Ignoring production and based simply on technical innovation and piloting skill, what country was the best at air warfare in WW2?
anyone have that wing cut webm?
Yanks, I'm sorry to admit.
Complete dominance.
>>79157262
RAF
late war probably
USAF
Luftwaffe late war.
>me262
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces
Germany, only a couple of bad strategic decisions, exhausted manpower and time stopped them
>>79157262
"""""flying"""""
"""""fortress"""""
>>79157262
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUG
THE END WHERE THE FUEL TANKS IN THE WING BLOW
IN SLOW MO GODDAM
>>79157913
Holy fucking shit
Germany based on actual performance
Some of the top German aces said the British were the best they just never had enough targets to get the high score
>>79157913
Difference is that in Germany pilots were flying basically non stop since 1939, some since spanish civil war.
And the most sucessful ones were on Eastern Front.
UK and US actually cared about their pilots well being, and they were cycled in and out of active service
America airdropped two fucking nuclear weapons
Luftwaffe obviously.
Me262 and Ar234 shat on everything else they were up against. They were just too late in the war to make a difference.
Wiki "Air Superiority" and look under the WW2 header. Protip: Americans.
>>79158094
you got to add to that: while those guys were certainly skilled the russians were kind of really shit regarding air combat, especially early on.
>>79158155
>dropping 2 A.Bombs on the fucking gooks
"air warfare"
>>79158136
Its not even that, the Nazis completely depleted their pilots, including their experience, through the BoB. RAF pilots could potentially bail over England and share their experience / fly again. Luftwaffe pilots were fucked from the beginning due to the disadvantage of flying so close to their combat radius, and lost all their pilots due to bailing over enemy territory.
It destroyed their effectiveness.
>>79158305
I'm aware of that but still all those exclusively nazi flags going down for about 150 names is still a sight to behold.
>>79157913
/thread
>>79157262
Germany.
Most aces and giving birth to the ace of all aces.
Not to mention germans pioniert aircombat since ww1.
>>79157262
Either USA or UK.
>>79157262
First the brits then the yanks.
>>79157262
German > US > UK > Japan > Finland > Soviet > Italy
>>79157262
Germans and brits were the most skilled pilots.
But brits used radial compressors in their planes which was pretty dumb.
>>79158530
Probably this tb.h
Depends what the criteria is. If its kills alone - germans. Keep in mind though shooting down russians was a turkey shoot. They had almost no training whatsoever. So you have german aces on the eastern front with hundreds of kills which skews the stats.
Kek, shot down soviet planes shouldn't count. Erich Hartmann, the most succesfull ace in history asked by a british pilot how he menaged to reach 352 air victories:
>Well you can't believe it, but the Sturmovik, which was their main ground-attack aircraft, flew like B-17s in formation and didn't attempt to make any evasive manoeuvres. And all they had was one peashooter in the back of each plane. Also, some of the pilots were women. Their peashooter was no threat unless they had a very lucky hit on you. I didn't open fire til the aircraft filled my whole windscreen. If I did this, I would get one every time.
>>79158223
You're including production though. The US had some very good aircraft, but the sheer number of planes and overall war strategy played a major role.
On a purely technical level German aircraft were much more advanced with their jet engines.
>>79157262
wish we were talking about ww1, the red baron wouldve wiped the floor with anyone if he didnt get cocky
All the buthurt
Mhhhhhhhhh other nations cant in to flying.
Get rekt.
>>79158609
>turkey shoot
THAT
NADSIS WERE BEATING ON NOOBS, PRACTICALLY CAMPING THEIR SPAWN, THOSE KILLS ARE NOT A REFLECTION OF SKILL
>ITT people buying into the whole imbecilic "Knights of the Sky" bullshit that actually ruined the Axis air arms rather than make them more effective at air warfare.
Why can't /pol/ into strategic thinking?
>>79158551
Yeah Brits relied on 120 grade high octane fuel to get performance in their small engined Spitfires, which meant they'd catch on fire after 2 hours.
Whereas the Luftwaffe's Bf 109's used larger engines with lower grade, more accessible fuel, and they didn't catch on fire spontaneously. They also were faster.
>>79158750
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Philippine_Sea
>The aerial theatre of the battle was nicknamed the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot by American aviators for the severely disproportional loss ratio inflicted upon Japanese aircraft by American pilots and anti-aircraft gunners.
>>79158750
>>79157913
Damn. Thats impressive.
>>79158903
Japanese are poor pilots because they can't see out their eyes
>>79157262
Messy went for speed, Spitty went for turning circle. The latter ended up winning, but for an objective design award I'd go for the messy any day.
In pure dogfights I would say Britain but US very closely behind
Look at this fucking marvel of engineering, only a German could muster.
This beast was mass-produced, and used fucking lawnmower fuel equivalent in low-grade. So it was damn cheap to fuel, it got up to 640km/hr. It also had an onboard gyroscope that would realign it upright if it was rolled over by a British pilot "tipping" the wings of it with his wing.
>>79158979
This. Kamikaze pilots are a myth, they never meant to crash, suicide planes were just a myth created by merciful Americans to save future nips from the embarrassment of being subhuman MONGS.
>>79157262
considering what planes our soldiers were given,i think our pilots rank amongst the best
>>79158979
They have the advantage when flying towards the sun though.
If the Germans finished the Ho-229 and developed nukes they could have hit New York.
>>79158609
>>79158646
I can't even name a single Russian plane (apart from the one in that post which I just learned of) so that alone says something.
You people are idiots that bought into popular "history" nonsense and propaganda. Start reading actual engineering and history books. The tank and fighter claims were proven bullshit, and started to be slashed by half even by Nazi propaganda arm.
Experten system doomed them in the long run. Me-262 was a disaster, Bf-109 was obsolete past F model. DB-60x was shit compared to -1710 and Merlins.
Americans got it right, except their idiotic bombers will get through bomber mafia that went on to fabricate the myth of Mustang D as only good and long ranged fighter. Yak-3 low altitude champion, P-38 middle, P-47 high. I could go into detail on each and every of these points, and more.
>>79158835
This so much. I don't like how often forgotten the Yak series was, however. Very nifty design.
>>79159068
Unfortunately it was literally worthless and did nothing to stop the Luftwaffe from getting BTFO daily by the RAF.
>>79159134
Ho 229 would have also been effective in attacking London directly. It's ability to fly 970km/hr, with it's small radar cross section, due to it's construction, and also flying low above sea level. Would make it undetected by radar, it could bomb, then fuck off.
>>79159209
How was the BTD?
>1945
Tfw we had to rely on Miss Shilling's orifice to keep us in the fight
Thanks Miss Shilling :3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Shilling
Americans and Brits.
German strategic decisions in air war were often borderline idiotic.
Shooting down badly trained Soviets is not a big accomplishment. Soviet Air Force was an inferior opponent, they simply didn't have enough pilots to train other pilots, which meant they only caught up with Luftwaffe in late '44.
>>79157913
>1/4 the list all in top are germans
>over 1/2 the list from bottom up americans
>>79157913
This. Germans were unbeatable in the sky, so they had to be beaten on the ground.
>>79159044
BF109 was an energy fighter
Spitfire was a dogfighter
it's like apples and oranges
How can ignore production while basing things on technological information, it's like the difference between milled metal vs stamped?
>>79159140
Yak-9
La-7
Pe-2
The Ruskies didn't have as many memorable names, like Mustang, Zero, etc.
>>79159382
> a-am I kawaii, senpai?
>>79157913
>according to Luftwaffe 3,058 aerial victories were scored against RAF fighters in the Battle of Britain
>RAF had 1,963 available fighter aircraft during the campaign
Luftwaffe confirmed for not being able to count for shit.
Those aces shot down nowhere near the numbers listed.
Granted the Luftwaffe tended to keep veteran pilots flying missions far beyond what was expected of Allied pilots who reached 'ace' status (they tended to go and teach trainee pilots), but those numbers are just ridiculous.
>>79157262
Germany easily
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann
there were like 50+ germans with 100+ confirmed kills
The allies won the skies because of numbers and extremely poor decisions on the ground by the Germans.
Also in terms of technical innovation the Nazis built the first fucking Jet fighter.
>>79159582
By production I just meant numbers, so assuming the germans could output as many planes as the allies or something. In other words, if the default answer was going to just be USAF because they could win based simply on numbers the answers would be boring. Obviously in reality it's not irrelevant.
>>79159541
It's the other way around lad. The Germans being beaten in the sky is what allowed them to be beaten on the ground.
Every single panzer they had was invalidated the moment the USAF achieved air superiority.
>>79159616
Consider that German pilots operated under much more risky ROE and there were very few of them which didn't allow for much rotation. The good ones would definitely get massive amounts of kills, but American and British pilots were by and large far better and by and large fly better aircraft.
>>79159347
You monkeys literally peddle the most absurd "mainstream" "Historruh" channel and softback book nonsense.
Simplistic narratives and outright fabrications. Yeah, keep on "red" pilling yourselves, dumbfucks.
>>79157262
What ABSOLUTE MADMAN took this footage?
>>79159616
I read his recount on it, and basically him and the other German aces, were flying every single day. They barely ate, drank hard liqour, everyday afterward, and were taking methamphetamine tablets called Pervitin while flying.
>>79159209
Blah blah blah.
How many e1 e3 and f1 so forth did fly joker?
G2 g10 g14
Fw 190 D versions and a versions did there job still very good.
Burgers and tomys only catched up barly in end and won by zerg rushing.
I rather sit in a 109 or 190 then in of that allied meme figthers.
>>79157262
if you were german you came across this plane in night air to air combat you were prety much dead..
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito
>>79159541
only it was the exact reverse of what you just said. USAAF and the RAF achieved air superiority long before land superiority in WWII. Britain only survived because we were able to inflict such losses on the Luftwaffe that Hitler beleived achieving air superiority in Britain would be impossible/take too long to conclude while the eastern front was hard pressed. Hess knew Britain wouldn't last much longer but got overruled.
>>79159676
Germans as well as Japanese had plenty of airplanes at the end of war. But no one to fly them. Especially to the full effect.
See, you got it THAT wrong.
Germany obviously.
>>79159765
>YOU WILL NEVER BE A SQUADRON OF GERMAN ACES HIGH ON SPEED SHOOTING DOWN ENDLESS DROVES OF NOSKILLZ RUSSIAN 15 YEAR OLDS
>>79159753
W..what. Was just wondering about the BTD Destroyer.
>>79159984
Why live?
>>79159772
Sexy.
>>79159068
>It also had an onboard gyroscope that would realign it upright if it was rolled over by a British pilot "tipping" the wings of it with his wing.
It actually couldn't, it didnt even have ailerons so basicaly once it starts to roll its finnished.
>>79159616
Read what other wrote here. German exaggerated a lot.
Even in ground combat, they exaggerated a lot. Soviets counted a tank lost if it ditched track. Operational loss.
Germans didn't count tank lost even when it lost turret, because it could be rebuilt into an assault gun.
This made counting loses hard, and obviously skewered in German favor.
Germans fought well, but this popular idea that they were some invincible force is pure rubbish.
They had the advantage of great officer corps, and years of good preparation.
Soviets had purges, Brits and French prepared late.
German success therefore came from good preparation and things going their way.
First they faced Poland without real obstructions, then they went west and faced France, without real obstructions, then they faced Soviets and also had no real obstructions until late '43 with Italian front, which was on strategic level just a diversion. So they only really fought on two fronts in '44 and collapsed quickly.
German propaganda and post-war recycling of it is taken for granted here. It doesn't reflect what really happened.
>>79159709
You can't say they were by and large far better when the entire luftwaffe was so fucking small though.
The entire point of this was not considering terms of production, and failing to produce more pilots and planes is exactly what got the Nazis btfo.
Also if you look through the list of German aces many of them got high kill counts against RAF/USAAF as well as the Russians.
One thing the allies tended to do was send their aces home to become instructors for future pilots, which prevented them from getting high kill counts or becoming truly great pilots, but also probably made their entire forces base skill level higher.
FYI as far as USSR air goes they were generally shit but I was floored to read about these gals
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Witches
>have to bomb German lines at night, silently, to avoid getting shot down in your shitty trainer
>so you shut your engine off and glide to release yr bomb
>then you climb OUT ON TO THE FRONT OF YOUR PLANE TO MANUALLY RESTART YOUR ENGINE
>be Russian and don't give a fuck
holyshit.jpg
10 me262s
vs
10 Mk9 Spits
vs
10 P47
vs
10 Yak 3
vs
10 Ki84
>>79160542
Thing is, Allied aces would probably have massive kill count if they were deployed as German pilots were.
It was an idiotic system, it's a great example of how to waste resources you have.
>>79158719
I don't think that's true. The Red Baron was able to fly how he wanted. He ran the air battles, and while his fellow Germans mixed it up with the Brits, he would circle above and swoop in to pick off vulnerable targets, then climb away.
I think his brother was a better pilot. Nearly as many kills (72 vs. 80), and he got his kills actually dogfighting. Plus he survived the war.
>>79160629
spits for sure
>>79160677
based mountain serb
>>79160275
There was also a lot of propaganda involved on all sides.
There were situations where russians reported more tank kills then germans deployed during the battle, and after the battle the same division report was made on, was still 80% combat capable.
There is also the defender - attacker distmorphism.
When you defend even if your tank gets tracked, you might need to blow if up or it gets into enemy hands.
If you're attacking you can just come later and repair it
In fact most thousands of german tanks and assault guns were lost this way, they got tracked, their engine or transmission failed or they just got no fuel, so when germans were falling back, they needed to be destroyed by their own forces.
>>79160629
Depends on pilots. Real life is not a video game.
Mc 202 is so sexy
More webms of amerishits plummeting tk their deserved fate
>>79157913
DELETE THIS
T. Gaijin
>>79160790
True.
How do they count the aerial victories?
>>79157262
Germany, Britain, Finland.
>>79161073
Someone confirms you shot it down, later they used gun-cameras.
>>79161039
Ebin, used to play that game. Simulator air battles only, tanks are boring
>>79161039
Yeah why does Gaijin (War Thunder) never post any German pilots in Ace of the Month.
>>79157262
OP, that footage is from a Hollywood movie. /k/ had a thread about fake WW2 films the other day.
Very little air-to-air combat occurred. it was all faked to get the people at home to accept rationing.
I first became aware of this at a meeting with Adam Lanza and Omar Mateen, just a week ago.
Seriously though, why do the tin-foil brigaders of 4chan believe anything?
>>79161203
Because they're slavs and are still butthurt.
>>79161173
It used to be superb untill they started to listen to the average mob about battle rating.
Thank god I never invested a penny into it or I would be really salty
HURR I AM PLEN
>>79161282
sadly true
>>79157913
>Erich Alfred Hartmann (19 April 1922 – 20 September 1993), nicknamed "Bubi" by his German comrades and "The Black Devil" by his Soviet adversaries, was a German fighter pilot during World War II and is the most successful fighter ace in the history of aerial warfare. He flew 1,404 combat missions and participated in aerial combat on 825 separate occasions. He claimed, and was credited with, shooting down 352 Allied aircraft—345 Soviet and 7 American—while serving with the Luftwaffe. During the course of his career, Hartmann was forced to crash-land his fighter 14 times due to damage received from parts of enemy aircraft he had just shot down or mechanical failure. Hartmann was never shot down or forced to land due to enemy fire.
Holy shit.
>>79160677
Once again though, OPs thought experiment wasn't based on the resource war, purely on innovation and skill.
Personally I think an equivalent amount of methed up Nazis who'd been flying non-stop for years would beat an equally sized group from any other Air Force in WWII.
>>79157913
Watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVqL6TcXM6E
>>79159756
the same madmen who shot down the bombers. Looks like guncam footage.
Air kill claims are pure nonsense. I believe Hellcat pilots claimed more kills than the Japanese lost planes during the whole war.
Then you have "stories" of SBD rear gunner downing 5 Zeroes, lone Wildcat pilot stumbling upon a neat formation of Japanese bombers and downing them, four engine bomber machine gunners downing 5 German interceptors etc. More recently, the Korean War kill claims of both sides are ultimate bullshit.
The only way to corroborate them would be to do battlefield inspection immediately or check the squadron reports from both sides.
>>79161284
Yeah, only thing that makes me start that game nowdays is EC SB.
>>79161203
Why the fuck are russkie planes and tanks so fucking OP in all tank and plane games jesus fucking christ
>>79161353
His entire wikipedia article reads like a fucking blockbuster movie, shame he's a Nazi and no one will ever make it.
>>79161279
>/k/ had a thread about fake WW2 films the other day
I think you mean /x/
>>79161555
In the case of war thunder, it's made by fucking Russians, they don't give a fuck how biased they are.
>>79158071
>>79158750
>>79159984
MFW I will never find you in person in this lifetime and beat the living fuck out of your face with your caps-locked keyboard.
Why even life?
>>79161666
Who would even be retarded enough to do that
Surely they would have had checks for this kind of thing, I mean they're pointing a fucking camera at it as it happens.
>>79157865
...which was a meme plane that broke down after like a day of use, and barely could fly ever because of fuel shortages
>>79161555
Gaijin community management:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIVijJWiIrQ
>>79158464
And now, Germany is pioneering autogenocide. Congrats.
>>79158211
Me262 WERE USED AS BOMBERS cause hitler said so ...
Luftwaffe obviously , they were outnumbered that s the only reason
>>79161666
TRIGGER DISCIPLINE, SATAN
>>79161787
COME N GIT IT FROG
Who here played Il-2 sim games?
In terms of.... what, exactly?
Raw Pilot Skill? Likely the RAF, followed very closely by the Luft, then USAAF, then Japan.
Technical Innovation? Luft > USAAF = Japan > England
Volume? USAAF > Japan > Luft > England
tl;dr - USAAF won because it zergged and teched faster. England turtled like a champ. Luft had good tech but kept overextending. Japan got screwed by MMR, it was outclassed everywhere.
>>79160629
Spits in turn fight, 262's for boom and zoom.
>>79161824
>they're pointing a fucking camera at it as it happens
Fucking millenial retards.
You may find this hard to believe, but there was a time when cameras took pictures on film and you only got to see what was captured after it had been processed in a dark room.
I know that's a fuckload of strange vocabulary. But, trust me, those are actual words from an ancient time when soldiers rode their pterodactyls into combat.
Spend some time with google & youtube and watch a few videos of actual bombing runs and formations involving a hundred or two hundred bombers. And no smart phones to textchat with your bros in all the other planes while ignoring combat all around you.
Kind of confusing.
>>79161607
Give Germany another 25 years in the oven to warm up friend.
>>79162381
Why would the Luft not be the highest in raw skill? The two best WW2 pilots in their respective fighting styles were both Germans.
Hans-Jochim Marseille and Hartmann
>>79162297
Loved il2,
Pirated cliffs of dover and could never get the cunt of the game to run smoothly.
>>79159583
>>79159140
wtf really?
MiG-3
LaGG
Yak-9
I-16
I-153
The fact that you don't know them doesn't make them obsolete
>>79158646
and if you read Hartmann, you should also know that, as he wrote, when facing bombers with fighters as cover he often didn't go for bombers, because it was more dangerous, and instead he fought fighters, same, when he was covering bombers he often abandoned them or disengaged when facing superior enemy. The soviet pilot doing the same would be shot upon landing, that's just difference in military doctrine, that's why IL-2 flied like they did, in formation, because they couldn't abandon ground attack mission. Same for B-17, many of which where shot, but they still didn't return. Germany has far superior fighter statistics, however in bombing they haven't achieved a lot on both fronts.
>>79159772
>EGOY
>GOY
Not even being subtle about it
>>79162297
They were great, even if I was realy shit at them,
>>79161203
Because every German was a filthy war criminal :^)
![torn-up[1].gif](https://i.imgur.com/650SWv4.gif "torn-up[1].gif")
>>79161824
Only the leading plane was aiming, after the order went, they all dropped the bombs.
Cameras were automatic and linked to the bomb doors, just like on fighter planes they were linked with guns.
For bombers tighter formation meant better chance of living, unless massive AA was involved.
With low/no AA tight formation was the best defence vs fighters because several bombers could fire on advancing fighter.
Shit like that happens,
It's also more then probable this bomber came back. They survived worse.
pic related
that B-17 came back and landed safely
>>79159984
>you will never be in me 262 seal clubbing the endless waves of allied bombers
>>79162780
>The fact that you don't know them doesn't make them obsolete
I know, but most people at least semi into WW2 can name a bunch of of allied or axis planes and soviet ones seem a more rare, but like another anon said it's probably just the lack of catchy names.
>>79162650
and those are the outliers
Meanwhile USAF and RAF aces were rotated out of service and tought other pilots or helped strategise.
Overall skill of USAF and RAF improved cansiderably, just like their survivability.
Same cannot be told about Luftwaffe
Top US ace was named Richard Bong.
>Dick Bong
>Dick
>Bong
>Bick Dong
>>79157913
Nicely inflated numbers for propaganda purposes
>>79162297
I loved 1946 just bought it for sale on steam. The me 262 catches fire like Jew in an oven if you look at the throttle wrong though. There's no multiplayer servers tho. We should make one.
>>79162297
I have, sucked pretty bad at them though to the point where my crowning achievement was successfully getting through 1 mission where all I had to do was take off, attack bombers along with the squad, and then actually both find my way back and land back at base.
If I ever get a joystick I might try playing them again some day, I tend to enjoy sim games more than action piloting/driving games.
>>79158530
>German > US > UK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain
>>79162867
>and then followed by American or British fighters back to your landing field because they have total air supremacy, then bounced and killed when you need to land because you ran out ouf fuel.
Wehrboos these days
>>79161353
>>79161607
he wrote memoirs and they are very good
>>79161555
Most of them are made for the russian market (in some cases like warthunder, made by russians for russians)
Then you add stuff like overbuffing T34 because "tank than won war" and putting the Tiger against tanks designed to kill it
>>79162138
Well they could also be armed with huge racks of high speed AA rockets. They'd have about 12 of these rockets on each wing and one short burst (let of like 4 rockets) would guarantee a kill even on the heaviest bombers so they made excellent interceptors.
They were useless at dogfighting because they were just too fast, turn radius would have been huge and slowing down to the same speed of prop fighters would have just given them the advantage. You don't want a fast plane for dogfighting, you want an agile one.
Me-262 was best used for CAS/Interception. That's basically all jet fighters are good for today, dog-fighting is fucking dead.
http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent/1,12044,MLrooney,00.html
>It was while Rooney was attached to the 8th that he witnessed a death terrible in its inevitability. A call came in that one bomber's ball turret gunner was trapped. Operating in the bomber's belly, ball turret gunners rotated their plastic "cages" for maximum target capability. On this particular aircraft, the rotational gears had jammed and the gunner could not return to a position where he could exit into the plane.
>The bomber was losing altitude fast and would have to make a crash landing. Everyone --crew, observers, and especially the ball turret gunner -- knew what was going to happen. The pilot ordered the crew to ditch everything to keep the plane in the air for a few more precious minutes, but still the wheels could not be brought down. "We all watched in horror as it happened," Rooney writes in "My War." We watched as this man's life ended, mashed between the concrete pavement of the runway and the belly of the bomber."
>>79157913
/thread
>>79163420
The shittiest thing about War Thunder is matchmaking WW2 German Jets against 1949 Korean War Mig15 and F-86, with both being about 200km/hr faster at sea level than the WW2 German Jets.
All for "balance" because the only allies with a Jet were the Brits in WW2.
Then when I get enough skill that I can use the Me163 rocket plane, to take out Mig15s and F86's by flanking on a climb. They fucking nerf it's agility, and increase it's battle rating up high as fuck.
>>79163470
>if you dogfight in an energy fighter, you're gonna have a bad time
No shit
>>79159984
>>79162867
>>79163035
"Ace" was a name for any pilot with 5+ more confirmed kills.
The fact that german aces progressed in the field whereas RAF/USAF didn't really makes german aces better in that regard, if, as we say, you discount the numbers
>>79157262
Germany, of course. Some contrarian dip will have some concluded or incredibly simplistic non-reason for why this isn't ture, but anyone who knows what they are talking about knows that it is true.
Better fighting capability. It got them to the point in which they were winning the battle of Britain until Hitler made one of his two massive fumbles.
>you will never be a Fockewulf pilot
>you will never boom and zoom P-51s and Yaks
>you will never fight and die with your brothers in arms over the skies of kursk
why even LIVE
>>79163802
Some people aren't so astute in the subject of war in the air, I have to say though Americans, for some reason, typically have a good understanding of air combat.
What is it about yanks and air superiority?
http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=united-states-of-america
>Total Aircraft: 13,444
let's be real here, the Spit just looks and sounds the prettiest out of all the WW2 planes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6c3v9iihgw
>>79161443
True, and is still the same even today. During the Iraq war the iraquis claimed to have shot down like 5 or 6 american planes but the american loses write them off as ground fire or critical malfunctions so you have two versions in the end and you can't be sure which one is real
>>79164666
Did anyone ever say any different, Satan?
WW2 air combat was a breeze compared to ground fighting, beside being a sniper. Operating rear artillery carried bigger dangers.
>>79159209
The P-38 was one of the best fighters of world War 2. The Brits messed up by cheaping out and ordering their's without turbochargers. The P-38 was an excellent high altitude fighter with temperature. After Lindberg showed pilots how to manage their fuel, it had a very good range being able to remain aloft for over fourteen hours. It's armament was impressive, and had excellent overall protection for the pilot. Also having a second engine meant a greater survivability for the pilot. It wasn't a dogfighter. Tactics were to come out of the sun guns blazing, make a pass, fly out of range, circle and repeat.
>>79164666
I actually preferer the sound of that mad supercharger on BF109
But not gonna lie, Griffon purrs sexy as fuck
>>79164666
Nah mate this sounded the best, ask your Grandma
https://youtu.be/Rdwbp6R2qM8?t=44s
>>79164343
>until Hitler made one of his two massive fumbles.
I assume you mean "Well if the British are bombing our cities then we'll bomb theirs" where he should have just kept focusing on destroying the RAF?
>>79162297
I love 1946 and still play it frequently, there is no rush like being in your shitty ass plane and shooting down a far superior übermenschen plane.
I have also heard pretty good things about Cliffs of Dover if you mod it to the max
>>79164343
>Julius Meimberg
wew lad
>>79164974
DELETE
>>79164343
Bogus numbers
>>79165193
>switzerland
>talking anything about war
>>79157913
Impressive but a lot of it was shooting up Russian pilots like fish in a barrel and, like everyone mentioned, not cycling pilots out.
Is it true that it was scary being in a city during heavy aerial bombardment?
![Switzerland-May-Be-Neutral-But-It-Wont-Shy-Away-From-a-Fight[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/w5h4dwk.jpg "Switzerland-May-Be-Neutral-But-It-Wont-Shy-Away-From-a-Fight[1].jpg")
>>79165328
Reminder that neither during WW1 or WW2 germany did invade the swiss, even through they had a massive murderboner for them
>>79165542
Very. When the allies terror bombed the civilian city of Dresden. The allies waited until the German civilians exited their bunkers (although most bunkers were so hot, they melted inside of them). Once they exited the bunkers, the allies bombed them.
>>79165663
>"terror bombed "
>"civilian city"
>>79165663
>waited until the German civilians exited their bunkers
How could they have known?
>>79158530
>>>power gap >Namibia>Zimbabwe>Sweden
>>79165771
Yes it was terror bombing, because it was a fire bombing against civilian targets, because the military targets were too well fortified.
>>79165797
Crowding people are visible aerially.
If you are interested, watch Hellstorm - The Dresden Holocaust. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU5u7aoSxFQ
>>79161824
That type of bomb won't go off from hitting an aircraft in that manner, but their weight will likely damage it if it does actually hit it.
>>79165663
>dry roasted Dresden
I bet that makes you flaming angry.
>>79164343
Eastern Front for keks
>>79165663
haha great bantz
>>79165979
It does, relatives I'm descendant of in Germany, were completely wiped out in a small town in East Germany. When an American Flying Fortress got lost, but still wanted to bomb shit. They came across my ancestor's dandy little town and leveled it.
>>79157262
In terms of skill and technical prowess: Germany.
Until all of their veterans were killed late war Germany easily had the best combination of well-trained, veteran pilots combined with cutting edge technology. High command decisions really fucked the average pilot unfortunately, especially on the western front.
U.S. and U.K. would be tied for #2. Both had well-trained and veteran pilots and good aircraft as well. It's hard to know how U.S. pilots would've fared under more even circumstances. Many engagements saw the U.S. outnumber the Germans between 4 and 10-to-1.
>>79166128
you will rot in hell for saying this
>>79159607
Read some books of aces during WW2, the Germans were the one with the more realistic counts.
>>79157865
P-4 Shooting Star was a better dogfighter.
>>79157262
Germany. Just look up ww2 aces on the wiki and you get the stats. I'd link it but then I'd be doing your idiot ass a favour.
>>79161824
>>79162470
lol'ed irl
they had checks for it, they all just failed. I mean why would you ever fly underneath a giant fucking bomber? Chances are there was something already wrong with it if it was out of formation, dropping altitude, and most likely flying at a different speed. Some of those raids on Berlin also had upwards of 1,000 planes
>>79165663
>>79165797
They didn't know, they just bombed it multiple times and in waves. Dresden is one of the most overrated talking points ever, it might not even crack the top 10 of ruinous city bombing during the war. It's only notable because of the perception that it had no military presence and was a historical cultural landmark.
>Is it true that it was scary being in a city during heavy aerial bombardment?
There's only one possible answer to this and you already know it. If you want to have nightmares about it, read about some of the firestorms that were caused. pic related, it's Tokyo.
>>79162862
>>79157262
Little known fact, but that Wright R-1820 Cyclone engine seen in the video spinning away from the plane at 0:28 was shot to pieces but still flew back to Britain and landed safely on its own, eventually marrying a homely English girl. Hence the nickname, "Flying Fortress"
>>79164848
You wouldn't believe it, but due to having counter turning motors, the P-38 countered the body torque of single engines on other fighters. This means that if using differential throttle settings during maneuvers, the P-38 could outmaneuvre practically all of WW2 single engined fighters. Remember, P-38 went up against Japanese fighters and trashed them, and the Americans had a touring instructor pilot group to teach these advanced fighting techniques. Yep, both P-38 and P-47 had steep learning curves and were very expensive, but in the hands of competent pilots were kings of the sky.
>>79166420
Read thread. Most of their kills were against Russians with only a few hours of flight time. The USSR air force was hit the worst by Stalin's purges and by the initial attack by the germans. The USSR had to remake their air force from scrap. They were sending pilots up into combat with only 4 or 5 hours of flight training; mostly take off and landing.
>>79166132
>An average B-17 Group could be expected to place 32.4% of its bombs within 1000 feet of the aiming point
>One B-17 levels a town
citation heavily needed
>>79157262
This webm is from the series of documantary "The world at war", specifically from the part 12 "Whirlwind: Bombing Germany (September 1939 – April 1944)" if anyone is intersted.
These documentaries won't teach you a lot of things about WW2 but they have some pretty awesome archives footage.
>>79166420
>wanting to discuss things on a "message" / image board
My bad.
>>79166658
You're not going to get one, he's just some leb cunt who hates Anglos.
>>79161824
The bombardier doesn't see directly below the aircraft. His bombsite is tracking out in front of the aircraft at a significant angle.
The aircraft are supposed to be in a very particular formation to prevent this from happening. Wingmen are taught to follow their formation leader no matter what unless they can see an impending mid-air collision. The formation leaders are taught to stay in their position relative to the squadron leader no matter what. It gave the best chance for survival and hitting the target. However, if a formation leader became confused or disoriented this could potentially happen.
We recruited thousands of pilots in WWII, not everyone is as talented or smart as everyone else. There will always be some units where the leadership is less skilled or intelligent than is desirable. Ultimately you have to make a choice and put someone in the seat.
>>79163365
His soviet capture and resistance is even more inspiring.
What a badass.
>>79166443
>read about some of the firestorms that were caused
I like Hamburg
Phosphorus is always fun
>Hence the nickname, "Flying Fortress"
Richard Williams, a reporter for the Seattle Times, coined the name "Flying Fortress" when the Model 299 was rolled out bristling with multiple machine gun installations.
It was more about the armament then survivability, funnily enough it was survivable enough to live up to its name
>>79158305
And even the good Russian pilots were in inferior aircraft for most of the war.
>>79157913
Battle for Britain was a complete waste, and the Mediterranean was fuvked from the start because lack of good troops and supply.
Luftwaffe did surprisingly well considering how cucked they were here.
>>79166658
depends on the town. if it's 10 houses huddled together it's entirely possible. it takes one bomb to level a house.
>>79158646
There were some very skilled German aces who fought quasi excusively against the RAF and the USAF though, for example Adolf Galland (pic related), 104 victories mainly against the RAF during the Battle of Britain or Hans-Joachim Marseille, 158 victories mainly in North Africa.
>>79167053
Here is the pic
>>79167000
That's what it was.
>>79163365
Sauce?
Been looking for a memoir of his for a while
>>79167053
He wiki page says he 96 kills over a 3 year period.
The battle of britian was a specific battle and there's no way he got 104 kills in a few weeks.
wehraboo btfo
>>79162470
Nice to see you enjoying yourself attacking a strawman.
What I was trying to imply there is that area would have had to have been in some way accessible to the crew, surely they could have known and even looked through the bomb bay doors themselves and saw that they were about to drop a bunch of bombs onto the plane flying below them.
>>79166443
>they had checks for it, they all just failed. I mean why would you ever fly underneath a giant fucking bomber?
That's what I mean, it's retarded, how could they possibly not know they were about to drop a bunch of bombs on the plane below them and how did the plane below them not notice they were flying under the bomb bay doors of the plane above them. It's a fucking stupid formation, surely you'd want to fly level with eachother or if you are going to fly at different altitudes fucking spacing is a must.
There's absolutely no reason why they needed to fly that close together. I'm angry at that picture, the people involved are fucking retards.
>>79164454
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2053rank.html
>>79167412
Accidents happen, in general bomber crews and pilots were pretty smart. But when so many raids were conducted by so many planes, there are bound to be fuck ups.
>>79166229
![BB213W[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/6LtpoRU.jpg "BB213W[1].jpg")
>>79167610
Imagine having to explain that to a commanding officer.
>Sir, I must regrettably inform you that there has a blue on blue incident in the air on our last sortie
>dear god man how bad is it
>we lost a B-17 flying fortress
>Christ almighty what happened
>well, you see sir, we bombed them.... in the air
>>79167340
In his book "The First and the Last" (really interesting book btw), it's written 104 victories.
He had several undeclared victories (~30) though, since he flew and fought when he was forbidden to fly (at the end of the Battle of Britain) and he didn't declared his victories during this period, so it's safe to assume that he had more than 104 victories.
>>79168111
>He had several undeclared victories
If they weren't declared then who recorded them dipshit
>magical reasons to increase my dindu nothing wrong nazi numbers
>>79168111
>The First and the Last
you know the german title? (if there is one)
>>79164666
fucking epic
>>79157262
>pre mach speed aerial combat
>pre heat seeking projectile
who cares
>>79168562
>He doesn't want to throw rope into another plane's propeller as a form of aerial combat during WW1
>>79159607
Sorry Britbongs but for the question OP stated there can be no other answer than the Nazis.
Your counterargument that they were sortieing nonstop is just bullshit and doesn't prove any point.
Rather the fact they managed to score victories against one fighter after another, including against seasoned opponents and still survived this long speaks more than anything for their skills and the technical strengths of their planes.
>Credited with six kills in 11 minutes against nine Mk IIB Tomahawks of No. 5 Squadron SAAF
>Three of Marseille's adversaries were SAAF aces: Cecil Golding, Robin Pare and Louis C Botha
>Marseille's 151 claims in North Africa included:[149]
> 101 Curtiss P-40 Tomahawk/Kittyhawk fighters;
> 30 Hawker Hurricane fighters;
> 16 Supermarine Spitfire fighters;
> Two Martin A-30 Baltimore bombers;
> One Bristol Blenheim bomber; and
> One Martin Maryland bomber.
>>79167412
>surely they could have known and even looked through the bomb bay doors themselves
so the picture could be of some idiot falling out of the bomb bay?
Sorry bruh but you're being a millennial retard. The plane is obviously out of formation and flying at an incorrect speed. As I said, they did have all kinds of checks for it, they just all failed. Coordinating thousands of people is not easy. Those planes are huge and not exactly very maneuverable. Keep in mind that they were being shot at by artillery guns aimed upwards the whole time.
Terrible accidents happen sometimes even in the best of circumstances.
some more info and better pictures of it are here:
http://ww2db.com/photo.php?list=sp&sp=series&image_id=17715
>>79168859
>there can be no other answer than the Nazis.
You lost every major air engagement you ever fought. By the end of the war, unescorted bombers were flying over Germany night and day with no fear of interceptors.
As usual, Germany loses.
>>79169271
>>79168987
>On 4 April 1945, he shot down two Allied bombers for his final two victories, before destroying a third by ramming with his damaged aircraft after having run out of ammunition
>>79157913
>German
>Scrolling
>German
>Still scrolling
German
>Still scrolling
>One Soviet ace
lol at those americucks at the bottom tho
>>79169271
I dont think you understand OP's question.
>As usual, Germany loses.
Pretty sure we all lost that one, champ.
>>79169271
Nice evading OPs question, which was the whole point.
But to take your bait: Day raids were fairly rare, and at this point of course Luftwaffe was decimated in resources already.
Nothing about this proves anything about the supposed superiority of RAF pilots and equipment.
>>79168522
Die Ersten und die Letzten
>>79169570
>Pretty sure we all lost that one, champ.
No, I think Germany lost when they surrendered unconditionally.
>>79168859
>"Just look at this ace"
Yet another ace about whom there are serious questions with regards to the veracity of claimed victories.
The Luftwaffe is yet another arm of the German military which does simply not live up to the hype, they were a professional and formidable force, but nowhere near what people vainly wish they were (this disparity between expectation and reality may perhaps explain constant German failure in war though).
>>79169646
You lost. You have literally never won a war in your history.
>>79169754
You are not very bright I take it?
Canada was, we were the ones who destroyed the American airforce and fucking halted their ability to attack China for a good 2 months
>>79168365
That's why I said 104 victories. He didn't declared them, they don't count. I just thought it was worth mentionning them.
Anyway, he was far better than every American pilot ever, so show some respect nigger
>>79165941
Relax my mongol friend
Finns were good against fucking peasant soviet airmen that probably had only few hours of flying experience.
>>79169797
Is this the beady eyed anglo turkroach doing reverse shitposting?
>>79169797
Nobody argues about us having lost WW2.
But you lost this argument the moment you diverted from the whole topic and you keep doing it, retard.
>>79157913
Not trying to belittle their accomplishments but a good portion of German aces were born from basically farming kills on vastly inferior early war Russian aircraft.
In the case of the US we would normally pull experienced pilots off the front lines to train new pilots.
>>79169797
Pretty sure Bismark won a war against the French after "Germany" was a thing, but my timeline could be off.
>>79169666
thanks satan
how could i not know this...
>>79159071
>Kamikaze pilots are a myth, they never meant to crash
Can't help cheering them on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-Kia79GyWU
>>79168987
Magnificent valor...
>>79167000
fine, i'll poke more holes in the story:
a single B-17 would be unlikely to "get lost" from a formation of hundreds
a single B-17 would also be unlikely to go rogue from same formation to bomb random shit because it would be suicidal
a single B-17 might have turned back to base if it received damage to engines, fuel tanks or control surfaces, and might also dump its bombs to lose weight and because they wouldn't want to be flying alone with thousands of pounds of high explosives in their belly with German interceptors and flak around
it's unlikely they meant to bomb the quaint town of Arschfick Nirgends, or that they could've even if they wanted to, because the bombs from a single plane will be carried by winds in random directions
i'm sorry Hans, but your family was not specifically selected for extermination by Major General Doolittle
![B17_cutB[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/jc1Vzhg.jpg "B17_cutB[1].jpg")
>>79169153
Still playing with that strawman eh?
I happen to know that the interior design of some heavy bombers would have had fairly open access to the bomb bay door areas, it would have been quite easy to go over and just look through them.
>>79170299
No problem. It's a great book. Galland writes pretty well. His experience is very singular : he fought in Spain, in Poland, in France, during the Battle of Britain and with a Messerschmitt 262 at the end of the war, thus he has a great fighting experience. But he was also General der Jagdflieger after the Battle of Britain and until the end of the war, thus he also had a great commander experience.
>>79168111
>he flew and fought when he was forbidden to fly
Hans Ulrich Rudel was similarly forbidden to fly near the war's end. Flew anyway. Master of close air support and anti-tank tactics. Performed miracles with his stuka Ju 87. Wasn't adequately repentant in the post war years.
>>79170927
Related. B-17 Bomb Bay catwalk.
>>79170927
>>79171527
Thanks for confirming, I guess.
>>79163470
Just saying, isn't speed pretty good in a dogfight because you can just outrun enemy fighters and keep strafing then?
>>79169797
>ignoring the fact that Germany was formed through wars that they won
Over 25 finnish pilots on that list.
Now go and see what planes we flew and what was against us.
Finnish airforce was simply the best...after germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Air_Force
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS6EGm4ojDE
>>79172752
Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DdTRPnSHwU
>Major Richard I Bong
>Top US ace
This guy has a bridge in my city and I always wondered who he was because the name cracked me up.
>>79159382
Saw a doco on that plane. Someone actually died flying a prototype of it.
>>79172837
At the beginning of the Winter War, the Finnish Air Force was equipped with only 17 bombers and 31 fighters.
On paper, this force should have been no match for the attacking Soviet Red Air Force.
However, the Finnish Air Force had already adopted the Finger-four formation in mid-30s,which was to be found to be much more effective formation than the Vic formation that many other countries were still using when WWII began.
Ilmari Juutilainen, Ace. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUIVR-1zcj0
>>79172207
It can be but not when your cruising speed is like 2x faster than your enemy's top speed. It means that no matter what they WILL be turning faster than you all the time unless the jet puts itself into fucking stall speeds.
Basically the airframe of the plane that is designed to fly faster will control like shit at slower speeds and it WILL need to slow down to keep its sights trained on an agile prop fighter. Overshooting and accidentally ending up with your enemy on your tail would be quite likely in an Me262 vs Spitfire situation. The spitfire might not win because it can't keep up and finish the job, but the 262 would never want to get tangled in a dogfight with a spit.
>>79158530
> Finland
> didn't even produce its own aeroplanes
>>79172752
>Finnish airforce was simply the best...after germany.
Your fighters were good, but you were not fighting at the same scale as the British, the Americans or the Japanese. You can't really compare the Finnish airforce and the RAF
>>79169543
Yea, and there would be at least four Emus on that list before there would ever be an Aussie
>>79172602
You're claiming Germany won wars before Germany existed.
What kind of logic is that, Colgate?
>>79157262
Luffwaffe early and middle.
USAF late.
>>79173259
>werent fighting at the same scale.
Dude, we fought against soviets...wanna see the scales?
Soviet
3,880 aircraft
Finland
114 aircraft
>>79158530
If we're talking about the fighters, the British were probably better overall than the Americans
