With more jobs being done by AI and machinery, will there be a time when basic income is a necessity? It reeks of hippy bullshit to me, but the arguments are unusually compelling.
>>79337579
it will be but there is no need to worry about now maybe a 40 years from now
i mean why not at this point? who gives a fuck anymore?
>>79337579
even with AI and literally no jobs as we view them today humans will never exist in a post-surplus state as communists have always theorized. so, no
>>79337579
>With more jobs being done by AI and machinery, will there be a time when basic income is a necessity? It reeks of hippy bullshit to me, but the arguments are unusually compelling.
We already have 'basic income.' its called Welfare and its for niggers and white trash.
You want to live like a nigger?
>>79337921
once something loses value other things gain value infinitely
>>79337579
Gas chambers is not left or right. It's FORWARD.
>>79337579
>Basic income
If ALL taxes and ALL gibsmedat will end, yes.
>>79337579
>I'll be useless in the future, so the owners of the means of production will reward me for my lack of purpose
>>79337976
No I'm against it on principle, but it will probably be dubbed a "human right" by bleeding heart liberals pretty soon
>>79337579
Yes, yes, consume all the resources for free, Goyim.
See what happens.
>>79337579
Do you want us to die in a famine?
That would be consistent with your previous actions.
>>79337579
>voluntarily feeding parasites
Nature tells us this is a really bad idea.
>>79338176
Basic income is a gibsmedat. Plus other forms of income would have to be taxed in order to pay for it.
>giving everyone free money
>expecting them to use it properly
what could possibly go wrong?
>>79337579
>universal basic income is not left or right
except for the part where it's extremely leftist
>>79339376
kek senpai
>>79337579
This will actually happen fairly soon
Of course not for 8 billion people, not nearly enough resources for that
A purge will come first
>>79337579
Fuck off with this bullshit. I will not allow my tax money to go to funding unemployed niggers and NEETs. Killl yourselves.
If you can't find a job then that's your fault for not going into STEM and actually being the ones programming AI and engineering the machinery of the future.
>>79339440
>This will actually happen fairly soon
>A purge will come first
confirmed for 12 years old
It's inevitable. Otherwise war will tear this civilization apart. There is unrest brewing already.
>>79339282
Reddit is not forward or right, it is down the hall and to the LEFT
basic income would 100% destroy whatever jobs you think people still do
getting something for nothing is ALWAYS a better deal even if it's not a lot
basically it would fuck everything up worse than a dug-in welfare state already does
>>79339622
You can barely call what people do nowadays """""""""""""""jobs"""""""""""""""
>>79339376
Actually the idea comes from the most prominent conservative economists of the 20th century.
Hayek and Friedman.
You are clueless.
>>79339622
But we need a massive population explosion, followed by a massive die-out.
It's the only way.
Basic Income is great. Automate everything. Anyone against it is either a wagecuck or a bitter CEO. Everyone will be able to relax and enjoy themselves, free of hard labour.
>>79339622
If a job can be automated, it should be and it will be
Any system that isn't meritocratic at this point is shit. Basic Income is fine provided it has a sunset in place to end after five years perhaps ten. If it's used as a means to dismantle the multiple welfare programs while accomplishing that aim then yes. They could also leave WIC and Food Stamps in place and cut everything else including social security/disability.
>>79339807
>(((Friedman)))
>>79339791
This. The amount of actual work needed to keep society ticking is very small. Things like advertising and marketing are completely and utterly pointless, they add nothing. Ramp up automation and scientific funding.
>>79339828
>everyone
No.
>>79339584
Was Hayek leftist? The idea originated from conservative economists.
It's fucking retarded.
>hand out money that is supposed to supply enough for people to prive basic needs for themselves
>chunk of society stops working and goes full NEET
>low supply of workers, prices rise
>"basic income" no longer enough to provide basic needs like before
>raise taxes
>rinse and repeat until bankruptcy
>>79339807
Trusting The Ivy League.
The bigger the ivy, the bigger the rats!
>>79339622
>basic income would 100% destroy whatever jobs you think people still do
You should read some post-scarcity sci fi novels. It's an interesting subject.
We're not ready for it. It's too highly politicized. Look at the replies in this thread as an example.
But mark my words, it's coming. We won't have any choice in the matter.
>>79339852
Actually Hayek though of it first and was more of an advocate:
"I have always said that I am in favor of a minimum income for every person in the country"
The ultimate entitlement to end all entitlements and shrink the bureaucracy of the bloated nanny state.
>>79339807
Ah yes, (((friedman))), a noted """conservative"""
>>79340055
t. reddit futurologist
>>79339622
>basic income would 100% destroy whatever jobs you think people still do
Actually it creates more aggregate demand in an economy.
It's far superior to the bloated welfare state. Why do you think conservative economists like Hayek supported a guaranteed basic income?
>>79340086
If everyone had it, it would lose value.
Yes, let's devalue our currency.
We've already devalued human life!
>>79337579
>taxing future generations to pay for you to be a lazy piece of shit your entire life
This destroys the future.
>>79339807
Friedman was wrong. Basic income is worse than the welfare state. Vouchers are still the way to go.
>>79340088
Hayek.
>>79339904
You want to work? Good on you. Meanwhile we'll plow on with automation and let everyone have leisure time.
If there are still jobs which can't be automated in the short term, the burden can be shared by all. Rather than working 40 hours a week, we could work perhaps one day a week for a mere few hours. Even without any more automation the working week could easily be reduced, it's just lengthened to increase corporate profit margins..
>>79339506
> as if todays world isnt the most civil society ever accomplished by mankind
confirmed for 12 years old
>>79339807
That's a misrepresentation of Friedman's negative income tax proposal. Moreover, the amount a person would receive as a tax credit under such a proposal would not be anything close to what UBI advocates want.
>>79337579
>>79337579
>the arguments are unusually compelling
Not really. The idea of telling your boss to go fuck himself is though. People just never think this shit through. Most people don't like their jobs or their bosses. Who wouldn't want to sit around and watch TV and play on the computer all day instead of work?
>>79340269
The proposal by conservatives was always to abolish all other forms of welfare and replace with the UBI.
Why don't you read about why the most prominent conservative economists of the 20th century supported it?
You can start with Hayek's "Road to Serfdom"
>>79337579
I hope so, I'd love not to work in my life.
>>79340657
NEETs are the future of mankind.
>>79340642
And then get rid of the UBI?
Brilliant!
Yes, yes, let's abolish all entitlements and replace it with a single massive entitlement, then... poof!
>>79340528
kek you cheeky fuck
>>79337579
Capitalism will fall to it's own impossibility just like communism did in the 90's
This is mainly due to the fact that growth economy is unsustainable both economically and environmentally. World has finite resources and climate change is a real issue. Who will buy the products when unemployment reaches 30%? 50%? 70%? due to automation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE
Basic income and 4-6 hour workdays will become normal if we want to go forward and keep as many people working and earning as possible. But the basic income must be just enough to get you by to keep people motivated to find work or start a business.
>>79337579
Basic income, like welfare, will probably work for a while.
There will still be working class service men and technicians who maintain the robots and machines who will maybe get better pay than just basic.
There will be some puppet master types who still run the exchanges of goods and any money that is traded.
The dystopia come in when either people breed too many more mouths to feed or some psychopath at the top decides to create a kill bot army and cuts off basic income for X place that is in the way of future development.
But, for a while, yeah it will sort of work like welfare.
>>79337579
Definitely, but if we try to implement it now society will fall before autonomy can come into existence
>>79340975
>capitalism will fail (ALLEGEDLY)
>communism has already failed
>I GOT IT LETS JUST MIX THEM TOGETHER PERFECT
>>79340440
Misrepresenting the NIT, how so?
Let's see what Friedman himself said about the NIT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM
"They would be far better off if we just gave them the money and let them spend it."
>>79341020
> "ive never heard of population decreasing in developed nations"
>>79340247
>Conservative economists
>Focusing on increasing aggregate demand
You can call him a conservative if you want, but that's a left viewpoint.
>>79341319
Capitalism is inherently contradictory. It will fall under its own weight as automation takes off, as feudalism fell when industrialisation took off.
>>79340975
Basic income will never become normal. It would completely devalue money, leading to the abandonment of the whole concept and replacement by a new "money" system, starting the cycle anew. In essence, basic income would destroy itself.
>>79341321
>Let's just give them the money.
>Federal Reserve is an interest-based currency.
>???
>Profit!
>>79337579
>literally free shit for no effort
>compelling arguments
Sounds like you're actually a hippy faggot trying to be cool
>AIs do jobs now so lets pretend scarcity doesnt exist
>>79337579
well i hope by the time everything is automated humanity should have long abandoned the monetary system.
>>79341430
I don't think decreasing bureaucracy or government is a left viewpoint. Also, Hayek and Friedman understood the reality of modern economies and automation but wanted to preserve free markets. The UBI is a way of doing that.
>>79338811
>Something someone else has to provide you is a human right.
I will never understand liberal """"""""""thinking""""""""""
>>79339828
>enough money to keep you from starving will mean everyone in the world will just watch TV all day
>humans don't have an internal drive to better themselves and help society
Obviosly these anti-badic incomers are just wanna be NEETS that would feel too ashamed if they didnt do something.
>>79341557
It would actually decrease government spending, less bureaucracy.
Tax cuts as a form of economic stimulus is not a new idea, it began with Reagan. The UBI is a subsidy that comes in the form of a Negative Income Tax.
I'm for free money, if the amount is based on the results of a DNA test.
We have to randomize it somehow.
Diversity is our strength!
>>79341899
By killing people, it would actually RAISE the life expectancies!
I'm an intellectual!
>>79341676
We are not gonna be trading goats, Ahmed.
>>79337579
Machinest, here. AI will never be able to do my job. Ever.
>>79341889
Sure some people want to help others, and that's fine. Not everyone cares about helping society or self-improving though. The point is, given basic income, everyone could pursue their own desires, without worrying about employment and housing, and the other insecurities people have today.
>>79341415
Expected rate of decrease? I should not have had to call you out on this point.
You have heard of mass shootings.
You have heard of folks named Hitler, Stalin, Mao.
So mass killing for convenience is not something new to your mind. Now apply that to future technology theories.
>>79341689
expensive and cancerous bureaucracy, huge waiting lines and annoyance are the only things stopping a lot of people from getting welfare and sitting back at life, instead of searching for work. If they get a fat deposit every month without having to move a finger, imagine how many NEETs that would create.
>>79337579
C O M M U N I S M
O M M U N I S M C
M M U N I S M C O
M U N I S M C O M
U N I S M C O M M
N I S M C O M M U
I S M C O M M U N
S M C O M M U N I
M C O M M U N I S
>basic income
Just more buzzwords.
>>79342192
Possibly. In which case people would re-train as machinists to help you and reduce your working week.
>>79342253
Communists glorify work and labour. A lot of basic income people are very "anti-work" and quite hopeful for the future.
>>79342192
Yes it will. Don't be stupid.
AI will be smarter than the smartest human in 50 years without a doubt.
>>79342103
More money is spent on getting the money to people, making sure they meet every requirement and that they use it the "correct" way than actually makes it to people's pockets. Trashing the government apparatus would massively reduce spending to the point where the money being handed out could be doubled and you'd still save enormously compared to how much you spend now. Of course, being an extremist ideologue is more fun. Perfect is the enemy of good.
>>79337579
could have basic income
OR
people could not give free money to the relatively well off in the first world and invest in improving the 2nd/3rd world via trade there. Can you see what additional problems overpopulation has beyond physical living space and resource consumption? (the go-to's "debunking" it)
It's absolutely batshit insane to have both open borders and free handouts. Not because I'm a meany, but because it focuses the economy into one market place of lavish consumerism.
>>79337921
>never
Only stupid people say never.
There is already 5 separate entities putting multiple billions in to space mining.
That includes 2 separate governments.
There has been a module that spent 3 months up in space to test out some ideas. (one from probably the most well known space mining company, Planetary Resources)
With their current roadmap, they will be sending out scout satellites in 5-10 years to look for the best asteroids to mine.
Decade after, the miners will be launched.
I talked to one of the guys dealing with said mined material, suggesting ideas such as a massive solar smelter that spins and separates the materials out in to cylinders. Then it is just a case of slicing them off.
In 100 years, humans will 100% be post-scarcity society.
There are no ifs, buts.
Well, there is one major if, whether we will survive or power-hungry fucktards will nuke us to oblivion.
But beside that, or some freak of nature, nothing will stop it.
in 50 years, we sill start to see the markets dying for resources, mainly energy and useful metals for computing and construction. (gold, platinum, steel and the like)
But even outside of that, right now, we could easily feed 10 billion humans if we created an industrial scale aquaponics farm with the same square footage of Wales, more-or-less.
Obviously it won't be IN Wales, but I mean sky-scraper aquaponics farms in all major cities.
Traditional farming is killing the planet with massive greenhouse gasses.
It is one of the biggest causes next to construction industries and energy.
Traditional farming is just fucking awful. Both for work and yields.
You can even put a fucking TREE in aquaponics farms. Absolute madman.
Food is one of the biggest reasons war and conflict exist in this world.
In fact, it is basically THE reason. Remove food from anywhere and society dies so hard.
Having food covered for everyone would massively improve global relations so we can finally evolve as a species.
>>79337579
that already exists
>its called welfare
>>79342103
Let's dumb it down for you:
Would you rather the government cut taxes and abolish Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, and Food Stamps, or would you rather they increase taxes and keep entitlements?
>>79341689
>I don't think decreasing bureaucracy or government is a left viewpoint
you should go outside some time
>Also, Hayek and Friedman understood the reality of modern economies and automation but wanted to preserve free markets. The UBI is a way of doing that.
>Actually it creates more aggregate demand in an economy.
how does it do this if there is no incentive to work?
at least with welfare there are (minor) requirements to get gibsmedats
with basic income those requirements are gone and everyone gets money for nothing
the need to work is gone, and the only demand to be found would be transitional to the period where there are literally no jobs left to do
you can guess how well such a period would turn out for people depending on when you adopt basic income vs. how automated everything is at the time
and ALL of this ignores effects inflation would have on that period, or the economy afterward (why have money at all if everyone gets it for nothing, etc)
>>79342424
>Communists glorify work and labour. A lot of basic income people are very "anti-work" and quite hopeful for the future.
No. That's what they have made you delusionally think. They glorify work and labour to enact communism. Objectively, no one, ever, in the history of communism, ever, has suggested communism because they want to work more. It's always been about working less.
Basic Income is literally just another in a long line of buzzword the underground marxists are using in their subversion tactics to get people to embrace communism.
It's delusional and retarded.
>>79342551
>>79342707
>In 100 years, humans will 100% be post-scarcity society.
humanity will never be post-scarcity because we will create ways to capitalize on scarce products and therefore, profit
we will invent scarcity if we have to
>>79337579
>(((forward)))
>(((progress)))
>(((current year)))
>>79340417
That is definitely not at all what I said, but all right.
>>79342471
>Don't be stupid.
You don't be stupid. Since the beginning of time, Humans have built machines and used tools to help them increase efficiency for production. A.I. is no different. It is a machine. It does not have a soul. It is not human. It will do calculations, yes. "Guess" things by observing patterns in data. A.I. will never be as creative or intelligent as a human being.
Don't get me wrong. Science and Technology is a fantastic and wonderful thing and we should continue progress, but stop worshiping it like some false idol that will someday somehow eclipse the human intellect.
Don't be stupid.
>>79342823
I actually want to end a massive swath of the government apparatus, as I've said. Nothing about my proposal is about "everyone being treated equally," in fact people would be very much unequal. I have not even mentioned gun control which I'm heavily against. You are tilting at windmills.
>>79342238
Facts where?
Fact is, the strongest economies and workforces on the planet have MASSIVE welfare states.
Welfare allows self-regulation of the job sector because people can easily leave shitty jobs and move to others.
It also allows entrepreneurs to easily grow their businesses. (said countries have the most per capita)
It also improves peoples health, relationships and lowers crime overall because people don't need to turn to it JUST to feed themselves and possibly family.
The people that sit around doing nothing all day erry day are a minority. An extremely small minority.
I don't really agree with a full UBI scheme though.
I only agree with guaranteed income.
IE, if your income is below a threshold, you get said income.
This is the ones done in Nordic countries.
It is more sensible and considerably cheaper to operate in terms of finances.
Trying to figure out how much money a person has to spend is open to abuse because people can lie their asses off.
Using the cost of living in a region as a baseline is about the only realistic method you can use.
>>79337579
Unconditional basic income is just welfare.
Already welfare becomes a quid pro quo for your rights. Eg: be looking for a job or no welfare, be drug tested or no welfare etc. The Roman Dole will just make everyone dependent on the state.
>>79343310
Portugoon.
>>79343372
What the fuck happened to my post?
Jesus christ.
>>79342707
post-scarcity is a non-sensical concept, desire is infinite.
think about meat. we can probably provide meat to every single person in this planet, but how good is that meat? As soon as we have easy access to something, we'll demand higher quality of it, and we'll have to pay a higher price for it. This applies to everything from cars, to food, to movies all the way to sex.
There is no debate UBI will be needed in the future. I'm a common sense libertarian and even I acknowledge that we are going to have to come to terms with this.
>>79337579
I am super stoked for basic income
>>79343522
That already happens.
We already have groups of meat production.
Shitty off-the-bone meat, cheaper cuts, fuller cuts, premium-raising methods, cheap raising methods, factory farm tier, etc.
But that has nothing to do with anything really.
The point is when humans finally get out in to space and mining all those billions of rocks in the asteroid belt, we won't HAVE any limits.
Not on an individual scale, at least.
Even 1% of the asteroid belt would improve everyones lives by quite a margin.
Human scale our appetites for growth will expand. We will want to create habitats in space to support the billions more people
Start sending ships to other star systems in 200-300 years time (we could do it right now, but money is an obvious issue)
We will maybe try collapse Jupiter to a new star and create a dyson sphere around it.
Move Titan in to near-Earth orbit, maybe Europa and some other planets too.
Then we will build them. We will build The Net.
A massive net of carbon fibers and capture the quintillions of rocks in the oort cloud.
We will dyson sphere the whole Solar System.
Then the Magog will come.
I'd be in favour even now of a guaranteed $250 dollars for every Canadian citizen a month. It's not enough to survive on but would be great for students and seniors. CEOs hold their money. Dispersing it this way sends that money straight into the market rather than it being hoarded.
>>79343728
>common sense libertarian
Now there's an oxymoron.
YAY SERFDOM
THE ELITE WILL BE BENEVOLENT MASTERS BECAUSE THEY ARE GENERALLY NICE PEOPLE
>>79343452
Cool then. Hope we all enjoy wasting half the budget to maintain a massive government bureaucracy just so we can get a tiny amount of taxpayer's money into poor people's hands as we do now.
>>79344248
I won't try to understand you because I consider it pointless to think anything over 3 generations ahead.
the world would very likely be far better off not giving out handouts
t. autistbux maximus
>>79344961
Same here desu.
I just like imagining how humanity will probably not get out and do anything because we'd rather nuke ourselves over who has the most balls to deal with the middle east.
WW3 soon
>>79337579
this is just communism lite.
labor will simply move to what robots cant do and thats a whole lot of shit for a very long time.
>>79337579
google.com/search?q=comparative+advantage
>I think, almost a symptom of our state today. It's an impossible dream, the dream that capitalism itself can work in a socialist way. The idea is that this way you solve the problem of unemployment, you solve the problem of consumerism, because by giving money to the people there will be enough demand on the market to prevent crisis, and so on and so on.
>Here, the choice to work or not would be a real choice. The problem is that if you try to locate this proposal in a classic Marxist perspective, it is crazy. We will have a narrow productive core of old fashioned workers and capitalists, and basically the large majority of society exploits them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFti1SbC3pg
Work or starve. No laziness.
>>79337579
UBI is the epitome of r-selection and r-strategists should be dragged into the street and summarily shot.
>>79347278
>and so on
>>79337579
Your leftist "fair wage" bullshit is the very reason automation is becoming so prominent.
>>79347278
Both Labor (Joe the Plumber) and Capital (the Koch brothers) is exploitatied by a Basic Income.
>>79347278
The former middle classes will go apeshit without employment. The elites will want to prevent that, and if they believe there is something they can do to keep themselves in the position they are currently in, they will at least try to do so. Marxists like Zizek want the opposite to happen. They _want_ all of the other classes to rage against the capitalists and cause unrest.
>>79337579
Basic income is great, perhaps necessary, given the next singularity and extreme automation. It'll be socialism for the poor and capitalism for the rich, the way it should be.
>>79337579
Population reduction sounds more compelling. We don't need so many of you useless niggers running around anymore.
>>79347278
Should I take Zizek seriously?
People like doing things and being productive, they don't like wage slavery. If we can give people basic needs, why should we force people to work?
>>79337579
>get paid for doing nothing
>more people do nothing
>>79340086
>The ultimate entitlement to end all entitlements and shrink the bureaucracy of the bloated nanny state.
If that's true, then it will never happen. BDG must continue to grow.
>>79337579
The profit from the automation of industries needs to be put into a program to pay for a basic wage.
But that will never happen.
>>79339376
No, it's actually not leftist in the slightest. It involves coercing people into providing free stuff to people. Leftism refers to freedom and non-authoritarianism and is therefore opposed to such ideas.
And no, SJWs and democrats are not leftists.
>>79337579
Eventually, but it is nowhere near the time to do so
>>79344248
>Implying humanity doesn't self destruct or die out due to predatory A.I
>Implying something unexpected in nature doesn't wipe out humanity
>Implying someone doesn't accidentally screw us over and obliterate humanity
>Implying...
>>79351928
The only definition of Left vs right that is useful at all posits that leftists believe things should be more equal while rightists believe the opposite.
ITT: Fuck the poor!
OR
we could just incorporate eugenics to make there be less useless people.
instead of wasting billions of dollars on oxygen filters and CO2 producers we make humanity become the greatest potential it could be.
or just keep giving money to people that contribute nothing to the world, whatever.
>Leftism refers to freedom and non-authoritarianism and is therefore opposed to such ideas.
That is totally incorrect. The Left has never been anti-authoritarian and it has never been interested in freedom. The Left is and has always been about equality, whereas the Right has always been about stability.
Equality=/=Freedom. In fact, the two are almost incompatible--as there is no equality in nature. Equality is not a state that persists on its own, it must be enforced. Therefore one could even make the claim that Leftism is intrinsically authoritarian.
>But Marx said
Marx was literally wrong. His prediction of a classless stateless society simply does not compute. Time and again we have seen that societies naturally become unequal if left to their own devices, meaning that a coercive authority of some sort is necessary to "correct" that inequality. That means that you cannot have a leftist anarchy unless you have unnaturally perfect people.
As for UBI, I will say this: Western Society is presently on track for such a system to work, but they are doing their best to fuck it up for themselves.
How do I mean? Well, declining birthrates and shrinking populations make sense in a society where the need for mass labor is gradually diminishing. It may in fact be advisable for such societies to allow their populations to decline to the point where, when automation really takes off, there is less competition for the remaining human labor markets.
What Western society is doing instead is importing millions of inferior foreign people, who have low IQs and do not integrate into society properly. These people are leeches who suck the blood out of a functional society. This is being done because the governments of the West quite incorrectly believe that these people will pick up the slack as their native populations age, and support the ponzi scheme that is social security, pension, etc.
What's actually going to happen is that increasing automation is going to put more and more of these people (who were not competitive in the first place because of their room temperature IQs) on the welfare dole, and their frustration will cause civil unrest. UBI right now would only aggravate the problem, and if you believe otherwise you are a fool.
