Christians, report!
Orthodox pastebin with reading list and FAQ's for atheists and Catholics and Protestants and more: http://pastebin.com/bN1ujq2x
Can well celebrate the triumph over the effort to push a Vatican II on the Orthodox Church?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L80lb1T0ecs
>The document affirms love and peace as the church's ideals, criticizes racism, inequality, moral degradation and "liberal globalism" -- it's an agenda as conservative as it is anodyne.
>Yet the Council could have changed the Orthodox churches' ossified attitude toward the rest of Cristendom, which has not changed since the Dark Ages. To Orthodox Christians, all other denominations are heresies, not churches. Some steps toward more ecumenism and more openness would already constitute serious progress for what is now the most conservative of Christian denominations. Patriarch Bartholomew, a friend of Pope Francis's, was determined to push it through.
Thankfully, it looks like his agenda has failed.
>the Russian Orthodox church, the biggest of all potential participants, has pulled out at the last moment, following the defection of three smaller churches, and the Council has been rendered meaningless or even damaging to future attempts to bring Orthodox Christianity into the 21st century.
http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-06-16/the-orthodox-church-stays-in-the-dark-ages
Orthodox hymn for the occasion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noetoc2W4Pc
>>77948791
Looking through the pastebins right now, interesting stuff.
>>77950208
If you have any questions, let me know
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1FzSC8DBs
>>77948791
Mission is going well. Doing more outreach to young muslims at Kampala International University. Prayers for patience, peace, and communication are appreciated.
>>77950418
Yeah, I was looking for scriptural reasoning behind mass, veneration of saints, and other Orthodox or Catholic traditions.
Antiochian Orthodox checking in
>>77950591
Heeey you're that Ugandan dude from flag thread yesterday!
Wassup bro, hows converting doing
>>77950418
>>77950653
Nevermind, found the part about veneration of saints.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cANdj9isrhA
>>77948791
what if i believe but dont practice?
>>77948791
>worshipping a Jewish lie
>on an anti Jew board
>giving a shit about the Russians and their even shittier branch of this Jew religion
>only source of proof for anything in the bible is the bible itself or some old jaw that said "there goy Sodom was real see that salt hill? That's the ruins goy"
Top fucking lel
>>77950591
Good to know! God bless your endeavor!
>>77950715
Welcome! I take if you're a convert?
>>77951102
Then you'd be Protestant.
>>77951182
>Canada
Of course, of course. What do you worship, frozen frenchmen?
I'm going to go to RCIA soon but I'm super nervous because I'm so bad at social situations. But I know I need to do it for my soul.
>>77950808
Hey, it can be really frustrating. Young Muslims here are very devout and our worldviews are so so different, so even if we are speaking the same language, communication is hard. The hostility is very thinly veiled. Africans have almost zero sense of time or punctuality. Getting expense reports, showing up on time, or anything remotely time sensitive can be very frustrating. Other than that I love being here. I thank God for the opportunity to spread His word and bring more into the fold. They need it badly here. Keep me in your prayers, you all are in mine.
>>77951328
>MuzRats
Just gas the fuckers and be done with it
>>77951102
James 2:14-26
>>77951182
>>77951400
>>77951182
If you can't understand books for grown-ups please don't try to talk about them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bclVYEUH4
>>77951238
I finally converted a year ago I come from a Catholic background but my dad became a protestant after my parents divorced and I was atheist for a while so I've kind of been through it all.
>>77948791
Deus Vult bump!!
Reporting in!
>>77951404
Kek is the only true proven God. He has manifested himself to us repeatedly in the past 6 months
>>77951808
Welcome! I recommend you read CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" a good non-denominational book that outlines the basics of Christian belief. Probs one of the most influential Christian books. Super good, short, conversational in tone, helped me understand my faith when I was starting out.
Fuck Bartholomew. Traitor to all Orthodox Christians.
He consorts with heretics, the perverts of the Vatican and the cannibals of Islam.
Can't wait till he dies, the old whore, and burn in Hell. Maybe then a real Patriarch will step up.
For those who don't get this, the Pope is basically making it WAY easier to get an annulment, because "not understanding the commitment to marriage" is a valid reason for one in the Catholic Church.
>>77952061
Valid grounds for annulment of marriage in the Catholic Church include, but are not limited to:
*you married for social status but the person did not have the status you expected
*you didn't know marriage was a "permanent relationship"
*you married intending to have the option of divorce open
*you did not know marriage was an "exclusive relationship"
http://www.stmarys-waco.org/documents/Grounds%20for%20Marriage%20Annulment%20in%20the%20Catholic%20Church.pdf
https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/marital_consent.htm
But adultery isn't one of them. Neither is abondoment. So if your wife gets knocked up by another guy, you are obligated to stay with her. Or if you are a mother of three and your husband leaves, you are obligated to raise them as a single mother. But all these stupid reasons are allowed
Compare the Orthodox reasons for divorce, very simple, very practical, pic related
>>77952027
That See is beholden to America, and has been for decades. That will probably change though, but I don't expect it to any time soon unless a Patriarch is defrocked and replaced by the others, or Russia makes memes real by taking back Constantinople.
>>77952021
I have that book I just haven't read it, I'm into more advanced theology. When I was first looking into Orthodoxy I read a lot of Alexander Schemann, Elder Cleopa, and Seraphim Rose.
>>77951808
So happy to have you in Christ's Body!
>>77948791
As a non-denominational conservative Christian, I must say that I'm rather impressed at the number of Christian generals popping up here. Kind of odd that Christians are becoming so counter-culture that we're having threads about the state of the church here of all places, but whatever.
Keep up the good work brother, and God bless.
>>77952252
>That See is beholden to America
That makes sense. Maybe that's why, he alone has visited the Pope more times, than all the other Patriarchs put together.
Maybe that's why too, he didn't condemn the Turks reading the Quran this Ramadan in Hagia Sophia.
I hope after his death, which I hope it will come soon, Russia will cast its influence in the Patriarchate of Constantinople and save it from the westerners' grasp.
>>77952493
Don't think you are above everything, everyone can learn, and CS Lewis is a great theological communicator. It helps with apologetics if nothing else. If you are looking into more theology, try Augustine or Assisi if Catholic, Luther or Calvin if Protestant. Idk, i really like Lewis tho
>>77952123
>very simple, very practical
That's not a very convincing argument, though. Also the Lord confirmed the indissolubility of marriage: "What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." -St. Matthew 19:6
>>77952810
>>77953209
*above Lewis, didnt mean to sound salty
>>77953325
Christ made an exception for sexual immorality and I'm sure he would for children who need two parents.
I don't think he'd make an exception for the person not having the social status you hoped for.
>>77953136
>Russia will cast its influence in the Patriarchate of Constantinople and save it from the westerners' grasp.
Not likely, unless Turkey is cleaved from NATO
>>77953325
Jesus lists adultery as a valid reason for divorce two times
Matthew 5:32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
Matthew 19:9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
>>77953879
But Catholics won't even allow divorce if your wife is impregnated by another man. But your wife can annul the marriage if you don't have the social status she married you for, or she didn't think marriage was meant to be "permanent"
>>77952027
Good thing we don't have a pope, someone like this cuck could've do a lot of damage in this position.
>>77954107
Yep. I've never been happier not to have a Pope
>Patriarch: we're going to modernize
>other patriarchs: ya, nah, don't think so.
>>77953741
I don't think that has anything to do.
Although I do believe that Turks have a say in the Patriarchate of Constantinople, thanks to Bartholomew, a proper traitor.
But the Russian Church is the biggest Orthodox, and it simply has to have supporters even in Constantinope, who could hopefully help in preparing a Patriarch more favorable to them, after Bartholomew's gone.
>>77953528
But that's not divorce, it's annulment. Very different.
>>77953879
How do you know "sexual immorality" means adultery?
>>77954107
If they had allowed Bartholomew to have it his way, he'd have been the first Orthodox Pope and had turned Orthodoxy into a tool for liberal globalist agenda.
Kirill saved us this time.
>>77948791
hopefully in the near future, we can correct some of the abuses made in the name of the so-called "spirit of vatican 2" so that orthodox patriarchs will submit to bishop of rome. Until then, may God grant you peace
>>77954496
What else would it mean? Also that is what the Orthodox Church teaches.
>>77948791
>Russian Orthodox church
Just FYI, since Stalin that church has been a tool of the KGB.
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/01/11/kgb-christians-putin-stalin-kgbs-history-manipulating-orthodox-church/
>>77954650
There other patriarchs also pulling out of this. But I agree, only Russian Church is actually relevant.
>>77954300
Still, cucks in Constantinople would try to push this shit further. I pray that Russian gov will not try to push church into it (first time I think it is good that they are having a really bad relations with West once again.)
>>77954899
It certainly can't mean adultery since he expressely says that whoever commits divorce for such "sexual immorality" commits adultery.
>>77955108
>>77955108
>for such "sexual immorality"
*except for such
>baptised as a catholic, with first communion
>lost faith over time, became atheist
>great fondness for byzantine history and the orthodox church
>cannot bring myself to believe in any deity so even if I wanted to, it'd be a very fucking conflicting thing
>nearest orthodox church happens to be 2 hours away and it'd cost a lot on fares, since I'm unemployed and stuck in an existential mud
>wouldn't even know where to start, and not sure my faith would ever be sincere
I don't even know the point of this rant, just had to get it off my chest once I found out an orthodox thread existed.
>>77954786
>so that orthodox patriarchs will submit to bishop of rome
>submitting to the heresy
>>77954918
Kek, before revolution it was tool of the emperor (thanks to the Peter the Great), so nothing new there.
>>77954496
>But that's not divorce, it's annulment. Very different.
Only in semantics, in practical function, saying someone can get an annulment because they didn't know marriage is for a lifetime (as if anyone doesn't know that), it's the same as divorce. Certainly not civil court would grant an annulment on those grounds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0d4qM7gCH8
>>77955108
>It certainly can't mean adultery
So adultery is not sexual immorality?
>>77948791
I was in Poland for the weekend, I must say the Polish people seem to be quite devout, I also saw 0 Arabs, it makes me glad to see their country like that, but sad to see Germany falling to Allah
>>77954999
>. I pray that Russian gov will not try to push church into it
The Russian government banned gay parades, swearing on TV and Protestant evangelism, and they're increasingly restricting abortion. they're pushing away from modernism, not toward it.
>>77955417
Poland is Catholic country.
>>77955108
Not sure I follow your logic. If say a woman cheats on her husband, the husband has not committed adultery, and if he were to divorce her because of her adultery he wouldn't have committed adultery either, since it would be based on the exception Jesus gave.
>whoever commits divorce for such "sexual immorality" commits adultery
Not "for such", "except for". Big difference.
>>77955219
Sorry for your hardships. :/
Remember Romans 5:3-4
Take a look at the atheist FAQ linked in the OP, friend.
>>77955462
Still, there is a chance. There is a lot of non-orthodox in Russia, very vocal atheist community - they could do it in order to deal with inner problems.
>>77954999
The Bulgar and Georgian Patriarchates are just acting out on Kirill's behalf.
The Antioch Patriarchate has its own very valid reasons to pull out.
Constantinople Patriarchate is and should be the first among equals. It's just that Bartholomew is no good.
Kirill may or may not want more power for his Patriarchate, but that is besides the point.
The way Bartholomew went and made that final push for the Synod, was like he was trying to force everyone to submit to his rule. He was taking no arguments, he made the decisions and he was just up and ordering the others about. This is not how the "first among equals" should be like.
Kirill and the Bulgars who were actually the first to bring it up, were right to defy the wanna-be Pope Bartholomew and pull out.
>>77955219
You could always try to go once a month anon. Try to make it for the major feast days?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlr90NLDp-0
>>77954918
No. The USSR replaced to the Orthodox Church with the "Renovated Church", taking away most parishes and giving them to the new church, which allowed bishops to marry and things like that, the clergy that would not accept was imprisoned. But people wouldn't go, and in WWII, when Stalin realized he needed the Church, he released the clergy and have the parishes back; the clergy that cooperated with the "Renovated" Church had to do the penance of apostates to get back in the Orthodox Church.
>>77955688
Not unless Putin falls from power.
tl;dr on the article, please.
>>77955417
God it must be really bad there if you think poles are quite devout.
Question to orthodoxs. Is orthodoxy make any distinction beetwen catholicism and protestants, or are catholics are on the same level of heresy as the others?
>>77955292
Annulment simply means that there was never an actual marriage, obviously if there's no full consent there is no marriage.
>>77955348
>>77955532
>>77955532
>Not "for such", "except for"
Yes I corrected myself. >>77955167
But it's easy to follow what I'm saying. Christ says that there's some X reason (sexual immorality) that makes divorce acceptable, and outside this reason you commit adultery. So "sexual immorality" can't be the adultery itself. It must be something else.
>>77955934
Catholics are heretics, obviously there are degrees though: Mormons are clearly worse than Baptists, etc. Catholics are better than Protestants generally, but we feel a closer kinship with Protestants who actually push strongly for more conservatism in their countries.
https://mospat.ru/en/2015/10/28/news124369/
>>77955934
Unlike protestants, Catholics believe in all seven sacraments, so that puts them leagues ahead of the rest on what we can agree on.
>>77955273
>the pope is a heretic
see image here>>77954786
>>77955711
Will see how this will turn out. Are other remaining patriarchs on the same page with Bartholomew?
>>77955219
I'm really suggest you to save some money up and visit Greece.
>>77956115
What else would it be though, you haven't answered that.
>>77955934
"All heretics but heretics in different ways" is the easiest way of understanding it.
>>77955931
Cuck in Constantinople was trying to push for more modernized views in orthodox church. Gets BFTO.
>>77956346
Is this a meme? There are literally zero modernist topics on the agenda.
>>77956196
>benedict 16 not being based
>>77955934
In two words - all heretics but if some particular sort of protestants are more conservative than catholics they considered less heretical and other way around.
>>77956558
It's a Trad Cath meme.
>>77956612
>>77956346
Thank god.
But does this applies to every church?
And where did that cuck come from?
>>77956196
>to prove that this particular heretic is not heretic at all I will bring up citation of another heretic
Whatever
>>77956140
>>77956144
What should be done to unify Church again? Is there are any room for debate and places where you can fall back a little bit?
>>77956344
Wait you're orthodox too?
>>77956229
I think many have their disagreements, even among the Greek Bishops there are many who clearly disagree with Bartholomew's liberal views.
But we will have to wait for the Synod to end, to see what did they come up with after all. One thing is for sure, it's not gonna work out for Bartholomew, thanks to Kirill.
Daily reminder orthocucks lost their capital for muslims ...
und orthodox representation
>russia
>ukraine
>belarus
>greece
>bulgaria
>serbia
>armenia
>ethiophia
sorry but
Catholic=western europe, western civilisation, Rome etc
Catholic>>>>>>>>>orthodox>protestants
>>77956863
No, just informed. I'm Catholic.
>>77956863
>What should be done to unify Church again?
There's literally no reason and no way for that happen.
Oh wait, there actually is. Convert to Orthodoxy.
>>77955634
Thank you for your kind response. I will.
>>77955739
It's not the simple matter of going, I'm not even an orthodox or christian, I'd have to deal with larger belief issues before even thinking on how to show up there. I'm also socially retarded, so I'd be too scared of soiling the church floor with spaghetti :^)
>>77956229
It's my lifelong dream to see Greece and the old city of Constantinople. I choke from seeing pictures, knowing myself I'd probably dehydrate crying if I saw it live. I'm actually getting a bit misty-eyed just typing this.
>>77951964
What do you guys think of Gnosticism?
>>77956921
>chatocucks
Take your bullshit somwhere else.
Pic very related.
>>77956965
You seem like a well informed guy. I'm struggling beetwen orthodoxy and catholicism but orthodox make some real good arguments against catholicism and the current pope and liberal modernist in western Europe are killing me. Do you have any good arguments why catholicism is better than orthodoxy?
>>77956313
When he talks about adultery, he uses the usual word, moicheia, but these "sexual immorality" is actually porneia (yep, just like porn). Porneia it's a stronger word and it literally mean fornication (sex outside marriage, as in ilicit unions, concubinate, or our modern civil unions), and it also can mean any ilicit relationship in a broader perspective, like marriage between brothers, etc.
Whatever it might be, he's talking about relations that are outside marriage (porneia), so how can it be cause of divorce in the first place?
Many English translations with protestant tendency usually translates porneia to "sexual immoralities", with is technically correct, but other translations are context aware and say "unless (its) unlawful". Technically the most objective translation would be fornication, so it can't hardly be considered a cause for divorce more than expressing simply any form of unlawful marriage, because there cannot be fornication inside a valid marriage.
>>77956863
I don't think we want to compromise on anything desu. Rome would basically have to unbind all the decisions they've made for the last thousand years, and that's probably not going to happen, so here we are.
>>77956558
>accept protestants and Catholics as actual Christians Churches, not heresies
>not modernization
>>77956824
We don't have anything like pope, so in order to something to be applied to all patriarchies you need to gather up all patriarchs and they should agree on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIuj2iGS_5s
>this is what orthodox actually believe
>>77956858
>the pope is a heretic because I said he is
Whatever, indeed, protestant friend.
>>77957228
You don't have to cross all the t's and dot you i's before you go you know. You're probably not going to progress all that much in your faith if you're actively avoiding going to spiritual places. As far as the social part of it, you don't have to stay after and talk to anyone if you don't want to. You can even leave early if you're that worried about it.
>>77957440
>it literally mean fornication (sex outside marriage
So, adultery then. At best you've established that it could mean something virtually identical to adultery but not quite adultery, but I don't see how you could interpret this is as meaning something altogether different than what most people could consider to be adultery.
>>77957471
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5x3IEi1C7w
>>77956863
It would basically require from catholics to convert to orthodoxy, don't see this how it could happen
Serious question that's not answered in the Faqs: how do you guys know that what you're believing is the one true faith?
>>77957440
I think I agree with you, especially when orthodox say sexual immoralitiy means also when a husband/wife is in 7 years in prison.
But Francis has changed catholic doctrine in Amoris laetitia and he tolerating or even supporting opinions that communion can be given to divorced people.
>>77958025
>So, adultery then.
Let me explain myself better, my english its a bit limited. Every adulterious act is fornication, but not every fornication is adulterious. Why's that? Because fornication (porneia) can only occur outside of a valid marriage, and adultery (moicheia) requires a valid marriage.
Example, a young unmarried couple, if they have sex, is fornication, not adultery. If they marry, and one of them have sex with a 3rd person, or divorces and remarries, and have sex, then it's adultery. Unless is fornication, Christ says, that's it, unless there was never actual marriage.
>>77958688
>Francis
Francis is a crypto-heretic, an infiltrate. And its not like it's a big secret.
>>77958894
So why the Holy Spirit allowed him to become the pope? They were bad popes in history but they were"only" degenerates. They didn't touch the doctrine.
>>77958894
If we are going to make that distinction between fornication and adultery then it would follow that Christ meant that a divorce can be granted if you find out your wife was not a virgin, that she has fornicated in the past. But surely that cannot be the case since that would imply only virgins can be truly married. And it would be at odds with what St. Paul wrote in 1Co 7 when he said "It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."
You see here that is quite different than what it appears you are suggesting. St. Paul seems to say the opposite, let a man have a wife *because of* sexual immorality, going on to say "if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
>>77957582
slava bogu
>>77955934
>Question to orthodoxs. Is orthodoxy make any distinction beetwen catholicism and protestants
Catholics are kinda ok-ish, both churches retrieve mutual curses lately. And when catholic priest converts to orthodoxy he can keep his title I believe. Still heretics.
Funny trivia - in 17 century we would send students to study in catholic universities in Italy or Poland, then they'd go back and convert to orthodoxy. Protestants and their books were burned. So catholic teaching is ok apart from few basic disagreements.
>>77959077
The action of the Spirit is through assistance, not direct divine inspiration like the Scriptures. For example, being th Vatican II by far the biggest council and the council that produced the higher volume of texts and declarations, and full of criptojews infiltrated after WW2, it didnt declare a single canon or definitive teaching. At all, and it's the only Council with that characteristic. Curious isn't it? And believe me, Bergoglio said worst things before being Pope. Now he's not touching the doctrine, just twisting it. Many doubt that Amoris Laetitia even constitues authentic magistery rather than just Francis talking out of his ass without actually making any point.
>>77959560
I'm not doing any distinction, it's literally what it says there. Porneia and moicheia, fornication and adultery. But he's not talking about past relationships but about the man and the wife, if they divorce they're adulterious, unless there's porneia, that's it, they're not legally bond with proper marriage.
>>77957389
I'm in the midst of working on my end so I can't be comprehensive but generally I'd point to the unique authorities Peter was given, which works against the notion that the seat of Peter is one of honor ("first among equals").
There's also the widespread understanding of how God is understood. Don't get me wrong, they're both Classical Theist groups but Orthodoxy supports there being a distinction between God's "energies" and His essence which would amount to God being in parts or there being more than one God. The distinction, which I'd consider a philosophical mistake, also runs against the understanding of God's nature derived from the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union of Jesus. However, there is also a line of thought which asserts that 'essence' used by the Orthodox is different than from the west and the conflict is just a confusion due to different words being used to say the same thing as the Catholics do.
Orthodoxy would make a historical argument for support of their view of God's nature, along with a historical argument for "first among equals" but there is also evidence for the other view and it's a very lengthy mess to parse through it all. Especially now, while I'm working.
Oh, and there's also the immaculate conception. As I understand it, there's no adequate argument against Immaculate Conception by the Orthodox both theologically nor historically.
Hope that helped.
>>77960609
>if they divorce they're adulterious, unless there's porneia
So what act could a married person commit that is fornication, but not adultery?
>>77961077
None, that's the point.
>>77961077
>>77961287
I mean unless you would consider adultery itself as fornication. But again that would make the phrase not make any sense. Because moicheia is the consequence in that phrase, not the cause which is whether or not there's porneia in that relationship.
>>77960836
>As I understand it, there's no adequate argument against Immaculate Conception by the Orthodox both theologically nor historically
The arguments would be we don't have a need for the Immaculate Conception as dogma because we don't hold the same views on ancestral sin. We don't believe Mary carried the guilt of Eve's sin, therefore we don't need her to be immaculately conceived for her to be without sin and blemish. Historically I would add that there was no dogma until 1854. So the way I see it there was no need for an Immaculate Conception as dogma for the first thousand years of Christianity, or for 800 years after the schism, why is there a need for one now? Also we would say the councils where this was decided were not valid because the Orthodox Patriarchats were not present at them.
>>77960836
Thanks Wolfy for your effort, but still I'm not convinced. Hope to see you in future, maybe you will find some links or some pastebin. It's really easy to find in internet arguments agains catholicism from orthodox perspective but that doesn't work in both ways.
>>77960609
>it didnt declare a single canon or definitive teaching
I know but it created this whole mees we're facing now. The thing is - the doctrine is still unchanged, but practice (mostly in western countries) is.
>>77961287
Then I don't understand how this interpretation makes any sense. Did Jesus have a gap in logic? Did Jesus give a self-defeating argument? Because if it is impossible for an exception to even happen then it is not an exception at all. And if you're saying that's what Jesus was implying, that there are no exceptions, then He couldn't have picked a more difficult way of expressing this, by saying "except for sexual immorality" not once but twice in the same Gospel.
>>77951182
a fucking leaf
>>77961762
>>77961762
>The arguments would be we don't have a need for the Immaculate Conception as dogma because we don't hold the same views on ancestral sin. We don't believe Mary carried the guilt of Eve's sin, therefore we don't need her to be immaculately conceived for her to be without sin and blemish
The guilt has little to do with it. We're talking about our concupiscence - our fallen state - of which both churches understand (though the Orthodox would use a different word) and which Mary was born without.
>>77962117
No problem, man. Id still maintain that what differences exist are not insurmountable on the search for salvation. If I run into you again, possibly with Constantine around, make yourself known and I'll try to free up some time I write to you in more detail.
Have a good day.
>>77961762
The Immaculate Conception has been officially present in the Church since, at least, the 12th century as liturgical celebrations. The declaration of a dogma doesn't mean that the dogma was born in the time its declared. You declare a dogma when you just want to put an end to a theological discussion. See any of our shared dogmas.
>>77962200
What gap in logic? He literally just said, if repudiate your wife (according to the Moses allowance), without being porneia (an illegitimate marriage), you fucked up. He nowhere says "except for sexual immorality", that's a sui generis translation, to be benign.
>>77948791
Straying away from the already established dogma means that the Holy Spirit is lost, it leaves if you stray from the path. Those who know Orthodox theology well know what i'm talking about . Catholic countries are feeling this separation, in the form of muslim dick, spineless population, and general lack of identity, drive and purpose in life of its people. Godless countries are going downhill, and /pol/ is full of this proof. Orthodox is the only true way.
I am a protestant. How can I convert?
>>77962881
We understand the consequences of the fall to be the loss our of immortality—we die. Mary was not exempt from this, she died like the rest of is, although we refer to that event as Dormition, the "falling asleep" of the Theotokos and her ascension into heaven.
>>77961762
>Historically I would add that there was no dogma until 1854
this date is when the OFFICIAL dogma was instated. It was the common collective opinion of all Church authority until then. Rampant Protestantism made a need tor a deliberately stated dogma more necessary.
Keep in mind, the canon was not officially established for hundreds of years, but it had been decided 'de facto' for a long time.
>>77964001
just to clarify, the canon is the 73 books of the bible
>>77963049
If that's the case, the 12th century, then it's still something that started taking place after the schism. And I think our attitude is more or less, it's not a heresy to believe she was immaculately conceived, what makes it a heresy in our eyes is to say that anyone who doesn't believe it is anathema. Surely you can see how we might take issue with a dogma that was created after the schism that boasts anathema to anyone who doesn't believe it.
>>77963049
So the Greek Lexicon is wrong then? Because I just looked it up and adultery is clearly listed as one of the definitions. I think Occam's Razor applies here.
>>77948791
Neat pastebin. It looks similar to this one.
http://pastebin.com/xMQ9wAwW
>>77964001
>It was the common collective opinion of all Church authority until then
Maybe in the west, certainly not in the east. And you'd have a hard time finding something in the writings of the Church Fathers that are explicit about it, from what I've seen they can all be reconciled with the Orthodox belief that she remained ever-virgin, blameless, without sin, but not necessarily immaculately conceived.
>>77948791
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/alexander_a/canon.iii.v.html
What's a good place to buy a crucifix?
>>77958688
The prison issue is mainly in consideration of children of the marriage. If a parent gets sentenced to twenty years in prison, that's saying the other parent has to raise the kids alone if they can't remarry.
>>77965274
http://store.ancientfaith.com/orthodox-crosses/
http://store.ancientfaith.com/wooden-engraved-items/
>>77964338
I found datations of liturgical celebrations from the 12th century just googling it, but the believe itself its obviously older. But yes, I understand what you mean. You dont condemn it as an heresy, and we declare it as a dogma.
>>77964338
What lexicoon? In any greek dictionary, the first definition of porneia is fornication (of course it can also mean adultery by extension, or any other deviant behaviour). But for adultery the proper word is moicheia which is more specific, and Christ literally uses both words! the Lord is clearly stating that the exception of the first (porneia) makes the case for whether or not the second case occurs (moicheia), I don't really understand what's your argument here.
Also how would be a simpler explaination what actually is the opposite, thats it, that Chirst threw an ilogical phrase such as: Unless there's adultery, you're adultering, by effectively using a word whose primary meaning is precielly fornication, an ilicit sexual act, as oposed to the proper word for adultery, that he in fact uses in the second part of the phrase?
>>77966036
Thanks.
>>77966185
The word means "whoring", to be literal. A "forincatress" is literally just the same word as "whore".
>>77963197
I'm also interested in what it entails to become an Orthodox Christian.
Do you just attend church for awhile and let the priest know you're interested? Are there classes to take?
>>77963197
>>77966676
The conversion process is up to your bishop. But yes, the steps you need to take are attending Liturgy for a while, then asking a priest. There might be classes, or it might just be a reading list
The Orthodox who specialize in converts are the Antiochians. They have a large evangelist organization, have English Liturgy, they have a Western Rite (it's like Medieval Catholicism, including in art), and they are mostly converts themselves. But all of them take converts.
>>77966185
This is from the Greek Lexicon on biblestudytools.com
1. illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,
2. metaph. the worship of idols
of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
Perhaps it was it was written using two different words to avoid redundancy? Here is what it says in the Orthodox Study Bible under Mt 5:32
5:31. 32 In contrast to the easy access to divorce under the Mosaic Law, and because of the misuse of divorce in that day, Jesus repeatedly condemns divorce (19:8, 9) and emphasizes the eternal nature of marriage. The possibility of divorce on the grounds of sexual immorality shows that marriage can be destroyed by sin. While recognizing divorce as a serious sin, the Orthodox Church allows divorce and a second marriage as a concession to human weakness and as a corrective measure of compassion when a marriage has been broken. A third marriage is permitted only under specific, limited circumstances, and a fourth marriage is never permitted.
>>77967012
Yeah, the Church grants divorce very sparingly and for good reason. This is why Putin, though he clearly has tremendous favor with the Patriarch of the Russian Church, hasn't obtained a Church divorce, because it didn't qualify; hence he never remarried.
>>77966459
That'd be true if he was refering to a person, e.g. the wife, as a "whore" or "fornicatress" (πόρνη), he talks about a situation instead (πορνεία, fornication).
>>77967012
>Perhaps it was it was written using two different words to avoid redundancy?
Well you certainly need that explanation if you wanna use that verse to justify divorce.
>>77966907
I converted without ever meeting my bishop. He only comes to the parish once a year and I missed him the first time. I went through catechism but my wife didn't and our priest still went ahead with her anyway because she came with me to Divine Liturgy every Sunday for a long time.
>>77967566
I mean the bishop determines the process for converts in his diocese, not that you have to meet him.
>>77967243
>he talks about a situation instead (πορνεία, fornication).
Literally harlotry.
Atheism is the way to go bros.
>>77968155
Nah you know God exists
>>77967784
But he's speaking in a legal context. You know the biblical term πορνεία doesn't literally means just whoring.
Orthodox doesn't use that meaning either (divorce only due to prostitution), you chose instead another more broad meaning (sexual immoralities) for your interpretations.
>>77963197
Dont
>>77968260
>But he's speaking in a legal context.
Nope, Christian morality is not juridical. That's what distinguishes the new covenant.
>You know the biblical term πορνεία doesn't literally means just whoring.
That's right, it's to mean all sinful sexuality.
>>77968209
I am a godless man
>>77968871
You know God exists, and you hate him, so you are half correct
Does not existing really scare you people this much? Man, and I thought agnostics were pussies.
Ave Maria.
>>77969225
Saying we're theists because we don't want to accept the reality of death is as ridiculous as saying you're an atheist because you don't want to accept the reality of hell.
>>77969093
Well actually I don't know if god exists, and neither do you, you just believe in him as I don't believe in him. I wouldn't say I hate this idea of a God but I hate religious ideologies.
>>77969495
Well that's actually the reason, it's called suppression
>>77969495
Then why believe? There's literally no reason to accept the supernatural on faith other than avoiding an inconvenient truth.
>>77969526
Romans 1
God has revealed himself to you, stop suppressing this truth and put your trust in Christ, lest you stand before a just and holy God and pay for your sins on your own
Maybe a reformed Orthodox church would be better?
>>77969773
Prove it.
>>77968604
>Nope, Christian morality is not juridical.
Yeah but Jesus was talking to the jews about divorce which was a juridical form given by Moses. Also that phrase itself it's a bit... senseless, if you'd say legalist it would make way more sense but it still does have nothing to do with what I said. He's talking in a legal context but of course he's also teaching his divine doctrine by doing so.
In fact I believe he's completely destroying the Mosaic legal aspects of marriage, you believe he's reinforcing it by adding suddently many additions to the Mosaic law of divorce.
>>77968604
See >>77967012
Anyways I'm off to bed. It's been a pleasure to exchange with you guys, grats on the Holy Council and God bless all!
>>77969885
How do I prove something to u that you already know, what would convince you
Deus Vult?
Deus Vult
>>77969773
But god has not revealed himself to me, so I won't trust in something that does not exist. And if I stand before the just and holy god at my time of reckoning, god will understand that I was just in not believing for not conceiving an idea.
>>77969835
I was going for a contradiction in terms there but apparently it exists already, thanks modernity.
>>77969988
Your entire argument is that we already know god exists when it is our firm belief that he doesn't, you will never convert or convince anyone just by repeating yourself and quoting the bible that we will pay for our sins if we do not believe. Sounds a lot like a threat to be honest.
>>77969671
Did you read the atheist FAQ linked in the OP?
>>77969950
>Yeah but Jesus was talking to the jews about divorce which was a juridical form given by Moses.
He's talking about how the new covenant works in contrast with the old.
>In fact I believe he's completely destroying the Mosaic legal aspects of marriage, you believe he's reinforcing it by adding suddently many additions to the Mosaic law of divorce.
What I think he's talking about is the ontology of marriage as opposed to the law of marriage. He's talking about under what conditions marriage is ontologically extinguished.
>>77970094
God will hold you accountable for what you do know, and you know God exists
>>77970300
I can't convert anyone, only the Holy Spirit can
>>77970094
Stop being an argumentative little cunt and accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour.
>>77970300
What would convince you God exists?
>>77970314
Except I don't know god exists, he hasn't revealed himself to me as you say he has. So God will not hold me accountable for something I don't know.
>>77970531
But he has Romans 1:18-22, the problem is that you suppress this truth in your unrighteousness
>>77970314
>>77970409
>>77970414
>>77970467
>>77970679
>these Catholic/Protestant style posts
Happy I'm Orthodox desu
>>77970800
What's the orthodox religious differences senpaii?
At the rate this is going on I'm being threatened with eternal hellfire unless I accept a truth I haven't been told.
>>77971056
Your going there for your sins Romans 6:23
>>77971056
But God has offered a way out read John 3
>>77971056
See the pastebin in the FAQ
For one thing, we consider the "fire" of hell literally God's grace and love (Hebrews 12:29), it's the same light that halos are. It's a negative experience depending on whether you hate God or are ashamed of God, vs. loving God and not being ashamed (due to asking for forgiveness and being absolved).
Orthodox Christian here.
Catholics are jokes for the most part, and IMO mexicans and central americans make the biggest piece of shit catholics on the planet. They make crosses out of their arms and light marry candles when time needs it, but then they go have sex with the entire apartment like whores. Seen it with my two eyes. But why not right? all they gotta do is go and talk to a priest who more than likely has a thing for young boys or girls, the all that shit is absolved, like taking a shower but even easier. Just go inside, talk to the old man and you are clear.
LOL.
Worst of all is the romanticism of Catholicism, that's why you have all these splinter catholic groups who believe in stupid shit, vampires, talking skeletons, and usually like 90 percent of the time they are catholic.
And before you say "B-but that's because there are so many catholics" , bullshit, Catholics are the worst christians, PERIOD.
>>77971693
More devout Latin Americans are coming to us
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/15/greek-orthodox-church-latin-america_n_7065630.html
>>77971056
Orthodox are schismatic heretics and reject papal infallibility, they got mega butthurt when the pope excommunicated from the true one and holy apostolic catholic church.
>>77971693
btw before I leav.e
all those little boys and girls your priests molested, that's a stain on you, and what did the church say? That there was a demon at the vatican, like an evil spirit who infested everyone.
haha, FUCK ME. If that's true then you just admitted that you have been hijacked by satan. INSANE
ok im leaving bye
>>77969988
"But Cthulu has already convinced you that the old ones predate and predetermine our lives as worms. Such that all shall be subordinated unto the madness of the allfather Azathoth. How can I demonstrate that which you already understand?"
I can do it too, you mongoloid.
Come back with a real fucking argument.
>>77971807
Catholics reject Papal infallibility too, in the 19th Century they said Popes have to say "ex cathedra" to make something infallible, a rule that had not prior precedent; they used it to male all previous Popes fallible so they don't have to explain their mistakes.
Is winding down with a 6 pack of beer a sin?
>>77948791
Got into an argument with a Muslim. He said that the bible isn't real, that it was a mistranslation of the real bible and that Christians aren't following the real word of god. He said Christians are supposed to believe and act the same way as Jews and Muslims, no pork, women in veils, no alcohol, killing gays and cutting off the hands of thieves.
Said Christians are supposed to be Muslim because Mohammad was said to come by Jesus and that real Christians become Muslim and that even the popes say Islam is real and the true following of Christ.
Very infuriating arguing with him, he'll say not all Muslims when deflecting Islamic terrorism but then say all Christians and all the people of the west are trash. Said Europe and America should be Muslim and non-white and that they deserve it for letting on whoever wants to.
This isn't some random Muslim, this is a guy born in Tunisia, moved to Denmark for 20 years and had 3 kids with a Danish woman, and moved to America. He's a westernized Muslim. I dug down his arguments with logic and got him to say that the Orlando shooting was justified because gays should be killed according to god and that Christianity is not a real religion.
>>77971807
>>77971693
Fuck this shit every religious sect just seems to take the piss out of and hate each other.
Seems there is no right religion to follow it's all down to personal opinion.
Personally there is no god for me, which I prefer as I don't have to live a regulated life in fear of god.
>>77972060
As long as you don't get drunk
>>77971962
You got a holy book to back that up
>>77972060
No, at least not in Orthodox Christianity.
>>77972119
The Orthodox Church is not a sect, it's the one founded by Christ. Dogma, for us, is what Christ taught personally; no more, no less, no "new understanding" (Catholics believe dogma "matures" over time).
Attempts to distort, add, take away from, or "mature" this, is what leads to sects.
>>77972119
In real life, Catholics and Orthodox get on fine with each other since it's basically the same church, but on 4chan it becomes a larp festival of whose better. However I think one thing we can agree on is that protestants are absolutely heretical.
>>77972376
"The old Old Ones need not fallible human scribblings. You shall know once his occursed insight overtakes your sanity and shows you the truth! Iya Cthulu, Iya Azathoth, praises to the great one that sleeps in the sea that which slumbers among the stars."
>>77972564
>In real life, Catholics and Orthodox get on fine with each other since it's basically the same church
From a Catholic perspective. The Orthodox do not recognize them as a Church, just as a heresy that's what the OP is about
>>77951182
The Jewish lie is that Jesus got his power from demons and that his mother Mary is a whore
As it says in the Talmud
>>77972582
Do you have A copy
>>77972086
You seem to be ignorant about the muslim perspective on other religions.
According to Islamic Theology god sent many prophets, numbered in thouısands and books though numbered in few less, Jesus and Moses are considered to be the most important after Mohammad. But since the prophet count is very high there a lot of candidates for it, Zoroaster, Buddha even sometimes Alexander the Great.
So the islamic doctrine goes as this, These prophets spread the true message of god and their book (if there is any) contains the word of god, but In time their followers divert from the religion their respective prophet teach, by saying "Jesus was a muslim" he basically means this, that there was a true-original message of god but "christians" corrupted it later on. For example many muslims would say Paul twisted the message of Jesus. But this also gives a leeway of "people of the book" in other words rather than true infidels a lot of Christians-Jews and sometimes Zoroastrians etc can be seen as "misguided fools, but good at the end"
Of course their rhetoric is that Mohammad-Quran is the last combination god ever sent and their words are incorruptable, so there is that sense of superiority that they alone hold the monopoly on the true word of god, while the rest just hold twisted versions of it
I'm not a muslim myself but that is their view basically. Islam is heavily influenced by eastern, nestorian christianity, which hold the "mainstream" chalcedonian Christianity of the Empire as misguided, Islam borrows extaclty same story of jesus's crucifixion from Nestorians iirc. That god lifted him without letting him crucified, and that judas was crucified instead, this was a meme already in existance pre mohammad.
Apparently he thinks gay unions promote monogamy and strengthen family values (for gays who adopt)
Daily reminder that this guy was Benedict's protege (and extremely close friend to this day), and is Francis' right-hand man.
>In April 2012, the election of a young gay man who was living in a registered same-sex partnership to a pastoral council in Vienna was vetoed by the parish priest. After meeting with the couple, Schönborn reinstated him. He later advised in a homily that priests must apply a pastoral approach that is "neither rigorist nor lax" in counselling Catholics who "don't live according to [God's] master plan".[38]
>Schönborn is a member of the Elijah Interfaith Institute Board of World Religious Leaders.[31]
>Elijah Interfaith Institute is a nonprofit, international, interfaith organization which was founded by Rabbi Alon Goshen-Gottstein
>>77972425
Do you think it's worth it to live in a city that I don't like very much, just because it has an orthodox church in it? I was going to move away to a smaller town, but there's no orthodox church there.
>>77973118
>Islam is heavily influenced by eastern, nestorian christianity
It's more Arian though desu
>>77973247
If you're Orthodox, yes.
>>77973285
I though arianism died out in the east by that time and was only practiced by vandals-goths at west? I might be wrong,
>>77973118
Islam makes no sense
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nNAS0aaViM4
>>77973410
It did, but I'm saying Islam is more Arian than Nestorian, even if was the latter who influenced them.
>>77948791
Can i be a QT trap and sill orthodox?
>>77973368
Right now I'm a believer with no church. Unbaptized.
>>77972119
>complaining about Christian degeneracy on a website with onahole advertisements
>>> r/atheism
>>77973163
>(((Alon Goshen-Gottstein)))
>>77973669
What the fuck is onahole, I'm using adblock I don't see any of that shit.
>>77972564
Obviously there are churches that fall under the "Protestant" umbrella that are weird and teach things that are wrong, but ultimately whoever accepts Christ will be saved, whatever the denomination. There are also people who claim to be Christian who aren't saved in each denomination as well. I wish this tribalist mindset would stop already
>>77973012
"Fool, they need it not! Lord Cthulu's spreading dreams are the only substantiation needed!"
I've constructed my hypothetical to be indestructible, I could use H.P. Lovecraft's literature as my holy book if I wished. you've done the same shit with your religion, you're basing your life on a logical fallacy made by a dumb fuck who had a stroke two thousand years ago. This is why logic requires falsifiable answers.
>>77973590
You won't be allowed to marry
>>77973597
I'd strongly advise you get baptized into the Church then.
.
>>77972582
>Holy book
>Necronomicon
No
>>77973859
You don't need to put those marks, it says he's a rabbi right in front of his name
>>77974180
But anon i have a fiancee girl. Can i marry her?
>>77974233
Didn't say it was one. Even in Lovecraft's universe the Necronomicon was written by an insane man. Just as fallible as the bible.
>>77974281
No, not if you've had any hormone transition.
>>77973426
That video is a bit strange, no muslim I know would call "Christian God" as a false god and have never met someone so said so. Just as a Christian would not say the god of the jews is a false god (yeah you can play the semantics by saying they are misguided, now worship satan etc etc but you get the idea)
the video is correct in that muslims do reject the bible, they believe that another set of "book" was given to jesus.
You might say "wait a minute, don't they know gospels were written after Jesus and he never wrote anything?" and the answer to that would be the general ignorance of Christian History-Theolgoy of Mohammad, He was knowledgeable about certain things about Christianity and Judaism but not that much.
Islam is basically an amalgamation of pre arab religion mixed with Judaism and Christiainty. Mecca was surrounded by monotheist and mohammad interracted frequently with Christians and Jews before decvlaring himself a prophet.
>>77974134
>Implying that a hypothesis is indestructible because muh religion
>ad hominem to mask lack of substance
Usually, atheists are more fallacious, as seen in their exclusive fallacies, where they claim Jesus didn't exist, despite there being historical evidence.
Atheists demand proof and evidence for other worldviews, yet there is no proof and evidence that atheism is true. Also, despite the abundant evidence for Christianity and the lack of proof and evidence for atheism, atheist reject the truth of Christianity. Atheists refuse to go where the evidence clearly leads.
>>77974413
Yes, but that was Lovecraft's universe, where anything can happen. We're talking about real life.
>Maybe if I say it's fallible, it'll be true
http://peace-of-mind.net/prediction.htm
Kek
Go back to r/atheism and suck Richard Dawkin's cock some more
>>77974488
So Muslims think that Christians don't have a book and that it's never seen the light of day but they believe in it? Lol ok
Islam is a lie like every other religion that tries to twist the gospels but mix it with truth to fool people and lead them away from Christ
>>77974180
The orthodox or catholic one? Does it matter? There are several catholic churches where I want to move but no orthodox. But if I stayed, there are several of both. If I didn't have to choose between them, I'd choose orthodox.
>>77975213
Muslims believe that Jesus had a book, a true book, it did see the light of the day, but was lost in time pretty soon. They might say gospels hold some value or even maybe "fragments" of the true book, but it is deffinetly not "the" true book, given personally to Jesus(as in quran given to mohammad personally),
again not a muslim myself so I will not defend islam for anything, nor I want to derail this thread any further by going fedora etc, I should sleep anyways, have a good day
>>77975218
The Orthodox Church is the one Christ founded, the Catholic Church was founded one the Donation of Constantine. So, from an Orthodox perspective, is matters significantly, but since Vatican II Catholics have considered all our sacraments equally valid (the feeling is not mutual).
>>77975608
*on the Donation of Constantine
>>77975496
You too
>>77975608
Alright, thanks. I'll stay. I guess it will be some kind of penance to remain in this wretched place. Maybe God will find something for me here.
>>77975209
>Tyre was rebuilt and thrives, only first being destroyed a thousand years after the prediction
Pi isn't three by the way.
>>77974926
You can't substantiate nothing, friendo. I don't have a conclusion, I don't say that God, categorically doesn't exist. I just don't believe that he does, you can't prove it so why should I?
'>Implying that a hypothesis is indestructible because muh religion"' I never did this, merely that your assertion holds no logical validity as it's unfalsifiable. My assertion about a fucking space squid stands just as strongly as yours.
>>77975890
Romans 5:3-4
>>77975890
If you become a priest in the future (who can be married in the Orthodox Church, so long as it is before they are ordained), you might get the go-ahead to establish a mission elsewhere.
>>77948791
As a Catholic, i feel Vatican II was the beginning of the end for us. Why do you want this for our orthodox brothers?
>>77976498
I don't, did you read the whole OP? We defeated the attempt at an Orthodox Vatican II
>>77975958
If you don't believe that God exists, then why bother posting in a Christian thread?
Several miracles prove the existence of a supernatural being, if not our Christian God, like the Miracle of Holy Fire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-lBVLg7cqU
And many more
>Magical sky fairies
I'd like to see you find proof for the existence of a space squid. It's like saying the Flying Spaghetti Monster actually exists.
And I'm not your friendo
OY VEY
>>77976562
Whoops sorry, saw Vatican II and got triggered I guess.
>>77976669
The Orthodox are the One Church, friend, Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail over us. Have no fear!
>>77977026
You're making my decision to convert to orthodox alot easier
>>77975209
meh with enough fate you can worship the dirt beneath your feet, to think that any other belief is false and not your own it's but a laughable concept.
>>77977361
>fate
meant to say faith
>>77977148
We'd love to have you!
>>77976573
I like seeing you guys squirm, it's funny.
Also, this holy fire thing would be the easiest thing on earth to fake, hidden rooms, matches up the prieste's ass, self lighting candles, matches in the candle wax, etc. The guy in the vid even says it's more about the symbolism than anything. Stop blindly trusting authority figures that tell you that they can do things that you can't.
"I'd like to see you find proof for the existence of a space squid." Your argument was literally that I supposedly agreed with you deep down. My arguement was that YOU agreed you ME deep down and were just "suppressing the truth in your sin". They're the same.
>>77973669
>dat pic
>somehow a biological machine that shit sleeps and eat has the concept of philosophical thought
analogies only work when the scenario presented is actually plausible.
What bible translation is preferred in orthodoxy? I understand there is no proper translation of the orthodox old testament, but which do you guys personally read?
>>77977454
>squirm
Lol, yeah. Really made me think
RELIGION IS A LIE
>>77977912
How do you know? All of them?
>>77977912
What caused the big bang?
While reading over that FAQ
>we are already in heaven we just don't know it yet, also heaven and hell are the same thing
Huh?
>>77951238
I've met much more non-practicing Catholics than Protestants.
>"hey look, we get ourselves into heaven by our own merit through works, and of course we also need the church!"
>no but that's wrong, see Ephesians 2:8-9
>"woooow I bet you dont even do your works..."
>>77977689
We have Orthodox translations of the OT, here's one
http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/zot.htm
Generally, though, any decent translation (like the King James, not like the New International Version) is fine for personal study. We're more picky about Liturgical use though
>>77978310
Why not both works and faith?
>>77978518
What do you think about the catholic ignatius bible? I was thinking of buying it because it had all the books.
>>77978087
See 6h
>>77978543
Because Ephesians 2:8-9 is crystal clear, your works here are irrelevant when it comes to being saved or not, there is nothing you can possibly do to earn your salvation. Works are more like a natural result of faith.
You don't need to tell a tree to give fruits, it gives them naturally.
>>77977727
Really diggin' how you dodged my retorts, friendo. :^)
>>77978632
I should add that the ignatius bible is the RSV, with "virgin" instead of "young woman".
