Post yfw Orthodox and Catholics think you need works for salvation, and that faith alone is not sufficient
>>78904608
Faith without works is dead.
Source: Bible
You should read it.
>>78904608
TFW luther is wrong on sola scriptura
>As long as I buy box seats at Joel Osteen's® Mega Church™ I can be saved!
>>78904903
>Faith without works is dead.
>Source: Bible
>You should read it.
Debunked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrBe_3Ql2NQ
>>78905396
>the Bible is the inspired word of God
>the Bible is wrong
Pick one. I'll give you a hint, you, and these people, are wrong. Not the Bible.
>>78905332
>Implying the Catholic Church isn't one big multi-millennial robbery
>>78905500
Checked.
Wew, as if it couldn't be anymore obvious that you didn't watch the video. Come on, lad.
>>78904608
Post yfw there are people on /pol/ who worship a kike popsicle that promises them eternity with millions of shitskins.
>>78904903
"Faith without works is dead."
Good thing Jesus has the power to resurrect the dead if you just have faith in Him. (John 3:16)
>>78905790
Don't need to.
>>78905879
Faith is what makes salvation possible. You can have all of the faith in the world. If you go around killing people, raping people, and all sorts of evil vile things, your faith won't do anything for you. It will be dead. You won't be saved.
Keep telling yourself that though. You fall into the palm of Satan, which is exactly what he wants. That is too bad. It is such a shame the Bible gives such clear instructions, yet you ignore them, or engage in blasphemous apologetics to justify your position.
>>78904608
if sola scriptura is the ultimate rule, why did this idiot deleted some books from canon because reasons?
>>78906441
Ayy lmaos
>>78906384
Sola Fide is stupid
>>78906384
>Faith is what makes salvation possible. You can have all of the faith in the world. If you go around killing people, raping people, and all sorts of evil vile things, your faith won't do anything for you. It will be dead. You won't be saved.
Wrong. Jesus will forgive you for anything if you repent. Also, the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon. You're going to Hell if you don't repent and divest yourself from Satan's "church"
>>78906769
Is Ignatius part of Satan's church?
>>78906769
Judged by works lad. You didn't even read your Bible. Not Catholic.
>You're going to hell
Wouldn't expect anything less from a heretic. Did you even pay attention to what Jesus said? I'm thinking not. That is too bad.
>>78904608
>be early Christians
>collect writings about Jesus so you don't have to rely on oral traditions
>call it bible and provide explanations by your church leaders for the stories
>1500 years later
>some dude says it's only sola scriptura
>chaos ensues because everybody interprets the bible like he fucking pleases
>500 years more
>women are now priests and gays can marry
Sola Fide is retardation.
Sola Scripture is pretty good though.
>Trust me goy, I'm totally the unbroken line from Peter.
Yeah, nah.
>>78907252
this
not to mention all the slaughter of catholics by protestants.
>By their fruits you will recognize them
>>78906384
>Don't need to.
You admit your intellectual (or faithful) dishonesty.
>>78907074
Orthodox? That's even worse. Orthodoxy is the biggest meme on this board, it's literally a meme being spread by the Russian government to make the "Alt-Right" more compliant to its will. You just like calling people heretics, don't you?
If you think works are required to get into heaven, then basically what you're saying is "Jesus' power alone can't save me, I need to do some of the work myself" i.e. you don't believe that God works miracles. You are an atheist heathen.
>>78907252
There's only one way to interpret the Bible. The Protestant way.
>>78904608
Look mate, I am atheist too, but I have the dignity to come out and say it if someone asks.
>I believe in God and Jesus but I follow their word selectively and when it fits me
>Also I dont do works of salvation because it is hard
Orthodox and Catholics I can respect, they may have different beliefs than mine but they stand by them
Protestant are straight up morrons
>>78904608
>Protestants
WEW LADDIE
>>78907474
I'll stick to the Bible my friend. Did Jesus ever say do whatever the fuck you want, as long as you have faith it will be okay? No, he never said that. Did Jesus live like that either? No, no he didn't. Did the apostles? No.
>>78907581
Explain this and >>78906865
>>78907581
>evolution isn't real
>earth is 6000 years old
>humans and dinosaurs lived alongside each other
>Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve
>buy my sick ass self-help book, only $9,99. It's what Jesus would have wanted
>>78907698
Jesus said you are a moron
>>78907545
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
>>78907252
This. Protestants are the best goys ever
>>78907769
What are you arguing for? That faith alone saves people or not?
>>78907698
Skip to 43:58 James white explains exactly what St.James was talking in verse 2:20.
>>78907877
Show me where in the Early Church did anyone believe in Sola Fide and a non realist view of the Eucharist. I am waiting
>>78907939
James white is a sack of shit. And the mere fact that James had made the statement entails that he is addressing and presupposing autonomous persons as his audience. But this opposes Calvinism!
>>78907252
Because there are no women priests in the catholic church?
Because the catholic church has such deep connection to Jesus that it has been infiltrated by commies and homos?
>>78907951
I've been arguing against faith alone this whole time. Learn to read. Also what you just said about Jesus is disgusting.
>>78907939
No, he explains what he thinks James was saying which is clearly not what James was saying. Because if James was saying something different he would have said it himself. I don't care about how you justify being lazy and not helping people because you think your "faith" will save you when we all know actions speak louder than words.
>>78907877
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
"...not by works alone lest any man should boast."
Saving the criminal on the cross, cleansing the blind, healing the leprous, raising the dead... all by faith.
Works. Fuck works. You are repaid in this lifetime for your wickedness. It's what's in your heart? Does it seek after the Lord? Does it desire the Lord? Does it love the Lord? IF it does He will find you in any dark place and raise you up. Guaranteed. No matter what you've done. Imputed righteousness. There's no getting away from it. You are marked for life.
>>78908088
>Because there are no women priests in the catholic church?
Yes, there are no women priests in the Catholic Church, you uneducated sack of shit.
>Because the catholic church has such deep connection to Jesus that it has been infiltrated by commies and homos?
Compared to the Protestants we're holding out far better. But we're not as good as the Orthodox, I will give you that.
>>78908252
>Does it desire the Lord? Does it love the Lord?
Oh yes Lord, suck my nipples
>>78908107
Pretty gay
>>78908252
I believe that having Faith in our Lord is about a Relationship not Religion.
Jesus did of his most famous teachings outside of the Church, which was called the Sermon on the Mount.
>>78908014
>And the mere fact that James had made the statement entails that he is addressing and presupposing autonomous persons as his audience. But this opposes Calvinism!
In words, you can't address the topic of James 2:14-26 against Mr.White, so you have derail the person who resents the argument
Cool, keep doing that, because you got nothing.
>>78908107
>No, he explains what he thinks James was saying which is clearly not what James[the Just] was saying
This is the only way to make harmony with the letters of St.Paul and the teachings of Jesus(like John 3:16) and the greek text of the book. Or otherwise, we going have contradictions.
>I don't care about how you justify being lazy
I don't care much your heresy of misrepresenting the gospel, but you catholics are going to do that anyway.
>mfw
>>78908252
>not by works alone
>alone
You need both. Who am I going to believe? James, or you? I'm gonna go with James.
>>78908372
You make zero sense.
>>78908455
I'm not a Catholic.
>>78908455
I did. James white, being a Calvinist cannot believe in the autonomy of persons. According to his theology, nobody have the ability of self determination. But many verses of PAUL and JAMES contradicts this and presupposes the self determination of their recipients!
>tfw no strong religion like Islam
>>78908640
Why do you even bother arguing with Calvinists? Everything they say and believe goes against the Bible.
>>78908449
Thank you. The history of the church and the opinions of it's various saints and apostles are secondary to the central message of salvation for me, and it seems to me anyone spreading salvation via works is a Pharisee masquerading as a believer.
>>78908455
Paul says that he works his salvation in fear and trembling. Kinda makes the whole predestination bs pointless
>>78908701
Because I hate them
>>78908626
How about the Apostle Paul? "Not by works alone" was a quotation from Ephesians 2:8 and 2:9 which makes this issue perfectly plain.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast."
>>78908449
The Church didn't even exist yet. My goodness.
>>78908769
You can't hate them. You can't help them either.
>>78908813
NOT by works ALONE.
NOT by faith ALONE.
You need BOTH. I can't make this any clearer.
>>78908813
Explain this. Oh right you can't and the best part of it is that it's not from some sophist but actual academic work on Paul
>>78906769
So basically sin, repent, repeat.
I'm not a Christian but protestants can give me a damned headache.
>>78908912
Anything that adds to what Jesus did on the cross is self righteousness and is as filthy rags AND is a different gospel
>>78908912
But you skip over the part where Paul makes it clear that grace and faith are what save you and not from anything having to do with yourself or your own efforts. The work has already been done. Christ did it. It is accomplished. The idea of you going out and earning your salvation is an ego trip.
>>78909068
>>78909074
Literally both of you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIXkoMvYPJE
>>78909068
You speak of Protestants
>>78904608
Guys, do you have any working links to download The Orthodox Study Bible, for free?
“A Christian is a perfectly free lord of all, subject to none. A Christian is a perfectly dutiful servant of all, subject to all.”
Since salvation comes from the Lord through faith and repentance, we can freely do works without the purpose of being saved. Catholics will only do works for their own salvation and not for the benefit of other people, you sicken me.
>>78908640
>>78908736
>James white, being a Calvinist cannot believe in the autonomy of persons.
Okay, I'll give that to you and I'm not a Calvinist myself.
But that doesn't mean you haven't overturn the claims James White made about James 2:14-26.
>Paul says that he works his salvation in fear and trembling.
He also saved only grace and faith in acts 15:10-11
>>78909119
This is insanity, and it perfectly fits the disturbed and angry mind of a vengeful /pol/lack. God loves every soul. Every soul, and intends if He can to save every single one. To that end he provided salvation available to all at any time free of price.
>>78909282
I did. The mere fact that the statement entails an address to an autonomous agent refutes White himself who cannot believe in such things.
>>78909395
Are you a Calvinist or not?
>>78909282
Paul's statement refers to faith responding to Grace, without which none can be saved. That isn't sola Fide and it's evident from Paul's other statements
>>78909268
Luther is wrong as PAUL and Scriptures show
>>78909441
I believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.
>>78909119
Didnt you guys remove the second commandment so you could bow to statues?
>>78909074
Faith requires effort for only active agents can have faith and MAINTAIN such faith in the face of doubt and danger. But this makes sola Fide pointless!
>>78909709
Better explain this
>>78909654
Calvinist or not?
>>78909709
Go watch that video again and again until it sinks in.
>>78904608
Because works are an outgrowth of faith where as faith out works is empty.
>>78909725
Maintain faith? Here we go again. Trying to earn God's grace. Once a relationship has been established it cannot be broken. The Lord will never forsake you.
>>78909913
I have no interest in the petty squabbles between religious denominations. None of that concerns me. John Calvin is not my Lord.
If what we do in this life has no meaning, why did God create the world at all ? Why not just give everyone a survey like "do you believe in the Lord? Y/N" and judge us based on that?
Faith is worthless if you don't act on it.
>>78910070
Do you believe in what Calvin said?
>>78909913
Some Catholics believe in a holy Jesus, but their faith is made impotent by the rest of what they have to believe- which is sacrilege.
>>78909949
False. It can. Paul made statements that shows this by talking about judgement by works, running a race and working out his salvation in fear and trembling. Those decimates any notion of OSAS as the act of struggle or effort opposes it as shown by your own words here. You
Contradict scriptures. Well done
>>78909412
>The mere fact that the statement entails an address to an autonomous agent refutes White himself who cannot believe in such things.
Okay. Let's make your statement our consensus. That doesn't mean you've addressed the argument, because some else can use the same claims Mr.White use and not be a Calvinist.
Only once the claims has been refuted (by evidence) the argument is debunked and I would like someone (hint, hint) to do just that.
>Paul's statement refers to faith responding to Grace, without which none can be saved. That isn't sola Fide and it's evident from Paul's other statements
Have you ever heard of sola gratia? its one of the 5 Solas.
Let's not also forget Acts 16:31.
>>78910097
What you do in this life means everything. If you think that you can just go out and pollute yourself with sin and not pay a price for it then you have been misled... but salvation itself is not dependent on what you did, it's dependent upon the relationship you established with the Lord.
>>78904608
They have a useful religion that doesn't allow degeneracy. You have some stupid shit which doesn't serve you at all. Your religion is just as productive as having an imaginary friend. I have respect for Orthodox and Catholics, but you guys are fucking useless and are responsible for a great majority of Christian degeneracy.
Sectarian fuckers are ruining the reputation of Christianity.
>>78910220
I already did refute James White's argument by simply showing Paul's presupposition of efforts in Salvation and how the fact that James is addressing autonomous agents entails that these agents need to act in accordance to their faith rather than pay lip service. So no, you answered nothing and White is wrong. Also, since Paul talks about effort
And works positively, the whole sola Gratia and any presupposition that works are not important to salvation or of the individual in such act is in fact wrong
>>78904608
Faith without works it's not really a faith.
>>78910200
What God has established cannot be undone by the hand of man.
>>78910187
Keep watching that video.
>>78910220
Explain this
>>78910462
You are not answering the argument. By your own words you entail no free will since in order for your statement to be so, God will made it such that OSAS is the case which entails predestination In which God made creation such that there is no self determination in creatures but they act such that his plan is realised.
What am I asking myself is why the focus of this discussion is being placed on the church and religion and not on the work of salvation that was done on the cross by Christ?
>>78904608
Catholics believe in grace alone, not faith alone (or just faith and works)... ultimately salvation rests in grace, and you better hope you live in conformity to God's will and the nature he has imbued you with in order to achieve that... the modern conception of "faith" that protestants adhere to is simply crude and sterile. Better straighten up and fly right faggot
>>78910635
Acts 16:30
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Acts 16:31
"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
>>78910692
Maybe you are a retard incapable of thought protdrone!
>>78910842
Believe which in Paul's own thought entails submission to Christ and OBEDIENCE. That entails effort. We know this from Paul's overall thought
A Church Father believing in Sola Fide
If you don't have Works, you don't have Faith. Works are the fruit of Faith.
Works don't save you if you don't do them with Faith. Being a "good person" isn't enough. You have to be doing good in Christ's name.
Saying "I believe Jesus Christ is my personal saviour" is not enough to save you. If you aren't following Christ's example then you don't actually have Faith in him. Faith without works is a contradiction in terms. If you don't have Works, you don't really believe in Christ.
>>78911025
But wait!!
>>78911121
Holy shit!! There's NO SOLA FIDE AFTER ALL!!!
>>78910954
Enough. The work of salvation was intended to be available for EVERYONE, and so the message is a simple one. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
>>78907342
That's why you don't have to trust a man but the church, and the orthodox are the ones that have recognized this over 1000 years ago. Besides, what has that line to do with proper teachings?
>>78907545
No, it's the only xian religion that has remained faithful to its original ideals.
No, what's required is to prove thru your actions that you actually truly believe in and follow what you declare to believe, that you aren't just a demon painted in xian colours.
>>78907581
which way, exactly? Because there are literally millions of protestant interpretations and almost all are incompatible with eachother.
>>78907769
And that's why the orthodox know and treat it as symbolic - we aren't cannibals after all.
>>78908449
And that's because there was no church back then, just a small sect.
>>78909268
Mark 13:21 “Then if someone says to you, ‘Look, here’s the Christ,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it.
22 False christs and false prophets will appear, and they will offer signs and wonders in order to deceive, if possible, those whom God has chosen.
23 But you, watch out! I’ve told you everything ahead of time.
>>78911241
All that also requires obedience, effort and work
>>78911275
You gypsy! The Orthodox Church takes it literally like the fathers. Any symbol isn't like a mere metaphor as William Crockett notes(see pic)
>>78911396
The pic you replied to gypsy
>>78911326
You do those things for your own sake. You obey the Lord because it's right, not because you expect to be rewarded for it. Joy in righteousness and Christ is the reward of works, not salvation. SALVATION is the work of the Lord, and the Lord only. You played no part.
>>78911275
>And that's why the orthodox know and treat it as symbolic - we aren't cannibals after all.
You are clearly not Orthodox. The Church denies the Latin idea of "transubstantiation" but does affirm the truth that during the Eucharist we are consuming the very real Body and Blood of Christ.
t. zealous Orthodox
>>78911473
No one talks about reward. Just that obesience and effort is required. You deny these
>>78911473
Respond to this: >>78911083
>>78908088
Yep, infiltrated by freemasons thx to those dumb european revolutions.
French revolution killed an insane amount of good clergy dudes, which allow for a weakened catholic Church to be infiltrated then destroyed from inside (cf current pope).
>>78904608
k
Gotta celebrate my advents nigga. Can't have that fanatic stuff.
>>78911553
I live in a block that is literally door to door to a church and i've been in it in the last one year alone than you have been in yours in your entire life so trust me on this - they don't magically transform into it, they just assume their properties and become symbols of it. And every pope and deacon will tell you exactly the same thing.
>>78905396
So you can rape and murder, while believing in god, and find salvation?
>>78911587
>>78911594
You played absolutely no role in the work of salvation, and you play absolutely no role in it now. The work was done, and you believed or you didn't, but you cannot take it back. The gift is available now to everyone and once it's given it is not taken back.
>>78904903
>Faith without works is dead.
Yeah, when it comes to sharing your faith with others, which is what James was talking about to other people who were already Christian. Those works don't deliver salvation though; faith does.
Also the Catholic church actually doesn't believe in works for salvation. It believes certain sins can remove you from a state of Salvation. (Also wrong though)
>>78911704
James was not referring to salvation here he was referring to the Christian way of life POST salvation.
>>78910414
The whole gospel from Jesus(just like in John 3:15) is based that a person is saved by faith through the grace of the atonement and repent of sins then live a godly life as a saved individual.
Now, what St.James, the just's whole thesis is: if a person is saved their life would show through their behavior.
That's is not to say a person would become saved on the bases of works, otherwise the cross would be unnecessary.
>>78910495
St.Moses is a well structured and pious guy. A faithful man of God.
Yes.
>>78911909
You didn't respond to it.
>>78911891
340. How are we to understand the word transubstantiation?
In the exposition of the faith by the Eastern Patriarchs, it is said that the word transubstantiation is not to be taken to define the manner in which the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord; for this none can understand but God; but only thus much is signified, that the bread truly, really, and substantially becomes the very true Body of the Lord, and the wine the very Blood of the Lord. In like manner John Damascene, treating of the Holy and Immaculate Mysteries of the Lord, writes thus: “It is truly that Body, united with Godhead, which had its origin from the Holy Virgin; not as though that Body which ascended came down from heaven, but because the bread and wine themselves are changed into the Body and Blood of God. But if thou seekest after the manner how this is, let it suffice thee to be told that it is by the Holy Ghost; in like manner as, by the same Holy Ghost, the Lord formed flesh to himself, and in himself, from the Mother of God; nor know I aught more than this, that the Word of God is true, powerful, and almighty, but its manner of operation unsearchable.” (J. Damasc. Theol. lib. iv. cap. 13, § 7.)
Longer Catechism of the Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church by St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow (1830)
>>78911909
That wasn't what PAUL said. He only said no Salvation without God. He Still demands effort and obedience in response to God. Stay mad cuck
>>78911903
Yes. But those crimes will not go unpunished.
eh, i can accept people believeing in God, like a Creator of the Universe type of deal, but are there really people here who believe in "salvation" and the original sin and actual religious dogma?
i mean come on guys
>>78912042
I thought god was forgiving. If I ask for forgiveness for those sins I can gain salvation and go to heaven, the same place mother Theresa is, even though I'm a criminal correct?
>>78912006
Look at how vague your statements here is. We only know your shit is different from non sola Fide thanks to the fact that you said that a person isn't saved on the basis of works. But this is ridiculous when James and PAUL both clearly show forth the importance of effort in Salvation itself. He didn't say that you are already saved and all is done for you, he says that someone did something and we must work with that someone. With this sola Fide is debunked as the role of works in salvation is outlined and given importance. It is in fact required
>>78912151
It's not about religion. It's about you and Christ.
>>78912006
Clement of Rome compares the clergy of his church to that of the OT priesthood. Stay ignorant loser
>>78912151
We believe because of Christ. There's plenty of historical evidence for his existence, for the truth of the Gospel accounts of his life, and for the reality of his resurrection from the dead.
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/historical-evidence-for-the-resurrection
>>78912233
Agnostic here, so I could clearly be wrong but:
You're supposed to accept God in your heart and go straight to purgatory.
>>78912291
It's about Jesus laughing at your stupidity
>>78912233
When you commit acts of violence or theft or any other abusive action towards another human being, you are committing those actions towards your brother, against yourself, and against Christ. No one does wrong and comes out unscathed. You are damaging your spirit. The punishment is immediate and enduring. But the Lord will come for you if you believe in him and wash you clean if your desire for him and your belief in him was true.
For the actions we take in this life, we are punished or rewarded; in this life. Eternal salvation is a separate matter.
>>78912341
well then, don't you think he'll be mad about that whole business with telling god's representative on earth to fuck off and creating the Church of England?
>>78912546
But MUH OSAS!!
>>78911909
But it's not a gift, it's an offer, and you must be worthy of it or it will be withhold.
>>78912023
Then we agree to disagree.
>>78912558
The church of England was created at the behest of King Henry VIII in rebellion against the papacy.
90% of religion is about secular power on this earth now and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Lord.
>>78904669
why are lesbians (outside of the porn stars) so fat and ugly? If they hate men so much why do they try so hard to look like men?
>>78912710
None of us are worthy. Romans 3:12
Hell, let's go full apologetics...
- Nowhere in the bible does it state faith "alone" justifies, and this new doctrine was not heard of before the 16th century. Why did the Protestant reformers propose it and what authority gave it to them?
-Consider the verse, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in. Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me." Matthew 25:34-36. Are these not examples of good works? Why would Our Lord give them so much emphasis if only faith was of importance?
- Consider the verses, "And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me." Matt 19:16-21. Are the above verses not filled with good works? How much more proof from Scripture do we need to show that Our Lord commanded us to do good works for our salvation?
- Consider the verse, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27. Again here we have more proof that good works are required of us.
>>78912558
I'm Orthodox. Yes, he aught to be angry about it.
>>78912710
This isn't a matter of opinion, there's no agreeing or disagreeing. The Orthodox church teaches the reality of the Eucharistic mystery and this is non-negotiable dogma. I just showed you text from the official Catechism of the Orthodox Church but if you want I can show you thousands of other quotes from the Fathers, from the Councils, and from every Bishop and Presbyter who has ever served in our Church. I suggest that you look into it yourself, however.
He is not present typically, nor figuratively, nor by superabundant grace, as in the other Mysteries, nor by a bare presence, as some of the Fathers have said concerning Baptism, or by impanation, so that the Divinity of the Word is united to the set forth bread of the Eucharist hypostatically, as the followers of Luther most ignorantly and wretchedly suppose.
But truly and really, so that after the consecration of the bread and of the wine, the bread is transmuted, transubstantiated, converted and transformed into the true Body itself of the Lord, Which was born in Bethlehem of the ever-Virgin, was baptized in the Jordan, suffered, was buried, rose again, was received up, sits at the right hand of the God and Father, and is to come again in the clouds of Heaven; and the wine is converted and transubstantiated into the true Blood itself of the Lord, Which as He hung upon the Cross, was poured out for the life of the world.
Orthodox Confession of Dositheus, Patriarch of Jerusalem (1672)
>>78912824
This is why there can only be 2D yuri!!
>>78912884
- Consider the verse, "And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor." 1 Corinthians 3:8. Again this clearly does NOT refer to faith alone, but to labor, which is works.
- Consider the verse, "And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:2 (St Paul). What is charity other than helping the needy? Charity is clearly considered among good works. And in the same Chapter we also see the verse, "And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity." (1 Corinthians 13:13). This clearly puts charity BEFORE faith, so to say "faith alone" is all that is required of us is clearly contrary to Scripture.
- Consider the verse, "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24. How much more plain can it be said that faith alone is not enough for our salvation?
- Consider the verse, "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?" James 2:14. And we see several verses later that the answer to this question is NO.
-Consider the verse, "So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." James 2:17. No explanation is needed for this verse!
- Consider the verse, "But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith." James 2:18. Another extremely obvious verse that proves our point on the subject.
- Consider the verses, "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 2:20-21. No explanation is needed for these verses.
My brother is a moron
>>78912979
Consider the verse, "For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead." James 2:26. How can the Protestant reformers claim faith is sufficient when we read a verse like this with such obvious meaning?
- And finally consider the verse, "Wherefore, brethren, labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election." 2 Peter 1:10
- In summary, justification by faith alone has overwhelming opposition in Scripture. Some Protestants have been known to reference other verses from Scripture in an attempt to show that works are NOT required for our salvation. However if one looks at verses that appear to speak negatively about works, they are clearly referring to works that glorify men and not God. Here we agree; works done to please men do not help with attaining our salvation.
>>78912846
Actually we all are up until the evidence to the contrary. 1 Corinthians 6:11
>>78912911
And even dogma can be interpreted differently - yes, it is the body of god in spirit and fact, but not in actual physical form, even Jesus says exactly that in John 6:51. Besides, the fact that if you took them out of the church and treat them with disrespect they lose that connection should have told you something.
Fedora here
>this whole thread
Are calvinist the lolbertarians of christianity?
>dude, faith alone will fix it
>>78912273
>We only know your shit is different from non sola Fide thanks to the fact that you said that a person isn't saved on the basis of works
...Oooookay. (huh?)
>But this is ridiculous when James and PAUL both clearly show forth the importance of effort in Salvation itself.
And, yet if we accept any other understanding than>>78912006 we going have inconsistencies and contradictions in the books as a whole. like in Luke 7:50
> He didn't say that you are already saved and all is done for you, he says that someone did something and we must work with that someone.
Um, no he didn't.
>With this sola Fide is debunked as the role of works in salvation is outlined and given importance.
And I debunked salvation by works and its a fact.
>>78912335
Hahaha, You call me ignorant, yet you don't for certain who wrote the epistle. Actually, no one knows for sure.
Some say it's the same person who wrote the book of Hebrews based on literary skill.
>compares the clergy of his church to that of the OT priesthood
Yet he only calls the "priest" he refers to in the current church is Jesus, the High priest.
>>78907805
/thread
>>78913463
St Ignatius of Antioch
"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God…They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
St Justin Martyr
"For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).
St Cyril of Jerusalem
"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ…[Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so,…partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul" (ibid., 22:6, 9).
>>78913711
There's only a contradiction because of your crap intepretation back up by nobody but your shit theology. I have shown how PAUL and James statements entail the role and requirement of effort and works in Salvation as a manifestation of faith. The use of Abraham as an example is evident. Abraham obeys God on the basis of his faith. He did not go full passive like James White and you believe. Well done being delusional idiot
>>78913954
St Ambrose of Milan
"Perhaps you may be saying, ‘I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?’ It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use!…Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ" (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]).
Blessed Augustine of Hippo
"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).
Council of Ephesus
"We will necessarily add this also. Proclaiming the death, according to the flesh, of the only-begotten Son of God, that is Jesus Christ, confessing his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension into heaven, we offer the unbloody sacrifice in the churches, and so go on to the mystical thanksgivings, and are sanctified, having received his holy flesh and the precious blood of Christ the Savior of us all. And not as common flesh do we receive it; God forbid: nor as of a man sanctified and associated with the Word according to the unity of worth, or as having a divine indwelling, but as truly the life-giving and very flesh of the Word himself. For he is the life according to his nature as God, and when he became united to his flesh, he made it also to be life-giving" (Session 1, Letter of Cyril to Nestorius [A.D. 431]).
>>78913711
Clement still views the clergy of the Church as a sort of priesthood of sorts. It's evident when he compares the ministry of the church with OT priesthood. Good job being a brainless ignorant twat
>>78913711
Look at the context of Luke 7:50. Look at how stupid you are
Fucking christ Reddit shills. Stop spamming religion threads.
>>78912945
Ultimate redpill
>>78914528
There's nothing wrong with Christians in this board
Being a Christian white straight male is the most political incorrect thing of this last decade
>mfw
>>78914914
Check the catalog Jose. We're being spammed with religion related threads. It's easy bait so it's working. Open your damn eyes.
>>78914914
Nah, christians are pussies now. They're basically just sane people who go to church once a year on christmas, there's no zeal behind their beliefs anymore. iif they want anyone to give a shit the pope better declare another crusade
>>78914001
Abraham had faith before he did any works-That the whole premise of Paul's argument!
>>78914327
Gee, trying to gain Jesus's favor is somehow a problem/ Wew, lad.
>Look at how stupid you are
"and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."
>>78914098
Not really, first "Clement" chapter 43 only speaks about Moses, the children of Israel and only person who fulfill the office of the priesthood is Jesus Christ. That's the only connection between the text-It's not talking about your catholic """""""""priest"""""""""
>>78915242
That's what makes it political incorrect, very few people is a real christian
>>78915078
Now that you mention it, this is true, there should be some kind of filter or something, also, have you noticed that every time someone brings a thread about the Jews or WWII it gets instantly bumped into oblivion?
>>78915372
Filled of idiotic shit once more. Showing how you know nothing about the Church Fathers and Scripture. Abraham's faith is an active faith shown with works. This is why Paul uses him as an example. James used him as well! So no too bad. The context of Luke 17:50 shows the woman doing something on the basis of faith in Christ. The faith is active, not passive. Time and time again, faith is shown to be more than mere belief but acting in accordance with belief, but this entails effort and destroys Sola Fide
>>78904608
>a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. - James 2:24
Post yfw Martin Luther is in Hades.
>>78904608
Does this mean I can be a disgusting NEET slob and still go to heaven as long as I have faith? Sign me up!
>>78907581
Protestantism has zero authority.
>>78915936
>I value what James says over Jesus
Not surprising you people pray to Mary and the saints instead of God.
>>78916069
>I set Jesus and his Apostle against each other
Not surprising you people are mired in heresy and God has withdrawn his grace which has made you blind.
>>78915372
Read the fucking text again shithead. Clement compares the "ministers appointed by those in Christ" with what Moses had recorded, which is about the OT priesthood which parallels the situation of the clergy in the Corinth. That shows how stupidly ignorant you are of context
>>78916069
>things Jesus said
Calvinism is the only correct view.
The universe is run by a completely sovereign God who gives a saving faith in Christ to those he has chosen from before time.
>>78916371
There's no free will and God caused the Fall
>>78916223
“Yog-Sothoth, the Goat With a Thousand Young, the Lurker at the Theshold.Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the Outer Dark. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread.”
we're doing cool-sounding religious qoutes, right?
>>78916317
The Catholic Church was biblical for quite a time, but drifted further and further into error as time went on.
>>78916371
Why do you even born then?
>>78916521
I agree, God made it so!
>>78916521
until Constantine isn't really "a long time"
>>78916424
"There's no free will and God caused the Fall"
Correct!
>>78904608
This whole concept just seems alien to me as a Mormon.
If you have faith you will also act based on it won't you? Or you'll at least try...
>>78916317
John 3:16, bitch nigga.
>>78916565
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:22-23
>>78916721
God made me a gay! He made sin
>>78917063
he made you gay because he already knew you were gonna be a piece of shit
>>78917063
Romans 1:28-31 - And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
>>78916691
>muh Constantine
There would be no Christianity if he didn't legalize it and stop the Arian heresy
>>78904608
Pic is my church. It's very old - almost 1000 years.
I don't mind what denomination anyone has.
The only thing is to follow Christ. Everything will then fall into place.
My faith is High Church Anglican, it's very traditional. But I respect all denominations.
Following Christ is what matters.
>>78915779
>Matthew 5:22
>Believes in a works based religion
>Filled of idiotic shit once more
>idiotic
I guess you want to be condemn by your own doctrine.
>Showing how you know nothing about the Church Fathers and Scripture.
No, it shows that every time you call me an idiot you're only projecting yourself as you never listen to anything anyone else say like a fucking wall.
>Abraham's faith is an active faith shown with works.
That's not what Romans 4:2 said, or Ephesians 2:8-9, etc.
>The faith is active, not passive.
I will agree with you there.
>Time and time again, faith is shown to be more than mere belief but acting in accordance with belief, but this entails effort and destroys Sola Fide
Your whole presupposition is that faith and works are the some thing, but that's not how St.Paul or St.James present it. In fact, every discussion they always speak as the two topics as different. To believe otherwise is to dismantle their arguments.
>"I[Jesus] will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."
Hahaha, yet you reject Calvinism? There's your proof!
>>78917466
>>78917063
God's power is limited by the constraints of binaries
He can no more make a straight you than he could make a white black
It's just not possible
>>78905332
There's a big difference between American and European Protestans.
American Protestant churches are run by greedy fat sociopaths and European Protestant churches are run by weak emotional cucks.
>>78917474
He did not give me up. He made it so that his plan can be fulfilled! He did this before making the universe!
>>78917872
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
James 1:13
God is not the author of sin, your heart is, but God brings forth the wickedness that already exists in your so as to demonstrate your sinfulness.
Yes everything transpires according to his plan.
>>78917539
>Anglican
>Traditional
lmao mate you're just jumped-up protties
>>78917574
Here, no arguments as usual. Romans 4:2 simply warns against arrogance and boasting. It does not entail passivity on Abraham's part. It would be pointless when Abraham's own faith is shown by actions which confirms Paul's own view as well through various statements such as working his salvation in fear and trembling or the mentioning of works. Too bad here we see you ignoring this time and time and time again. In fact when I cited Dunn on this, it was completely ignored. And Dunn is a prominent NT scholar! The wall here is obviously you and your empty skull. Clement of Rome also denies Calvinism as his view of Salvation demands works! An active faith also simply means that one is actually doing works based on his faith, that's all it means. If it is passive, something else is moving the individual. But Sola Fide demands the latter
>>78911982
That is a fucking laughable interpretation.
>Protestant education
You fuckers just don't get it do you? People that commit immoral acts will be repelled from heaven. Not only does the bible say this, but you must also remember that god has written morality on your heart. We all know that someone like the popularized version of Hitler doesn't deserve to go to heaven. We know he deserves punishment. There is no fucking justice on earth mate, despite what you believe. The personification of Hitler is one that God would find repulsive.
>>78918288
God is. He made the fall and I have no free will. This means that the sin is placed there and caused by God through the fall as part of his plan. This is akin to me throwing a ball. The ball's movement is all ultimately charted by me before I throw the ball, especially where it lands. There is nothing the ball itself does that can alter it. In Calvinism all humans are like this
>>78912546
Just by living int he real world, I have learn't that there is no justice in this life. It either happens in the afterlife or it doesn't happen at all.
One person can result in the absolute suffering of millions, and yet in his lifetime he will only experience the suffering of one man, in between the his earthly pleasures. Terrible, terrible men have lived lives of luxury.
>>78915737
Jews and world war two don't promote Christian cuckoldry.
>>78918754
You need to read more and take note of James 1:13 that I posted for instance.
As much as it may seem a contradiction the New Testament outlines that we still have moral responsibility even in the face of a sovereign God, the hearts wickedness comes from the person themselves, not God.
To deny God's sovereignty is to throw God out altogether.
Try reading this - http://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm
>>78909268
>>78918726
"People that commit immoral acts will be repelled from heaven."
Which we're all guilty of. Thank God Christ has saved me and I am justified by his work for by no man's works can any be saved lest some should boast.
Any christians ever seen The Man From Earth?
thoughts?
>>78918754
And at this point your religion makes absolutely no sense. It essentially promotes anarchy.
>>78919721
Sure if you are forgiven you get in to heaven. If you don't ask for that forgiveness however...
It's all fucking bullshit anyway. It's history's biggest bluepill. God is a selfish cunt and so Christians should have no trouble with me being an equally selfish cunt.
>>78919941
Welcome to Calvinism my friend
>>78919281
The NT and Bible never comes close to Calvinism even Augustine himself refused such evil! Like it or not the God you worship is the cause of sin and he is psychopathic and unjust for he dares place blame upon non sentient beings for deeds it itsrlf commits!
>>78920063
Yeah, the point at which your religion is fucking pointless. Absolutely fucking useless. Even biblically it doesn't make sense. A moral being by definition is not immoral. Immorality is defined by immoral acts. A moral being hence cannot commit moral acts, else it will be an imperfectly moral being, or an immoral being. Therefore if God is a moral being, then God cannot commit immoral acts. God has said through the bible that some acts are immoral. If God is the cause of these acts, then he has committed immoral acts. Therefore God is not responsible for these acts.
The bible calls people to live moral lives for the express reason that they need to be told to live moral lives. The God of Calvin in theory should be the God of nihilists, agnostics, atheists and diests. The God of Calvin simply isn't the God of the bible.
>>78904608
This is a picture of a cult. The guy in the robe with the glowing head is the cult leader. The people on the ground around him are his followers.
If the guy wasn't Jesus, you would be able to instantly recognize this as a picture of a cult. You can recognize Mormonism started out as a cult founded by Joseph Smith because you're not a Mormon.
That fact is invisible to Mormons. They can't see what they are in from the inside. It's only visible from the outside. This is the same reason I can see Christianity started as a cult from outside of it, but you can't see that from the inside.
>>78920379
My point exactly
>>78904608
Orthodoxy believe in faith by works is
meme tier, Roman Catholics yes kinda.
From the Orthodox Church of America
https://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/salvation-is-indeed-by-grace
So we, as Orthodox Christians, affirm as clearly and unambiguously as any Lutheran, for example, that “salvation is by grace” and not by our works. Unlike medieval Catholicism, Orthodoxy does not hold that a person can build up a “treasury of merits” that will count in our favor at the Judgment Seat of Christ. What will matter then is our having surrendered our sin to God through confession, and our gestures of love (Mt. 25), together with the unshakable conviction that “Jesus Christ is Lord,” and the unique Way to eternal life.
Orthodoxy does recognize, however, the importance of our “cooperation” with God, what we term “synergy.” “Salvation,” as we usually understand the word, is only the beginning of a pilgrimage that leads us through this life, through our physical death, and into life beyond. Salvation, accomplished by the death and resurrection of Christ, means freedom from the consequences of our sinfulness: separation from the holiness and love of the God who desires only that we be saved and enter into eternal and joyful communion with himself. If we were not continually tempted to fall back into sin, there would be no need for such a “synergy.” Then we could declare, with absolute confidence, “once saved, always saved!” Temptation and spiritual struggle, however, mark every day of our life. And the way we face and, by the grace of God, overcome those forces (demonic powers), is precisely through the “spiritual warfare,” the ascetic struggle that enables us to confront those forces day by day and overcome their destructive influence.
>>78904903
Protestants just remove books they don't like from the Bible
>>78904608
fuck off cuck
>>78918548
Everyone, read his pic including the end.
>But upon Jesus Christ and his righteous alone
>But
Solo Christo and sola gratia solus christus
>which are received through faith alone.
sola fide
>Dunn is a prominent NT scholar!
Yeah, a evangelical scholar who writes books for a "Catholic audience all from a scholarly Protestant perspective."
>Clement of Rome also denies Calvinism as his view of Salvation demands works!
I would like to see you prove it. But the text proved itself by predestining bishops and deacons-however those are jobs which are expected to be fulfilled...so, maybe we're both right?
> An active faith also simply means that one is actually doing works based on his faith, that's all it means.
Only a saved life would behave like as if they have salvation once they've been saved. Like a child maturing into an adult-you should do that sometime.
Everyone, I have proved my case by Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:2-3, John 3:15-16. However, you guys are the ultimate judge for this conversation
My debater says faith are works then claim that's how we're saved, but that creates inconsistencies and contradictions throughout new testament, and the gospel itself. I'll end with 1st clement chapter 32b
"All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that FAITH through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
>>78906769
Great how schismatic Protestants (not including them all in this label!) say you can be only be saved by faith in Jesus and what else you do doesn't matter even if you massacre a million babies...
[I think this is probably wrong by the way, but I can respect and understand the idea actually]
But somehow if you have faith in Jesus and believe in him and trust that he died for you and rose again on the third day...
But YOU GO TO THE WRONG CHURCH and have DOCTRINAL DIFFERENCES (despite your strong proclamation of faith in Jesus Christ)...
You're going to hell anyway. I know you have a low of smart guys there and one of you needs to sit down and try to make sense out of that.
It's saved by faith unless your church has the wrong doctrinal statement in which case faith is useless and Jesus hates you.
>>78904608
>what is james 2:22, 2:23
dont blame the system if you havent read the manual
>>78921770
Nice strawman. The pic illustrates the passivity of faith which opposes your already contradictory prior claim of
active faith. Dunn is also writing for a general audience which shows how biased you are. Dunn as a scholar would not be as biased as White or you. On Clement you ignored >>78911025
>>78911091
>>78911121
>>78911151
What is a virus? What makes it specifically a virus as opposed to a microorganism? For one thing, a virus cannot reproduce by itself. Microorganisms like amoebas, protozoa, and the cells in your body can do that on their own.
A virus is just a container for its own genetic material which injects it into microorganisms. Viral DNA or RNA simply consists of instructions which compel the infected cell to make more viruses, in order to infect yet more cells.
Viruses do not have to be biological! Everybody's heard of computer viruses. They are very small, simple programs which, if simply left sitting in storage media like a flash drive or CD, would be inert and powerless.
Like a biological virus, they cannot reproduce themselves, they need a host to do that. Computers in this case. The virus is simply instructions for a computer which compel it to make more viruses in order to infect more computers.
Some have more of a purpose than that. There are types which commandeer large numbers of computers to serve the interests of the guy who programmed it, such as bitcoin mining or sending out mass spam emails. This is called a botnet.
There are some which bring up fraudulent messages that look like legitimate system warnings, asking you to buy software from the company responsible for making that virus in order to fix a nonexistent issue. This is known as scareware.
Now, viruses can be biological and they can be software. In either case, if you boil it down to basics, it's just *information* designed to compel some sort of host to propagate it to more hosts, spreading faster than it can be removed.
So it should come as no surprise that there can exist viruses designed to do this to the human brain, consisting of information written down, recorded as audio or in some other format comprehensible to us.
One example is a chain letter. It includes a strong but unverifiable incentive if you send it to 5 friends, like *"your crush will confess to you tomorrow"*. Of course that doesn't happen but because it's conditional on you sending it to five people, by the time you find that out, the author of the chain email has already gotten what he wanted from you; for you to spread it.
There's also an unverifiable punishment if you don't spread it which works the same way. Something like *"If you don't send this to five people, a headless ghost girl will visit you in your bed tonight"*. By the time you discover that was a load of BS, you've sent the mail on to five more people.
There is often some sort of imminent time limit, like *"send it within 24 hours"* or *"five minutes from when you see this"*, and the reward is conditional upon sending it within that period. This is to add urgency and prevent you from thinking too carefully about what the email is and what it's designed to do.
Then, there are often testimonials from people it has purportedly worked for. *"I sent it to five of my friends, now I'm married to my crush!!"* This is to create the appearance that it works and diminish your doubts.
Pyramid schemes aren't identical to this but share a great many of the same motivational methods. The unverifiable promise of future riches if you stick with the program and recruit as many friends and family into it as you can.
The testimonials from members who are either within the small percentage who actually did profit (and are being misrepresented as typical) or were coached to misrepresent how much success they had.
Often as they are true believers that they will eventually be rich anyways and do not want friends and family who warned them away from participating to have the satisfaction of being right, members are only too happy to live outside their means while boasting to anybody who will listen how successful they've been by sticking to the program.
This brings us to Abrahamic religions. You might say "hold on, don't you mean all religion?" I once thought this as well but remember that Eastern religions exist and by and large do not adhere to this formula unless you make it so loose and general as to be meaningless.
Abrahamic religions adhere to the formula described so far perfectly, and even improve on it in some areas. Christianity moreso than Judaism, and Islam/Mormonism moreso than Christianity.
1. Founder claims world is ending imminently (1 John 2:18, Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34)
2. He wants you to sell or give away your belongings ( Luke 14:33, Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22)
3. He wants you to cut off family who interfere, and leave your home/job to follow him (Matt. 10:35-37, Luke 14:26, Matthew 19:29)
4. Unverifiable reward if you believe (Heaven, i.e. the carrot)
5. Unverifiable punishment if you disbelieve (Hell, i.e. the stick)
6. Sabotages the critical thinking faculties you might otherwise use to remove it (Proverbs 3:5, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Proverbs 14:12, Proverbs 28:26)
7. Invisible trickster character who fabricates apparent evidence to the contrary in order to lead you astray from the true path (Satan)
8. Targets children and the emotionally/financially vulnerable for recruitment (sunday schools, youth group, teacher led prayer, prison ministries, third world missions)
Islam goes a step further with additions like the promise of guaranteed passage to paradise for those who die fighting infidels, which begets aggressive expansionism. Judaism has the reward/punishment dynamic but not much else, sort of a prototype for what came later.
Of course groups structured like this are already known about. The modern word for them is "cult". In this case specifically a doomsday/messianic cult. While Christianity today no longer includes many of those practices (like requiring new converts to sell their stuff, rendering them materially dependent on the group and less likely to leave if they experience doubts) that's because once a cult grows to the point where membership numbers are sufficient to guarantee long term survival, policies that were necessary to retain converts early on can be jettisoned (as they make tempting ammo for critics anyways)
Mormonism is much younger than Christianity, and so has not yet jettisoned many of the cult-like practices, which is why the general Christian public often identifies it as a cult. Scientology is younger than Mormonism and accordingly is still an obvious, full blown cult.
Despite their doctrinal differences, religions of this type can always be identified by the *formula* they share. In the same way that, even if nobody receives the Nigerian prince 419 email anymore, they can still tell that when a Dutch dignitary being exiled "needs help moving his fortune out of the country" and "some of it can be yours for a relatively slight transfer fee", it's still the same type of scam but with changed details.
Likewise, for every religion which uses this formula there is an unverifiable future reward if you join and don't leave (Heaven, being carried away by UFOs, whatever) an unverifiable punishment if you don't join or ever leave (left behind by UFOs as the Earth is destroyed, sent to Hell, etc.) a short term time limit to add urgency, both to convert yourself and to go evangelize so you can save as many other people as possible before "the end", testimonials from people who supposedly prayed and were healed, received a financial windfall or whatever else, etc. etc. etc.
It can be difficult or impossible for people in the religion to see it in this way. Aspects of how it's designed help put it as far beyond doubt as possible such that it's the *absolute last* institution that a believer would *ever* suspect as fraudulent.
As a result, describing it as an unusually successful end of the world cult will sound to them either like crazy talk or a deliberate attempt to be hurtful. They will see the verses supplied above as being misconstrued, because there is an "in-religion" rationale for each of them which the true believer feels is the actual meaning.
For instance, in Scientology there is a disconnection policy which urges members to cut off family members who are trying to extricate them from the church. We all know why. But the reason they give, which members take at face value, is that being around people low on the tone scale will inhibit their movement up the bridge, the Scientologist equivalent of spiritual growth.
So it goes for the Biblical verses I supplied. Someone still on the inside will perceive, interpret, and feel completely differently about them than a skeptic, even while being able to identify the true purpose of the exact same practices in religions they are not a part of. You can only see what stuff like that's really intended for *from the outside*.
That's all. Hope this was helpful.
>>78922317
Let the audience decide.
>>78921077
Okay then...
>>78921770
You proved nothing and failed to answer the problem of PAUL and James using language that already imply that Salvation can be lost and one needs work in such. We also see how paul warns against arrogance and sees the individual as being aided by God's Grace in salvation which is what the statement saved by faith through grace means which itself as seen in other statements entails works which you
Never addressed. All you are is an ignorant brainless spineless
Buffoon who feigns intelligence
>>78922583
Let you grow a brain first
>>78922573
>>78922533
>>78922476
>>78922370
Well thought out. I like it.
>>78922370
Organs dont have the function of reproducing DNA or RNA. What you said is dumb.
>>78921770
One should not forget that any notion of maturing in faith entails the need of free will and an active participant who grows and develops. OSAS contradicts this since anyone who falls away by definition is not even saved which makes any notion of growth and development pointless. Since as well such a view, it entails that one MUST know that one is saved. Any doubt means that there is no faith. But this contradicts the notion of fear and trembling that PAUL describes his own salvation as which entails
VulnerAbility and the fact that he can fall away.
>>78922972
Well, they propagate the existence of an organism, which exists to spread it's genes.
>>78922972
If your organs multiply within you and then crawl out and into the bodies of other people in order to further multiply, you should have a doctor look at that.
>>78922498
Hey dummy. I think you're onto something about the similarity of Christianity to various cults.
It's almost as if destructive cults rip off elements of a true religion and use it for their own ends to attract followers.
Back to SJW echo chamber boards with your fedoralord canned content. Should get banned for posting long boring stupid shit here.
>>78923395
>It's almost as if destructive cults rip off elements of a true religion and use it for their own ends to attract followers.
Like Christianity ripped off Judaism?
>>78904608
>people actually follow this retarded heretic autist
kys
>yfw you know a Jew made this thread
I have a Jewish friend on skype who keeps making these kinds of threads.
I am Catholic myself (sedevacantist, the current "pope" will be declared antipope in future mark my words). I see my protestant and Orthodox brothers as allies against Islam and Jewry AS LONG AS they are white and redpilled.
>>78923583
Yeah or Judaism is by nature an incomplete and anticipatory religion which is prophetically obsessed with a messiah who then actually came and fulfilled all those prophecies.
Obviously extending the revelation of Judaism.
It makes perfect sense in that context, someone could argue (unconvincingly) that they're waiting for some OTHER supernatural messiah.
The Jews who rejected Jesus of course tried to do this and then founded a whole new religion of Talmudic Judaism around NOT being christians
>>78923947
>An antipope (Latin: antipapa) is a person who, in opposition to the one who is generally seen as the legitimately elected Pope, makes a significantly accepted competing claim to be the Pope,[1] the Bishop of Rome and leader of the Catholic Church. At times between the 3rd and mid-15th century, antipopes were supported by a fairly significant faction of religious cardinals and secular monarchs and kingdoms. Persons who claim to be pope, but have few followers, such as the modern sedevacantist antipopes, are not classified with the historical antipopes.
Please for fucks sake learn what anti-pope actually means.
Also Traditionalist Catholicism is based, but Sedevacantism is schismatism, and nothing good come out of that ever.
>>78924171
>Yeah or Judaism is by nature an incomplete and anticipatory religion which is prophetically obsessed with a messiah who then actually came and fulfilled all those prophecies.
He didn't though: http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
>Obviously extending the revelation of Judaism.
Just as Islam claims to extend the revelation of Christianity.
>>78907252
>Saint Olga
>>78904608
I only need Kek for salvation. Behold, the true God grants me his dubs.
>>78924533
KEK CONFIRMED THE DUBS
PRAISE KEK
>>78924533
Salvation by script only?
>>78924688
>>78924733
Ye, only the faithful meme servants are granted dubs when humbly imploring the meme God.
>>78904903
Works are the result of salvation
Eph 2:8-10
If you claim you have faith, but you have no works, you don't have a saving faith
>>78924533
K E K
E
K
>>78908912
Eph 2:8-10
Works are the result
>>78909056
Nope, Romans 6, we are commanded not to sin
>>78904608
Protestants are literally kike-tier, which is why you cucks worship Israel and generally play their useful idiots.
>>78929051
Not all of us :)
>>78929367
The vast majority of you. Protestantism is generally a poverty-ridden in terms of theism. It was a historically mistake, and leads inevitably to the forms of low-church evangelism we see throughout the world today.
>>78904608
A little icing on the cake never hurt anyone, but taking the flour out of the mix fucks up the cake.
>>78929546
Well if the Roman Catholic Church actually followed the good book, I would still be one,
>>78929546
>>78904608
https://deovivendiperchristum.wordpress.com/2013/09/25/the-early-church-fathers-on-sola-fide/
>You proved nothing and failed to answer the problem of PAUL and James using language that already imply that Salvation can be lost and one needs work in such.
Because I tried to explain that they (the faithless) never had salvation to begin with.
>We also see how paul warns against arrogance and sees the individual as being aided by God's Grace in salvation which is what the statement saved by faith through grace
I guess we should ignore Galatians 5:5-6
>One should not forget that any notion of maturing in faith entails the need of free will and an active participant who grows and develops
...I'm sure everyone here understands that development doesn't mean we need free will as we were grew during the womb, but that's not a position I'm willing to defend.
>>78920379
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3PdldFAtss
>If God is the cause of these acts, then he has committed immoral acts.
That's a big if and you established God can't commit immoral sin.
So, this argument later place itself on probably when before you have already made certainty.
>>78929675
>Well if the Roman Catholic Church actually followed the good book, I would still be one,
We did it. Then that retarded monk Luther came out and shit happened. But we are still here Martin.
>>78930198
That is not the implication of Paul's and James' language which entails that those who believe can lose their salvation. It entails active faith and synergism. Invoking Galatians ain't gonna work when the context explicitly tells us of faith working in love or something along those lines. That matches the entire active faith motiff I had decribed thus far. Any notion of development or language of struggle implies free will and the possibility of falling away. If OSAS is the case, such language is meaningless as such struggle entails no salvation given doubt being part of it. Kierkegaard's existentialism is incompatible with OSAS! His version of Sola Fide involves despair and struggle in the face of the absurd such as in the case of Abraham. As an existentialist, he includes the belief in free will, making him an enemy of OSAS and Calvinism
