuff which convinced them that everything they do is overpowered
>>44590867
That suckseven if PoW 1 is overpowered.
>>44590914
Well, I heard that PoW:E gonna nerf some of the worst offenders, such as Broken Blade.
>>44590982
PoW E is a second book, and generally lower powered in numbers than PoW 1. They're errataing PoW 1 later.
For a time we had a guy in our group who only ever used psionics. I allowed it when I GM'd for him and he would always completely optimize his characters. He was a bit of a cunt, especially towards me and a couple others but we let him stay because he knew his shit about Pathfinder. Eventually he left a session without saying a word, quit the Roll20 campaign, removed us all on every media without saying a word. Kinda glad he's gone though. A shame he ruined psionics for my group.
How is Path of War overpowered? The classes are still much weaker than Paizo's full casters, they just aren't total shit like Paizo's noncasters.
>>44591250
Because they make many of Paizo's martial classes obsolete.
>>44591286
Paizo's martial classes were already obsolete though. Experienced players know they're shit and won't touch them.
>>44582849
>party gestalt paladin/sorcerer dies
>mind but not soul gets placed in a warforged body
>rerolls, doesn't have the stats for pally/sorc, builds an aegis//psionic artificer
>he's still learning to use his stack of powers correctly. But I'm very frightened
>>44591354
This. Paizo's developers are openly contemptuous of martials, I suspect they spent a lot of time shoved into lockers as kids because they're absolutely opposed to jocks having nice things ever
>>44591127
Figured I'd bump the thread with this. How would I convince my group they aren't that OP even after that shithead is gone?
>>44592209
Explain your position to them and ask them to give you a chance, and you'll switch to something else if they think you're breaking the game. If they're reasonable people they should be okay with this. If not, play an Arcanist to show them how balanced Paizo's shit isn't.
>>44590264
Dinosaurs are alive in the real world.
Psionics and mesmerism have a prominent place in the Pulps that inspired D&D. They're a more legitimate component of the game than divine magic.
>>44590480
Weren't Tolkien elves literally telepathic, though?
>>44592525
I would be fine with the distinction of divine magic if it wasn't packaged as just Arcane with a religious bent to it.
I mean, if the gods are giving you spells to use why arn't they tailored to the particular gods liking or themed more to their domains? Why are you picking and choosing spells instead of being thankful for the ones your god gave to you and why are they carbon copy replicas of wizard spells
>muh versitility
If god told you to sculpt a statue of his likeness with a spoon and it gives you a spoon then damnit you use that spoon like there's no tomorrow. To bad D&D can't do this.
>>44590480
>>44592525
Gygax thought that Tolkien-style fantasy clashed horribly with the tone of D&D, and only included things like halflings because his players were massive LotR fanboys who wouldn't stop whining about it.
>>44582213
But "psionics" is what D&D calls magic. For some reason D&D uses the term "magic" to refer to a system drawn from the sci-fi novels of Jack Vance, where you study advanced scientific knowledge from ancient civilisations that erases itself from its mind when called upon.
>>44593092
IIRC the intention in AD&D was for gods to give specific spheres of magic related to what those gods were about, but people misinterpreted the rules and we ended up with do-anything clerics.
>>44582213
I think either it or magic should be the by far dominate force -- to the point where there is no real development of the weaker one. It just doesn't feel right to have both having fully developed disciplines at the same time and place. It feels more like whichever was dominate would be where cultures would focus their attention and ignore the other one.
That said, from 3rd on, regular classes are already really x-menish.
>>44593646
Makes sense. From my understanding a lot of the more powerful spells weren't even suppose to be meant for options you can just get because whatever and that some of them were suppose to be specific to a campaign because of how powerful they were.
But then along comes 3/3.5 and they are standard options for magic casters.
>>44593695
>Having two ways of using magic doesn't make sense
>I'll just stick to wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, bards, paladins, rangers and a bunch of splatbook classes
>>44593695
That's like saying there shouldn't be any martial classes.
Actually, you might be on to something.
>>44593807
Wow!, it's like I didn't say anything like that. Awesome.
>>44593843
>no martial classes
Not necessarily, that would depend on the fluff of the setting. I just don't see there being a fully developed psionics system at the same time as acrane and divine casters. The aims and skills are too similar. I think one who would be attracted to one would be attracted to the other and do well at it. Through time, I believe that this would result in the almost entire dominance of arcane over psionics or psionics over arcane casting.
>>44593994
>Through time, I believe that this would result in the almost entire dominance of arcane over psionics or psionics over arcane casting.
I think that that would be interesting fodder for campaigns to explore, and think you using it as an excuse to eliminate different ways of doing different things is shortsighted.
>>44593994
You literally make them sound distinct and interesting while trying to say they aren't.
>>44593994
You know in old Kung Fu movies where you have two competiting clans with their own distinct martial arts where, for whatever reason, they are feuding with each other and one seeks to destroy the other?
Both of them are martial arts and, for the most part, there is only so many ways you can kick and punch people but they are both practiced and may not be on good terms with one another.
So just because you could will forces with your mind to pick up a rock or have a handy dandy levitation spell and cast it on the rock, why is it that they both can't exist?
>>44594112
>You literally make them sound distinct and interesting while trying to say they aren't.
Huh? I'm not claiming that they're not distinct and interesting, what I'm saying is I don't like hte idea that both would be ascendent at the same time. If you like that, awesome, good for you. I don't.
>>44594064
>eliminate
Never really said anything about eliminating. There's a difference between having billion year old tradition and great honkin schools devoted to learning something and it not really being developed.
>>44582213
>D&D
Psionics is literally magic, every explanation for why it isn't is retarded.
Thrallherd is still best class.
>>44585462
>Wilders, ardents, and battleminds channel power through their emotions and passion.
So they're sorcerors.
