So, I'm switching from Leave to Remain in the EU referendum. Or rather, I am currently undergoing that change in position.
I'd like to talk about why, and whether I'm making a rational change.
In terms of the economy and trade: I doubt statistics from both the leave and remain campaign. I would imagine that very little would happen, with perhaps worse performance in the short term if we vote to leave. For trade, the EU will negotiate trade deals, and the deals they negotiate are beneficial for the UK - much more so than Switzerland's trade with china, which harms key Swiss industries. The long term view appears to be on the side of the EU in this case.
In terms of immigration: I really couldn't care less. There will be plenty of immigrants if we stay or leave. We have control over immigration from Asia, the Americas and Africa, and that immigration isn't about to stop.
Now for my only pro-Brexit point: Sovereignty. I want the UK to be sovereign over it's laws, and to maintain influence independently over our neighbours across the world.
But in <current year> that sounds like little more than an emotional argument. An appeal to the basest possible level of governance.
There is a little more to it, though. The current round of Comissioners, Juncker himself especially, are openly anti democratic and care very little for the will of independent nations as they push towards political union. And there is no way to escape that union.
But if we do end up with a USE, and we are outside of it, well, what would be so great about being the 4th largest economy in the world? When the 1st, 2nd and 3rd are so astronomically far ahead?
This all solidified in my head when I read a speech by George Osborne back in 2014. https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/extracts-from-the-chancellors-speech-on-europe.
The UK, it seems over this past decade, have been heavily pursuing our national interests, and ensuring that the EU can never again be used against us.
>>77903628
faggot
tldr
>>77903716
tl;dr
Leave has no economic, immigration or sovereignty argument
>>77903775
still a faggot
>>77903628
You v. merkel
>>77903887
Up until this past week, I would say the same thing to anyone suggesting a Remain vote. But it really seems that while official campaigns are full of shit, the decision to leave is just propagandized emotional bullshit through and through.
>>77903628
If remaining wins then you could start backing the sovereign of the USE... I dont know of thats good enough for you
Perhaps you could go full Destiny Manifiest and push for a USE as big as posible... you know... be an empire once again
The main questions is if you feel any... connection to the rest of the european people, if not definetely vote leave
But if yes, imagine what you could do if you were one nation
Only another superpower could stop you
And sadly perhaps is the only way to waranty your survivance, China and Russia could end up beeing a threat
>>77903628
the left / communists have allied with radical Islam and are importing your future Islamic communist re-education camp guards.
Vote to leave faggot.
>>77904148
Pakistanis didn't need the EU to migrate to the UK.
I'll bite
>economic
The preference given to European products is an economic farce, and protectionism means industries in Europe stagnate and are of inferior quality to those outside of Europe.
Additionally European bureaucracy likes its regulations which are unreasonable and force British industry to jump through stupid hoops.
>immigration
The European Union will not let Britain have sovereignty over its immigration, so the only hope for immigration reform in the nearish future is an independent Britain anyway.
>Sovereignty
Come the fuck on man, can you even tell me who is in charge of the European union and who elected or selected them? I bet most EU politicians can't. I say this as someone who normally wouldn't even claim to be a fan of democracy but the EU is antidemocratic in the worst way, the way that seeks to undermine the stability of its member states.
>>77903628
My head always said to remain, my heart said to leave.
My main reason for staying is economic as well, but seeing in the past few days how so many people are voting with emotion, I thought "fuck it, I might as well too".
>>77903628
>Wants UK to be sovereign
>Votes remain
No, you don't want it.
>>77903628
good shill goy
>>77904519
The protocols demand so
>>77904389
Yeah, a big part of my initial reaction to vote leave is reflected by Pat Condell. He basically said 'I'm voting leave, because FUCK YOU', referring to cucked libtards. Whenever I try to talk about the EU ref, my uni student friends would just prattle on about my white privilege and how I shouldn't spread hateful opinions. I loathe that language, and don' believe a word of it.
So my heart goes to vote Leave, but it just doesn't seem like a rational decision.
>>77904291
But in the long term more trade barriers will be brought down by the EU - which is their current trend post 80's commie bullshit.
Immigration won't stop because no government will stop it, and my point was that the Tories have been doing a good job of exercising our sovereignty over the past decade as they reform how the EU works for non Eurozone members.
The EU never tried to be obtuse about the commission, Council of the EU or the EU parliament, their roles, functions and voting systems. Claiming that 'nobody knows who this or that guy is' is again just an emotional argument that speaks more about an ignorant population than it does the organisation.
>>77903628
>But in <current year> that sounds like little more than an emotional argument. An appeal to the basest possible level of governance.
What's wrong with you, do you really want to avoid any kind of responsibility for your countrys rule that desperatly?
Your own London based goverment is allready almost imune to any amount of popular preassure that isnt condoned by the media.
Shareing the responsiblity of deciding what your goverment should look like with 63 million Britts you're allready completely ruled by the media, the banks and the larger industrial special interest groups who can excert tangliable preasure on your goverment.
The average person allready has absolutely no influence and no possibility of making a change.
If you think this isnt going to be 10x worse in the comming United States of Europe, you're stupid beyind belief.
Suck a dick faggot.
Morning news was all about how horrible a brexit would be, especially for anybody with a job or without a job who needed money.
They don't usually shill that hard.
DO IT LADS DO IT DO IT DO IT THEY'RE SCARED AS FUCK
>>77903628
>>77903628
OP likes the EU's cock in his ass and even asks for more "gun control".
>>77905167
God damn it why did you have to remind me? The morning news also outright said something like "and now they're calling for more gun controll"
It's completely unhinged. They can't even figure out how to try to spin it anymore.
>>77904772
>The EU never tried to be obtuse about the commission, Council of the EU or the EU parliament, their roles, functions and voting systems. Claiming that 'nobody knows who this or that guy is' is again just an emotional argument that speaks more about an ignorant population than it does the organisation.
So you don't think there's anything at all concerning about a population of people being governed by a literal jew cabal they have absolutely no recognition of who will take absolutely none of the blame if something goes awry under their government?
>Trade Barriers will be brought down
Sauce on this? Even then, there's still absolutely no reason to cede sovereignty in order to be a part of a trade bloc that essentially amounts to a bunch of people getting bullied into a bad deal while losing their sovereignty, and shitholes in crisis like Greece that HAVE to cede sovereignty to stay afloat, or be parasites to the productive states of the EU.
>immigration won't stop
UKIP got 13% of the vote last GE - for comparison, libdems got 8%, greens got 5%. Anti-immigration is only set to become a more powerful political force in the UK that could force something that looks more like a genuine conservative Tory government into a coalition with UKIP if not rebranding UKIP policies in order to appeal to that demographic.
>>77905374
NPR even had filthy fucking bootlickers trying to convince Americans Brexit was all a sham and the EU did nothing wrong.
I fucking hate NPR now. And this was RIGHT AFTER trying to convince Americans the phrase "the people" wasn't included in the 2nd amendment.
Fucking kike trickery I'm telling you, maybe they gave NPR a billion shekels or something.
But they are trying to fuck us over.
>>77904818
How can anything be ten times worse than zero control?
>>77904485
I'm not sure what 'UK sovereignty' necessarily means in the face of the EU.
Isn't a vote to remain also the decision of the UK population and it's sovereign government? When was the last time every member of parliament agreed on something? We negotiate all the time, and there is no reason to believe that a European person is wrong just because they're European. As I mentioned, the UK has been reforming the EU - even it;'s voting systems - in favour of the UK. Also, I don't see article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty disappearing anytime soon.
>>77903775
>Economic
British pound
>Immigration
Refugees
>Sovreignty
No Supreme Court, your parliament is literally a figurehead that can be overturned at anytime if the EU Supreme Court thinks so.
So if the people want a law passed, the EU can just veto it.
There's literally no reason to support remain. The EU is a crumbling shell of what it used to be.
>>77903628
This entire post is complete cancer. Deport the fucking muslims or have a continent wide race war again.
Your choice.
>>77903628
Please stay. Apparently cleaning our own toilets does not lead to prosperity and success.
End of.
>>77903775
Troll detected. Remain is full of shit on this topic to an extreme degree. It's based solely on fear, which you appear to want to spread here.
I've only skimmed over a small part of your post, it's not rational as you claim it to be it's instead entirely structured around desinforming and outright lying. You claim the EU has control over immigration while part of the EU, because you know "it has laws", this is dishonest as it ignores how the vast mayority of laws still do exist however aren't enforced a minor point you ignore.
Britain leaving the EU, would allow them to once again enforce these laws and tremendously clamp down on unwanted immigration, aswell as expell others who're currently mooching of benefits.
>>77906022
Based Hans
>>77903628
You're on /pol/ and you still don't want to vote LEAVE? Please tl;dr this shit for us.
>>77903628
Being inside a protectionist tariff walled trading bloc damaged companies competitiveness in the long term, in order to protect jobs in the short term.
It took Rover a long time to die, even though they were still using 1950s technology and engineering in the 90s.
Protectionism always fails eventually.
Long term it is cancer.
>>77905956
It's not just that, they argue in favour of the EU. The ONLY stagnant trading block, with stagnant basically being an attempt at putting a good spin on it. The EU is feeding off itself, devouring it's weaker economies to keep the stronger ones alive, this isn't sustainable at all.
The EU is absolutely anti democratic, it's not the "USE" it's the EUSSR. It's a dictatorship of the EU Commision and other shadowy unelected groups who don't answer to anyone but have every head of state answer to them. We're already in a position were the average politician primarly tries to appease them to secure their own future position inside the EU bureaucracy.
Hell the UK wouldn't even end up OUTSIDE the EU. The EU NEEDS the UK for trading purposes. Anything they threaten now will be as ineffectual as their threats towards others and never come to pass. It would harm the EU more than the UK. Then again, if the British leave, there likely WONT BE ANYMORE EU. The Brits would kick start the rapid desintegration, there is already a huge push towards more sovereignity and national control over their countries in many countries. If the Brits leave, others such as the Danes are certain to follow. Which would pave the way for Europe to build some real cooperation and trade alliances without all the red tape, rampant bureaucracy and megalomanic globalists currently in control of it.
Not your fucking blog
>>77903628
>that sounds like little more than an emotional argument
t. Cuck
>>77903775
>Leave has no economic, immigration or sovereignty argument
You're probably one of those shills that talks about "muh fishing industry" as if that's the only thing we'll get back. In terms of immigration, it isn't that bad now but it will be if we stay in the EU (like pretty much everything else). And sovereignty? What's bad about that?
>m-muh veto
The UK represents a tiny portion of the total EU parliament. If the EU decides something is "in our best interest", we're powerless to do anything about it.
tl;dr As it stands now we're a miserable puppet state of a crumbling globalist agenda that will only continue to get worse economically as the years go on. We never should have joined the EU in the first place, because now we've sadly become dependent on it, but all hope isn't lost. It will be if we choose remain, however.
>>77903628
>IM SWITICHING FROM LEAVE TO REMIAN!
No, you're not, you never made a decision in the first place, just like those "Brexit" MP's no one had heard of, who now say they're backing remain.
Just ask yourself, If we were already out of it, would you want to be in it ?
If not, then vote leave.
>>77906291
Short term solutions and focus is like shooting yourself in the head because you have a headache. Sure your headache will be gone but you'll also be dead.
The EU isn't even good at protectionism at that compared to other countries such as the Chinese. It's rather "artificially" keeping unviable and unprofitable industries alive while allowing outside groups to hollow out it's economy and mercilessly abuse it. Tjhis just ends up making things twice as bad.
It's like bringing in millions of refugees to produce short term demands for goods and services thus artificially propping up the economy as things are suddenly being sold. It ignores that it's ultimatively paid for with tax money, that it's a massive redistribution, not sustainable in the long run, fundamentally changes the ethnic make up and thus cultural norms and so on and on and on. It's the whole shooting yourself in the head to make a headache go away thing again.
>>77903628
So basically you a bitch ass nigga who got scurred by the media
>>77906590
The migrants are the bullet. Debt is the gun.
>>77903628
How's the shill life going mate?
>>77903628
they'll make you adopt the euro and more regulations from Brussels when Corbyn or some other Labor cuck wins
if you like your country as it is vote out
>>77903628
sovereignty is inherently more efficient economically and in terms of government representation
>>77905464
The UK has a first past the post voting system, allowing the recognition of rebellious votes without unduly ripping apart government.
>>77906022
Sure, the UK has laws surrounding immigration. But we aren't about to decrease immigration if we leave. There is no reason to believe a word from the Leave - or Remain - campaigner's mouths.
>>77906374
Join in or fuck off, Leaf.
>>77906291
Current EU policy is moving towards decreased protectionism, whilst ensuing that EU member states receive good trade deals. Bear in mind, I do not support the single currency precisely because it allows for massive abuse of nations.
Economies go up and down, getting out because of the EUro crisis seems weird, particularly as we don't have to support bailouts
>>77906839
>The UK has a first past the post voting system, allowing the recognition of legitimate votes without threatening the status quo
fixed also what's your point, shill?
>>77903628
>making a rational argument
>literally not one source, fact, statistic or hint of critical thought other than fallacious "I think" "I don't think" "Look at (unrelated example)".
Either you're a troll, shill, 15 years old or just fucking stupid.
>>77904249
They do if they don't want interference, you moron.
>>77906839
>But we aren't about to decrease immigration if we leave.
What? How? The EU imposes immigration quotas on all nations and it's the EU system that screens these people. The U.K. gets no say in who it accepts, how many it accepts or when they accept them.
By voting leave you remove any obligation to approve or take immigrants other than those imposed by the UN and those willingly accepted by the UK with its own screening process.
>>77903628
TL;DR you want to bend the knee to Brussels because you're too afraid of change to actually take a stand and are rationalizing
I hope every time you pass by a graveyard for the rest of your life you remember how you've betrayed thousands of years of ancestry and everyone buried there.
>>77907205
b-but muh pension
>>77906839
>Sure, the UK has laws surrounding immigration. But we aren't about to decrease immigration if we leave. There is no reason to believe a word from the Leave - or Remain - campaigner's mouths.
So you are trying to portray both sides as equally dishonest, adding in a wild claim you can't actually back up but present as fact, to try and push people to simply go for the "default" position solely because it is the default position.
Nice try, a completely made up argument but a nice try nontheless. Immigration would decrease, it would decrease for almost ALL Eu countries if they were to leave the EU. The only reason we are in this situation right now is because standing laws in almost ALL countries aren't being enforced. What is happening in countries such as Germany, Britain and so on is highly illegal and completely counter to the actual laws of these countries. But as the EU and "partner countries" have to be factored in and the EU Commision overrules everything nothing is being enforced right now.
Leaving the EU would remove a whole layer of EU laws, free movement, EU citizen rights in foreign countries (Polish in Britain for example), while also taking away the main reasons why standing laws aren't enforced anymore a the countries wouldn't have to be worried about how it affects others, nor accept any kind of demands from the EU Commision.
You're a liar, not even a good one. Your entire argument is build around desinformation, false comparisons, relativism aswell as funded upon hoping whomever you talk to doesn't have any kind of knowledge on the topic.
>>77906934
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-china-switzerland-watches-idUKBRE94Q06L20130527
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migrants-uk-overview
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/index_en.htm
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/extracts-from-the-chancellors-speech-on-europe
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277
>>77903628
You're clearly an idiot and your opinions should be ignored
>>77903628
>Now for my only pro-Brexit point: Sovereignty. I want the UK to be sovereign over it's laws, and to maintain influence independently over our neighbours across the world.
nigger this here is literally THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
if you give up your sovereignty then there is nothing stopping those plebs in brussel from taking all your shit, especially since the Eu army is on the horizon
trust me when I tell you that being a colony of marxist super state is shit and you should run while you can - just remember those who couldn't follow you and fallen
>>77903628
t. Jo Cox
>>77907480
Your shithole country would be nothing without EU grants.
>>77907480
>italy
who?
>>77906839
>Sure, the UK has laws surrounding immigration. But we aren't about to decrease immigration if we leave. There is no reason to believe a word from the Leave - or Remain - campaigner's mouths.
Have you taken in this months quota Nigel?
>>77906323
>>77906590
>>77907322
the words of wisdom
>>77907707
>Your shithole country would be nothing without EU grants.
from a perspective of western corporations surely
but from the perspective of Polish people the EU was a mistake
>>77907480
See this is exactly the kind of thing that means I haven't made up my mind yet.
>>77907205
That's something that is concerning me too. Have I lizardbrained myself into a decision and just started rationalising everything, or did I do that in the first place?
I'm gonna go ahead and concede the immigration point. You guys are right on it, and I was wrong.
>>77907478
Thanks for contributing and bumping this thread.
>>77903628
It doesn't matter if you left or stayed, England will be majority non-white, non-British when the boomers died anyway. It's your future to live in a country that is not British and does not hold traditional British values or culture. It literally wouldn't matter if the leave vote won, your government and the EU wouldn't let you leave, period. They have consolidated too much power into the EU bureaucracy for you to vote to leave. Voting wouldn't change a single thing. They will always point to all the shit they did to consolidate power as reasons why you shouldn't leave.
You gain nothing by leaving, you'll be ruled by leftist commies that intend to flood Europe and each country with non-whites. Just accept that the world is changing, whites will be a minority, and that these changes happened because of the actions of your forefathers. The time to stop and change it was 40 years ago.
Accept that your children will have to become Muslim, accept that your grandchildren won't look like you and won't know anything about your family history and look at their white side of the family with disdain. Get mentally prepared to see your counties greatest works and achievements destroyed and remodeled by people who aren't even ethnically English.
>>77903628
>muhammad is too much of a bitch to vote for change
lmao what a fucking loser. stick to fucking sheep, idiot.
>>77907322
Came here to tell OP why he is full of shit but you already did that for me. Thanks.
>>77908024
>You gain nothing by leaving
false - if they live they will still have a chance to fix shit up, but staying means certain decline
>sovereignty is just muh feels
11/10 bait, sir
>>77903628
>An appeal to the basest possible level of governance
How people view themselves within a democracy is incredibly important. People have to 'buy in' to the idea that their government is THEIR govt, otherwise they get detached and stop participating. This has already happened, even the British EU staff threw in the towel, with the best and brightest heading back to the UK.
The EU will either stagnate and become more and more irrelevant, as has happened with the UN, or it will break up anyway. It is too idealistic and unresponsive to survive and prosper
>>77908177
It doesn't change their own government. They're own government is full of the same leftist commies that work in the same vision and philosophy as the EU commies. It literally wouldn't make one bit of difference, and that's assuming if this vote automatically allowed Britain to leave, which it wouldn't.
It's just fucking retarded to think this vote matters and to have hope that things will get better because of a vote. You either kill your politicians and enforce new laws through force or they will always control the government and laws and policies regardless of what you voted.
I am now a #cruzmissile
>>77907386
>No EU wide money will be used to help bailout other EU members
Why the fuck are you apart of the EU then? The point is mutual dependence if the UK fails it will be propped up. Now who's going to give a shit when another EU country bankrupts itself? Not Uk, France, Germany, Sweeden etc because they don't have to bail anyone out. So literally your contributions don't mean shit, the protectionism doesn't mean anything since countries have no interest to trade with EU members who don't benefit them other than because it's forced on them by the EU.
Also
>BBC article
>No author
>How convenient
>Harms key Swiss industries
>the only reason Switzerland has seen falling trade with China is because it's not part of the EU instead of the fact that China is slowing dramatically
Sick fallicious argument.
>Foreign born people inside the UK
>This is 100% the same as Asylum seeking refugees
What do you expect to happen when Turkey is either accepted into the EU flooding britains with Turks or is rejected by the EU flooding Britain with refugees?
>>77908388
I guess I'm just unconvinced that feeling good about government actually changes anything. It smacks of the same bullshit as 'Diversity is our strength'.
>>77908268
It is bait, but is it wrong?
>>77903628
did you ever think about just killing yourself?
The choice is simple
The EU cannot continue in its current form because it is monstrously inefficient and can never get anything done
There are two choices
>collapse
Or
>further centralisation of power and closer political union
All of the important players in the EU are in favour of the latter option and openly advocate it. They have no interest in reforming the EU to be a looser association (why would they voluntarily decrease their own power? ) and they certainly do not want a collapse
A vote to remain is a vote to end Britain as a sovereign nation altogether. That is unless the EU collapses of its own accord, in which case we might as well have left beforehand
If you still want to remain knowing this then that's your lookout, but you need to be honest with yourself and with everyone else about what it is you are voting for
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB62oFdQa2c
DESHI DESHI
BASARA BASARA
DESHI DESHI
BASARA BASARA
>Sovreignty
>Emotional argument
Nigger, not having your own Supreme Court and regulatory bodies for manufacturing, agriculture or R&D.
Your vote for parliament in Britain is essentially token since your parliaments power is completely subservient to the EU beaurcrats since no law you pass can be passed without these regulatory bodies stepping in and anything that the EU doesn't like can be overturned since you have given your Supreme Court away.
You literally devalue your own vote and your own power to conclude your own destiny by staying in the EU since nothing you vote for matters since its superseded.
>>77908398
>It doesn't change their own government. They're own government is full of the same leftist commies that work in the same vision and philosophy as the EU commies.
true, but as long as they remain sovereign nation they can change their government or even the whole political system
kicking the cuckmeron and replacing him with pic related is something they can do if they feel like it, as long as they are not EU colony
>>77908852
The same people control both. It doesn't matter if they stayed or left, the people keep voting for the same sack of shit.
>>77907322
Well done Germany, there is hope for your nation yet.
>>77908713
As it stands I just shitpost to see how many libtards I can trigger on facebook. I'm not sure which is better. The fact that the UK can influence reform makes it a much more attractive proposition.
>>77908477
With the Swiss thing, I mean that China leverages it's greater power to maintain high tariffs on things the swiss wants to sell, whilst maintaining their own reduced tariffs on selling shit to the Swiss. I didn't mention the slow down in trade, that's a "sick fallicious argument"
>>77908852
Lawmaking is for pussies anyway. Last time I checked the UK is pushing through fairly radical NHS reform without the waiting for the EU to approve.
>>77903628
So you want the EU to artificially stunt your production industries with quotas, allow immigrant workers in droves(this lowers income as workforce is saturated, puts pressure on housing, medical and entry level + high skill work positions) as well as be subject to the bureaucrats whims without having the ability to voice your opinion in the EU.
And what exactly is the pro from this free trade? holidays in Spain?
Free trade with the EU is a joke, at the expense of this you gimp your own production quotas and are subject to red tape from Brussels making starting your own business a legal nightmare.
>>77909162
>lawmaking is for pussies
For the record it took the UK 15 years to expel ONE towelhead terrorist preacher because it was against his rights as an EU citizen.
Now why the fuck would you want to remain in such a shit tier legal system?
>>77903628
Fucking shill scum. If you think concentrating power over all of Europe in a single power structure is a good idea, you are a corporate/EU shill period.
People exploit positions of power - that is a fact - and the EU concentrates power while removing national sovereignty and the rights of the people, empowering globally rooted corporations (and shitting on all small businesses with regulations designed to remove their agency completely). It is literally a fucking dictatorship that gives the people no say in who is ruling them and instating laws. You are the enemy of any free person, and are communist globalist subhuman trash.
Everyone calls me shill scum, interspersed with convincing arguments for voting to Leave.
I came here for discussion, and I am getting it. Thanks /pol/
>>77909346
Reduced trade barriers improve economies for all parties - the benefit is more jobs and improved quality of life because the country has more money.
>>77909162
Because China totally doesn't leverage its massive power against a union that's on its last legs and needs any sort of trade deals.
Yeah if Switzerland wasn't in the EU they wouldn't get rammed by China, but they would also lose a ton of its banking sector thanks to the EU banking laws.
>>77909748
>Reduce trade barriers
>By artificially creating external trade barriers to make domestic trade more preferable
Artificially creating a trade barrier and then presenting the demolishing of domestic trade barriers as a solution is bound to fail.
>>77909924
I'm sorry, could you explain what you mean by 'creating external trade barriers'? I assumed that trade outside of the EU would follow at most WTO rules.
>>77903628
Stop thinking your vote matter fuckhead, the globalists own your sorry ass (and mine too).
>>77909748
Don't you realise the EU is basically holding us hostage? http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/20/world/europe/britain-referendum-brexit-european-union.html
Britain did fine when it wasn't in the EU, but now that you're in it's a sort of "once you enter, you may never leave" mentality. Why would you even put a price-tag on real democracy and self-determination?
Can anyone explain why regulation is an EU problem when they are deregulating (heavily spurred on by us Brits)
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/linda-kaucher/eu's-giant-and-secretive-deregulation-blitz
>>77903628
>But in <current year> that sounds like little more than an emotional argument. An appeal to the basest possible level of governance.
You're wrong. It is the single most important issue at stake here. A Bremain vote will be taken as a signal of approval for the globalists.
>>77910063
Purposefully constructing and maintaining tariffs against major trading partners like China and the USA to encourage internal domestic production and sales of goods is artificially creating a trade barrier.
This doesn't work well when you only have about 3 main producing 'states' which all countries buy off and then the 3 producing states send the money they earnt from producing back to the buying countries so they can buy more things from them again.
The EU is failing because it has become so totalitarian compared to its original form, simply designed as a multi-lateral trade deal to encourage trade within nations to recover quicker from WWII, nations still had the ability to negotiate their own international trade deals and tariffs.
But since the EU now has majority nations by the balls, it can bully even the larger nations into falling in line with its international trade policy.
>>77903628
Aaaaaand another EU shill.
>>77903628
You're a moron. You should slit your wrists immediately.
>>77910261
If deregulation is good, why not simply vote leave and remove all regulation? Because the EU will never remove its majority unnecessary red tape because it's simply to big and deregulating too far allow autonomy within states to self-regulate which the EU doesn't want
>>77909748
>>77910063
>Reduced trade barriers improve economies for all parties
EU is notorious for being a shit negotiator of trade, and the EU does this on your behalf to other trading blocs.
>>77910261
It took from Britain joining the EU until now to deregulate(whilst EU created more regulations) now defunct laws, they are simply doing it now because the UK might leave, you also miss the point of joining the EU it was supposed to ease trade barriers but now it is one, and it also creates dead ends for industries via relocating quotas thus artificially stunting the economy
>>77903628
You're doing the right thing.
>>77910585
The EU where smart and ingrain most of the regulations within the British ones, this is just a step in the right direction towards domestic deregulation that should have happened decades ago.
>>77910261
They're paying lip service for the most part rather than actually deregulating anything. The EU Commision is constantly trying to increase it's power and throw on more and more layers of red tape on the singular nation states inside of it as it attempts to break them down into something more akin to federal states in the US.
Even now they're attempt to seize power, this time around real power in the form of an Pan European Army under their command. The funding for this army would come from the singular nation states, i.e the armies they currently hold themselves. Replacing them slowly but certainly with an army for the EU Administration, removed from the countries and people.
Worse, the way they're going about things, regulations, imposing laws is very similar to how the Soviets did it. It's a central planned scheme, one of the worst methods people came up with that has ruined the entire Warsaw Pact and they're increasingly reproducing it.
>>77903628
Faggot
>>77903628
Both options are bad options.
Remaining is sending a message to the EU that you're their bitch and you can't ever again have opt outs at anything even again. Enjoy the EU army and other BS underfunded and mismanaged shit that's going to come out of Brussels in the next decade.
Leave means that you loose your place on the table, and your veto, and then the EU demands freedom of movement and other shit as part of the following trade agreement that everyone in the leave campaign wants to do (Switzerland style buttfuck, where you have to accept EU workers). Remember, even if you leave, you'd still have Cameron at the helm, he is not remotely base and the point system is out of question for him. So enjoy Commonwealth migrants instead of Europeans.
Probably the least bad option right now is remain. Which is what will happen regardless of outcome. Trust me and other EU fellas, we know from experience. Referendums on the EU are a bad idea because they are irrelevant. If you wanted to leave what you should have done is elected a based government that would lead you out of the EU immediately. Anything else, won't work.
>>77913320
Oh fuck off shill. There is NO PLACE ON THE TABLE. You guys keep bringing this up some kind of weird argument. Britains vote has not ONCE had an influence on any outcome. Which means they might aswell not have been there.
The table itself is about to disappear entirely, as the EU Commision is pushing to replace it with a court house where they're just issuing their commands down to everyone else.
Remain is in almost every single last way the worse option.
>http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/20/brexit-fears-spark-surge-in-uk-lawyers-applying-to-work-in-ireland?CMP=share_btn_tw
Even your lawyers are leaving in record numbers! 186! Thats a really insignificant number but i think it might mean something!
>>77914036
It is a valid argument. Cyprus is a country of a million people and its keeping Turkey out of EU institutions with threats of veto and with rejecting ascension documents.
If Britain has to follow EU laws that are against its interests now they can at least threat to veto them, or actually grow some balls and do veto them.
EEA and EFTA countries don't have that option, and if Britain joins their ranks, the EU will do things they always wanted to do that Britain never let them. And the worst part, is that these laws Britain will have to follow regardless of their membership or not.
>>77903628
The argument regarding sovereignty is the best and only argument that should be needed.
Our historic position of being largely outside of Europe (Splendid Isolation etc) has left us with few genuine friends in the EU, this means that when a vote comes we can't get our friends to help us since we have no friends. Equally because we were outside continental affairs for so long we can't really strong arm people into agreeing with us the same way Germany can.
A nice example of how weak our presence in the EU is is recent EU port legislation. UK ports are much more independent than most ports in other EU countries and UK port business is conducted very differently. Recent EU legislation was universally agreed to be bad for UK ports and was opposed by every UK MEP, UK port authorities and Trade Unions. The legislation still passed and the regulations will soon be forced upon us.
Sovereignty is only partially an emotional argument. It gives genuine practical advantages, for example the UK MPs are much more likely to care about what goes on in the UK than MEPs from other nations, for example if legislation benefits Greece but will put people in the UK out of a job Greek MPs will vote in favour of it as it benefits their people. At the very least MPs have to have some recognition of public opinion as their job depends on their popularity/effectiveness.
Simply put, as long as nations act in their own self interest in the European Parliament, which they will as is human nature, the UK will have little to no genuine power in the EU. This problem will get worse should the EU expand to other countries.
Also talk of a veto is often exaggerated, veto's can't be used on just any legislation, only particular veto's work on particular types of legislation. We had to give one veto up as part of Cameron's laughable "re-negotiation".
When Cameron says we have an opt-out of "ever closer union" this is technically true but it can be overruled by an EU parliament majority
>>77903628
Traitor cunt.
>>77914507
>0.05 were deposited into your account by ISIL
>>77914507
No, it's not. Every single last vote of Great Britain has been overruled and thrown out. Meaning the place at the table is one of an observer who gets to stare in abject horror. Worse they're removing said table altogether and soon you just get a seat in the slave galley as the EU autocrats consolidate their power.
Turkey has been kept out for a variety of reasons not concerning Cyprus for the most part and they're working about bringing them in ANYWAY despite the damage this will do.
And if Britain leaves the EU, the EU goes down in flame a decade or two earlier before it would anyway, with far less bloodshed, damage and horror than it will do by that point. The EU HAS TO DIE and the autocrats alongside it. Aswell as their spindoctors such as you. Scum.
>>77903628
.t Traitorous Cunt
>>77903628
>There will be plenty of immigrants if we stay or leave. We have control over immigration from Asia, the Americas and Africa, and that immigration isn't about to stop.
No you don't
Good goy. I was going to call you a racist right wing bigot if you were going to vote leave. It seems that the scare campaign has worked well on you! Who really cares about sovereignty and democracy anyways, right? Its 2016 and we need to be together, NO BORDERS.
>>77903628
>"I'm switching from Leave to Remain"
>"I want the UK to be sovereign over it's laws"
doesn't add up
>>77916734
I know you want the EU to die and I am not really against that, but Brexit will actually prolong the suffering for all of us. Here is why:
If there even is a brexit, the Brittish PM is going to be Cameron. He's gonna face hardship in his interaction with Europe and the US. He is going to fail.
For you to really support Brexit, you have to believe this guy can make it outside the EU, forge the deal necessary to keep Britain running and prospering and manage the shitstorm and the uncertainty in the financial markets his move will create, and institute the point migration system. ONLY THEN will Britain become an example to emulate for other EU countries. If Britain exits and its businesses fail, and it takes years to forge Trade agreements with 3rd countries and it is suddenly gets filled with 3rd grade Commonwealth niggers, this will move the Eurosceptic agenda 10 years back.
Brexit, unorganized and done by people who are incompetent, is actually a bad idea. It will make people rally around the Eurocrats and their BS.
yeah alright cuckboy, enjoy being chased down by muslims in <10 years
>>77903628
there are literally pro eu shills posting on this board right now
>>77903628
>So, I'm switching from Leave to Remain in the EU referendum.
Good for you.Now you can have epic banter threads against leave faggots and laugh at them when your country remains.
This is the smart banter choice.
I wish i had the british flag just so i can make threads like these to trigger americlaps and their britcucked counterparts.
>>77903628
I visited London last week.
May God have mercy on your country, anon.
If not for Liverpool, I'd say UK is no more. Still some hope
>>77917542
>"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
All you are trying to do, is to get people to not even try because "Come on guys, let's give up, it's pointless. I am totaly not being paid!". Them voting out is important, solely because it will incite and enrage even more people, even those who voted remain but lost when the EU simply tells them they have no right to do so and to go bugger off. You know that, which is why you want them to be obedient to begin with.
If a Brexit happens, it wont strenghten the EU or raise their approval. It will devastate the EU. You are advocating for compliance, non action and obedience pretending this would be the right choice, because otherwise people might be obedient and not take actions.
It's an absolute non argument. It's like saying people who don't want to die should shoot themselves in the head to prevent others from killing them. It's idiotic.
How can you live with yourself, there's no way anyone can pay you enough to do what you're doing here. Have you no conscience whatsoever? Hell you wont even be able to do much with the money, not that you'll get it for long. Stuff is going to get bad, real bad quickly anyway and it's people like you who cause it to get worse.
>>77903628
Yes, you found the truth, friend. Now go and prevent Brexit.
>>77917542
>It will make people rally around the Eurocrats
Breh, if Brexit happens, EU is dead in 10 years
>>77918523
I am not advocating for compliance, I am advocating for having an actual strategy. If there is one place in Europe that has experienced what not having a strategy VS the Eurocrats is Greece. What we did is retarded and what Britain is about to do is equally retarded.
We are fighting masterminds of politics, not cartoon villains. Saying no because it will make us feel better has been proven to be ineffective. Everyone who tried it can tell you that much.
Don't repeat what has proven to not work.
If you want to leave the EU your country must have a government that is committed to doing that from day one.
>>77903628
Then you have no fucking clue about the TTIP or the TPP
>>77919181
>If Brexit happens, EU is dead in 10 years
No.
If Brexit happens AND Britain is better off afterwards, THEN AND ONLY THEN will the Eu die in 10 years.
>>77919711
>AND Britain is better off afterwards
This is pretty much a given. EU can't fund all those shit tier countries like Ukraine and Greece, that can't even get their own economy together, without some sugar daddies.
Although I do expect salty eurocrats to sanction the shit out of the UK, out of pure spite.
>>77919849
>Although I do expect salty eurocrats to sanction the shit out of the UK, out of pure spite.
Why are we even arguing then? You know what's happening.
>>77919711
Can't wait 10 years.
What you want to do is open renegotiations while President Trump is in office so he can help work out a better deal as a 3rd party.
>>77919931
I'm not confident that they'll get away with it with a broken EU, they'll be the kings of a shit pile
>>77903628
If you leave I can leave too.
Fuck denbts.
>>77920138
The problem is that Eurocrats are always willing to play every card on the deck to keep their Empire. And Britain just isn't right now. They can always outfund you and they can outlast you. In terms of influence around the world, there is no contest.
The Brittish upon exit are about to enter a battle that they should know, cant win, at least not directly.
What the Eurocrats will do after Brexit is cut off Britain from the single market and demand Britain accept Freedom of movement and subjugation under EU law for them to give them access again, then hand them a EEA and EFTA membership and make it the new Norway - oil. And pending economic collapse, Britain will do it. Think they can't do that? They did the same thing to during on our referendum. They went as far as to break EU law, stopped providing currency to our banks as if we're out of the Eurozone forcing the government to impose capital controls. When they got the no, they took their proposal from the table and they gave us a worse one.
Their message is clear: DON'T MAKE US LOOK BAD. WE CAN DESTROY YOU. And in all honestly they can. They can destroy anyone of us. And not just us, they can do it to the UK as well. How? Well... Scottish FM has even suggested what's happening after the referendum. She is going to speak directly with the EU on accession.
They are going to try and break the UK apart, then point to it and say: "See what happens when you don't agree with us?"
Currently we're fighting the EU as if we were sovereign democracies but we aren't anymore. The rules of honest warfare don't apply when the enemy is that much bigger. We need gorilla tactics.
In the quest for Europeans to end the European Union Britain is necessary! And if it goes alone and loose early, this is the end of it all for the rest of us. Don't give them the pleasure.
>>77903628
What kind of sovereignty will it be? Sovereignty of liberal politicians who act as lobbyists and don't represent the state? Will leaving the EU destroy multiculturalism or degeneracy?
>>77919547
Your shill tactics are quite interesting. You are overstating the opposition "political masterminds" while selling short everyone else "not having an actual strategy". You then switch to advocate for some undefined "coming up with a strategy" which for the most part already exists annd hinting at some endless planning, decision making, build up and so on having to take place. Something which could be endless move further and further, as there's no definite goal or point to reach, allowing you to basically just get people to stay within the system and be ineffective never taking any action.
The situation with Greece was fundamentally different than it is for the UK. The UK is a NET PAYER, not a NET TAKER. Even then, unlike the British the Greek only ever threatened to get a better deal, not because they were serious about leaving. For the British, leaving was the entire point.
I'm by now willing to move you from "insufferable leftists" into shill territory. You're showing ALL the signs of one, you have the rhetoric down, the same as hollow "calling for people to be reasonable" aswell as trying to fit in and act as if you'd fundamentally agree.
>>77919181
If the British, leave, the EU is dead. It's that easy. Not in 10 years, not in 10 months. It's dead. It might not collapse instantly but it's gone and done in that very moment. The Danes would want out, the Swedish would want out and a bunch of others would also. It sets a precedence and it ends the "no country has ever left" thing. The EU on it's own, even with the Brits leaving is unlikely to exist in 10-20 years because it is already being torn apart by internal and external forces. A Brexit would just kick start it way earlier. Which is why it needs to happen and why spin doctors like that guy posing as Greek are trying to keep Britain from voting leave.
>>77921439
What you should do right now if you're British is sign petitions for the referendum to not happen at all, so that neither bad outcome of remain or leave occurs. And when the next election comes, do everything in your power to campaign for Ukip and vote for Ukip.
Make Nigel the PM, and it's over. He knows what to do.
>>77921508
>>77921763
First of all, read this >>77921439
Secondly how is this shill tactics? It's pragmatism.
The EU isn't a democracy, it doesn't care about referendums, everyone who says that your vote really matters, is lying. Your feelings towards EU policy won't change EU policy, and Eurocrats don't want you fighting against them, and they can and will punish you for it.
Which of these is not true?
>>77903628
>But in <current year> that sounds like little more than an emotional argument.
That depends. It is not an abstract thing, actually. At the moment, you can elect anyone you want to Parliament, but they will only be able to create legislation that is in line with European Union legislation. And the bandwidth allowed by European Union standards is getting smaller and smaller. Meanwhile, you're in a political union with 27 other countries, so in effect you could say that at this very moment, the British people can hardly even influence the legislation made by their own representatives. If you call that an emotional argument - your inability to create any legislation that contradicts European Union legislation, even if such legislation would be necessary to avoid a natural disaster or a civil war - then so be it.
>But if we do end up with a USE
Actually, the intentions of the European Union's leaders are not the same as the most likely outcome. Look at how different countries and governments are talking about each other now. Look at the cartoons that German newspapers are running of fat, lazy Greeks, and how the Greeks are accusing the Germans of being a bunch of Nazis and threatening to send more migrants to Germany if Germany doesn't bail them out. Do you really think countries that can't stand each other now will peacefully unite? Of course not. The likely outcome is a simmering political conflict leading to the disintegration of the European Project. And if Britain is outside of that mess, you'll be in a better position to help the rest of us if you so choose.
>And there is no way to escape that union.
There is a door that you can use to escape. It opens and closes on Thursday, so be there.
>>77922248
>Secondly how is this shill tactics? It's pragmatism.
No, it's defeatism dressed up as pragmatism. Pretending people are better off by just giving up and in. By playing up the dangers they face and trying to frighten them.
The EU can't destroy the UK anymore than they could destroy Russia. They can rant and rave but ultimatively the EU needs the UK more than the other way around. You act as if they're an invincible powerhouse that will just tell the UK to split and the UK will oblige, that's not going to happen. In fact the EU will be too busy falling apart from doing much of anything if the UK votes for a Brexit.
The EU not being a democracy is especially why this referendum matters and why Brexit is so important. Because unlike most other votes, this one is far further reaching and has more consequences than any of the others they brushed off. This one is big, extremly so. Them ignoring this isn't just going to piss off the British and actually strenghten support for leaving, it's going to give nationalism across Europe a huge boost which is already rising.
You know this, which is why they pay people like you to dry and get the Brits to vote for remain. So you can continue to bleed us for another 10-20 years before the entire thing comes crashing down and you dodge out of here.
>>77903628
>In terms of immigration: I really couldn't care less.
What a complete and utter moron you are.
>>77903993
That's a nice summary actually
>>77921763
>The EU not being a democracy is especially why this referendum matters and why Brexit is so important. Because unlike most other votes, this one is far further reaching and has more consequences than any of the others they brushed off. This one is big, extremly so. Them ignoring this isn't just going to piss off the British and actually strenghten support for leaving, it's going to give nationalism across Europe a huge boost which is already rising.
I can only hope you're right about this, but everything we know so far point against this. It's irrational to expect to gain your independence democratically from an empire. It has never happened.
>You know this, which is why they pay people like you to dry and get the Brits to vote for remain. So you can continue to bleed us for another 10-20 years before the entire thing comes crashing down and you dodge out of here.
Oh boy I wish I was paid, but I am just procrastinating desu. You know what I'll stop. I spent a lot of time writing all of this. In all honestly I hope you're right.
And in the end I don't give 2 shits whether or not Britain remains or goes. I have more important things to worry about.
>>77906323
Please put this in a sticky on front page.
>>77921439
>>77921864
But firstly, that's literally getting cucked into oblivion. If they indeed threaten to fuck over UK like that, then more the reason to leave. This will only get worse over time. UK is big enough politically and economically to fight the EU, it's the only country that can actually leave and survive. Greece is, no offense, small time. Secondly intra-EU trade depends a lot on UK, leaving the EU will hurt the EU as well and they, or the participating countries might be forced to start trade deals with the UK. Even more failing industries would only weaken the EU even further. Besides, there are enough countries that hate the EU, Russia can be a strong trading country, China, etc.
This is the only time there is an actual chance, the stakes are too high and there is too much publicity to just drop. Farage would be either exiled by the left or assassinated before he even comes close to PM.
Is it the ideal setting? No
Is it the only chance probably in the next several decades? Yes
>>77903628
>So, I'm switching from Leave to Remain in the EU referendum.
Good decision mate. Let's fix Europa together. Leaving is a cop out.
>>77903628
>currently undergoing that change in position
I didn't know you had to cut your dick off to vote remain
>>77903628
Yes good goy vote for what's best for germ... great britain i mean
