Why do you faggots continue to call liberals "lefties"? Don't you realize liberals don't want capitalism to go away and, therefore, are still to the right of the political spectrum? To be a leftist means to be a communist/socialist (An ACTUAL socialist, not the Bernie Sanders brand of Social Democracy). If liberals were leftists, they wouldn't be trying to make all these shitty reforms to capitalism (e.g. more female CEOs), they would be trying to get rid of capitalism outright (e.g. no more CEOs).
I blame this on the retarded political system the US has, where no party other than Republicans and Democrats can get any traction.
Fuck off lefty
>>79214703
liberals are leftists. they want the destruction of everything that is good in society just like communists, they're just smart enough to usually hide their true intentions.
>>79214819
I'm not a lefty, I support Trump, I just hate how people call Democraps "leftists" when they're clearly not.
>>79214703
>People on /pol/ not having any actual idea what actual party alignments are or mean
SHOCKER!
>>79214703
I guess the same reason that they call nazis "far right".
>>79214703
>SOSIDLISTS
>SRJAEDIIG TNE SHEDLTN
What?
>>79214958
>they want the destruction of everything that is good in society just like communists
>just like communists
m8 you have no idea what communism actually is
>>79215206
thats what its sound if you actually read the russian letters( in russian ofcourse)
>>79215299
>True Communism has never been tried.
>>79214703
Leftists in my country are just liberals playing ideological dress-up. They have the exact same values and beliefs, but leftists want to make themselves seem more 'radical' and 'anti-status quo' (it also gives them an outlet for their violent fantasies)
>>79215299
Mate, I know what communism is. It is pure evil. We all see what's happening in Venezuela. There's your utopian paradise.
"Liberal" doesn't mean "liberal" any more. Both the so-called liberals themselves and and conservatives misuse the term. They should be called "progressives" imho.
>>79215674
Yeah, bet you feel super smart for referencing that MS Paint comic right? Try again, that one has been disproven time and time again.
>>79216015
>A long list of literally whos
>Compared to the actual list of communist countries and their disastrous record.
>>79216015
that's your rebuttal? a list of communists who fucked their people's shit up, and committed atrocities?
>>79215890
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ4W209fjWQ
>>79216217
The point of the image is to show that these literally whos were literally whos because some group interfered and destroyed their attemp to establish socialism before they even could do it.
>>79216435
What the absolute fuck are you talking about? Are you thinking of this one?
>>79216015
You're a total fucking retard.
>>79216217
To add to that, ever thought that the reason mot of those are never brought up is because they don't fit the narrative of "communism=bad"? Outside most commy circles, very few people talk about communism in a good light.
>>79216890
Not an argument, friendo. But keep your prejudices straight from the 1960s. Bet you think imposing a blockade on a tiny island nation because it's run differently from you is a good thing.
>>79216767
No, that pic is accurate.
Your video is laughably stupid. Venezuela is collapsing because they created a communist economy based entirely on the international price of oil, which tanked. If they had a capitalist system, the economy would be diversified enough to absorb the downturn. Since they rely on central planning, and their planners are fucking stupid, their economy has collapsed.
It's okay, though. Once there is mass starvation the people will pick up their pitchforks and torches and burn down city hall. The communists will be hanged, as they deserve.
>>79217796
How is Venezuela not capitalist?
>Communist economy
How fucking stupid are you?
>>79217796
How is the other pic *not* accurate? You can't pick and choose which pic you want to call accurate.
>venezuela
>communist
Laughable argument. Means of production aren't owned by the workers. Ergo, not communist.
Seriously, how bad is the educational system in America that they don't even teach you the basics of Marxism? I learned that in my second-to-last year of high school.
>>79214703
I agree, modern liberals are not liberals in the classical sense but instead are just socialists and Communists. Anyone who disagrees with them, even the classic liberals, are the enemy.
Leftist scum
>>79217796
Also, many famines under capitalism were caused by monoculture, because having only one crop was the cheapest option, and when that crop failed, the whole economy failed. But I've never, in my fucking life, seen *anybody* blame capitalism for these failures.
>>79218417
But they're not socialists, that's my fucking point. If they were actual socialists, they would want the means of production to be owned by the workers.
>>79218113
>How is Venezuela not capitalist?
Because it is explicitly communist. God damn, how are commies that stupid?
>>79218149
>my special snowflake version of communism would totes work guise!
>all the actual communists aren't really communist because it's not my flavor!
>>79218569
>Also, many famines under capitalism were caused by monoculture, because having only one crop was the cheapest option, and when that crop failed, the whole economy failed. But I've never, in my fucking life, seen *anybody* blame capitalism for these failures.
That's because you made that up and it never happened.
>>79218579
Great logic. So the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic?
What is a Communist economy and how is Venezuela a Communist economy. You have no idea what you're talking about.
>>79218569
If they aren't liberals, socialists or Communists then what are they?
>>79218666
Name one Communist country and why it was communist without saying "because they said they were communists"
>>79218828
Oh, I see. So you're saying that the Venezuelans say they're communist because they secretly mean the opposite of that. Got it.
>>79214703
You seem to identify the left-right-wing politics mentality in an unidimensional fashion, but there is no "the left", and there is no "the right".
Both socialism and liberalism are left-wing because they try to give the people more power relative to the government, but they do it in completely different ways.
>>79214703
Socialism and liberal, you gone full retard. Being social isn't Socialism, you should go out more and be social.
>>79219028
They don't say they're communist. Good job avoiding the question. Read a book.
>>79218579
>>79218666
Dude. Fucking look up communism on wikipedia.
>In political and social sciences, communism is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the *common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.*
That's not true of *any* of the so called "communist states"
>>79218720
Irish famine
>>79218833
I never said they weren't liberals. I said they weren't socialists.
>>79219165
wat
>>79214703
>If liberals were leftists, they wouldn't be trying to make all these shitty reforms to capitalism
hello lebbit, females are pushed because they have no alliance to their tribe, not because of capitalism. They are perfect leaders for globalisation and the destruction of ethnic identies because they literally believe in equality.
Btw. we don't have capitalism, we have a corrupt oligarchy that uses welfare programs to sedate the masses
>>79218984
Cuba because it is communist. See how easy that is?
You commies have a really cute delusion, though. You know that communism has a track record that is so uniquely bad that you have to do anything you possibly can to disassociate your awful ideas from it or you'll never get off the ground. The thing is, you can't hide what you are. Your ideas are bad, and you are bad for believing them, regardless of your propagandistic labels.
>>79219180
Sure they do. They say they're socialist, which is the same thing.
>inb4 they're not
no distinctions without differences, please. You're really not fooling anyone.
>>79214703
Not all social democracies are fully planned or state economies. Lefties also tend to do coups. Not all lefties are violent or violent revolutionaries. Or even just revolutionaries or any other pejorative. We can have mixed economies you derpenstein
>>79219298
>Cuba because it is communist
Cuba isn't a stateless and classless society.
You don't even know what communism means. You are the one who is deluded.
>>79219289
>That's not true of *any* of the so called "communist states"
So you're saying communism doesn't work. QED.
>>79219289
>Irish famine
Not capitalist. The Irish were forced to plant primarily potatoes (which are not indigenous to Ireland) by the British government acting as central planners (communists).
>>79219180
>leftist shill gets BTFO
>r-read a book!
EVERY TIME
Leftists like you love projecting your own ignorance on others
>>79219564
>communist countries aren't communist
-you
Sorry, anon. You need to look in a mirror before you call someone else deluded.
>>79219678
No rightist here can answer my question. What is communism and which countries are/were communist under this definition. I'm winning.
>>79219765
Again, what is communism and name a country that fits this definition. You can't. I win.
>>79219289
You know social interaction, like Social Democrats, they work on Social democracy among people. Socialism was created by Communists, but they called it Socialism, nothing to do with democracy, since Socialism is one-party system where you vote for people's representatives who work with one-party Communists, so you directly influence the laws of people and can dispose politicians, while during democracy of left/right system you vote for political parties for specific terms and you can't dispose of politicians or influence the laws, since that's all done by political party. Democracy isn't very democratical.
>>79219876
Only in your own mind. Saying that Cuba isn't communist isn't a win, that's an auto-loss.
>>79219956
Cuba isn't a stateless and classless society. So they aren't Communist. I win.
>>79214703
Bernvictims and Blairites are by far the most prominent factions on the left these days. Get some influence and then we'll talk.
>>79214703
americans are stupid and there are too many, its impossible to correct their stupidity sadly so it generally overcomes the correct usage of words and such, like for example the word America
>>79220075
No, you just have an impossible definition of communism.
Which is fine, you can make shit up. But you should know it puts you on the same level as SJWs who "re-define" racism to mean privilege plus power so they can rationalize their own bigotry.
They think they win, too.
>>79219876
Communism and countries are diametrically opposed to each other.
Besides Communism is a delusional dreams to trick retards to give government control over all aspects of economic activity
>>79219813
>I'm winning.
lmao saying so doesn't make it true
also people could write an essay on your question the bulletpoint form 4chan favours isn't good for it. also if communist movements have always failed to establish an actual communist government that's evidence that it won't ever happen
>>79214958
I really hope you're joking m8.
You do realize that leftists hate liberals right? They consider them traitors to the revolution because they prioritize things like feminism before class conflict
>>79214703
Suck it up bourgeois poltards your meme system called capitalism failed. And this time for good. I wish those fascist vampires Friedman and Hayek were still alive to tell us how much democracy, prosperity and peace have progressed.
>>79220349
So one leftist hates the other leftist. Like I care. That's like saying the shiites and sunnis hate each other. They all worship moehommad.
>>79220355
>greek
>saying capitalism doesn't work
how would you know? pay denbts.
The socialist means to reach their goal it's the same than liberals.
Capitalism has won the subversion war by adapting, both sides want no borders, no sense of nationality, no sense of family, etc.
So while socialist spout the John lennon bullshit, the jews behind rubb their hands and say "goyim are doing our work while we sit back". No nation, no religion is victory for capitalism.
Mainstream left got wealthy and comfortable in capitalist systems and are mostly satisfied with protecting and expanding welfare systems now. They're very bourgeoisie and can barely contain their class hatred for the filthy ignorant poors every time they act unruly by having their own opinions.
Look at how they act and what they say about Trump supporters and brexit.
>>79216767
Ese video me dio cancer.
>Chavez expropia los negocios y las industrias
>Se los da a los trabajadores
>2 meses despues las fabricas dejan de producir
>De 62 companias que venden/exportan cafe antes de Chavez hoy en dia solo quendan 2
kys pls
>>79220349
All leftists hate each other. Leftists purging other leftists based in the accusation that they are traitrors to the revolution is the signature calling card of leftist regimes.
>>79216015
>>79220294
>Communism is a delusional dreams to trick retards to give government control over all aspects of economic activity
If a government controls economic activity then you don't have communism. Communism requires the workers to control the means of production not the state...
>>79220330
>also if communist movements have always failed to establish an actual communist government
Revolutionary Catalonia and the Free State of Ukraine were potential examples of true leftist societies.
>>79214962
you have it backwards, they aren't really "liberals", they are leftists who call themselves "liberals" in America because "leftist" or "social democrat" has more negative connotations here than elsewhere in the world.
Most democrat politicians are closet-marxists
>>79214703
>Why do you faggots continue to call liberals "lefties"?
>Don't you realize liberals don't want capitalism to go away and, therefore, are still to the right of the political spectrum?
Cringed...
Capitalism isn't rightwing..
Socialism isn't rightwing
Libertarianism isn't rightwing
Do you know what the rightwing actually is?
Classical rightwing was monarchism, aristocracy, feudalism, etc.
The French republicans were LITERALLY leftwing in the sense that they wanted their government to be controlled legalistically rather than by a social hierarchy.
>>79220499
>So one leftist hates the other leftist. Like I care. That's like saying the Christians and atheists hate each other. They all believe something.
FTFY
Liebrals are welfare capitalists, leftists are socialists. End of story
>>79214703
>Why do you faggots continue to call liberals "lefties"?
Americans do mostly because all parties are right wing parties so the one to the left is called "lefty" even though its by european measures mostly right.
"Liberals" are those who want open borders and free market raw capitalism.
"Lefties" are socialist and communist but those are very taboo in that capitalist cradle.
In short: murifats are stupid and selfcentered
>>79219293
Wikipedia helps:
>
>>79219298
Cuba isn't communist. It's state capitalist, as the MoP are owned by the state and not the people.
>>79219374
>socialism = communism
>people are this misinformed
Communism *is* a form of socialism. Socialism, however, isn't always a form of communism, as there are many variations of socialism, many of which don't fit the definition of communism
>>79219476
Again, communism isn't a state economy. The whole point of communism is that there is no state.
>>79219628
No, I'm just saying communism hasn't been achieved. We can't know if communism works if there has never been communism.
>>The Irish were forced to plant primarily potatoes (which are not indigenous to Ireland) by the British government acting as central planners (communists).
>central planning = communism
kys
The British were forcing the Irish plant potatoes because it's more economically convenient for them. Jesus, how fucking spooked can somebody be? The Cold War is over.
>>79220089
idk about Blair, but Bernie isn't actually socialist.
>inb4 no true scotsman
Here's a quick graph to know if someone's a socialist
>>79220221
delet this
>>79220255
That's Marx's definition of communism. Read a fucking book.
>>79220294
>Besides Communism is a delusional dreams to trick retards to give government control over all aspects of economic activity
How can you give economic control to something that doesn't exist?
>>79220330
See >>79216015
>>79220599
>believing in cultural marxism
Kill yourself, my fellow countryman :^)
>>79220775
Likely bait, but that's pretty much it. Liberals don't want to get rid of capitalism because it's not good for them.
>>79221135
>political spectrum never changes
If that's the case, we're ALL leftists on this blessed day :)
Yeah they are the same thing; both Republicans in my mind. Im a Libertarian and voting Gary Johnson.
>>79221344
Fugg, forgot the definition for capitalism:
>Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.
>>79221050
>Most democrat politicians are closet-marxists
Hah I wish. If cultural marxism really was a thing, the media would be promoting economic democracy not LGBT pride parades.
>>79221135
>The definitions of words never change over time. Right-wing should mean monarchism forever even though Monarchism is no longer relevant.
A fucking leaf
>>79221344
>>79221467
Matate argentino come mierda, te salvaste de los Kirchner ahora que Macri gano en tu pais.
>>79221223
they believe the same things, though. liberals want to destroy society and make things worse for everyone just like the other leftists. they're just smart enough to lie about the obvious consequences. for instance, liberals will say they want abortion to be "rare." other leftists will admit they want to murder as many babies as possible. but the truth is the liberals want to murder as many babies as possible, too. they just think that if they lie convincingly enough they can get their way.
>>79221344
Based Argentina
>>79220573
Let me guess: Capitalism has never been tried in Greece. Right?
Memes can go both ways you know.
Because I am in Greece I know, imperialist. Ask your southern neighbors, they know even better.
>>79221752
>implying I even liked the Kirchner
haha buen meme familia :-)
>>79221344
>USSR wasn't communist
>Cuba's not communist
>Venezuela's not communist
You people are so fucking deluded. For as anti-theist as you are, you worship your ideology as a god damn religion, complete with thought terminating cliches and internally contradictory cognitive dissonance.
>>79221890
What's your opinion on Partido Obrero?
>>79221831
>leftists will admit they want to murder as many babies as possible
Dafuq? When exactly do Karl Marx and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon say they loves abortion?
I'm morally opposed to abortion personally. I really don't think you understand what socialism is.
>>79221865
Because you are in greece all you know is how to not pay your denbts. You have no frame of reference, go back to begging the Germans for shekels.
Is this a fucking pro-communist shill thread?
It sure is fucking summer, ain't it?
>>79214703
>Calls Americans stupid
>Muh Socialism an communism equal big gubbermant did u no da ussr hurr
Fuck off Argie.
>>79222102
>You people are so fucking deluded. For as anti-theist as you are, you worship your ideology as a god damn religion, complete with thought terminating cliches and internally contradictory cognitive dissonance.
Do you want examples of communist/socialist societies? Here:
-Revoltionary Catalonia
-The Free State of Ukraine
Other possible examples:
-Rojava
-The Paris Commune
When it comes down to it a communist society must:
-Allow the workers to own the means of production
-Not have a market
-Not have a centralized state
The USSR, Cuba, and Venezuela fail these criteria. In fact, they fail all three criteria
>>79214703
Liberals are leftists who had to admit that capitalism is necessary (either because they read Mises or because they don't want to be shot by the right-wingers in America), but are trying to regulate it as much as possible to emulate socialism's perceived benefits.
>>79222182
Communists love anything that is bad for society, which includes abortion. It's almost like you don't understand your own evil ideology.
No carajo, argentino estupido.
Liberals in USA = socialists in latin america.
Liberals in latin america = libertarians in USA
for fucks sake then you call yourselves white
>>79222643
>they read Mises
Well ya see that's mistake number #1 right there
I hate it when Cyrillic is used to mimic letters. It's very confusing to read.
>>79222465
>real communism has never been tried: the post
you try so hard, but no matter what you will never be able to distance yourselves from the failures of the actual communism that has been implemented throughout history. denying the USSR was communist is laughably stupid. You're not fooling anyone other than yourselves.
>>79222191
Pay denbts blah,blah,blah. All I hear from you muricans is muh deficit, muh foreign debt and Obama is a nigger commie that raised taxes.
Bet you don't even know those denbts are loans with interest we are paying back.
I blame murican dukashion though not you.
>>79221344
>>79221715
Yea, you are fucking leftists.
You're either part of western civilization or against it.
>>79222240
for commies, summer lasts the whole year. They don't work anyway.
>>79222643
>>79222790
na. liberals are brain dead. they don't read.
>>79222850
looks like you're not paying shit, greek. looks like half your people don't even pay their own taxes.
>>79220987
Underrated
>>79214703
Finally someone on here has made some sense. I see someone has been visiting the politicalcompass.
>>79222102
communism is eschatological as much as christianity or other religion.
it wants to create a new time on this earth.
utopia is necessary to political action m8
>>79222850
>those denbts are loans with interest we are paying back.
>paying back.
when?
>>79222790
Statists pls
Better dead than red!! mutherfocas!
>>79222102
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
No matter how many times you say it, it will never, *ever*, be true.
Americans often complain about propaganda in the USSR, but the propaganda in the US is awful too.
>>79222165
I don't care that much about them, really. They're too small to be a meaningful party.
>>79222388
>>Muh Socialism an communism equal big gubbermant did u no da ussr hurr
If you'd read the thread, you know that I think the oposite of that.
>>79222240
>summer
b-but it's winter, anon
>>79222678
is it even possible for somebody to be *this* spooked?
>>79222781
That's because what Murrikans call "Libertarian" is called "Liberal" in the rest of the civilized world.
>>79222830
>denying the USSR was communist is laughably stupid.
No, trying to prove that the USSR *was* communist is laughably stupid. If you read something as basic as wikipedia, you'd know that.
I'm starting to think you're baiting, but then again, people on /pol/ can be pretty fucking stupid.
>>79222958
Half of my people don't pay taxes because they're are unemployed by your glorious capitalism cuck. Spain has 50% youth unemployment too. Do you even know who those loans actually bail out murican?
>>79214703
Leftists want control of production. They want it taken out of the hands of private individuals and cooperatives and put into the hands of government, whether elected or unelected. Democrats in the US and the various Socialist/Communist parties in Europe and elsewhere are always moving toward this position, even if most don't openly state it. They do it one issue at a time, one justification at a time, one tax at a time, one regulation at a time, but the movement is always in one direction; government control of production.
>>79214703
Obama's a neoliberal and you're dumb.
>>79223291
All one must do to prove that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is communist is to say its name.
>>79223330
Your unemployment is so high because your people are too lazy to work. You want to get paid, but you don't want to earn it. Typical communist.
>>79221344
"Capitalism hasn't been tried yet because resources aren't aren't properly allocated!!!!"
this is how stupid do you sound
>>believing in cultural marxism
I don't believe, i know for a fact that's true
>Kill yourself, my fellow countryman :^)
Are you bolivian?
Your Communist professors are doing international capitals work.
Any Big Company checks if you are a bigot before hire you, any advice on CV making (sponsored by RRHH of big companies) tells you to adapt to the new Dinamic and multicultural work.
You have to admit this is a real issue for the left
>>79223480
Wouldn't that make it Socialist then?
Fuck bro, I'm on your side but you've been putting literally zero effort into your arguments
>>79214703
>socididm
>spyaeddiig the shedlth siice 1917
U wot m8
>>79222678
>Communists love anything that is bad for society, which includes abortion
It's like I'm talking to someone with mental disability. Again where the fuq does Karl Marx claim to support abortion?
You've never read Das Capital or any socialist literature (I doubt you've even read any right-wing literature) and yet you have the moxie to claim to understand my ideology. /pol/ sure is a special space isn't it?
>>79222830
What about the USSR was communist? Tell me did the workers own the means of production?
>>79214703
this thread is fucking awful
pic related
>>79223480
>all one must do to prove the democratic people's republic of korea is a democracy is to say it's name
Just because words are used a certain way doesn't mean they are used correctly.
>>79223636
I don't need to put much effort in, triggering commies is too easy.
Socialism and communism are literally the same thing.
>>79223694
>/pol/ sure is a special space, isn't it?
Seems like you come from somewhere else. Where would that be?
>>79223420
Socialism means the production (ie machines and factory) are owned by its workers not the share holders.
Socialism does not mean anything a government does.
>>79215206
>having literal autism
Wouldn't expect any different form a kraut.
>>79223575
>Are you bolivian?
Oh, so you believe in CM but you also take part on it? I reiterate, commit suicide.
All your other arguments are too retarded to deserve a rebuttal.
>>79214962
'lefty' =/= leftist u dumb faggot
>>79223694
If you had actually read Das Kapital you wouldn't have misspelled it. Nice try though, pseudointellectual.
The USSR was explicitly communist. It was literally founded by Lenin and the Bolsheviks as a communist nation in the October revolution.
>>79223566
>Your unemployment is so high because your people are too lazy to work. You want to get paid, but you don't want to earn it. Typical communist.
That's not how how communism works...
>>79223764
Actually, since democratic people's republic is a euphemism for communist, it's being used correctly.
>>79223291
>That's because what Murrikans call "Libertarian" is called "Liberal" in the rest of the civilized world.
I can confirm this
>>79224013
Sure it is. See: Chernobyl.
socialists, communists and lefties are all faggots, so I don't see the point.
>>79223694
>Tell me did the workers own the means of production?
Yes.
>>79214703
Stop calling them "progressives"
Call them what they actually are: Bolsheviks
All of the tactics of the left:
>The conquering of institutions
>The control over language
>The violence and intimidation
>The indoctrination of the youth
>The sophisticated propaganda network
This is all Bolshevism, the same as was pushed in Eastern Europe 100 years ago.
And it is in fact being pushed by the very same people (oy vey)
Bolshevism has always been a top-down organization. Where wealthy financiers use subversion, infiltration, and propaganda to smash social institutions and topple governments. The proper way to see the left is not as logical, free thinking people. But rather as hypnotized masses hooked into a top-down propaganda network.
>>79223566
fucking dumb ass
the collapse of the EU has everything to do with exploitation and nothing to do with lazy workers
>>79223566
Spoken like a true capitalist. Tell that to Spain, Portugal, Italy the rest of the Balkans, Mexico, Colombia... Why stop there tell it to the rest of the world who is not murican.
>>79224013
How are you going to celebrate the anniversary of the economic calculation problem?
Suicide, I hope.
>>79223805
In Socialism, yes, the "workers" control the means of production. But who are the "workers"? Who can claim to represent all "workers"? Government (or guild). This is why every attempt to implement Socialism (and Communism) inevitably empowers government. Nothing else can claim to represent all "workers". Without the force of government, the more industrious outproduce and outgrow the less industrious, inequality spreads, and power over production is concentrated in private hands.
>>79224013
>When it comes down to it a communist society must:
>Allow the workers to own the means of production
>Not have a market
>Not have a centralized state
So if the workers seize the means of production, don't they also have the ability to set their own rewards? Of course, if the breadmakers don't work to make bread, no one eats. But if automobiles are not meeting their quota, then the workers still get paid or else that is capitalism.
>>79223805
>Socialism means the production (ie machines and factory) are owned by its workers not the share holders.
What does this even mean in practical terms?
How exactly does lathe operator Fidel own his means of production?
>>79224395
so you have no idea that libertarian socialism is a thing? go read a book faggot.
>>79224533
>Reading sheer idiocy
I get enough of that on 4chan
>>79224333
You're kidding, right? The communists in europe have made it illegal for workers to work as much as they want. They have to close early out of "fairness." If you have a store and want to be open until 6pm, but your competitor closes at 5pm, he sicks the government on you to make things "fair."
>>79224606
Source?
>>79224533
I don't read fiction.
>>79224328
A lot of what you call "progressives" are just technocratic capitalists. The rest are champagne socialists that are their useful idiots.
>>79224606
spoopy!
>>79224665
ask any german or frenchman.
>>79224721
No m8 they are fucking Jews
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUMwgsy6ZD4
It's not some nebulous group of shadowy people smoking cigars. It's a tight-nit group of tribalists pursuing their own people's self interest at the expense of everyone else
>>79224012
In order for words to apply to any situation, they need a definition. In order for a word to apply to something, that something absolutely *needs* to fit that definition.
I'm starting to think you are an autist. Not in the meme way of calling someone an autist like it's usually done on the Chans, but an actual, diagnosable disability on the autism spectrum, because you literally cannot grasp something as simple as the definition of a word. How do you even function in real life?
>>79224120
>>79224169
To retarded to deserve a rebuttal, have a (You) for your troubles.
>>79224292
They didn't, good ol' Uncle Joe did.
>>79224395
Communism has nothing to do with representation of the workers. Communism has no state.
>>79224529
Basically, nobody owns the factory. Let's say you have the materials to make a chair. Now, in capitalism, those materials belong to your boss. When you sell that chair, you must give some of the profit to your boss for giving you his materials. In communism, however, those materials are free for you to take them, use them, and keep all the profits.
>>79224875
If I get into an argument where I need to cite a source with what you're saying, I can't just go off of fucking hearsay my friend. I'll look it up myself, but if I don't find shit I've lost faith in you
>>79224949
>lose an argument
>call people autistic
yep, about what I'd expect from a pinko.
>>79223130
http://www.ft.com/ig/sites/2015/greek-debt-monitor/
>>79224949
>Communism has no state.
Cool story bro.
>>79214703
Because no one cares about your stupid fringe political ideology
>>79225101
Seriously, ask a German or a Frog. They're probably asleep right now, but they post here.
Another fun fact: most of the French economy literally shuts down for about a month in the summer as all their workers take 4 weeks of vacation. Those poor, exploited proles.
>>79214703
standing up for classic liberalism now is almost a conservative position
>>79223804
/lit/ /sci/ /his/
>>79223575
>I don't believe, i know for a fact that's true
Hooray! Worker revolution when?
>>79224012
>If you had actually read Das Kapital you wouldn't have misspelled it. Nice try though, pseudointellectual.
I apologize. I forgot that one typo delegitimizes an entire argument.
>The USSR was explicitly communist. It was literally founded by Lenin and the Bolsheviks as a communist nation in the October revolution.
Then why didn't the workers have control of the means of production?
>>79224393
>muh economic calculation problem?
Then why are massive multi-national corporations able to run in a centralized fashion? Hell even one of the leaders of the ancaps, Bryan Caplan, admitted the calculation problem was overblown.
>>79225126
>Paying back the Germans for recapitalizing their own insolvent banks.
The funny part is /pol/acks actually wanting this of Greece in the first place.
>>79223796
>Socialism and communism are literally the same thing.
Funny thing is that the United states would fall within weeks if you got rid of your socialism. You have more than 10 times more people living in poverty than our whole population. Your income inequality is approaching dangerous levels causing all sort of problems and discontent which are seeds for civil war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw
>>79225544
>Then why are massive multi-national corporations able to run in a centralized fashion?
They don't.
>Hell even one of the leaders of the ancaps
If you have "anarchist" in your political philosophy, then you probably have neurosyphilis.
>admitted the calculation problem was overblown
Not an argument.
>>79214703
>Hitler's Germany was good
>socialism is bad
(((New pol))) logic
>>79214703
>spreading the wealth
>reducing it to nothing
not hard to spread wealth when you have none of it.
>>79225108
That's true for everyone on the chans. Besides, you're definitely acting the part of an autist.
>>79225154
Not an argument
>>79225598
At least you get it.
i don't i call them retarded faggots
>>79214703
FUCK OFF
Leftist faggot!
>>79225897
Socialism is the collective ownership of production. Welfare is a subsidy.
Liberals are dirt, they would end in Gulag as the first
>>79225897
Which is fucked up because the unemployment we have is 10%. ~12% for people my age. I am lucky and have a job while finishing school, but I don't have retirement. It's fucking gone already. We're in debt so much we can't possibly do anything else than slowly follow Greece. A walking zombie nation.
And still we do is to import refugees to fix our problem of what, not enough people to do jobs.
>>79225544
>I apologize. I forgot that one typo delegitimizes an entire argument.
pic related is spot on (Worst part is, it was made to mock liberals)
>>79225949
Ancaps aren't real anarchists, because they support the existence of a hierarchy in allowing capitalism to exist.
>>79226110
Not communism
>>79226659
true dat
I was researching about Venezuela and came across this >reddit page
https://www.reddit.com/r/CapitalismVSocialism/comments/4bor1s/to_socialists_venezuela_seized_the_means_of/
It's hilarious to watch them argue against it being socialism.
>see, it didn't work, so it's not socialism
>>79226920
>see, communism and socialism are only communism and socialism if they've been successful, otherwise they cannot be used for your argument or my argument because in my reality, they were psuedo-capitalists
It truly is a cancerous ideology, isn't it?
>>79226920
1. The means weren't seized by the workers
2. What is it with everyone pulling up Venezuela as the latest "lol communism doesnt work rite guyz" country? Venezuela did great under Chávez, but now that it's in a crisis, people start saying it doesn't work? Crises exist under capitalism, that doesn't mean capitalism doesn't work.
>>79227525
Jesus fucking Christ, were any means ever seized by the workers? I'm taking the means of production literally here, as in the shovel, please explain so I can understand! I WANT to understand!
>>79227287
true
>it's not a REAL crime because the person did not die, see? he's just in a coma. unless you prove the person is actually dead that's just capitalist-pacifism to me
>>79227287
It's made worse by fags that conflate welfare with socialism, because then the success of any social insurance program in a capitalist state makes people think letting the State run their farms and grocery stores might be a good idea.
Venezeula institutes price ceilings, as they can no longer afford subsidies, and immediately there are shortages, as predicts.
>but i didn't take control of factory so it doesn't count XD
>>79227525
The thing here is actually arguing that socialism in fact can work. I can safely say that Portugalism (my own brand of classless organization) has never been tried because my parents don't own the world's means of production. And that is true, they never have.
Another different issue would be trying to convince everyone to try Portugalism. I don't recommend it though, personally.
>>79227743
Who owns the shovel? If your boss does, then you didn't seize it. If the state does, then you didn't seize it. If nobody owns it and you can use it as you wish, congratulations. You seized it.
>>79227777
>it's not REAL murder because the person did not die, see? he's just in a coma. unless you prove the person is actually dead that's just attempted murder to me
FTFY. Waste of a get tbqh with u famalam
>>79228180
so you concede that all those attempts at socialism were actually attempted socialisms. I wonder what happened that they all failed. Maybe the plan did not go as expected?
>>79228180
So then there would be no point in having a boss if you own the shovel. If you're stupid and don't know how best to manage the means, you still own the shovel and can hit it against the side of a mountain. Shit man, help me out a bit more. Give me some stuff to read
>>79228157
The difference is that Portugalism is something you just made up, whereas entire books have been written on communism, and many people were convinced to try it.
The day you write a book on Portugalism, and get people to try and build a Portugalist state, only then will I take that as a viable argument.
>>79216015
>Chaves worked
Here's a little story
>be me
>working as a painter
>most workers are from south america
>a few white guys but they're trashy welfare queens
>6 of us stuck in a 6 seat truck on the way back from site
>White guy starts on about he wants to go back to school
>implying he ever finished secondary
>says he wishes we could have free post secondary
>I start trying to lead him to the ending that it's a stupid idea and that this job pays 5 bucks an hour over minimum wage with easy work and crazy good hours with no education needed
>starts saying everyone should make our money and that socialism is good
>Venezuelan guy on my right who stayed quiet tells us where he's come from and what he's seen
>notoiletpapermeme.jpg
>gangs kill anyone
>cops don't give any shits about anything
>might as well be south africa from what it sounds like
>nobody can afford anything and whatever you buy gets stolen within the week
>continues tragic story about how only he could make it out of there and spent years as an illegal in the US
>white guy shuts up
>awkward silence
>"I think we could [socialism] make it work" - white welfare queen with first job in years
Funny fact to is he buys smokes, beer, plays in a pool league, has kids and a house but complains about how low welfare is.
>>79228504
no matter how many books are written, it will only be speculation until it is tried. and according to socialists, it never has been.
so my question is: why do they insist on such a story?
>>79214958
>liberals are leftists. they want the destruction of everything that is good in society just like communists,
I lean right, but it's bone-jarring retards like you that make me want to quit the Republican party.
In fact, I'm tired of the racists and bigots who care more about punishing minorities and immigrants than fixing our economy. I'm sick of all the hate and fear mongering. I'm shocked by all the abject stupidity on /pol/
>>79228809
Thank you for correcting the record
>>79228504
>>79214703
OP smokes crack
>>79228427
Quit putting words in my mouth faggot, I was just showing you why that comparison was shit and not appropiate.
>>79228444
No, in that case, *everyone* in the factory owns the shovel. I am free to use the shovel, as is my coworker.
Glad to see you're interested in reading! I'd recommend starting by pic related, a great read. It's only 40 pages long! Glad I helped :)
>>79229136
my point still stands
what was the missing ingredient that kept socialism revolutions from realization? I mean so many attempts, so little achievements? something has to be wrong, no?
>>79229136
So then is the community defined as the workplace exclusively, or is it defined as the specific geographic location that people live in? Because if the former, then ALL workers have not seized the means, anyone outside the profession cannot pick up the shovel. If it is the community, then anyone with hands can go pick up the shovel and put it in his own garage, with everyone having access to his garage. Is this correct, or is this flawed?
>>79229136
Read these instead. They're actually useful.
>>79220987
kek'd, my favorite spongebob scene ever.
>>79226681
>We're in debt so much we can't possibly do anything else than slowly follow Greece
False. Leave.
>>79229343
>incompetent leaders (USSR, China)
>workers not actually owning the MoP (USSR; China, Cuba)
>outside forces interfering (Everything in >>79216015)
This needs to be said though, life in Cuba is much better nowadays than it was under Batista; people under Stalin, though it was an opressive regime (And also capitalist, keep that in mind), had much more access to food than they did under the Tsar, and, during the years Mao was in power, life expectancy on China was increasing at almost 1.5 an year. Because of this, we can safely assume than life under these so-called "communist countries" was nowhere near as bad as /pol/ says.
>>79229606
>So then is the community defined as the workplace exclusively, or is it defined as the specific geographic location that people live in?
It's the second.
>If it is the community, then anyone with hands can go pick up the shovel and put it in his own garage
Well, yes. However, that doesn't mean the community won't fight back.
>with everyone having access to his garage
No. The shovel is private property, which is something that can be used to exploit someone else's labor. The garage, however, is *personal* property, a distinct concept. Marx, while wanting to abolish private property, had no problem with personal property.
>>79229675
>implying economics are incompatible with marxism
Marx is actually quite the respected figure in Economics, even if just for his spot-on analysis on how capitalism works.
>>79229606
>So then is the community defined as the workplace exclusively, or is it defined as the specific geographic location that people live in?
The second.
>then anyone with hands can go pick up the shovel and put it in his own garage
Yes, but that doesn't mean people won't kick your ass for doing that, Porky.
>with everyone having access to his garage.
No. Marx made a distinction between private property and personal property. The former is anything that can be used to exploit other people's labor. The second is the stuff you own, like your house, your car, or your cum-stained gaming chair. Nobody wants to take those.
>>79230218
tell me, what lessons did the revolutionaries learn from their mistakes?
surely they're not trying to seize the MoP the exact same way, right? surely that'll lead to the same catastrophic outcome.
>>79230471
how is that not cartelization? what does the average consumer stand to gain from it?
>>79230471
So then all it takes is one sneaky, greedy asshole who wants the shovel to fuck over the community? If he were to take the shovel without anyone knowing it, the community must pay for a new one. In theory, everyone in the community would need to agree with the set standard, or else the whole thing can be toppled by one man.
Yes, I understand now, we must seize the means
>>79214703
The democrat party is endorsed year in year out by the communist party USA.
Nuff said.
>>79221344
based
>>79231215
CPUSA is completely controlled by the CIA, true story
ITT: most of /pol/ yet again show their political ignorance
>>79231215
Yes the Democratic party fights to undermine capitalism.
>>79230959
Why would anyone want to steal infinity shovels though? It's not like people are naturally assholes who seek to fuck people over. That's what happens in capitalism.
Also, how often do people steal shovels in capitalism? Buildings have security, you can't take a shovel without a camera or security guard seeing you.
>>79230810
The "average consumer" doesn't gain anything, because the revolution isn't supposed to benefit the average consumer. The revolution is supposed to benefit the worker.
>>79230692
>that we need better leaders
>that we need to actually give the means to the workers
>that other countries needs to mind their own business
>>79231215
Well, there aren't many other choices. At least the Democrats want social change. Do you think the commies would be OK with someone like Trump on the power?
>>79231455
it's not true ignorance
>>79231905
>that we need better leaders
there should be no leaders in a stateless society
>that we need to actually give the means to the workers
that's the easy part, you should worry about keeping those means of production stable enough so the people depending on those cartels don't actually revolt
>that other countries needs to mind their own business
easier said than done, try managing diplomacy in a stateless, classless society
>>79231905
>Its not like people are naturally assholes who seek to fuck you over...
Bless you child, your innocence shows. Have you ever been involved in a Co-op? Actually, I'm interested in your current profession, that you have seized the means of. And yes, a welfare check is a tool :^)
>>79231455
>Mexican political intellectuals
>>79232119
>there should be no leaders in a stateless society
But the revolution needs a leader
>that's the easy part, you should worry about keeping those means of production stable enough so the people depending on those cartels don't actually revolt
That's not really a cartel though. In fact, I'd say that, under communism, you don't belong to any particular "company" (For lack of a better word, because companies don't exist). If you want to go fishing today, and then want to build chairs tomorrow, you totally can. That prevents alienation.
>easier said than done, try managing diplomacy in a stateless, classless society
Communism can't exist in a vacuum. It needs to become mode of production in the whole world before the state can dissolve (Marx said that, too. I'm not pulling it out of my ass).
>>79232200
As I said, greed only really thrives in capitalism. If you look closely at your social relationships, you'll notice they act like a mini-communism. If your friend asks you for help with moving his furniture, you don't charge him. If you want to use your friend's cellphone for a minute, he won't ask you to pay him.
Well kiddies, this little AMA with a pinko is now over. I'd love to stay here all night, but sadly I have work tomorrow.
I'm the head mod of /r/Socialism, so if you want to ask me more questions, just ask me there
(Disclaimer: I'm not actually the head mod of /r/Socialism, that sub is a cesspool. They don't have jobs either. Direct any actual questions to /leftypol/)
>>79214958
>liberals are leftists. they want the destruction of everything that is good in society just like communists, they're just smart enough to usually hide their true intentions.
>Classical Liberalism
>Left-wing
>>79214703
>Why do you faggots continue to call liberals "lefties"?
Because 99% of these faggots would never touch Marx beyond muh Frankfurt School
>Don't you realize liberals don't want capitalism to go away and, therefore, are still to the right of the political spectrum?
The two axis or three axis spectrum?
>>79233131
I actually know one of the mods of /r/socialism. He's a bit weird. He's a Dutch Teenager, I think 15.
I'm literally a socialist oligarchist atheist/agnostic who wants Islam to fuck off, but through peaceful means which means speaking out against it.
I'm a classical liberal which is different from the social liberals. I honestly think that communism isn't gonna work out, communism is good in theory but horrible in practice. Capitalism may have its ups and downs but I honestly think capitalism is better than communism.
>>79236242
>the most unoriginal opinion ever
>>79214703
Maybe "true leftism" works for its "opposition" same as liberals still work inside capitalist premises
You've been fooled, sorry
