Let's say for sake of argument you are trapped in another dimension with very rare and unreliable access to tools and new materials- you and the other people there pool your knowledge and skills and start making firearms, similar to a ww1 or 2 era rifles, shotguns and pistols out of scrap metal and other materials, with engines and automation only being able to mass produce cartridges and shells; meaning most of these weapons must be made and maintained by hand.
Roughly how expensive would these weapons be if you wanted to buy one in this fictional world? As in purchasing power vs time invested in production?
>>47658484
tooling = very expensive
raw materials = quite expensive, do you know where to get zinc?
powder= probably not too expensive, but low quality and only blackpowder
overall cost would be incredibly high, more than a small country.
>>47658484
Once a few people could make a few reliable guns repeatedly, gunsmiths would be some of the richest craftsmen around. (assuming that there were people who could afford to buy them)
rifles of that era would be too difficult and expensive to manufacture, difficult and expensive to maintain, and producing ammunition would be difficult and expensive. It would be inordinately expensive and such a weapon would be far too valuable to ever see use in battle.
such a weapon would also be rather fragile and prone to mis-fires. While misfires are much rarer in modern day firearms, even they wear out after heavy user. A hand made weapon without modern tooling would wear out very quickly.
muskets would be much easier, especially with very simple firing (but pretty crappy) firing mechanisms like matchlocks. It'd have to be that unless anyone read up on how to make a doglock or wheel lock, or the materials for flint lock are plentiful.
>>47658484
You can't ask us something like that and then just not give us any relevant info about the other dimension you dingus.
What if it's exclusively populated by pacifists, or regenerating trolls? We have no idea about the actual payoff of owning guns if you don't tell us shit about where they're going to be used.
>>47659092
this
keep in mind real world firearms started appearing around the late 1400s, though they weren't effective enough to totally replace the need for plate armor for over a hundred years, and even then swords and bayonets remained useful as sidearms all the way through the 1800s and the early parts of The Great War
>>47659138
It's not the effectiveness that was the issue, it's the slow spread of them. Handgonnes are a lot more accurate and powerful than most people think, it's just that industry, supply, or tactics didn't immediately adjust.
Besides, decently trained and armed infantry and societal change was the reason for the decline of the guy in plate, not handguns.
The English and the Swiss had already shown that the knight wasn't king any more well before guns became widespread, and they did it with halberds and spears in the case of the swiss, and dismounted men at arms and archers with the english.
>>47659074
I think you're over exaggerating the costs and difficulties here.
These people have a working, functioning city and many of technical or mechanical background. Occasionally they would get new resources or raw materials, but the rest could be made up in workshops without a huge amount of difficulty. The usefulness of these guns would outweigh the negatives, and the various criminal and authority figures would no doubt have their hand in them.
>>47659262
>These people have a working, functioning city
you didn't tell us this earlier
nevertheless modern firearms have a lot that goes into their construction that I think you are underestimating.
Even today, a fully hand made weapon is extremely expensive, even if you can buy some factory made weapons new for a few hundred dollars.
>>47659262
I think you severely underestimate the effort required in producing handguns on any useful scale.
This is not some hobby activity where one person makes everything, you need a lot of specialized equipments and craftsmen, even for making something as primitive as a handgonne, let alone ww1 era tech weapons.
And again, tell us what we fucking have to work with here, all we have so far is "different dimension" and apparently in a city.
You might as well ask us "if jupiter had people on it, what would the price of a donut be there?"
We're almost completely in the dark here.
>>47659092
>>47659288
I didn't want to go into much detail but alright;
Basically the setting is
>Located in a city outside of time
>Locked in a world that is filled with trees, though it is stuck in a constant night
>Occasionally 'lost' people appear from down the foggy river in an old boat, or in a junker car, or just walking in from the woods after being starved and lost for days
>The few possessions these people have are what come in new to the world
>Occasionally out in the forest, random weird shit is found. Like a lost submarine or air plane
>Aliens exist in this city too along with humans and werewolves, a very multicultural society that must live together because there is no where else
>Seemingly infinite power grid, nobody knows what keeps the lights on
>City has a few old machines salvaged and scraped to create a few factories, but much of the production is handmade
>Guns are called 'chimneys' due to their smoke and dirty, ash spewing qualities. Gunsmithes are therefore called 'Sweeps'.
>Casinos and many street gangs run much of the city, as well as the Enforcers of the city council.
Basically what I'm trying to get it as should I make firearms;
>Rare so much that they count as what are essentially magical items/weapons?
>Uncommon so that only higher level characters could get them?
>Very common so all fights are essentially gun battles?
>>47659262
I don't think you can build or maintain an entire city with rare and unreliable tools and materials.
>>47659366
>>Rare so much that they count as what are essentially magical items/weapons?
This, just make them mythic weapons for legendary mooks. Something flashy, deadly, and impractical in all but the most specific of circumstances, then tailor the entire encounter around one guy having a BFG capable of instantly killing a single enemy.
>>47659044
People knew gunpowder since forever, and singular firearms were manufactured way before the age of gunpowder. The thing is - they were WAAAY too hard to produce and unreliable for any nation to take them up instead of bows.
So yeah. WW1-2 level weapons are out of the question for handcrafting. Flimsy muskets are the bets one could hope for.
>>47659396
I was more referring to vintage or 'proper' tools and materials. Like something from the outside brought in, but the idea is people make plenty due with all the scrap metal and second-third-fourth hand supplies around, remodeling and finding practical solutions to everything.
>>47659366
BINGO! ... it's the first season of Lost, right?
>>47659366
I'd say that you should make guns exactly as common or rare as genre convention dictates. Are you are going for a steampunk feel, a noir city, a fantasy world? Adjust the value and availability of guns based on that rather than what would be realistic.
If you want he realistic approach it's all about what level of innovation the inhabitants have access to. A percussion cap is a more advanced firing mechanism than a matchlock, but a craftsman who can craft a wheellock should also be able to make a percussion cap if someone showed him how. That's not about materials, it's about access to the right knowledge. Beyond this guns tend to get too advanced to be reliably crafted by individual gunsmiths. The amount of parts needed become too many, the industry and infrastructure required makes it hard for one city to simply produce everything needed for guns - at least that would be rather expensive. Depending on size this might be more or less so of course. A city of 10 million might have enough people and resources to keep a whole production chain from raw materials to finished guns going, a city of 10.000 probably wouldn't, or at least not without neglecting other sectors.
>>47658484
If you are making WW1 or later era guns, you are buying WW1 or later era metals.
How much do those cost in your world?
If you are making WW1 or later era guns, you are buying WW1 or later era chemicals.
How much do those cost in your world?
Without knowing the cost of materials, the rest is unanswerable. If the answer is "they're not for sale, everything must be built from the ground up," then the cost is literally entire countries worth of GDP. The industrial base you must first build to transmute ore into modern steel and chemical production is immense.
>>47658484
Since cased ammunition can be mass produced in your world, I think the price depends mostly on the type and quality of the gun.
On the low end, you could have something like the Tekhnotma books' firecrossbows. Those are essentially hand crossbows which use their bow and string not to launch arrows, but jam a firing pin into a shotgun cartridge mounted in front. Overall, very little metal is required for this. These could be cheap and the go-to firearms for every mob.
Mad Max Fury Road featured explosive spears. Those are equally low-tech and need little metal, if any.
The Mad Max game had shotguns fashioned from pipes and a simple trigger mechanism. Bit more range and accuracy over the firecrossbow. Maybe common enough to see as a status symbol amongst mobsters or standard weapon in an organized force. However, they should represent the worth of a month's pay or two, maybe more if they have multiple barrels.
Next in line are WW-era bolt action rifles. Should be priced about the same as a house. Too expensive for most folks, cheap enough for some big boss to equip his elite with them.
Semi-auto weapons may be worth a mansion, and for the price of a machine gun, factories and neighborhoods may change hands.
An artillery piece might actually be unpriceable.
>>47659984
> but jam a firing pin into a shotgun cartridge mounted in front. Overall, very little metal is required for this. These could be cheap and the go-to firearms for every mob.
This wouldn't work - a cartridge going off outside a barrel would send buckshot and gasses in all directions, with just enough force to damage the weapon itself and the shooter, but not anyone 5 meters away.
>>47659984
>Next in line are WW-era bolt action rifles
WW1-era rifles are the bolt-action weapons perfected almost to the limit if principle and material - there's a reason people still use Mosin-Nagant and Mauser98k today without feeling like they are doing historic reconstruction.
Bolt-actions produced by hand in this ours bubble would be half a century below those. Something akin to Dreyse needle-gun tops.
>>47659984
>Since cased ammunition can be mass produced in your world, I think the price depends mostly on the type and quality of the gun.
Really, once you have "cased ammunition can be mass produced," you have solved 90% of your problems.
>>47660007
Hence I said "very little metal," I thought it obvious that a rudimentary chamber is included in that.
>>47660035
Fair point, just drives the price for a WW-era rifle up though (mastercrafted item) and establishes the Dreyse and contemporaries as new baseline for bolt actions.
OP I reckon in terms of getting an idea of economic cost, look at expensive high-end handmade firearms.
A Hartmann and Weiss rifle will cost somewhere around 30,000 usd, and while they have a lot of extra stuff like engraving and personalization I think half the price allows for a certain maximum for bespoke firearms.
I think the equivalent of 10,000 usd isn't outside of the realm of possibility while still allowing those who need firearms to get them if they must.
That's twenty weeks of work at $11 an hour which doesn't sound unreasonable for a hand made machine made to extremely high tolerances.
>>47660068
Not necessarily.
Cased ammunition can mean paper cased like early rifle shells or some shotgun shells. Trees to make paper are abundant, and metal cases only get important once you move up to magazine-fed weapons.
I think it's only logical to use paper shells when your gun has no magazine, since spending money and metal on ammo not needed for your weapon when papercase does fine is stupidly wasteful.
Metal-cased ammo could be as rare and handmade as the guns shooting it.
>>47660100
>I think the equivalent of 10,000 usd isn't outside of the realm of possibility while still allowing those who need firearms to get them if they must.
Those 10-300 thousand are only possible because the technology for even hand-crafting rifles has been perfected and streamlined for centuries. Prototypes would be a lot less reliable and EXPONENTIALLY harder and more expensive to produce.
>>47660131
>10-30
selffix
>>47659209
>and dismounted men at arms
But those wore plate you dummy, hell even more than some French men due to different armor style maybe.
The final nail in the coffin were guys mounted on horseback with a pistol.
>>47658484
Unless you would be able to build machine guns - even a single one, mind you - the costs would be simply prohibitively expensive without entire infrastructure to keep the ball going.
Ever heard about "Cross-time Engineer"? The Stues of all Marty Stu books that exist? It STILL makes a good point how a single guy with massive know-how is still a single guy with nothing more than know how. So he ends up needing few years to even reach the point where he can start thinking about guns, and that's after he was busy to get finances, resource base, political support and (training) qualified workers to make a single breech-loading canon with hand-made rifling.
In fact, he was more successful with such trivial tasks like selling copious amounts of strong alcohol, wheelbarrows, metal farming tools and stuff like that, not to mention his first "invention" - a semi-modern loom powered by treadle. It took half a year of pondering and hard-work to create a SINGLE, most simplistic lathe.
In short - you need tools. And pretty specialised tools. And that means you first need to make them. Which by itself might takes months, if not years.
Daily reminder that something does not need to be fully automated to be chap.
Reminder that shitty, extremely cheap Chinese sweatshop workers produce loads of semi-complicated things like consumer clothes and plastic toys with just hands and basic machines.
You could 'mass produce' bullets without an automated machine. Imagine a small press device that would have a small depression and hard 'roller' on top. Pushing the lever down forces the brass square into a cyllinder shape, which would fall through the rolling hole beneath and a new square of brass could be placed. From there a simple seam would need to be sealed- without complex machines you can still greatly improve the production of 'hand crafted' goods, and OP has specified in the thread that this city has electricity and engines further simplifying the project.
>>47658484
Oh, so the old guns production and cost-efficiency thread is dying and we are already having another?
First, go talk with /k/. They are as autistic ad /tg/, but at least they know their shit.
Second, we had hand-made, breech-loaded, cartridge-fed rifles in 1560s. Worth about as much as entire content of small duchy due to production time and cost.
So unless you are going to build a home-made heavy machine gun or at least repetitive gun in style of Gatling, there is literally NO point bothering with this shit at all.
>>47660035
The Dreyse is pre-cased ammo.
OP is kind of fucking himself with his premise. The steps from 1870 firearms to WW3 firearms is literally all just simple weaponsmithing - once you have cased ammo, guncotton and barrels that can withstand guncotton, the rest is plumbing.
It took less than 50 years to go from "Hi guys I just invented the modern bullet" to "Hi guys this is my submachinegun," and while there were technical advances in those fifty years, they were efficiency increases, not breakthroughs - everything needed to produce a modern AR15 could be explained to an 1870s gunsmith in an afternoon. The first one would be an expensive prototyping exercise. The next one would be half cost. The fiftieth could be given away for free off the profit of the first 49.
>>47660114
>Cased ammunition can mean paper cased like early rifle shells
Now when OP said WW1 to WW2 but you're techincally correct* that "cased" and "metal-cased" aren't the same word.
*the best kind of correct
>>47660158
>Being this tier retarded
You are of course aware that those cheap Chinese sweatshops are using pretty complex tools and machines, that while cheap, simplistic and easy to build with modern know-how and resources, would be state-of-the-art tools 50 years ago.
>>47660131
Ok. What do you think they'd cost? I'm extrapolating from the cost of a high end firearm today.
On the other end of the scale, because we have technologies that allow us the manufactoring of sundry items, one can make a functional though simple shotgun for about $12 worth of materials.
Looking at the cost of outfitting a soldier in the Revolutionary War, a Brown Bess musket would have cost the British government the equivalent of about $2000. This is in the mid 18th century. Now they weren't stupid in the 18th century and they had sophisticated manufacturing techniques which they wouldn't have in this fictional world. I however think ten times the $2000 price is a lot, and any less is impossible.
>>47660158
You don't know shit about production.
>Reminder that shitty, extremely cheap Chinese sweatshop workers produce loads of semi-complicated things
They don't "produce" them. They assemble them. The parts are machine-made.
>like consumer clothes
Hand-sewn clothes made no progress outside of fashion sense of the word for the last 400 years.
> Imagine a small press device that would have a small depression and hard 'roller' on top
It's called a hand press. And it has to be manufactured very precisely, with correct shapes and sizes, otherwise it will just deform the material.
>forces the brass square into a cyllinder shape
That's not how it works. Bullet cylinders are rolled, not form-pressed. And even not touching that - you need a mass high-quality metal sheeting (as in "sheet") production for said "brass cylinders". Which means finding decent sources of zinc and copper ores, mining them, refining, casting, producing a proper mixture for alloy and sheeting. Last two can be done just barely without the use of complicated machinery. AND ALL OF THAT JUST TO MAKE A "BRASS SQUARE" FOR YOUR SCHEME.
>>47658484
Let's see... you can hand-made a smooth-bore musket that any dolt with just gunsmithy basics can manufacture by hand in few hours with resources or few days from a scratch...
... or spend next few weeks building a single gun that costs absurd sum of money, requires precise and complicated mechanism and gearing and takes few experts to work on it at the same time.
All to increase your firing speed about 5 times, meaning five pre-loaded smooth-bore muzzle-loaders can do the same job at no cost.
There is a reason OP why armies generally sticked with muzzle-loaders for so long and why EVERYONE suddenly jumped for much better firearms the moment you could make them for pocket change roughtly around 1870.
It's called price-to-profit ratio and dictates pretty much everything.
>>47658484
if you have unreliable access to tools + materials, you are very unlikely to be able to create primers, so most guns would be flintlock at best
>>47660158
And this is, lads and gents, why /tg/ should stick with games and nothing more.
>>47660203
>Ok. What do you think they'd cost
Complete cycle would be the entire work-time of about 14-18 manufactures with 30-100 workers each (half of them masters), for about two dozens of guns per month. Smooth bore, black powder, barrel-loaded. And yeah - stop thinking in dollars, it doesn't really work like that when we are talking outside the context of contemporary global economy.
>$12 worth of materials
You do understand that said materials are so cheap only because they are produced en-masse by a vast industrial complex? Try and produce me some smokeless powder starting from scratch.
>This is in the mid 18th century
Yeah. At that point they've mass-produced for a century.
>>47660212
>any dolt with just gunsmithy basics can manufacture by hand in few hours
>"I literally haven't had to craft something by my hand in my entire life"
>>47660180
It has been specified multiple times that these city people are not dumb medieval serfs. These are modern people, some of them with modern machinery and materials, and with a nearly infinite supply of electricity and demand.
The question of the thread was how rare to and the guns, not 'oh its impossible because it doesn't align exactly with my exact autistic expectation of reality which really isn't even that realistic in the first place.'
>>47658484
There are just too many factors, but for the sake of argument, let's try at least outline them, since listing would be impossible
>What is the general level of technology you have access to
>What infractructure exist already
>Do you at least have a semi-decent tool box to begin with
>Do you have political or financial support of anyone that matters in the dimension
>What about power and fuel?
>What do you mean by "unreliable access"?
>Who are those other people and what are their qualification?
>Do you have members of any other trades than gunsmiths in that group, if so - what?
>Do you have a chemist? A miner? An engineer with metal-smelting know-how? A qualified lathe operator? A metal worker of any kind?
>Do you have access to any other materials than just metal?
>What kind of scrap are we talking about?
And do on and forth. Without even broad definition of such stuff, it's simply IMPOSSIBLE to answer your question.
>>47660264
>It has been specified multiple times
Where? Because surely not in OP's post
>>47660255
If a reconstruction enthusias, using contemporary tools and materials, can make a Brown Bess in 5 hours presentation, starting with a piece of wood, different pieces of metal and a pipe, it means exactly that - any dolt with basic gunsmithy knowledge can make one within hours.
Especially when you compare it with expertise, tools and materials needed to make a semi-modern firearms.
>>47660243
>16 factories
>70 employees per factory
>=1120 employees
>40 hours per week
>4 weeks in a month
>=179200 man hours
>/24 firearms per month
>=7466.7 man hours per firearm
I think you're wrong by a factor of ten at least.
It's easy enough to convert dollars to man-hours, especially if you use the arbitrary amount I defined in my post. You also didn't read the rest of my post because it literally addressed the things you complained about.you fucking mongoloid
>>47660264
>It has been specified multiple times that these city people are not dumb medieval serfs. These are modern people
Medieval serfs were not dumb. At least, not dumber than you. Can YOU - a MODERN MAN - assemble the materials for a rifle round primer and make it? Do you know how to produce weapon-grade steel? Do you know what sort of wood you'd need for a stock? Can you draw at least a sketch of a simple breechblock for your rifle?
You get the idea. Even if some people in that bubble are modern firearms specialists - they are exactly that, specialists. They would know how to use specific tools to efficiently produce a number of specific parts from specific materials. Everything outside of that - like obtaining said materials and producing other elements - would be somewhat outside their competence.
So unless that bubble had the entirety of Izhmash Factory with all of it's workers and machinery transported there - I seriously doubt that anything above a simple musket would be viable from the get-go.
>>47660156
>>47660320
Those
As much as I hate to agree with this fucking atrocious book, it and the other anon make a point.
You NEED an infrastructure.
You NEED a lot of precise tools.
You NEED a lot of resources.
You NEED a lot of specialised workers.
You NEED a lot of know-how to get any of those going.
You NEED a MASSIVE funding to start from a scratch.
Otherwise you just can't make things out of thin air, as simple as that.
>>47660320
Someone with high-school level chemistry could put together a percussion cap if one had access to phosphorous. Necessity is the mother of invention, and I think if there were some reasonably educated people then solutions could be found and alternatives opened up.
I certainly don't think a firearm in this world would be cheap but I am struggling to understand why a musket would be worth more than 800 man hours.
>>47660320
>unless that bubble had the entirety of Izhmash Factory with all of it's workers and machinery transported there
Don't forget this factory needs also resources to operate at all. Having scrap is not the same as having access to pre-rolled sheets of high-grade steel or steel mill with rolling equipment to work out that scrap. And let's not forget about all the chemical components for cartridges. Black powder just won't do.
Hell, black powder itself isn't as easy to make as you can think without good access to nitrates. There was a fucking WAR over guano stock, just to get those nitrates.
>>47660299
> different pieces of metal and a pipe
They didn't have to cut down a tree, transport it and saw it into lumber. They didn't have to mine and transport the ore. They didn't have to refine it and cast it into metal. They didn't have to shape the metal work-pieces and pipe. They didn't have to manufacture springs and bolts. Et cetera.
>>47660307
>I think you're wrong by a factor of ten at least.
I don't think so, if we are talking about starting a weapon production from scratch with people who know very little on the subject.
Remember - it includes obtaining raw materials, transporting them, storing them, processing them, assembling them and providing for the workforce. And even then - in 18th century, in conditions 10 grades above that, about 30-40% of produced Brown Besses were REFUSE. Can you imagine how much unusable refuse would our little undertaking give out?
>>47660369
>if
Here is your answer.
If.
We don't know. OP didn't specify almost anything. And if you seriously and honestly believe that just having a necessity will turn things into workable solutions within short period of time (or outright, from the get go), you are fucking delusional.
>Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken.Always wanted to quote that, thanks for opportunity
>>47660387
>any dolt with just gunsmithy basics can manufacture by hand in few hours with resources or few days from a scratch
Just to remind you the original post made a CLEAR difference between working with and without resources, you fucking moron
>>47660387
to quote the OP;
>shotguns and pistols out of scrap metal and other materials
which means that the raw material steps can be ignored. This frees us up fairly well in terms of economic cost.
>>47660369
>Someone with high-school level chemistry could put together a percussion cap if one had access to phosphorous...
...and mercury. And fulminic acid. And antimony. And chlorine gas. And potassium...
>>47660387
>>47660419
And before you go all autistic - yes, I'm perfectly aware wood has to be cut and let lay for few years to dry up. Yes, I'm perfectly aware you just can't pull a one-man operation to extract ore, smelt it (and first building smelter) and work it into pipe. So seriously, take your meds before going for this one.
>>47660431
Please explai nus how this frees us from anything?
What kind of scrap is that?
What is the state of the scrap?
Do we have smelter to smelt it?
Do we have rolling equipment? Trip-hammers then?
Do we have anyone to analyse the quality and content of the metal we forged?
This solves NOTHING, hell, it only creates more problems.
>>47658484
Here you go, you fucking cunt: >>47621803
>>47660369
>Necessity is the mother of invention, and I think if there were some reasonably educated people then solutions could be found and alternatives opened up
>but I am struggling to understand why a musket would be worth more than 800 man hours
>>47660369
>if one had access to phosphorous
So close and yet so far.
"If one had access to" is exactly the problem. To be accessible, it must be sold. To be sold, it must be produced - mined today, or historically, rendered from bone ash which is exactly what it sounds like: Ash from burned skeletons.
You have none of that.
So could you get phosphorous? Absolutely! You could start reducing bone ash
>if one had access to sulfuric acid
... oh no. Oh no it says access again.
OK start over, Lead Chamber extraction, Sulfur Dioxide (Available from your local volcano) and ... oxides of nitrogen? OK that one isn't TOO hard, you just heat up regular air to hellish temperatures within an closed crucible.
So to make the first bullet, you need to set up:
NOx crucible (Requires steels, but I'm assuming those are available)
Lead
A volcano
specialist glassware to contain the acid and refine it
burned skeletons to rend down.
Now once you HAVE all that, you can make phosphorous. Not bullets, just the phosphorous.
We are amazingly wealthy today. Not because we produce a lot, but because we have all the things our ancestors produced for us, which we keep using.
>there are people right in this thread that think that "producing" guns is easy
I bet you cowards can't even smelt steel.
>>47658484
Calm down folks. If I can add one thing to this conversation, it is that in OP's later post that explains the setting, they get their materials from things that jusy show up like planes, trains, and cars. So there are some modern materials to play with. And next, the guy said there are aliens, so everything goes out the window anyway until we know what kind of tech the aliens bring with them to this bubble-verse.
>>47658878
It's not particularly difficult to even make nitrocellulose. The real difficulty is in primers. Expect to not have any real cartridges for a long time, anon.
What if the city has been around for 200 years?
>>47660609
I bet you cant either.......
>>47659454
And really, you're better off with a longbow than a flimsy musket. Bonus points for also being on a horse. Horse archers are bullfuck OP.
>>47660586
>We are amazingly wealthy today. Not because we produce a lot, but because we have all the things our ancestors produced for us, which we keep using.
Well, that's wrong.
We are incredibly wealthy in resources, but not, as you suggest, because our ancestors made it all. That is utter nonsense.
We are wealthy, because our ancestors created infrastructures which enabled us to manufacture the resources we can, in the volumes we do. In the words of Newton, by standing on the shoulders of giants.
>>47666437
>Being this openly retarded
More memes! I said MOAR!
