Who /spiritual but not religious/ here? I know it's a meme but it's also true. The mainstream religions (cuckstainity, pisslam, etc.) are all wrong but God and soul and such is definitely real.
Thoughts?
I started meditating when tulpas were big on /x/. Tulpa was a load a horseshit but meditation is pretty dope.
>>79543753
The rational voice in you tells you that God is a fairytale, but their will always be a part of us that wishes/desires for more than just this fragile existence, and that's okay. Those who foolishly believe scoundrels and base their lives on the lies of others are only seeking ruination.
>>79543753
Atheism is a merchant meme.
Spirituality is a human need, in my opinion.
>>79544228
God is real though. Stop browsing reddit
>>79543753
The Ultimate red pill is Atheism followed by Nihilism. We are insignificant dust compared to the scale of the universe. The actions we take in our lifetime will be largely ignored and no matter how much you try you will be eventually forgotten in the passing of time. We are not special. Once you understand that and accept it, you can truly begin to live.
Pantheism is kind of interesting.
>>79543753
I enjoy meditation and some forms of ritual, but real belief in the supernatural doesn't make sense to me.
>>79544228
I've seen atheists calling priest before death.
Just in case...
It's easier to be an atheist in safe space.
>>79543753
It's part of reality so explore it how you like but there's a lot of bullshit out there to be skeptical of too.
Yup, I know your feeling German-bro.
No doubt in my mind that all religions here on Earth are all created by man, often to control people for various reasons.
I do believe in "a God", not that of any religion. Also I believe there lies something beyond. However I also believe it's pointless worrying so much about it. All we should do in this life, is put good into the world
I also believe that some religions good outweigh their bad. Most people are too weak, and wont do good things unless they are told they are going to burn in hell or whatever if they don't. So I somewhat see it as a necessary evil.
>>79543753
I feel the exact opposite. I don't think souls or God are real, but I think Christianity is a good thing.
>spiritual but not religious
Ah the old cliche of every suburban 20 something white girl who is trying to shake off guilt.
Religions to hard to fall but she still feels bad for acting the way she does
>>79543753
"Spiritualism democratizes the transcendent.
>>79543753
>spiritual but not religious
Whenever I read that I imagine it's said with a lisp.
>>79544593
Sounds more like a deist or theist.
We're all part of the universal energy - there is a collective consciousness that thrives in that energy
>>79545429
It's not my fault all the interesting gods and their cults died thousands of years ago.
>>79543753
Yeah man, I, like, like God and, like, everything, just I don't like all those rules I disagree with, you know?
Pass the bong, brah
Hear, hear, OP.
Chop wood, carry water.
>>79545169
>I don't think souls or God are real
>Christianity is a good thing
By what measure? If you believe in the metaphysical good it seems illogical to not believe in God
>>79545429
religious and spiritual are virtually synonyms so long as their is no proper noun sitting atop your religiousness.
i am spiritual, i am religious, but any reasonably educated person can see the faults and flaws in any manmade dogmas, and therefore, think strict adherance to any one in particular is foolhardy.
fuck you and your reductions.
guilt has a biological basis, not a holy book basis.
if we didnt feel badly for doing certain things, altruism fails, and if altruism fails, humans fail as we rely on social support.
dont be a dweeb.
and again, fuck your reductions.
I believe in Mankind. I believe in Humanity. I believe in the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind. My faith gives me strength.
>spiritual but not religious
literally "I'm too degenerate to follow the traditions of a real religion but also scared of dying": The Ideology
The Bible, Torah, etc. are absurd read as anything other than allegory. Allegory that's valuable but largely relevant to the time in which it was written.
The notion of just happening upon this relatively (compared to how old the universe is) infinitesimal 70 year blip of consciousness is also absurd, if life goes from "nonexistence" to "the eternal void." That's like winning the lottery 5,000 times.
Consciousness extending beyond our current material understanding seems like an intuitive truth to me. I just feel it deep in my bones, that death isn't "the end."
/x/- /pol/ Edition?
My kind of thread.
Share your most amazing expiriences.
I have a few. Lets start with a short one.
>meditate
>concentrate very well
>this_is_it
>get a raging boner
>imense amount of energy rushes upwards starting from the base-chakra
>it stays at my chest level and is rushing inside me like wild water
>feels so fucking good
that happend 2 times, both times that was 3rd eye meditation.
I have more if there is intrest
>>79546238
>>79546395
"No."
>>79546040
I just think a God is illogical. The order and morals set in place by Christianity are good, and should be followed. I don't pray or do any religious worship, I only follow Christian doctrine.
>>79543753
i think God is but a metaphor for all that seems divine.
the reason be spiritual or fluidly religious is my preference to any one creed is because the idea of an all-loving, forgiving god is highly idealistic and is impossible to actualize in a world of suffering.
this is why the cults of ancient egypt, among many pagan religions, are more interesting to me, because they recognize chaos, death, suffering, and hardship ALSO as elements of humanity's divine experience and dont seek placation at the sanitized hands of monotheism.
existence is chaotic and insurmountable, so worship Apep.
existence is glorious, affirming, and unifying, so also worship Ra.
(again these names are but metaphors for elements of human experience, but a mindfulness for the transcendant will only serve you well, in whatever metaphors you choose, because there is something strange, spooky, and sweet about existing, even if you can never QUITE put your grubby little primate thumbs on it)
>>79543753
yes. where did that big bang come from? etc do shift me to the oppinion that there must be something. perhaps I did too much acid to believe there is a god as described in the scripture untill now.
>>79546238
mah nigga
>>79546171
>guilt has a biological basis
citation needed
>if we didnt feel badly for doing certain things
tyrone did not feel bad about robbing a store. He claims he dindu nuffin. Obongo McJunior was hungry and cannibalizes his own son, which is deemed acceptable in Africa. He did not feel guilt over it.
>>79546395
>there are no religions but cuckstianity, pisslam and kikism
true spirituality has a long tradition.
>>79546594
>The order and morals set in place by Christianity are good
Again by what measure
>I just think a God is illogical
How so? Logic doesn't mean what you think it means
>>79546594
>The order and morals set in place by Christianity are good,
why are they good?
>>79546636
>>79546238
but you believe, and belief gives strength through spirituality.
in fullhearted agreement, btdubs
>>79546774
>>79546636
>>79546238
fuck meant to add this picture
>>79546275
I'm a millenial Russian living in the future year of 2016, familia, why in the world would i ever take up Rinzai.
Taking up cultural baggage of whatever practice you're doing isn't the best thing you do, because you're bound to gett it all backwards. It's like people that take up Yoga and start spouting a lot of misinterpreted sanskrit words.
Like fucking people who say they practice Yoga and then explain Karma as celestial police/direct cause and effect
What i'm saying is, if you're doing some disciplinal practice, the more barebones it is, the better.
Don't be a fucking weaboo wearing a kimono every time you sit down to zazen, that's being supremely confused.
>>79546525
The night my stepdad had a sudden heart attack and plopped dead, I had this weird dream where we were chatting and settling some of out differences. Only the next day I heard about his passing. The most cliche reddit-tier "spiritual experience" ever but I swear to god it happened.
>>79546618
>existence is chaotic and insurmountable, so worship Apep.
>existence is glorious, affirming, and unifying, so also worship Ra.
That's not how they practised this. Look into Hinduism
>>79546618
I totally agree, but with one point.
I was thinking that way before spiritual expiriences.
I am not sure about Gods, but I am sure about spirits.
So Gods are very powerfull spirits maybe? Also with a hirarchy.
Makes sense to me...
>>79546238
I cringed pretty hard at that. Kill yourself.
Spiritual but not religious its like woodo or something, huh?
>>79546693
>projection
Never said that, Klaus. But what those religions and all the other real ones have in common is that practicing them takes more investment on your part than indolent naval gazing and occasional pseudo-philosophical shitposting.
>>79546395
>literally "I'm too degenerate to follow the traditions of a real religion but also scared of dying": The Ideology
mmm, i sure bet the people that draw Christ-chan pictures are observant and pious as fuck.
>>79546661
okay hows this for a citation....
all emotions are in your brain
your brain is biological
guilt is an emotion
guilt is biological
>dont be dense
id argue that even if your racist epigrams were true, even if those folks didnt claim to feel guilty, there were mental repercussions to their behaviour
since you seem to be a christfag, ill use the catholic terminology of "noetic effect" of sin
when one commits sin, it changes their thought process, makes them less trusting and more cynical of others due to a self-awareness to their own aptitude for cruelty.
hell is a metaphor for the isolated soul, which is a terrible place to be in, AGAIN, because humans are social and need others for support
even if those niggers tried to be badass and say, fuck it all, i dont feel guilty, i guarantee you that any action an individual takes affects their brain, and those racistly cited individuals would suffer isolation and a lack of trust in humanity due to their actions
>>79546958
id agree with the description of gods as powerful spirits, and furthermore, people who have an experience with any god or gods, are having a particularly intense spiritual experience
i dont believe in any gods literally, i just think they are mythic metaphors that help us spin an oral and written and visual tradition of a spiritual existence
so i guess we agree? haha
>>79547113
I never said the same mentality wasn't also present in people who ostensibly follow real religions
>>79544220
Tulpas can exist but not to the extent that /x/ wants you to believe. It's just a manifestation of thought. It cannot interact with anything in the real world. The trick is that the Tulpa "enters" their reality when they believe it does. Since reality for the individual is formed solely through thought and perception.
>>79546850
Well, in this case you can really say its coinsidence s:
I wouldnt be sure in this case.
One more from me:
>be in uni
>tired while class
>try to fall in halfsleep
>realize I am in a trance after seeing a female eye(I saw it before quite often, might be just a thought)
>this time it was extremly clear as it was realy, also with makeup and with the surrounding skin(unlike before)
>it gets sad, looks like it feels pain as it disapears
>see a long string of equations(I study physics)
>examine them,
>see them go away from me a little but not to far, looks like I am looking at it from a sitting a perspective and lean back on the chair
>return to conciousness
>look at neighbors sheet of paper
>I saw his fucking equasions
>mfw I accidently did astral projection(uncontrolled though)
>>79546747
>>79546725
They are good because they promote the kind of lifestyle that is family-centered, community-fostering, and they keep everyone at an attainable, yet strict, standard.
The reason I say a God is illogical is because the evidence pointing towards one is extremely thin.
>>79544439
What the swede said.
I am 'spiritual' to a degree, although not to the point where it overtakes my life. Mainly I just meditate.
>>79547246
>all emotions are in your brain
is there free will then?
>even if those niggers tried to be badass and say, fuck it all, i dont feel guilty, i guarantee you that any action an individual takes affects their brain, and those racistly cited individuals would suffer isolation and a lack of trust in humanity due to their actions
>living in a bubble my fellow burger?
Some cultures had much different ideas to what you should feel guilty about, whether it is wrought by chemical states in the brain. And some of these cultures have lived on for years. You can take the Aztecs for example, they had no guilt when ripping a heart out of a baby to sacrifice to their god.
>>79543753
Spirituality is a half step do the soul. A way to rid ones self of the hypocrisy of a universalist religion in an imperfect world.
Problem is, ditch the Jew gods, and you're still in an imperfect world.
Your pic had it right though. Go hard polytheism.
>>79546866
i dont know much about how they actually practiced it, but thats less of a concern for me
i am more interested in acknoweleding that a generally homogenous culture believed in both gods of chaos and gods of order, which is a telling metaphor for human experience
and i shall look more into hinuism, but if you have any info about the practices of egyptians, id be much obliged to hear you out, kind aryan brother
>>79547569
And that is good why?
That's not what illogicl means.
>the evidence pointing towards one is extremely thin
How so?
>>79547569
>They are good because they promote the kind of lifestyle that is family-centered, community-fostering, and they keep everyone at an attainable, yet strict, standard.
Is this good by a universal standard? And you are assuming that societal benefit is good in the first place, or at least better than personally driven gain.
>>79544439
>Atheism is a merchant meme.
good goy, pay no attention to all abrahamic religions being jewish plots to unite or divide as needed for ruling.
>>79547425
Yes, we do.
>>79547061
Do you own a fedora?
Ever heard of celebrations, meditation etc.?
Only leftists are "I am pagan XXXDDD"
Its a serious religion.
>>79544443
>God is real though.
in what form?
Actually, it is all very simple.
Simultaneously one and ten thousand,
forever dying and being born again,
parts remember, parts forget
not either or, but both and
You are part of all, and you are all.
What thoughts and actions you take will be returned, just as every effect has a cause.
Yet, when we stop adding causes, the que begins to shorten, and the effects take their course until there are no more causes.
Then there is balance.
>>79547549
I would like to look further into this matter.
Share more information, if you have, please.
/interesting thread
anon here not supporting Christianity because I believe the Bible to have been Re-written to support the Jew.
Spiritual some what and believe in science. Also Nihilism is cool.
>>79547673
>free will
I'll quote the late great Christopher Hitchens when asked "Do you believe in Free Will?"
He said, "Do I have a choice?"
this funny little bit of irony shows that whether or not anyone has genuine free will, we at least have some illusion of free will that makes it a virtual reality.
i personally dont think we have complete free will, because we are products of our surroundings and peers, BUT we also have the ability to shape our surroundings and shape our peers, so there certainly seems to be some element of agency in all of us
and just because emotions are in your brain, doesnt mean you have to ACT on all of your emotions, and this self-control over our more animal natures, again, shows a degree of free will
>guilt is culturally subjective
yes certainly, i agree with you here
but two things
1) the Aztecs literally thought they were keeping the sun in the sky and gaining fruitful harvests through their heart-ripping-outing, so why would they feel guilty? this is clearly a greater good, if they actually believed it, as im sure that they did
2) are the aztecs around? no, because cruel cultures tend to not exist as long as, or be as successful as liberated, life-giving cultures
obviously this is a generalization, as we see plenty of cruelty today
Guilt, while biological in nature, is certainly affected by what your culture tells you is right and wrong, but even the ancient aztecs, id warrant, felt guilty about SOME things, like murdering family members or stealin
>>79544777
LaVey?
>>79547886
The only worthwhile part of religion is it's ability to act as an institution that unites communities. The rest is fairy tales for grown ups.
>>79548220
>i personally dont think we have complete free will, because we are products of our surroundings and peers, BUT we also have the ability to shape our surroundings and shape our peers, so there certainly seems to be some element of agency in all of us
You don't really understand the debate about free will do you?
No surprise. You write like a redditor
>>79548060
that was a beautiful bit of cryptic poetry, anon
bless you, i got something unnameable out of that
maybe we share some molecules of a past life
>>79547768
>>79547787
There is no evidence for God outside of the Bible. If I was given irrefutable proof of God existing, I would believe in a second. I just don't see any.
Those morals are not upheld by anything, they are just necessary to create small, tightly-knit communities. These communities are the best way to address every person's needs, both mental and physical. Since humans are the only sentient things we know of in the universe, catering to our needs is the first priority.
>>79543753
I am spiritual, we exist to experience something, before we are born we trce a plan on what we want to live amnd experience in our lifes, at that moment we dont know what it is like to be starving or be dying of sickness, thats why we experience things like that on the moment you actually live it you regreat what you are passing trown xD we live to learn thats it, out of this body is very perfect in a way that it gets boring. Reptilians are real if you train your vision you an see them im peoples bodyes, mainly politicians and high power eople, or mainly just see some sorth of fake aura.... if you get to an expert level you start to see things like cancer or even implants, those implast manipulat the things we do, believe in, and the way we think, every one has them and we get them by what we expose ourelft to. Aliens are real... " aliens" they are not what mayority of people think they are. but they are still evil.
>>79548220
your previous post mention all emotion are chemical states of the brain. Why would you not conisder selfcontrol or restraint to be a chemical state in the brain?
>1) the Aztecs literally thought they were keeping the sun in the sky and gaining fruitful harvests through their heart-ripping-outing, so why would they feel guilty? this is clearly a greater good, if they actually believed it, as im sure that they did
2) are the aztecs around? no, because cruel cultures tend to not exist as long as, or be as successful as liberated, life-giving cultures
obviously this is a generalization, as we see plenty of cruelty today
Now you are claiming that the continuation of society is good. By what standard are you ground this "good" on.
>>79548443
educate me instead of insulting me then, oh sacred genius of pol
never been on rebbit, but they must have some decent writers then
are you referring to the idea that all thoughts and actions are resultant of neurons firing in a chemical basis that we have no control over? if so, that's an interesting point, but AGAIN, ill echo my previous point THAT AT LEAST WE OPERATE UNDER THE ILLUSION OF FREE WILL AND THAT MEANS SOMETHING, and maybe this is just a delusion i have to keep from offing myself, but ill take it.
>>79548473
Why are you assuming "catering to our needs" is good? Ultimately, you have to come up with the assumption that survival is good. So you will run into framework of evolutionary ethics. Is this the moral framework you subscribe too?
I believe in a format of reincarnation. Not the whole currynigger fairytale of it, but I just don't see how a person could perceive "nothing" after death.
I think our consciousness travels from host to host and forgets what happens along the way. Obviously not backed by science and I can't say for certain, but this seems the most plausible out of any life after death theories.
>>79548473
>There is no evidence for God outside of the Bible
Yes there is
>If I was given irrefutable proof of God existing, I would believe
God are you stupid
>>79548509
i could very well see selfcontrol being a chemical state of the brain
and im basing good on, that which promotes the highest possibility of more life
because i think life is good
because if there was no life, we wouldnt have this conversation, monsiuer
>>79548267
You mean the Russian Jew who stole from Crowley, Redbird, Nietzsche, and Rand to fund his pissy panty fetish before dying and leaving his wife and kid broke?
Sup Rebbit: The Thread
>>79548267
You mean the Russian Jew who stole from his betters to fund a panty pissing fetish and die leaving his wife and kid penniless?
Get that weak shit outta here.
I've honestly been considering islam recently,
JUST
>>79548774
>and im basing good on, that which promotes the highest possibility of more life
this is my biggest issue with this. What you are doing right now is that you are taking a standard of good, "perseverance of human life" and using this as the basis of your moral framework. What is the basis for this claim?
>because i think life is good
because if there was no life, we wouldnt have this conversation, monsiuer
this is non sequitur.
>>79548620
>I write condescending and use big words to hide my insecurity about this point
Wew reddit.
>>79548642
Reaching the maximum satisfaction of the population is good because it would make every person happy, and within the human species, this would be a good thing for everyone. I think people developed moralities evolutionarily, but there is too much diversity in that realm. There is no consensus, so nowhere will ever be moral. This is why the Christian philosophy should be adapted everywhere. That way, people could aim for one specific goal, and accomplishing it would be fairly easy.
>>79548722
Enlighten me, then. I would literally love to be proven wrong.
Just look at everything through a logical lense. The most rational position to take is agnosticism. There's no proof for God's existence and likewise there's no proof for God's non-existence. Atheists and theists cannot prove their beliefs and never will.
However, God can definitely exist if you just change his definition. My god exists, his real name being evolution.
I believe in the god KEK.
>>79549011
This is some of Albert Camus' stuff, but that the debate of meaning, the debate of good, is only possible in the dialogue between the human and universe.
ill extend this beyond humans to any rational, sentient creatures out there who examine meaning
i.e., without life, there is no conversation in or about the universe, therefore without life, there is no good or meaning because these are distinctly human categorizations that are argued and examined in order to better understand ourselves and our place in the universe
im not saying all humans are intrinsically good, just that without life, this whole question is impossible as it stems from our own brains
and promoting more of these brains to live and experience the universe betters our chance of achieving the good
or maybe, we arent good at all, and the earth knows whats best for it and we will face mass extinction soon, i really dont claim to know shit, even after this tirade
>>79549247
>Reaching the maximum satisfaction of the population is good because it would make every person happy
so utilitarianism then? would you sacrifice one kid for the happiness of a thousand others? Is this moral?
> I think people developed moralities evolutionarily
I personally disagree with this claim. I think that morality is unchanging. Rape is always wrong, regardless of what the culture tells us.
>>79548129
allways glad to see intrested people
joyofsatan.com is a good website
They guys dont care about people calling them edgy at all.
The information on this site is very intresting(and [mostly] correct) and the meditations work very well.
One more of my expiriences.
My first:
I need to say that I allready was intrested in devinity, I had no image of god or something.
I just thought God is everything and divinity just means that something is the most important.
My belief was extremly superficial and by defenition I would have been an atheistfag or paganaboo.
So now the story
>Sit in my room listening to atmospheric bm
>good music, get completly into it, no toughts in my head, most likely trance state(cant tell for sure, I didnt know anything back then)
>feel weak wind on my arms and face
>check window
>check door
>both closed
>what is happening???
>get very curious
>I suspect some kind of spirit (I didnt believe in any kind of spirit or "supernatural" stuff back then)
>I was talking some crap I cant remember to said spirit
>I didnt see anything but a slight vibration in the air(could have been caused by darkness)
>spirit comes closer, I could tell by increasing windforce(feels like, if you would blow on your arm from 20-25cm distance)
>directly in front of me (telling by feel)
>it is defently interacting with my body right now
>feels like it takes out life
>cant breath
>horrible fear and I take of my headphones and shake awake
>confusion
>fear
>curiosity
>curiosity wins
>I put back my headphones and keep listening to the music
>Doesnt take long for the wind to reapear
>Comes closer again
>for some reason I didnt believe that it wants to hurt me
>again it interacts with my body
>feels incredibly good this time, like giving me lifeforse or something
>feel the wind very strongly but gently inside my chest
>this keeps going for some minutes
>spirit leaves after that
>I am stunned for 1 week
>after I couldnt find any explanation I started research on that topic
>>79544228
The rational voice tells me that, amongst every possible definition of god, be it a supra-dimentional being, aliens, nerd who made a computer simulation, whatever, there are good chances one of them validate.
That somehow it cares about humans, that I can do anything about it's disposition toward me, that somehow a cult managed to find what works, that's absurd.
Believing in god, in some way or form,is alright. Being religious is retarded.
>>79549020
whats YOUR point then? i tried reaching out and understanding more about your debate on freewill, an argument to which you have yet to offer any insights, you illiterate fuck.
why cant emotions be biological without taking away any experience of spirituality?
id say spirituality is also bioligical in nature, because without it, we'd have no will to live.
TO SAY SOMETHING HAS A BIOLOGICAL BASIS IS NOT TO UNDERMINE IT, YOU FOOL
>>79549452
>without life, there is no conversation in or about the universe, therefore without life, there is no good or meaning because these are distinctly human categorizations that are argued and examined in order to better understand ourselves
are you sure about this? If we all were to die right now, would rape no longer be immoral? To me, morality is a natural law, much like mathematics. 1+1=2 and rape is wrong.
>>79548876
I did read his satanic bible.
Its total nonsense.
I dont like this guy, and that canadian guy I replied to seem to like LaVey.
>>79548397
That is simply not true.
Spirituality has allways played a big role, only in cuckstianity its a sin.
>>79543753
I believe in god, but no in the churches. I hope to find him by my own
>>79549725
if we were all to die now, there would no longer be the concept of rape
ducks mainly procreate through rape, do you think they think about hell? or is survival of species more important
i also think morality is natural law, and that societies that promote rape, murder, or theft, dont tend to do well.
i think we agree a bit more than we let on, hope im not just confusing my points here
>>79543753
I'm with you, Teutonic.
>>79549670
The question is whether you can decide on the spot or whether HOW YOU DECIDE is predetermined by your surroundings (who are again predetermined etc. going back to a universe set in motion where everything will happen a certain way because the conditions people find themselves in are predetermined).
Example: Do you have the free will to decide whether or not to do a thing or is your decision already determined by your experience
>>79547506
I want to make a Beatrice Tulpa...
>You know for what
>>79549909
>if we were all to die now, there would no longer be the concept of rape
so if we were to die 1+1=2 is no longer valid? This is a valid analogy if you were to think that moral laws exist.
>ducks mainly procreate through rape, do you think they think about hell? or is survival of species more important
We don't hold animals to the same standard as we do to humans. Some ant species enslave other ants yet we humans would not say the ants are committing evil. Morality is something that only applies to humans. This is why the idea of human rights can even be considered legitimate.
>morality is natural law
then how did this natural law come to exist?
>>79550148
everything is predetermend?
Ever heard of Shrödingers Cat?
Its totaly underrated in its meaning for philosophy.
It basicly says that things are not predetermend.
I think that is the exact place where human soul interacts with the brain.
>>79550420
I don't believe in predetermination but no Schrödingers Cat doesn't count into that
>>79549486
Not exactly utilitarianism. It would be using the Christian doctrine to reach a state of society where everyone is satisfied. As for human sacrifice, it really depends on the exact situation. If a single child was somehow causing a billion people to suffer immensely, it would be acceptable to get rid of it. However, if two people were annoyed by one, it would not be moral.
I think rape is wrong because it is hard-wired into our minds to see it that way because it somehow damaged the females in a way that disrupted primitive human life.
>>79550148
i agree with you...i thought i made it clear that i know the will is influenced by our surroundings and our history
but this just offers an infinite regression
what if i was told my whole life to act in a certain way, lets say, never to touch a red tea kettle because god would hate me
then when i see a red tea kettle, i decide to touch it anyways
we may have freewill in a binary sense, that impulses arise, impulses that are based on our genetics, our surroundings, our upbringing, but in that present moment of action, there may well be a possibility to do anything or act contrary to all our lessons
if i saw my wife cheating on me, i may have a tribal instinct to murder her
i might not murder her due to laws, both secular and religious, or might not just because i respect life
or i may have been taught all that holy stuff, but still say fuck it all, because my adrenal glands are going haywire and i shoot up the place.
i dunno, genuinely, the HOW YOU DECIDE is an interesting question, as our upbringing may limit our conceivable responses
i dont really know where we disagree or what we are arguing about, just short of you not liking my tone haha, which is perfectly acceptable, because you cant control your reactions
>>79550782
>then when i see a red tea kettle, i decide to touch it anyways
Because of your upbringing you were predetermined to rebel against it? I tend to shy away from this debate because I don't think it has practical consequences
>>79550672
>Not exactly utilitarianism. It would be using the Christian doctrine to reach a state of society where everyone is satisfied.
Keep in mind you are under the assumption that happiness is good (very intuitive i know), yet there is no basis for this. The reason why the Christian doctrine can make any claims on this is because, Christians can claim that these moral laws are divinely commanded. I worded the sacrifice example a bit wrong. What I meant was say if you could concentrate all the suffering in the world on one person, is it moral to do so? In utilitarianism, you would say yes, as this maximizes happiness. Other moral frameworks would say this is immoral, for example if they hold the principle that violating one's agency is always immoral.
>think rape is wrong because it is hard-wired into our minds to see it that way because it somehow damaged the females in a way that disrupted primitive human life.
But if it were to develop evolutionary, it is possible to imagine that at one point rape is okay in a tribal society, and that capturing women from other tribes is permissible.
>>79550399
i think physically one and one items would equal two, sure, of course
but these are human symbols, abstract representations of reality that may cease to exist when there are no more brains to think of such things
>we dont hold our moral conventions to animals
certainly, i agree with you
>how did our natural law come to exist?
because humans, as higher primates, depend on social constructs, we are not isolated beings: we have communities, tribes, families, and we raise our young, like most mammals
if we never conceived of moral laws, like those against murder, theft, rape, etc, our social communities would degrade, humans wouldnt trust each other, humans wouldnt help each other out, and humans would die
note, not all moral laws are the same throughout cultures, as you said, as there are some where killings are justified (even in america, where we think its moral to kill people who are so antisocial that they are destroyers of civilized life)
this illustrates my point well, one point we say killing is wrong, but killing is sometimes right if its for security purposes
this shows that morality can be a bit hypocritical (though this may not be a bad thing) and also is focused on preserving the COMMUNITY as a whole
>>79551211
it may be due to upbringing, it may be due to a genetic code that all generations seem to have against their forefathers simply because rebellion is often a way to create progress, for better or for worse
and wew lad, i fucking agree with you, that's what i wanted to say earlier with the quote, "Do I have a choice but to have free will?"
maybe maybe not, but its not like an answer to this question will change reality haha
all best, german amigo, im sure youre a kind enough bloke in real life
same
>>79551343
as to your point about rape sometimes being acceptable historically, i genuinely agree with you
because passing of genes is the most basic law of life
and if you dont have womenz around you, but that neighbor tribe does, its perfectly moral in some sense to go rape a woman
only civilized cultures have the luxury of having these moral discussions, just see maslows hierarchy of needs
>>79551370
>but these are human symbols, abstract representations of reality
us not being there to witness reality doesn't make laws like these nonexistent, they would just remain undiscovered. This is like saying if we cease to exist, the laws of gravity no longer exist as well because it is unobservant.
>not all moral laws are the same throughout cultures
I think you a misunderstanding what natural law means. Moral laws do not change, in the same what mathematical laws do not change. We can create our own culture and choose not to follow these moral laws, but they would still exist as a standard of right and wrong.
>because humans, as higher primates, depend on social constructs, we are not isolated beings: we have communities, tribes, families, and we raise our young, like most mammals
so do you subscribe to evolutionary ethics? check out my other posts with the other anon to see why I disagree with evolutionary ethics. Also, I would like to point out that all of your conclusions hinge on the premise that life is good, which we still haven't established why that is.
>>79551343
The brain releases chemicals that make people feel good when they are happy. I think this is basis enough to believe that happiness is good for people. For the sake of the entire species, I would say that concentrating the suffering of the entire world into one person is a permanent solution to a terrible problem, so it would be the best option for everyone.
>rape is okay in a tribal society, and that capturing women from other tribes is permissible.
Literally Africa
>>79551911
"they would just remain undiscovered"
actually...maybe youre onto something, i like that
but i think i tried to establish why life is good, simply because life is necessary in order to have this conversation, to talk about what is good.
maybe its not in the grand scheme of things, maybe being a boulder is better, but right now? i wouldnt trade being a human for any other entity, animated or inanimate
can i ask if you believe life to be good? genuinely interested in your answer, anon
>>79551998
>The brain releases chemicals that make people feel good when they are happy
I really hope this isn't the underlying principle of your morality. I feel good when I put my dick in a tight 6 year old. That doesn't make it morally ok.
>>79551883
I like you.
I could have wrote exactly the same.
That is the exact thing that any kind of moral-prophets fail understand.
Moral is aplyable in the rarest cases, only in cases where you can safely asume that everybody acts moraly and doesnt seek benefits at your cost.
>>79543753
Man is a soulless animal and ego-machine, the world is shit, but everything we have. A wast microcosm of complexity and truly sublime for those who have eyes to see.
Daoism is the most correct religion regarding the nature of God
Buddhism is the most correct religion regarding the means of achieving salvation.
>>79548129
where are you sven?
I wrote this for you :^(
>>79543753
Eclectic pagan here.
Scream Odin and kill them all.
>>79552174
>but i think i tried to establish why life is good, simply because life is necessary in order to have this conversation
remember the talk we had about moral laws that exist regardless if we were there to observe it or not? Life then is not necessary for these laws to exist.
>can i ask if you believe life to be good? genuinely interested in your answer, anon
I believe life is good because God has commanded for it to be so.
>>79552275
<3 gods bless you, anon, was starting to feel like i was shouting into the abyss here
peoples not understanding that having this conversation puts us at a privileged place that is not just above animals, but even above some humans who are unfortunate enough not to have the lowest tiers of the pyramid
fellow german by blood, rock on
>>79552195
Your good feelings are negated by the bad ones of the 6 year old. If it somehow made both parties satisfied, then it would be morally acceptable.
>>79551911
I ask this almost every thread, but what do you think about the seven laws of Noah?
> Do not deny God
> Do not blaspheme God
> Do not murder
> Do not steal
> Do not engage in illicit sexual relations
> Do not eat the limb of a live animal
> Establish courts for the administration of justice
To me, this is the most sensible and complete list of what actually constitutes 'natural law'. An entire corpus of law can be written just by expounding upon these seven laws, the Jews believe everyone on earth is bound by them, but i have only ever seen one other anon who is familiar with them.
>>79552519
Then how can you possibly make this claim
> For the sake of the entire species, I would say that concentrating the suffering of the entire world into one person is a permanent solution to a terrible problem, so it would be the best option for everyone.
The one child's feeling would negate the rest. Or if your simply playing by a numbers game, then All the good feeling the pedophiles in the world would experience would override that of the child.
>>79543753
>spiritual but not religious
>>79552447
why cant god have programmed moral law into our biology? i didnt realize i was arguing with a dogmatist, no offense, but i believe that god created man in his image, and because we are a gentlemanly group, we repaid the favor.
what is your god, anon? assuming its not just the god of the old or new or scientological testament, in which case, i fear this is where our debate ends in derision
>>79552598
Not all of these are natural laws. They are civil laws. I think the main moral law comes from two things. We are made in God's image, so humans have inherent worth (this means life is then sacred) and the "love your God and love your neighbor as yourself"
>>79552850
>why did a spirituality thread get hijacked by people who dont understand God to be a metaphor for existence as a whole
>>79552649
It has to do with numbers, yes. However, unless it is a large gain for satisfaction, it is not moral to do something like that to someone.
For a pedophile, not fucking a child isn't suffering. They can achieve release through other, non-harmful means.
>>79552696
>why cant god have programmed moral law into our biology?
What do mean by programmed? moral laws from evolution doesn't make sense as it will mean that these laws are not constant.
>what is your god, anon?
Jesus Christ
>>79552492
only 1/4 german.
rest is slav and komi(same subrace as the finish people)
You might want to read my storys, I really like to share them.
>>79549513
>>79547549
>>79552987
>However, unless it is a large gain for satisfaction
what is considered a large gain. I thought you were operating under the premise that maximizing good feelings is the only principle considered in this moral framework.
>For a pedophile, not fucking a child isn't suffering.
I am trying to use an example that demonstrates a direct loss-gain relationship between a group of people. I'm sure we can think of one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PN5JJDh78I
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." - Carl Sagan
>>79552971
I don't see how spirituality and theism are mutually exclusive?
>God to be a metaphor for existence
What is your reasoning that led you to believe this?
>>79552971
Gods is not just a metaphor buddy.
They are some sort of very powerfull spirits.
>>79553289
praise science
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOYTHg8cadY
you should listen to this seminar
>>79553002
>by programmed
i mean evolutionary ethics is not dissonant with belief in god, so long as you can foresee a creator who creates not just by abracadabra, but by algorthims and the long process of evolution
as we've shown, moral laws ARENT constant, as evidenced by the differing cultures throughout time
your moral laws from jeebus are only good for people who have nothing more to worry about than peace and love and harmony, THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ACCEPTED BY THE STRUGGLING TRIBAL EXISTENCE OF MANKIND WHEN WE HAD TO FIGHT OFF OTHER TRIBES, PROTECT OUR WOMEN, AND FIGHT FOR RESOURCES DAILY
please, again, see maslow's hierarchy of needs: to have this discussion of morality (of self-actualization, of the big questions of life) is only possible once all your other biological needs are met
Jesus Christ is but a metaphor, stolen from countless other myths, and im not gonna cite that, just look it the fuck up, but a good metaphor
Christ: 100% human/100% divine
metaphor being....
Mankind: 100% animal/100% something more
we are all jeebus, you sill boy, all children of god.
the rest is just cult and politics, dont buy into it
>>79546238
>the emperor will never exist
Why live?
>>79553389
God is a metaphor, because all words are metaphors
metaphors are abstract and arbitrary symbols or concepts pointing to real phenomena
humans experience transcendance, humans experience the divine, therefore we create the word, the FUCKING WOOOORRD, just a word, GOD, to encapsulate this sensation
The only future for humanity, one that will prevent the inevitable apocalyptic scenario end, is simple two steps and is as such:
1. Dissolution of all world religions, doing so by emphasizing the symbology behind them and that the necessity of the time required an outright figure of authority to control civilization pre-modern law. Many people in this day and age both mentally and subconsciously refuse to disarm their beliefs because of the determination of denial that preserves whatever they are trying to achieve (Abstinence with help from the power of god, the desire for an eternal place in heaven, needing a higher purpose to fend off existential agony etc)
2. In turn, the replacement of all world religions with legitimate spiritually enlightening practices and principles. Acceptance that there is an unknown, achieving non-resistant growth (Removal of limiting beliefs like there is only a third dimension and what we experience physically is the extent of our sentience) and finally the affirmation that instead of revering a deity, we should revere ourselves instead. To be more precise with that last point, I meant not specifically the self but our potential. It is not a figure or a symbol. It has no gender or identifiers. What we revere isn't a linear thing, but a diverse set of meanings.
Cont.
>>79553618
>he doesn't believe in the immortal God Emperor
BURN THE HERETIC
>>79553753
We revere the truths of humanity when enlightened, we revere our empathy for one another, the great lengths of what we can achieve together, our ability to feel, experience and make sense of everything. And so on, the idea behind this is to refocus that we only have ourselves, or rather that we should remember that we are the most important things to ourselves
As odd as that sounds, it is in in principle, excluding current cultural, ethnic and racial division, a unifying cause. If we treat this new semi-organised spiritualism in the same way that we do our existing religions, it would in theory not only begin to solve the population (The path of enlightenment and spiritualism is a form of natural red pill, it also intends to revert the causes of personality defects, destroys neurosis and brings everyone on the same level of emotional existence - which is half the battle of making the world a better place for everyone.)
Now think for a second that we were able to achieve a world where there is no organised religion or stunting beliefs, all nations have achieved the same level of stable governance, all adhering to acceptable laws and rights, there is low migration and the majority of the worlds population is right leaning between authoritarian and libertarian.
Do you think this can be achieved without something like I have proposed? And still, do you think it can be maintained without it either way.
>>79544495
>We are insignificant dust compared to the scale of the universe
Yes and?
>>79553534
>as we've shown, moral laws ARENT constant, as evidenced by the differing cultures throughout time
Then you are no longer taking about moral laws. 1+1 is always 2. The same way that rape is always wrong. It might be pragmatic to rape in tribal circumstances that you have mentioned, but that doesn't mean rape is moral.
>by the differing cultures throughout time
A culture might say that 1+1 is 4, but that doesn't make it right. A culture has no say in what is moral or not. If you were to subscribe to this moral relativism, then to apply justice to a culture separate from yours is ludicrous, yet we do this all the time.
> see maslow's hierarchy of needs
read the previous posts again. I thought we agreed that humans need not observe or discover these natural laws for them to exist
>Jesus Christ is but a metaphor
he actually existed you know...
>>79553359
they arent mutually exclusive, id agree
humans being spiritual entities precedes any concepts of Gods, we are pattern seeking, truth seeking creatures by nature, and sometimes that "truth" that "meaning" is encapsulated by arbitrary symbols or names such as various gods or goddesses
and I mean the capital G god is a metaphor for everything as its commonly used, that which is all-knowing, all present
whats all knowing and all present?
the sum total
everything
therefore god = everything
you and me, the birds and bees,
rocks, flocks, and even aboriginees
this doesnt mean this is necessarily what you or anyone else believes god to be, but the fact that we can have differing opinions of God shows that it is a metaphor
a metaphor is a comparison in the abstract to define a real thing
what god is to me
is different to you
therefore, the word, God, functions as a metaphor
just what i believe, not trying to push it on you, i swear, not trynna piss anyone off
>>79553270
It would have to account for an uncalculatable number due to the butterfly effect. Throwing a little girl to two pedophiles would cause a direct gain in happiness, but that girl's family will be upset by this.
A direct gain-loss relationship would be a famine, and there is only enough to feed half of the people. In such a situation, it is necessary to feed only half of the people due to the impossibility to choose to feed everyone. In an unavoidable situation like this, it is the most moral to save those who produce the most satisfaction.
>>79552850
>>79552850
I suppose i should ask how we are defining natural law. I was referring to natural law as those moral standards and expectations which are common to all men.
You're right though, they are civil laws, but isn't that what we are looking for anyways? Moral laws which enable civilization? AFAIK, the Jews deduced these from Genesis, and were given to all the children of Noah. Their violation includes the death penalty as a maximum punishment.
I still much prefer these precepts as a moral code than anything else though.
>>79554013
the man existed yes, but the myth of him, is what I believe is metaphorical
>I thought we agreed that humans need not observe or discover these natural laws for them to exist
We do, in a way, but I'd argue that morality against rape does not exist in those tribal cases because they have not achieved a civilization that is able to do away with rape yet
to quote you, they have not discovered this rule yet
i think we may have to agree to disagree, but genuinely, its been a pleasure talking with you, sir, all the respect in the world on ya.
>>79543753
Shut your filthy fucking mouth pagan fedora scum
PS, how does one save a thread, if possible?
id like to do so
>>79554058
>Throwing a little girl to two pedophiles
What about 10 pedophiles then. Surely, that number of people would outweigh the girl's family.
Your famine example has an issue in that you are assuming everyone's happiness to be the same.
>>79554087
natural law is different from civil law in that they have always existed and are unchanging. And yes, civil law are commonly derived from natural law. An example of this would be that theft violates property rights (which would then be covered by natural law). Also, I think it's important to note that the civil laws found in the OT (leviticus) is meant for a jewish theocracy and not gentiles. The New Testament reformed these into to laws that I mentioned in my earlier posts. The old laws were only in place because the Jews "hearts were hard".
>>79553866
And yet we keep assuming we have some sort of privileged place in the universe. Some chosen people, picked by the supposed gods out of anything else out there.
>>79543753
I'm religious but not spiritual. God, spirits and all this crap is obviously not real, but religions are needed now more than ever.
>>79546171
>I'm spiritual but guilt is solely biological
Now who's bieng a reductionist retard
You all need to read some Monastic or (((Cabalic))) texts. Modern religious literature is garbage
>>79554704
because the displeasure of the girl, the lack of consent to an assumedly innocent child who does not likely enjoy being raped by 2 or 10 old dudes, is the first and only component that needs be examined
in general moral terms, and this is Kantian ethics here, HUMAN BEINGS (or any rational agents, like meybe sum aliens) MAY NEVER BE USED AS MEANS TO AN END, BECAUSE HUMANS ARE AN END IN THEMSELVES, INTRINSICALLY GOOD, and if one human being is preyed upon, this is disrupting their agency, their right as an "end in themselves" not a "mean"
>>79554035
So your main complaint against God is the definition of it? I'm don't disagree with you for the most part, but what I am claiming is that my God, is exclusive to truth. A Christian God cannot coexists with the Islamic one as they are contradictory in their nature.
>>79554382
>but the myth of him, is what I believe is metaphorical
why> what makes you think so?
>We do, in a way, but I'd argue that morality against rape does not exist in those tribal cases because they have not achieved a civilization that is able to do away with rape yet
that's impossible under the framework of moral laws. They have always existed. Undiscovered yes, but still existing. A really primitive tribe may not have discovered the laws of gravity and the equations that describe it, but that doesn't mean an apple on a tree won't fall to the ground.
>>79554876
LOLOL
because i believe SPIRITUALITY IS BIOLOGICAL, too
you must be a christfag, because you seem to have an aversion to anything with a biological basis. Biology is the study of life, something being based in biology just means its based in life and as life is material, must have a material component to it.
On a related note what do you think of The Order of the Rosy Cross?
I've been doing a lot of research on them lately. Borrows a lot from gnosticism
>>79555002
>because the displeasure of the girl, the lack of consent to an assumedly innocent child who does not likely enjoy being raped by 2 or 10 old dudes, is the first and only component that needs be examined
Yeah, I agree with you. I don't believe in consequential morality. The guy I was talking to seems to though.
> HUMAN BEINGS (or any rational agents
I am not familiar with Kant, but iirc, his main point was that human's rationality is what allows us to have morality. My issue with this is that our rationality seems to God given. The assumption that we have rational minds to interpret a rational universe that began from a spontaneous reaction of time,chance and matter is a bit dubious.
>>79543753
Who else feel spirituality in music? No not that garbage marketed to religious wackos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56AD7Cv29cU
>>79555193
You're on the road to nihilism friend
Not a good road to be on, i'd recommend doing some meditation and getting in touch with nature. As good as technology seems and makes life, it is ultimately of the devil and will convince you that you are nothing and life is meaningless
>>79543753
>spiritual but not religious
Europe is long dead.
>>79543753
I have adopted the local african animist spiritual path and I am white.
Am i a degenerate?
The current pope is making it extremely hard for me to stay Catholic
I'm not going to be an atheist but I can't be part of an institution that marries Marxism with religion
>>79554614
screencap them i guess
>>79555614
because we posess rationality does not mean we are fully rational. we just have rationality like an arm, a leg, or any other appendage that needs exercise
and i dont think the universe is holy rational, i think it is chaos within rules, both order and disorder.
i dont necessarily believe in an intervening or benevolent god, but im not opposed to a creator
why wouldnt a creator of such power not be able to create chaos as well as order? because chaos might, just might, even be necessary to facilitate progress and interatctions and reactions that then then cause some semblance of order.
i dunno, im sounding hokey right now.
i cant dissuade you in the respect that rationality is god given, it may or may not be, but humans are certainly not entirely rational, and its feasible to think we are even more irrational, led by primal impulses and emotions, more so than cold logic.
>>79555592
take what ya like from em, what you can get from em, but then move on.
they are not the be-all-end-all
>>79555971
If this is the Pope that makes you quit the Church than just go now and peace be with you.
The hard times haven't even begun yet. It starts with fire followed by plague.
>>79543753
>I know it's just a meme
>the damage control
Nowadays you need to give explanation when you tell people you don't devote your life to the magical fairy in the sky that hasn't yet been proven to exist and who's existence is backed up by memes with neckbeards.
Christianity is literally the cuck religion and shitslam should not even be mentioned, you faggots like the first because it condemns degeneracy and secretly kind of like the second because it puts women in their place, most of you don't believe in the magical bullshit because you know it's ridiculous and not proven yet to be real so cut the bullshit already, you're probably not going to float forever on clouds after you die just because you were a beta all your life.
>who spiritual but not religious
Every 12 year old girl in a beatles t-shirt
>>79555710
I prefer this personally
https://youtu.be/WHff3N98hRk
>>79555822
i oscillate between nihilism and transcendance everyday, as well as meditate every day, mi amigo
and technology is just a tool, not the devil, but like a hammer, it can build or kill, just depends how and how much you use it.
interesting you say "get in touch with nature" because i was arguing that spirituality, guilt, and emotions, ARE natural. i think we may agree a bit more than we let on, just use different words. peace and love, friend
>>79556084
We are able to describe the universe with the laws of physics. To me that would imply some degree of order which you would not expect taking in consideration on how the universe began. And sure chaos can be in this too.
>led by primal impulses and emotions, more so than cold logic.
the fact that we can interpret reality into a set of mathematical equations, to me at least, would show that we are pretty rational. And if we aren't, then the whole Kant thing you brought up would be self defeating.
>all these filthy heathens in this thread
>>79556330
I love traditional also, but Metal has a special hold on me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-93wA_Q3kY
Ideje már bujdosásimnak,
Eljött már távozásomnak.
Bús-szomorú utazásomnak,
Fájdalmas és nehéz búcsúzásomnak.
Angyalodat én Istenem,
Küldjed hogy kísérjen engem!
Hosszú utamban vezéreljen,
Minden ártótól, gonosztól megmentsen!
Az messzi ismeretlenbe megyek.
Véletek többet már nem lészek,
Ha újra nem is láthat szemetek,
Azért rólam el ne feledkezzetek!
Sorsom akármerre mégyen,
Rólatok el nem felejtkezem,
Minden járáson-kelésen
Véletek lesz majd emlékezetem!
Hajnalnak fénye, vezess az úton,
Mély, sötét éjszakán, láng, vigyél át!
Szél és felhők, távoli erdők,
Föld takarja el bús lábam nyomát.
"Feljött a nap tisztulásra,
indulni kell más tájra.
Pázsit fogja a nyomomot,
nem járom udvarinkot.
Mikor megyek hazafelé,
nyílik az ég kétfelé.
Ragyognak rám csillagok,
mer' tudják, árva vagyok."
>>79556860
Whoops, posted wrong lyrics.
Éjszaka Lángja, Hû fiad gyámja,
Hej, maga Táltos Hold-Anya,
Útra ha lépünk, míg hazaérünk
Kísérd a léptünk, vezess haza.
Új hold, éji dal, lángot szél kavar,
erdõk fák nesze, virág éneke,
tûzbõl tûz leszek, csillagfényt veszek
szólítom magát Táltos Hold-Anyát.
Ukko kultainen kuningas,
hopiainen hallitsija,
ota kultainen kurikka,
eli vaskinen vasara.
Rögbõl rög legyen, tavon, völgy-hegyen
holdfény süssön át, hozzon éjszakát,
ringasson ma el, míg Õ énekel,
s dalra lesz a dal éji szélvihar.
Jolla korvet kolkuttelet,
salot synkät sylkyttelet,
yhtenä kesäisnä yönä,
ehtooyönä ensimmäisnä!
Éjszaka Lángja, Hû fiad gyámja,
Hej, maga Táltos Hold-Anya,
Útra ha lépünk, míg hazaérünk
Kísérd a léptünk, vezess haza.
Tûzre tûzkerék, küzd, viaskodék,
mint a gondolat, úgy nyergel lovat,
ûzi jégesõt, zöld vetést verõt,
Hajtja bõsz telet, hoz Ígéretet.
Tûzre tûzkerék, küzd, viaskodék,
mint a gondolat, úgy nyergel lovat,
ûzi jégesõt, zöld vetést verõt,
Hajtja bõsz telet, hoz Ígéretet.
Tûzre tûzkerék, küzd, viaskodék,
mint a gondolat, úgy nyergel lovat,
ûzi jégesõt, zöld vetést verõt,
Hajtja bõsz telet, hoz Ígéretet.
Hoz Ígéretet, sorsot, életet,
gyógyírt seb, ha fáj, enyhülést talál,
forrást szomjazó, hûs vizet adó,
Hej, tavasz maga a Táltos Hold-Anya.
Käyös korvet kolkutellen,
syrjävieret sylkytellen;
aja vilja vieremille,
Aukeemmille ahoille.
Éjszaka Lángja, Hû fiad gyámja,
Hej, maga Táltos Hold-Anya,
Útra ha lépünk, míg hazaérünk
Kísérd a léptünk, vezess haza.
Éjszaka Lángja, Hû fiad gyámja,
Hej, maga Táltos Hold-Anya,
Útra ha lépünk, míg hazaérünk
Kísérd a léptünk, vezess haza.
>>79556554
youre misunderstanding me a bit
rationality is the everyday conquering of the irrational, we have to fight off impulses to punch, to scream, to rape (extreme example, i know)
but our biological needs to reproduce, to be safe, to eat are rational in their purpose, but sort of ovverride our day to day thought process
this is why you can get cranky when hungry
kant isnt saying we are 100% rational, but that we are capable of rationality, capable of logic.
this is a much different thing
and the laws of physics certainly do include chaos and destruction, or else nothing would happen
you say "we can interpret reality into mathematical equations" but that abilitty doesnt mean that we always do
even if you worship christ and believe in being kind to everyone, you still might flip someone off on the road because of anger, i.e. an emotion that, while rational in its initial, primordial purpose (anger was very useful for hunting, for protecting, etc.) it no longer makes as much sense to act on this impulse in civilized society, which is why it is considered irrational
>>79556349
Technology isn't the devil but it replacing natural order is OF the devil. I do believe that a spiritual dimension(s) exists that we cannot see. The pinnacle of what we call technology (what I believe to be a continuation of Masonic sciences) will eventually be total replacement by so-called sentient machines. I believe this to be of a sinister nature, as God is the natural order, his "thinking" is laws of nature and physical existance. By trying to pervert or replace that I believe is an act of evil that will sever aNY remaining spiritual ties we have left to the God head. I also believe that the God many in mainstream religion worship is actually the false god or Demiurge. Luciferian beings wish to prevent this artificial singularity with machines while satanic beings are encouraging it. Idk if this makes aNY sense or not. Many scholars and theologians of the late medieval period who had a vastly superior understanding of the spiritual world than we do recognized that a "gateway" was opening upon mankind in their time, that our awareness would be increased but would also be more suceptible to being deceived by the non natural adversarial spirit (Satan)
>>79543753
Fag
>>79557031
I suppose so. When I was using the word rations', I was referring to how the universe could be understood.
Whether we always exhibit rationality or not, doesn't necessarily show that it is not God given.
Anyways, we got to this point of the discussion on the topic of morality. What is your position on this?
>>79557450
actually that made total sense to me, I am screencapping that analysis. I am well versed with the Masonic and Luciferians, thanks anon.
gotta head out! its been a pleasure, peace and love
>>79547246
>You are your brain
You're not.
>Inb4 prove it
I can prove it to myself, but so far the only way to prove it to someone else is that someone else actually learning how to prove it to himself.
It's just the way it is. Either we're not limited to our brain or our brain can transgress the boundaries of time and space.
>>79557643
i have to run, anon, much unfortuantely.
if you actually care to know, look at my other posts on this, i covered it a lot in this thread.
wish i could argue with ya more, but I believe its biological in its basis, and cultural in the external
we are social beings that require trust and support to exist and thrive (could very well be the doing of god) but morality is relative in how its laws pop up in cultures
in short, the aztecs killed people as sacrifice. bad, but they were doing so to keep the sun in the sky and have plentiful harvests, so as long as they truthfully believed that as their view of the world was limited, its easy to see this may be viewed as rationally
but the aztecs have died out
why?
because a culture that promotes violence and war is less likely to survive than a culture that promotes altruism
if moral relativism was true, if murder, rape, and theft were permitted, humans would never have gotten far into our existence
wish i could say more
PEACE AND LOVE, ANON
sending you blessings
>>79557872
weuueeowowueueowhoa
to heady for me
get it, brainiac?
YOU, your identity
is your body and brain
composed of many different atoms and molecules constantly shifting, and we can look backwards and forewards, but it is still YOU
dont be a pseudo profound biatch
>>79557872
I remember when I was ten years old and living this kind of innocence.
>>79558257
right? someone just watched the matrix
>>79558113
This is a dangerous way of thinking
>>79558113
Just as I said.
Either our brain can do things which are impossible according to our current understanding of the universe or we are not our brain.
You can predict the future or change it to some extent. You can read other people's thoughts. How? Nigguh I only know it can be done. If I knew an actual method for this shit I wouldn't be living in a shack.
>>79543753
I would call myself that. I think the Abrahamic religions are all shite, but still believe in a higher presence. I've leaned towards Nordic Paganism for a while now.
>>79558257
>stephanmolyneux.png
>>79543753
I shall go to Valhalla when odin sees fit I should die in battle, until then my valknut shall protect me.
>>79558767
You should look into perennialism
It's the belief that all religions are right to some extant, but none have it 100% correct
Also, I wouldn't dismiss the Abrahamic religions so easily. Modern day versions of them pale in comparison to what they once were. I was raised Christian, then abandoned my belief when I was in high school/college, but have somewhat found it again (although now it is very different) through some spiritual experiences I've had meditating and also reading a lot of old manuscripts and different translations of the Bible. I understand most of religion is just to keep the dumb masses in line but there are some pretty profound works by Christian scholars of the late medieval period and renaissance
pic related is just a cool picture, I haven't actually read it so it could be shit for all I know
>>79555193
>not knowing what duelism is
>not knowing your pseudo intellectual arguments have already been answered by Agustine and Aquinas
Kek next thing you'll tell me you're a Scientiest and like Sam Harris believe that morality and philosophy in general can be reduced to the scientific method.
Learn your limits you poor child. Science is great for the physical world but the metaphysical world is beyond its grasp
t. Engineer
>>79559187
I would also recommend looking into gnosticism as it explains the "God" that many people worship is actually the demiurge, a false god mirror image of the real True One God (that is not a man with a beard on a white puffy cloud) but is a 7th dimensional (4th dimension is time, 5th dimension is different timelines, 6th is all possiblilites, and 7th is the summation of everything that is, was, could be, or would have been) being trying to also figure out who he/she/it is by living billions of experiences as mortals on Earth. I'm not very good at explaining it though
>>79559433
>metaphysical world is beyond its grasp
And how does blind faith help in this case?
>>79559133
What is Valhalla but another circle of hell?
>>79543753
Spirit moves through all things. Science has failed our mother earth.
>>79559433
Well said, our physical and spiritual worlds are separate but exist on top of each other at the same time. "As above, so below". Just like a baby born into the physical world, a new initiate into the metaphysical needs time and guidance to grow and understand. Unfortunately they think we are being pseudo-intellectual. In a truly chaotic world, would patterns even exist? Why were men 2000+ years ago able to predict the 'movement' of the cosmos? Because there is an order to the universe, and again "As above, so below" there is an order within all of us. I think a big problem with how science is taught today is that we are merely given the formulas, processes, etc, but never explained the concepts or reasons behind them. There is a reason why men who studied physics and geometry a long time ago referred to it as Heavenly Mathematics or Sacred Geometry, because they were able to conceptualize what Plato called "the perfect forms" and apply it to the real world through art, architecture, medicine, etc.
t. also an engineer
>>79543753
>God and soul and such is definitely real.
You're like a man child who still believes in ghosts
>>79559951
Blind faith is useless except to the unwashed masses
>>79559951
Faith and reason. One complements the other and they can't contradict. It's the exact opossite of blind faith.
Physics and metaphysics are not mutually exclusive but they are separate fields of study. Take pic related for example.
>The mainstream religions (cuckstainity, pisslam, etc.) are all wrong
Not an argument.
>>79558767
>Nordic Paganism
Why do retards think paganism is a better alternative to Abrahamic religions? I think that all religions are shit but Abrahamic and monotheistic religions are more rationally coherent than paganism
>>79560631
Imagine being born blind, and having people try to explain a painting by Rembrandt. Or being born deaf and trying to understand the music of Mozart.
Your senses lie to you. Just because something is not perceivable doesn't make it a figment of imagination.
http://youtu.be/Z78_rAg4Ldg
This is you.
>>79560411
I love how engineering is the last hold of traditional tbought. I have a few theories as to why this is but suffice to say that it is a unique marvel that engineers in general hold strong to clasical though almost untouched by modernism.
I wonder if the profession makes people think like this or if the people who already think like this are attracted to the profession.
>>79547885
Even better goy, down with religion, down with oppression! HAIL MARX!
>>79561001
>Unicorns are also not perceivable, Just because something is not perceivable doesn't make it a figment of imagination.
Kill urself pls
>>79561318
>freemasons are vaguely ideological, yet cling to imagery of a particular manual occupation almost no freemason actually works in
>engineering last bastion of respecting reality and real data because you cannot guess when you build a suspension bridge
>freemasons have those tools because this has happened before and it reminds them to stay connected to reality
Religion is complicated for me. One one hand, I feel that God is real
But on the other I don't think he does
Its to the point when people ask me about my religion I just end up saying I don't know
>>79561318
I think it is definitely the latter. I met with a VP of one of the top engineering firms in the world yesterday. He specializes in complex bridges and he told me he goes to church every Sunday. We didn't get into a deep conversation about it but I just found it interesting that this guy, who was probably smarter than anybody I've ever met in my life, was religious. It sort of harkens back to the time when theologians were also well versed in mathematics and engineering like the stereotypical "Renaissance men"
>>79561733
Nice straw man
>>79546010
Did a Russian just post bodhidarma? Now I've seen everything.
>>79562235
How that a strawman?
I said that i believe in unicorns even though i can't perceive them
>>79562477
there are a lot of arguments against materialism
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism#Criticism_and_alternatives
>>79562799
so we're talking about materialism now
why are you changing the subject?
>>79562477
It's a straw man argument because your conflating the -fact- that there are forces outside of our human perception with a mythological beast.
If you really believe in unicorns then good for you, unfortunately, no scholars have been researching the existence of them for hundreds of years like they have been in regards to the metaphysical.
>>79563120
I also believe in the flying spaghetti monster!
>God and soul and such is definitely real
There is no evidence for any of these. This is just as retarded as "mainstream religions"
>>79562940
Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are results of material interactions.
You believe that the only things that exist are things that are perceivable. That's basically materialism.
>>79563257
Good for you, do you also believe in Russell's teapot?
>>79563413
>You believe that the only things that exist are things that are perceivable. That's basically materialism.
Kek. you are so philosophically illiterate
Being an empiricist doesn't make you a materialist
>>79563594
state your position then, the only thing you've brought to this discussion so far are as homs and strawman
>>79563756
>as homs and strawman
I don't need to argue with someone about god who doesn't even understand what empiricism or materialism are
>>79561204
Where's the part where radical muslamists barge in and start spraying the crowd with AKs?
>>79563889
>>You believe that the only things that exist are things that are perceivable
this is not an empirical worldview, that is a materialist one.
>>79543753
>whenever my superstitious bullshit tries to get organized it falls apart but imma just gonna believe anyway
the post.
>>79564068
Who said i'm a materist i can be an idealist and an empiricist you retard
>>79564126
You said this:You believe that the only things that exist are things that are perceivable. You are saying the things that are empirically unverifiable do not exist. This a materialist claim. And empirical one would say that's we cannot begin to know what is empirically unverifiable. Therefore, I assumed you were a materialist.
>>79563889
Apparently you do, because an empiricist only believes in what is perceivable by the senses. I've given you a perfect analogy of how things can still exist even when they are not perceived by human senses. So are you an empiricist that believes that the metaphysical is a possibility, thus agreeing with my initial point, or an empiricist that believes there is no metaphysical aspects to the universe and that they are only figments of imagination, making you a materialist?
>>79564337
Idealists can be empiricists too
>>79563924
Here it is!
https://youtu.be/csBMVYf9NXI?t=1m26s
>>79564459
If you are an idealist then you cant make this claim
>I believe that the only things that exist are things that are perceivable
>>79564437
You can be an empiricist and be a idealist instead of a materialist
Look up subjective idealism
>>79564613
Look up subjective idealism
>>79564550
Pretty good
>>79564737
I'm a bit confused by your position to be honest. You say you believe only in what you can sense but are also an idealist, which cannot be directly experienced. Would you mind elaborating?
>>79563320
Qbsrnce of evidrnce is not evidence of absence
>>79564790
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHwJs10aryc
does this sum up your position?
>>79543753
You've got it backwards. God, heaven and nirvana aren't real but christian/buddhist values will make your life infinitely better and are a direct path to happiness.
>>79566437
it's a joke btw don't take this too seriously, but aren't the assumptions you make in subjective idealism just as fantastical as a flying spaghetti monster.
>>79544495
But the universe is insignificantly large to small things
>>79546824
I just lift weights and run while saying my two made up power words in my head. "Fugis, Rundis" to me it means thunder and Mountain. I try to be as fast and instant as thunder yet as timeless and grounded as stone.
It helps me try to occupy an impossible place and clear my thoughts. Or I make up some other mental exercise like seeing how long I dare to walk with my eyes closed.
>>79566328
Absence of evidence despite exhaustive searches for evidence is in fact evidence for absence
>>79551883
3/4 on physiological
4/4 on safety
2/5 on belonging
1/4 on esteem
0/1 on self actualisation
feelsbad
>>79553289
>muh europhic kike
>>79567973
I think you're confusing sky daddy with God
A common mistake for atheists
>>79567973
this
t
h
i
s
fucking this
Throughout all of human knowledge, history, and every single bit of science there is
FUCKING ZERO
indication of anything supernatural, magic, spiritual
AT FUCKING ALL
We HAVE our proof that there is NO GOD
that there is NO MAGIC
that there is NOTHING SUPERNATURAL ANYWHERE AND NEVER HAS BEEN
WE HAVE SOLIDEST FUCKING PROOF 2016
>>79543753
Saying you are spiritual "but not religious" is the religious version of saying you are gender fluid.
You are not a special snow flake. You don't have any special unique enlightenment. You haven't found anything out that hasn't been found out.
There is nothing new under the sun.
Give you heart to Jesus Christ, as he is the King of Man. All other spiritual paths lead to the cross. In all your life you will find that good works and good intentions will never be enough and we all fall short of the glory of God.
Stop being a faggot who needs to be a special snowflake.
>>79570155
>>79567973
>trying to spot god
>is stuck in dual world
>god = freedom from duality
ayyyyy, nice fedoras bros
>>79570484
jesus christ = ra = krishna = the sun
>>79571006
incoherent babbling
the post
>>79571500
>pleb cant reach
>calls the other incoherent
thats better than burning us alive like back then for being "witches"
but the paradox is that god can't exist
because if he did, then he would be part of creation
if he doesnt exist tho, its inseparable from the creation
which means theres only mind, and perception of it
god isn't perceptionable rather the pure consciousness behind each perception
aka
the unified field that connects reality with eachother
camus, dawkins, nietzche are for edgy teens
deal with it
even science's husbando newton translated the emerald tablets that literally say "the all is mental"
>>79572504
>inb4 you resume my argument to a perceptionable point from which you argue with
>all i was saying is to stop looking at dual things and connecting to source of the whole
nigga you just god dreaming to be a nigga so dumb he dont even know he the dream of god dreaming to be a nigga so dumb he dont even know he the dream of a god dreaming to be a nigga so dumb he dont even know he the dream of a god
your soul is trapped in this loop m8
