Explain to me what Marxism is without looking it up on the internet. I want to see if this image is true.
>>77365013
>Mexican
>asking about marxism
I have an odd feeling you're about to tell me I'm wrong no matter what I say.
Marxism is a type of worldview.
Applied marxism usually results in a welfare state or a totalitarian communist regime where everyone is poor.
>>77365013
SEIZE
THE
MEANS
OF
PRODUCTION
>>77365013
religious evil welfare good ooga bounga.
economic ineptitude
>>77365013
>Hello, my name is Carol Marx, I'm a cuck and filthy neckbread who was fucked by simple mechanisms of economy and this is my book, how to fuck everything up even more, gib everything to everyone and supporting weak units in society just because social justice
>>77365757
>Applied marxism usually results in a welfare state or a totalitarian communist regime where everyone is poor
You see, Marx's goal or, method of transforming a capitalist society to a communist society was so that a leader or group of people could control the capitalist infrastructure. Then, after it's all set for a communist society, there would be no leaders.
>>77365887
That's a part of it
>>77365987
Welfare isn't a part of Marxist ideology. Also, even though Marx is quoted as saying "religion is an opiate to the masses" the end goal of Marxism would allow free religion.
>>77366542
Explain the basis of your claims
>>77366564
And that always worked out, right Paco?
>>77366564
>the state withers away
Time to go into the anarchist corner.
>>77365013
P U R E
I D E O L O G Y
>>77365013
You shouldn't need more than this image to form an opinion of Marxism.
>>77366564
>there would be no leaders
We all know this would turn into anarchy war would solve it all out. Ambition is a human trait, you cannot work against it, you must embrace it, like capitalism does.
>>77366976
Nah, this is "real" communism and that's the sad part. The only difference is the economic system.
>>77366708>>77365013
What does it matter? The Marxist ideal is unattainable because it doesn't account for human nature. It's a futile dream that is too easily exploited.
>mexican intellectual
Historical Materialist way of viewing society that argues that capitalist societies eventually give way to socialist societies. Anything more than that are meme additions
>>77365013
I could tell you that, or I could send you to a gulag.
>>77367251
>We all know this would turn into anarchy war would solve it all out.
And the result would be the best organized group winning.
Color me surprised when it's an ethnocentric capitalist society.
>>77367543
Like Russia?
>>77365013
Marxists are people who autisticly boil history down to socio-economics
>>77367543
Exactly my point, communism cannot work in the real world, it's not compatible with human nature. Capitalism on the other hand is.
>>77366782
No. Now I don't agree with Marx (power corrupts)
I just wanted to see if /pol/ really is retarded as I though. I saw an image around here claiming that Leon Trotsky invented the word racism to silence political opponents, which is retarded.
>>77366837
Your point? What Mao and Lenin did wasn't even real communism, it was totalitarianism. Now you'll tell me North Korea is socialist.
>>77367231
Look above
>>77367251
>>77367543
>no leaders means no laws
Look at Aragon and Catalonia during the Spanish civil war as an example of libertarian sociaism
>>77367282
>>77367738
>human nature
define "human nature" and tell me how communism would contradict it
What is it about marxists that make them the most deluded and smug cucks on the planet
>>77368013
how so
>>77365013
There's too many different flavors of marxism to sum it all up perfectly, but in general it's about social ownership of the means of production.
Marxism is just the replacement of private property with public property. That's it.
>muh wasn't real communism
seriously? fuck off you stupid beaner
>>77367801
Marxists have a billion different definitions they use and go by
anarchist, syndicalist, bolshevik, menshevik, etc
they're all different shades of the same flavor
In short they try to be scientific with all these different classifications
They autisticly make new ones all the time (such as the precariat) which is why they lend themselves so well to identity politics
>>77367801
>"human nature"
Depends on the group of people in question.
Generally speaking Whites are extremely competitive and will not settle for less, even if they are forced to.
Besides, at the same time I can ask you to define what "human nature" permits everyone to be completely placated with "being equal", and then naming a real work example of such. I will immediately point out "cavemen"/other non-technological tribes as invalid.
>Look at Aragon and Catalonia during the Spanish civil war as an example of libertarian sociaism
Mind giving me a short summary?
>>77367801
>Spanish civil war
Man you're right
That was such a great time
>>77365013
>check flag
>>77368466
>Catalonia during Spanish civil war
>no centralized army
>no courts
>feminist movements
>conscription
>forced colectivism
A few to mention. I tihnk OP is shilling or is scrapping the barrel.
>>77369012
"libertarian socialism"
Pretty liberal interpretation of something that literally cannot exist as it violates libertarian principles.
Sounds like communist revolutionaries trying to grab power in a destabilized region of a nation in civil war.
kek.
>>77365013
I can do it in 4 words
DUDE
FREE
SHIT
LMAO
>>77369363
libertarian socialism is a meme that noam chomsky popularized to indoctrinate college kids even more
>>77369363
>Sounds like communist revolutionaries trying to grab power in a destabilized region of a nation in civil war.
That's literally exactly what it was. Wasn't really pleasant.
>>77369012
You forgot to mention the killings of priests and various atrocities commited by them.
>>77366564
>Then, after it's all set for a communist society, there would be no leaders.
because that's exactly what happened in every single communist societym right?
>b-but it wasn't real communism! It will work this time I promise!
Marxism is the implementation of both economic and social equality of results. It is implemented through:
Wealth redistribution
Policing of the workplace
Destruction of property rights
Centralization of commerce, economy, transport, communication, manufactre and education.
>>77365013
look out your window, pedro
>>77365013
>NO PROPERTY FOR YOU
>ALL PROPERTY FOR US JEWS
That's literally it. If you think the Jews will permit you a single crumb without paying for it, you just don't know Jews.
>>77369617
>murderous pursuit of Christianity
sounds jewish
>>77365013
Cannot be defined because according to all those who espouse the ideology, it has never been practiced, therefore, it has never been seen in reality, thus there is no precedent or example of it, thus leaving it in the realm of theory which of course is meaningless.
Why the fuck are you idiots hating on marx? He wrote a book and told a story thats it. Just cause half of the shit he says wont work in real life doesnt mean he needs to be hated.
Just point out the stupidity take out what little is good from it (not EVERYTHING he said was shit) and move on.
Hate the people practicing his words not the guy who wrote them.
>>77365013
>/pol/
>blue board
>no flag
Does not compute.
>>77367231
http://www.petersaysstuff.com/2014/05/attempting-the-impossible-calculating-capitalisms-death-toll/
>>77370036
>in the realm of theory which of course is meaningless.
Are you even paying attention. This is what cultural Marxism does to everything.
Have you seen what passes for art these days?
Do you not know that a boy can be a girl and a girl can be a boy now?
Do you not see the subtle machinations by which Marxism renders all things permissible with the sole aim of making even theft and genocide permissible by default?
If not. I'm sorry. I'm sure it hurts to be you.
>>77365013
It is much closer to slavery then welfare state.
Children think you get paid to sit on your ass in a communist society
But the truth you will be forced to work for a state owned company for the same wages as anybody else.
>>77370120
He needs to burn in hell. All people must be held accountable for their crimes.
Fuck Marx and his glorious cumbeard.
>>77370191
>blue board
correct
>no flag
newfag?
>>77370199
>every war fought by a capitalist nation is fought in the name of capitalism
wew. Commies literally killed political dissidents. It's not comparable.
>>77370562
>crimes
>literlay killed no one.
Burn the marxists and the jews not the guy who said something. Its literlay just like how sjw s fuck a man cause he said something like blacks are inferior. LITERLAY THE SAME RETHORIC.
>>77370448
Marxism is not "cultural Marxism", they were created at separate times with alternative goals. The key point to draw is, Marxism wants to create a communist world, "cultural Marxism" has the express purpose of undermining Western society and values, though does not necessarily facilitate acceptance of communism. Widespread porn viewership is due to Das Kapital? That's a leap m8.
Living backwards and convincing the population that it's normal to live like that
>>77370191
given the post number count it must be either /lit/ or /his/
>>77365013
its rule of few people who knows best, and only they will make decisions, and only they will be gods, judge, jury and executioners... It some very stupid shit that ruined my country
>>77368267
It wasn't. I don't get how this is a wrong or bad statement?
>>77368285
But those are all real ideologies. It's like saying right wingers are autistic because of all the different ideologies on the right like fascism, conservatism, paleo-conservatism, etc
>>77369363
pic related
if I recall he said something like "we have captured the word libertarianism from the left"
You people seem to forget the fact that the church in Spain were active in supporting Franco and that the killings only started when the fascists made a move on them.
>>77370191
That was on 8gag /pol/
>>77369965
>communism = big gubermand
go read on some shit
>>77369802
I never said that method would work. It doesn't
>>77370605
>what is the iraq and afghan war
"muh oil"
>>77371115
>what is the iraq and afghan war
Not fought in the name of capitalism
>>77371115
Also:
"This question is often asked by those who have come across the so-called "libertarian" right. The word libertarian has been used by anarchists for far longer than the pro-free market right have been using it. In fact, anarchists have been using it as a synonym for anarchist for over 150 years, since 1858. In comparison, widespread use of the term by the so-called "libertarian" right dates from the 1970s in America (with, from the 1940s onwards, limited use by a few individuals). Indeed, outside of North America libertarian is still essentially used as an equivalent of anarchist and as a shortened version of libertarian socialist."
>>77371200
It largely benefited the capitalists. Also
>what are piss poor working conditions in 3rd world countries
>>77371115
>"we have captured the word libertarianism from the left"
But this isn't about libertarianism. Marx postulated that the state would wither away, which implies anarchy.
Self-governing of individuals or small groups of people in a capitalist society is already hard to theorize about, how would you accomplish wealth equality without a central power?
>>77365013
the ending of ownership of private property
Why mexican "chairos" loves Marx and Lenin and suck their cocks like if they were gods?
I swear I've seen more Marx/Lenin books and shirts in the bus or the subway than our own national heroes like Juarez, Zapata, Morelos, etc....
>>77365013
>literal mexican godless leftist commie
Are you a living parody?
the first analysis of capitalism and its consequences
>>77371492
>It largely benefited the capitalists
It benefited the military-industrial complex, but that's not killing in the name of an ideology like Communists have done throughout history.
Piss poor working people in the third world would be worse off without capitalism.
>>77367646
Except russia never had a period of paper communism.
To imply that the revolutionary period was anarchic and not based entirely on pre revolutionary economic status is stupid.
>>77365013
>>77366564
>>77366708
>>77367801
>>77368124
>>77371115
>>77371492
>/pol/
>blue board
>only the 248,382 posts
>no flags (assuming this was made after 2014)
Get this shitty bait outta here, commie.
>>77371585
Again
>no rulers means no rules
the state would set up the communes first, then militias to keep things in check
>>77371690
>>77371842
>implying I suck marx's and lenin's cock
>implying i'm a mexican
>>77371938
once again, it was on 8gag /pol/
>>77371858
>implying killings of political dissidents in capitalist countries never happened
>forgetting about Pinochet and his free market
Also, how would they be better off with capitalism?
India was a magnificent region, then the fucking British came.
>>77371842
meant to reply to>>77371779
>>77372322
>implying killings of political dissidents in capitalist countries never happened
Not nearly to the scale of communists.
>Also, how would they be better off with capitalism?
Because they would just starve to death instead of working for a wage.
>>77367801
Ok I'll bite.
Communism ignores human greed and laziness.
People are greedy and that's not a bad thing. We live in a complex system that's governed by emergent behavior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system.
Greed gives us competition, competition gives us cooperation, cooperation gives us self-organization and further techonological advancement. Money isn't the cause of greed, It's just an outlet. You can be equally greedy over any other object. Getting rid of any economic system ain't gonna change human nature.
People are also lazy and that's not a bad thing either, we seek to get the maximum possible output with as little work as possible. Our laziness gave us industrialization and autimatization. Take it out and I don't believe we would advance technologically. There would be no inovation. No competition. In your marxist utopia, who cares about making a technological inovation? It brings nothing in return to the creator or company? It brings nothing to the company who makes the newest, fastest, safest car. After all, everything is generic anyway and there can only be 1 car company.
And if there were say 2 car companies, why would a company waste it's time developing a better car? Even if people chose to have their car provided by the other company, is car company 1 negatively effected by that? No. Car company 1 does less work now and it's actually an easier job for them. I guess they could do it for fame, but there is no fortune.
The only thing I see spurring technological advancement is the now unhindered human curiosity. Very powerful, yes, but even then, who are gonna do the jobs that are currently awful and unpopular but also very profitable?
This may be plausible in a distant future when in theory, technology takes care of all our production. But it's going to take a bloody revolution to overthrow all the banks and the wealthy. And what happens when we have bloody revolutions against rich people?... history.
>>77365013
>what Marxism is
Failure
>>77365013
/thread
You can go back to Plebbit now.
>Two neckbeards from Germany with Das Kapital,
>In year Seventeen Red-lords in their Russian dome,
>And bunch of other trials doomed to die,
>One Book form the Economist on his wooden chair
>In the Land of Austria where the Reason lie.
>One Book to contr them all, One Book to ridicule them,
>One Book to broke them all and in the light destroy them
>In the Land of Austria where the Reason lie.
>>77372322
Then I assume you're from leftypol.
Go back to seekrit club chan and stay there, pinko.
>>77372505
>not nearly to the scale of communists
>Hitler
>they would starve
they're starving right now, what's your point
>>77372584
You seem to forget that in non capitalist countries innovation happened, such as the USSR. Also, we can overcome human nature. When we were cave men, it was human nature to rape women to produce offspring.
>>77373343
I saw that image floating around on /v/ actually
>>77373375
>Hitler was a capitalist
>Hitler's death tolls were anywhere close to Stalin
wew
>they're starving right now, what's your point
No they aren't. Chinese workers are way better off now than they were 40 years ago.
>>77373535
>Hitler wasn't a capitalist
What the fuck man. Also, Stalin's reign was longer than Hitler's reign anyways
Also, sure, they are better off, but they still have fucking shit lives.
>>77365013
Modern day Feudalism. Created by the same old elites and aristocrats.
There is no point in wasting energy debating leftists, they will never concede that they are wrong and constantly lie to support their failed shitty ideology, they are fubdementally reality detached people.
>>77373917
Hitler was not a capitalist lad. Stalin was brutal and slaughtered millions, and the Chinese are way better off under capitalism than socialism. Thank god the CCP was smart enough to drop that commie crap after Mao died.
>>77373375
>You seem to forget that in non capitalist countries innovation happened, such as the USSR
Please use your brain a bit more and study some hard science instead of political/rethorical crap.
Innovation happened in the USSR because there was competition, a freaking Cold War. Once the competition incentives were over, their system collapsed and innovation was halted. If the entire world is communist, where does competition come from?
>Also, we can overcome human nature
Why would we do that?
Greed and laziness are extremely productive when applied correctly. You're now able to type that bs because someone was greedy enough to write better algortihms and build faster computers than their competitors, and lazy enough to find a better way to communicate than sending smoke signals.
>>77374030
>modern day feudalism
hoooooooly shit, are you wrong. Also, that quote is either taken out of context or fake.
>>77374249
In what way was Hitler not a capitalist? He banned unions and gave more rights to German corporations.
>>77374307
>competition = innovation
How about isolationist Japan?
>>77374894
>isolationist Japan
What is internal competition? It's hard to get on the Japs market from outside, not so much from the inside.
>>77365013
If command economies are good then why don't they exist?
>>77372322
>then militias to keep things in check
..and what mechanisms will prevent these militias from doing this:
"oh look these farmers aren't really doing anything wrong, but hey we are greedy so let's just steal all their harvest and let them starve!!!"
Do the militias all just keep eachother in check?
What mechanism prevents alliances of militias (presumably not allowed in theory as this would create a de facto power monopoly)?
Also, taking a 21st century economy into account, how do you deal with the massive wealth inequality of people working in finance in the city vs. people working on fields?
>>7736818 Without equal work or merit. The pilgrims nearly starved to death because they had a "community" garden. After that each were responsible for their own.
>>77375999
Yes, the militias would keep them in check.
the end goal of communism is a "stateless, classless, moneyless" society
>>77376165
I would need documentation on the very first settlers. They really acted like a monastery but with no common unification factor?
>>77376667
Militias are always nice to think about for "keeping things in order".
Please answer my questions about combating corruption of these power monopolies and de facto military governments.
>>77377187
yeah, the people would look into it amidst claims of corrupstion
>>77365013
A colony of ants.
>>77377616
>yeah, the people would look into it amidst claims of corrupstion
With what tools?
Do the people get guns?
Can they impeach a militia and disband it with a public referendum of distrust?
Also, please answer my question about the 21st century economy.
Don't cherrypick one of my statements to try and make a case, it doesn't answer the other questions.
>>77378106
>With what tools?
>Do the people get guns?
It wouldn't be libertarian if they didn't have guns. Yes, they could have guns if they wanted it.
>Can they impeach a militia and disband it with a public referendum of distrust?
Yes, of course
>Also, please answer my question about the 21st century economy.
MONEYless society. Also, i don't think there would be people working in finance, as the bourgeois who own private property would have it redistributed
>>77374894
>How about isolationist Japan?
I'll keep biting.
Japan became 'isolationist' due to the of increasing fear some sort of christian revivalism, they found that the greatest threat to their long-held peace was a Christian chapter that was gaining power and even held an uprising. Once again, like in any complex system, competition led to inner cooperation and isolation... Except it was just a loose form of isolation. They still traded with the Chinese, Korean, the DUTCH, etc.
There was also an inmense inner trade network (read: competition) that flourished along with the trade with the Dutch. This created a wealthy middle class that had an outpouring interest in the outside world. This resulted in the doctrine 'Rangaku', or 'Dutch Learning'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangaku
Far from being 'isolationist', 17th and 18th century Japan, was one of immense cultural exploration and education. Trade and competition were of inmense benefit to their society.
You really have no clue, do you?
>>77366564
>communists
>arguing real life examples of communism aren't communism
>arguing that communism would work if people just stuck to the noble intentions behind it
>people
>arguing that people wont keep doing what people did in the past to exploit communism
you are fucking retarded Pedro
>>77379153
>Yes, of course
What if the militia doesn't accept the distrust vote and installs martial law?
Is civil war really an acceptable outcome (which will happen anyway, even if everything is "peaceful")?
That same civil war will probably destroy this society and return to a regular capitalist nation with a definite power monopoly in the state.
>Also, i don't think there would be people working in finance, as the bourgeois who own private property would have it redistributed
Ah so it would be a poor agrarian society where fuck all happens?
>>77367282
""""""""""""""human nature""""""""""""""""""
>>77368285
>identity politics
>marxism
>>77365013
In two words ?
Power grab.
>>77370886
what is capitalism in the present day
>>77379570
Did I ever say I agree with Marx's intentions?
>>77379278
Mesopotamia,China, any ancient society
>>77380513
>private property being redristributed = agrarian society
Also you seem to think that the militia would be so fucking huge and powerful. It would only be banded together in times of need.
>>77365013
>(((Marxism)))
>>77365013
omg a jew cherry pics an anon comment it prolly wrote itself
the penalty for suppoting communism one way or the other is death
>>77382311
> It would only be banded together in times of need.
Wouldn't a wealth inequality of sufficient volume warrant organizing the militia?
Also yes, you seem to think that without private property, much of the tertiary sector economy would dissipate (which is true to some extent) but what about independent software developers or bankers?
>>77383313
>Wouldn't a wealth inequality of sufficient volume warrant organizing the militia?
There would be no wealth inequality in the first place
>what about independent software developers or bankers
elaborate
>>77365013
Marxism is the belief that socialism is the logical and desirable end result of capitalism. It argues that wealth is caused by exploitation, so that when the worker seizes the means of production he will no longer be exploited, and wealth will be equally shared.
>>77366564
The main point most of the infallible autists of this board make is that there hasn't ever been a successful Marxist society, while there have been successful societies of pretty much every other flavor. Give me an example where over 5000 people were able to live in an ideal Marxist society and I'll give it some now thought, but until then any Marxist/communist/socialist post gets tossed into the "doesn't work" bin.
>>77384442
>while there have been successful societies of pretty much every other flavor.
Anarcho capitalism, national socialism, paleo-conservatism, etc are loved here yet they have never been tried. Also, YPG seems pretty successful to me
>>77384046
>There would be no wealth inequality in the first place
How?
Say I bought a plot of land and then decided to go digging around and I found a really easy to access deposit of precious metals, or there's a historic treasure which museums abroad would pay lots of money for to have on display?
Do I just get fucked over for getting a little lucky?
>elaborate
I'm pretty sure you've noticed most software in the world comes from a small number of places with extremely high GDP outputs per square kilometer (see Silicon Valley in California for details).
These people are exporting domestically and internationally, literally raking in profits. How would this be balanced out?
If ambition isn't rewarded with success (and wealth) then there's no point in being ambitious. Your smartest minds will emigrate/flee your nation while you simultaneously attract only dumb people who can't manage much more than street sweeping.
>>77384907
>Say I bought a plot of land and then decided to go digging around and I found a really easy to access deposit of precious metals, or there's a historic treasure which museums abroad would pay lots of money for to have on display?
>Do I just get fucked over for getting a little lucky?
Like I said, MONEYless. Those would be just some shiny rocks to you. But still, let's say we are not at the point in which it is a moneyless society. No, you wouldn't get fucked over, unless you start buying more and more land.
The software people would keep their money too.
fuck off gooback
>>77385912
>le edgy "kill" all comunists xd
MUH MEANS OF PRODUCTION
MUH UNFAIR AND IRRATIONAL REPARTITION OF RESOURCES
WORKERS UNITE AGAINST OPRESSION
ALL SOCIETIES WILL BE GOMUNIST SOON
APARENTLY THERE ARE OTHER FORMS OF OPRESSION BESIDES ECONOMIC, THANK YOU CRITICS OF GOMMUNISM
i guess their anthems are decent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKbbnJZF6zg
>>77386348
Better dead than red nigger.
>>77386890
I'd rather be red then get fucked over by some corporations 24/7
>>77365013
Marxism is an economic warfare tactic, designed to destroy the host countries' economy via central planning, inflation, disappropriation and bureaucracy. It aims to destroy market activity, sever the ties between customers & businesses, prices & market value, work ethic, ability & life outcome. It works every time.
>>77365013
The working class seize the means of production.
Unfortunately for Marx's theory unless we turn things over to neutral robot overlords, that means "the working class" have to form some sort of group to decide how these things will be accomplished and form the new "totally still working class even though we're actually the new managerial class in a different uniform" class of marxist party members, who form the new communist state, even though Marx thought we could do this without a state, he understands economics as poorly as he understand group actions.
These card carrying marxist party members decide how much your ability is and how much your need is on a frankly arbitrary basis, and direct you where and how much to work, and how much of the profits of the labor you're entitled to.
In essence the OP image is correct. Marxism leads to a welfare state, a state which all workers' welfare is reliant upon its capricious decisions and charity, since they individually have no right to the profits of their work, only their share of the collective profits of everyone's work.*
>*To be determined by the totally omniscient and unbiased Communist State
Communism is Capitalism where there is one corporation running everything instead of a few.
>>77386890
upvoted
>>77365013
It's the childish belief that only labor is productive.
>>77365013
>muh dialectic
>muh labour theory of value
>muh means of production
Communism's basic idea that economic activity should be based on co-operation rather than competition is correct, it's just that they want to enforce co-operation from the top-down which is basically slavery.
People who say that co-operation is against human nature is wrong. Having your private property taking away from you is against human nature, but co-operating with your neighbour is extremely natural and has been practised by European societies in the past. The jewy Capitalist idea that you should work to put your neighbour out of business is morally tantamount to murder or theft, because you are depriving him of his livelihood, his means of living. Before the rise of Capitalism, it was considered extremmely immoral in Europe to put your neighbour out of business, for example, by undercutting him on prices; everything was done in guilds, where men of a certain profession (e.g. masonry, carpentry, etc.) would train each other and set market standards, i.e. co-operation rather than competition. When people say that "competition is part of human nature" - sporting competition, where you compete for honour and excellence is in human nature, but ruthless and sneaky competition where you try to destroy your neighbour to get on top is the nature of criminals and barbarians.
>>77388322
bingo
