Can some christian explain to me what "dying for your sins" means? I don't get this meme.
So Christ sacrificed himself and died for....what exactly? For some metaphysical change in the world? For a symbolic martyr?
>german not understanding christianity
Makes sense
>>77340209
yes most young germans are agnostic at best or simply don't care. I;m trying to learn.
how can he have died for my sins if I wasn't born yet
>>77340152
So that retards can hope for something while they take a dirt nap. Church gets their 10%
>>77340433
it's a metaphor; to sacrifice and to serve. To act kind on to others. For one man to die so that others may live.
>>77340152
Ask your shill friend from America, who made the exact same thread yesterday:
>>77271840
>>77340152
It means you can go to heaven if you believe in Christ. Before, you would go to heaven if you believed in God AND also worked for your salvation.
Now, you are saved by faith in God alone.
>>77340433
(Note: It's only my opinion about this)
I think it's about the relationship between you and the law.
Like, before Christ, the world was a flock of sinners; The main factor of salvation was the good/bad deeds, as you can observe in the Mosaic law (eg. Leviticus 1-6). These laws tell, that people are to be impeached for each of their sins in an eye-for-an-eye matter, or by exact sacrifices.
After the redemption, the main factor is faith, with you being able to answer for your deeds by faith, hope and love, which will turn believers the right way. (Acts 15:8-9 "8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.")
>>77341888
nice trips,
So basically, christians are forever in debt to to god for sacrificing his son or guilted in to following him because of this?
>>77340152
It's really just about altruism.
>>77340152
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_theory_of_atonement#St._Thomas_Aquinas_codifies_the_substitution_theory
>So the function of satisfaction for Aquinas is not to placate a wrathful God or in some other way remove the constraints which compel God to damn sinners. Instead, the function of satisfaction is to restore a sinner to a state of harmony with God by repairing or restoring in the sinner what sin has damaged.
More info in the link, OP.
Have a good night.
>>77340209
You don´t have to worry about sins because Jesus died for your sins.
>>77340152
Same thread as yesterday is the same.
>>77342101
>>77340152
Meanwhile, Protestants would understood it as:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution
>Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it. It states that God gave himself in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for our sin.
This is the view you'll commonly see in America and western Europe.
Again, good night.
>>77342208
>You don´t have to worry about sins because Jesus died for your sins.
This
100% what I was taught at Finnish confirmation camp
"Believe in Jesus and you will be saved"
lmao
>>77340152
God's bloodthirsty. Needs sacrifice for penance.
>>77340152
>>77340152
https://escapetoreality.org/resources/good-news/
Here you go. Freedom & Grace in Jesus :)
>>77342320
You laugh because it's contrary to all of man's thought (ie, do good, get good, be good etc). The Bible even says that people will laugh at the foolishness of what is preached. But it's simple. God makes us righteous by his perfect work, not by works of our own.
>>77342396
All wrong.
Man slaughtered, butchered, and devoured a celestial emissary and gained a portion of its wisdom. This meal changed the course of human evolution forever. So enlightened was the being that he not only tolerated their feasting, but even encouraged them to take eat and drink. By sacrificing himself to the bloodthirsty horde, changing they and their descendants from the inside, for all time, he allows mankind an opportunity to transcend the realities of our kill-or-be-killed, survival of the fittest existence.
>>77343254
Absolutely no sources whatsoever for any of that.
God is bloodthirsty, plain and simple. This is evident in the sacrifices in the temple. Then, eventually, his own son.
There's not much time left, believe on Christ get saved anon.
>>77342020
No chrost is averse to debt that he gave hos life so that you cam be saved from eternal debt. All he is asking is faith in him.
The new testament teachings completwly threw away the old law upon whoch salvation by good works sacrifices etc was based and replaced it with a faith based method of salvation.
>>77340152
Jesus Christ gave his life for the sins of mankind in the past, present and future.
He died for your sins so they can be forgiven before they happen, that's why Christians tell you that he died for your sins.
All you need to do is be a Christian and believe in God and that Jesus Christ died for your sins.
>>77343412
>This is evident in the sacrifices in the temple
God loves the smell of BBQ. Who doesn't? The whole point of burning an animal is to create a pleasing aroma. This is Biblical canon.
As far as human sacrifices, God only asks for it once, twice if you count Jesus, and the former was only a test of loyalty. Because an all knowing, omnipotent being, who created you and knew you from the time before your own conception, needs to test things. Yeah...
>>77343412
We don't sacrifice anything, Jesus Christ sacrificed himself so we don't have to, God didn't sacrifice his son.
God doesn't punish people who sin anymore because Jesus Christ died for us, people who are against Chritianity telling us that we're in some way indoctrinated and forced to follow a dogma are wrong because even if I follow none of the 10 commandments, live a promiscuous life and never go to church God would still forgive me as long as I believe in him and his son.
The heavy dogma of faith doesn't apply to us like it does to Judaism and the Muslim faith, the only thing we absolutely must obey is having faith.
>>77342020
Christ paid for your sins so you don't have to; so long as you accept the gift of grace.
Basically, you're imperfect and kind of a shitty person and therefore you deserve to go to hell and die eternally but even though that is what you deserve, it isn't what God wants to happen to you. So God is giving you a gift, a get out of jail free card by having Christ pay for your sins in your place.
Christianity is about reconciling the relationship between imperfect man and perfect God. Basically, it's not something man can solve, only something God can.
>1 post by this ID
We also had this exact same thread yesterday.
>>77343735
Kek is in charge here. Take your heresy elsewhere heathen.
>>77340152
Basically, "God" fucked up when he made you, and you are an evil bastard as a result.
But since he is the boss, it would be rude, inconsiderate, and possibly fatal to point this out.
So instead, you must beg "God" to fix his own mistake, and forgive you of your "sins".
Expect "God" to make a big deal out of this, "Anon, I had to sacrifice my 'only begotten son'(he had one good kid, and it wasn't you, get it?) for you"
>>77344735
>we don't sacrifice
Anymore. It was required of the Hebrews an (annual?) offering of their best livestock as atonement for sin. I was taught that this was an imperfect sacrifice (as it only paid for a year of sin) and it was a placeholder for Jesus, the perfect sacrifice. The sacrament then became the periodic reminder of the required sacrifice
What I never understood was why God required a blood and flesh sacrifice in the first place.
>>77345213
Genesis 8
>20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma…
Exodus 29
>5 “Take one of the rams, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on its head. 16 Slaughter it and take the blood and sprinkle it against the altar on all sides. 17 Cut the ram into pieces and wash the inner parts and the legs, putting them with the head and the other pieces. 18 Then burn the entire ram on the altar. It is a burnt offering to the LORD, a pleasing aroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire.
>>77345487
That doesn't really explain why though.
>>77345807
He likes the smell of burning animals, and demands that the deed be carried out in a specific, non barbaric for the time kind of way.
>>77345213
The whole old testament points towards the great sacrifice of Jesus Christ, that's always what it has build towards, before that there needed to be a way to demonstrate the severity and destructive nature of sinning.
Christians never said God is the sweetest man to have ever lived, many of us fear him but Christ serves as sort of a barrier for a lack of better words.
>>77346233
I never really got the impression that the sacrifices of either the animals or Jesus were symbolic. The metaphysical destruction of sin was required by God's law to allow one to pass into heaven as sin could not be tolerated by God. I guess what I'm getting at is why an omnipotent God is constrained by such laws. It's related to the philosophical problem of sin, and I don't really expect an answer.
>>77344952
kek is a false prophet and like any false prophet he will burn in hell
>>77344735
>God didn't sacrifice his son
This is the most contrarian statement to Christianity ever.
Regardless, why establish something that "works" (the beginning of creation) only to flood it?
Why, then, establish a new order of things (Moses and the law) only to "fulfill it" with the sacrifice paid on the cross?
Why have grace as your new central theme (Christianity) only to (eventually) completely wipe the slate clean again (and only for 10k years); to finally and absolutely obliterate everything and start all over, yet again (Revelations) !?
None of it makes any sense at all.
>>77344815
>Christianity is about reconciling the relationship between imperfect man and perfect God. Basically, it's not something man can solve, only something God can.
Saying I deserve to go to Hell because I was born is akin to saying that a child deserves to get cancer for being a brat.
Jesus was all about god taking walk a mile I'm my shoes literally. Instead god walked in humanities shoes for 34 aprox years. It's all about god being able to justly judge humans, jesus was god playing puppet and allowed him to experience the whole range of human emotion. Anger, joy, fear...
>>77340152
>For some metaphysical change in the world?
The idea comes from the dying god myths of old and was stolen by Christians so they could have a blood ritual of death which brings about psychological change.
Blood cults and death rituals are a form of ancestor worship associated closely with Animism.
Copy pasta thread
>>77341463
This.
It's a systematic change in the law, or the relationship between God and humanity. The way you dealt with sin before was to sacrifice and repent for each individual offense. It's not really possible to keep up that way so if you die in a state of not having repented you'd have to go to "hell" (or oblivion, or die and go to nothingness. I'm on the fence about the details of the "bad" place we go becasue of multiple interpretations of scripture and bc of Revelations being basically a dream.)
A person who literally never sinned serves as a sacrifice that's big enough to cover every since sin all of humanity could ever commit. But people aren't sinless, we can't be. So basically God got tired of us failing and not being able to go hang with him when we die but he has to follow his own rules so he found a loophole for us which was Jesus (divinely conceived so he was simultaneously fully human but fully able to not sin)
>>77347858
No. God gets to judge because he is the perfect embodiment of justice, righteousness, etc. Man cannot do what Jesus did because we are born into sin. It is literally a curse in our blood. Jesus wasn't an example of "well I can do it so you should be able to as well"
>>77340152
Jesus came down from heaven to die for our sins so we can be forgiven of our sins. In Jewish culture back when they had the temple, lambs that were unblemished were offered to the Jewish high priest and he would sacrifice the lamb so that the sins of the people were covered, not truly forgiven. Jesus Christ was seen as the lamb that was unblemished so he died for our sins.
>>77347836
Simply the act of being born is not the reason you need forgiveness for your sins. Christ was born and lived a perfect life in accordance to the law and in perfect fulfillment of the messianic prophecy so try again and think about it a little harder.
>>77342282
This is correct
"As we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", therefore none is worthy of eternal life in heaven. "The wages of sin is death".
Christ lived the perfect life and died on the cross, taking on our sin, then conquered death so we can have salvation through him
>>77340152
i'll gladly tell you, OP:
i should probably just save this as a text, since i post something like it so frequently. anyway....
Christianity - REAL, Biblical Christianity - is the antithesis and exact opposite of all the world's religions. Religion is a set of rules, beliefs, and precepts, through obedience to which one might become "good enough for God." Christianity cedes the point that fallen, sinful Man could never be "good enough" for a perfect, Holy, Just God.
Attributes of God are reflected in His creation, and our innate sense of right and wrong points to this. There is a sort of "moral economy" in the universe, meaning that sin has repercussions and consequences... sin has a price. "The wages of sin is death," etc.
Knowing that we could never be good enough to reunite ourselves with Him, God - in an act of superlative Mercy and Love - determined to do it FOR us. He condescended to Man, and put on human flesh, so that He might Himself bear the penalty for all the world's sins, and give us His Righteousness in its place. It is an exchange whereby God balances the books of the moral economy, so to speak....
In my mind, one of the great evidences of the truth of Christianity is the following: We reason that, if God exists, He must be BOTH perfectly Just AND Perfectly Merciful. But that's a conundrum.. a paradox. For if God is perfectly Just, He punishes each and every sin. And if He is perfectly Merciful, He forgives each and every sin. These appear to be mutually exclusive traits. But the REAL God actually IS both, and the means by which He reconciles the two is the cross. God remains perfectly Just, because He punishes each and every sin - and He remains perfectly Merciful, because He vicariously takes that punishment HIMSELF, and then issues permanent, perfect forgiveness to each and every soul who is willing to merely put their faith in Him. Whereas religion is all about what YOU do to be "holy," "good," etc.,....
>>77350154
(continued)
Real Christianity is all about what HE did FOR us. Again, Christianity is the exact opposite of "religion," and Jesus Christ is the Greatest anti-religionist Who ever lived. That's why He had such contempt for the "religious" folks of His day - the scribes, pharisees, etc. - and instead befriended those considered the LEAST "holy" - the tax collectors, women, prostitutes, sinners, etc.
In short, death is a wage, a payment, a consequence... Just as electricity requires a positive and negative pole, the moral economy has its opposites as well, and one follows the other just as night follows day. The whole difference between real Christianity and religion is tat real Christianity has, in my opinion, a much more honest assessment of Man's character and predicament, and it also provides an answer as to how God could possibly be BOTH perfectly Just AND perfectly merciful.
>>77340152
He had to respawn to change his loadout. Happens to the best of us.
>>77347946
this notion has been debunked a million times over. No, Christianity did NOT "borrow" from pagan religions at all.
if you would like to see an absolutely devastating point-by-point refutation of this idea, check out this video debunking the portion of "Zeitgeist," which claims the same exact thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFI6m6Icav4
he absolutely destroys that myth, and anyone who seriously researches that claim can do the same.
I am no feeble Christ, not me.
He hangs in glib delight upon his cross, above my body.
Christ forgive.... Forgive?
I vomit for you Jesu. Shit forgive.
Down now from your cross.
Down now from your papal heights,
from that churlish suicide, petulant child.
Down from those pious heights, royal flag bearer, goat, billy.
I vomit for you. Forgive? Shit he forgives!
He hangs in crucified delight nailed to the extend of his vision,
his cross, his manhood, violence, guilt, sin.
He would nail my body upon his cross,
suicide visionary, death reveller, rake, rapist, lifefucker,
Jesu, earthmover, Christus, gravedigger.
You dug the pits of Auschwitz, the soil of Treblinka is your guilt,
your sin, master, master of gore, enigma.
You carry the standard of your oppression. Enola is your gaiety.
The bodies of Hiroshima are your delight ...the nails are your only trinity,
hold them in your corpsey gracelessness, the image I have had to suffer.
The cross is the virgin body of womenhood that you defile.
You nail yourself to your own sin.
Lamearse Jesus calls me sister, there are no words for my contempt,
every woman is a cross in is filthy theology, in his arrogant delight.
He turns his back upon me in his fear, he dare not face me.
Fearfucker. Share nothing you Christ, sterile, impotent, fucklove prophet of death.
You are the ultimate pornography, in your cuntfear, cockfear, manfear, womanfear,
unfair, warfare, warfare, warfare, warfare, warfare, warfare, warfare, warfare.
Jesus died for his own sins, not mine.
>>77348137
I thought god was supposed to be all powerful? So why the fuck does he need sacrifices?
Fucking hell, reading this is like reading a shitty fanfic.
>>77350708
cool edges, bro
>>77351075
HE doesn't "require" a thing.
WE do.
see:
>>77350154
>>77350194
>>77344735
Hahahahaha, sociopathy, the post
>I want to do fun and sexy stuff
>God says no
>Well think it says it's ok because I want to do it
Your parents raised you and gave you rules. Would you say you love and honor them if you disobeyed and acted against them to fill your own needs?
There's this whole "in your heart" predicate that you should study
>>77351369
he's technically correct in the fact that "there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." he's wrong in saying that God won't discipline His Kids - He certainly WILL, and trust me, it is FAR worse than what one's earthly parents can do.
and i would agree that - well, to be charitable... his heart is not in the right place.
>>77340433
Because all human beings are inherently sinful. In the old testament, sacrifices were made to atone for sins. After God sacrificed Jesus on the cross, all of our sins have been atoned for. We only need to accept this free gift of salvation to be saved from our sinful selves.
>>77351258
blah blah god could only save people by making a human sacrifice
>>77351667
again, not exactly what i said. And to slough it off as "human" sacrifice is to completely ignore that it is God here, Who is sacrificing HIMSELF.
you need to read more carefully, and not be so flippant. as an ex-atheist, i'd encourage you to be a bit more skeptical of your own viewpoints, and a bit more willing to understand viewpoints contrary to your own.
after all, if you do not understand your opponent's arguments, then you cannot fully understand your own.
>>77351992
Why does there need to be sacrifices in the first place? He sacrificed himself to himself so he could forgive. Primitive retarded bullshit.
>>77350194
>Again, Christianity is the exact opposite of "religion," and Jesus Christ is the Greatest anti-religionist Who ever lived
please explain
>>77352275
the redemptive element of blood begins to come into the theme of scripture at the same time sin does. God made for Adam and Eve coats of skin and clothed them. the nakedness is the element of sin now exposed and needing to be covered. the covering required the death of several animals and so blood was shed.
The lesson that should be learned from Cain and Abel is that we cannot choose the means of offering to God. Cain brought before God vegetables and it was bloodless. Abel brought a blood offering from his flock. God passes judgment and Abel's was accepted while Cain's rejected. One cannot approach God by whatever means one chooses.
>>77352638
Why does god need offerings of any sort? Making offerings to a god is tribal bullshit.
>>77352275
>Why does there need to be sacrifices in the first place?
again, it is the nature of the "moral economy." just as "there is no free lunch in physics," the moral dimension of the universe works in a similar way - which is merely to say that actions have reactions, causes have effects, etc. In order to, as I said, "balance the books of the moral economy," the penalty for sin must be remitted. In order for the penalty for all the world's sins to be paid in full, what is required is a payment of infinite worth - meaning that only God could do it.
if God were to just forgive sins on a lark... just to arbitrarily "let it slide" on a lark, God would no longer be perfectly Just.
>>77352959
Is man not in the wrong here? It is man who sinned and offended God, it is God who must do the forgiving. Therefore it is not mans choice on the means of forgiveness. God has chosen the means to be blood.
>>77340152
Jesus died for the sins of Christians 2000 years ago. Modern Christians didn't die for any sins and their sins aren't null because Jesus, since Jesus didn't die for them.
Imo it goes back to the Garden of Eden and fulfilling of prophecy having to do with the big battle between God vs Satan about the fate and salvation of Creation. So it clarifies how the lines will be drawn in that battle proclaims the outcome.
>>77353133
If god was all powerful he wouldn't have needed to kill himself in order to forgive. But "oh no he has to make blood sacrifices as a payment for something that he was responsible for in the first place... for reasons!"
>>77352276
well, i thought the rest of my posts explained it fairly well, but what i mean is this: religion is a means of being "good enough for God." Real Christianity says that this is impossible, as we are fallen, sinful beings who don't even seek after God. We could NEVER be "good enough for God," and therefore God took the initiative and did all the work FOR us.
in real Christianity, to even think you have something to do with meriting your own Salvation through some good works you do or some evil works that you abstain from, is itself a sin and a slap in the face to God, Who demands that we understand we can do NOTHING - there is no good we can do, nor any evil we can abstain from - to inherit Eternal Life.
You have the choice of appearing before God on Judgment Day either counting on your own "goodness," or counting on what God Himself did FOR you. Religion is the former choice, and Christianity is the latter. The former leads to pride, self-righteousness, haughtiness, etc., and the latter leads to humility and an incredible Love for a God of the universe Whom you can call "Abba" - "Daddy."
>>77353273
So basically "It doesn't make need to make sense because he's god"
lol
>>77348837
There's really nothing to think about.
I'm not of some celestially pure birthright. Therefore, I am inherently flawed.
I need some sort of sacrificial rite to ensure my simple act of faith can save me from the same destiny that Satan himself has, but that requirement was put forth by the same being that makes an illogical leap of faith to require the sacrifice/sacrament to begin with.
The entire process embraces the ideology of vicarious redemption, whereas, all I need to do is "believe" and I'll be just fine.
It doesn't fix anything.
It doesn't explain anything.
It simply doesn't make sense.
>>77353528
if God just simply "forgave" sins on a lark and without some cot or penalty, He would be inconsistent and transgressing His Own attribute of perfect Justice. He would no longer be God.
>>77353296
>Jesus died for the sins of Christians 2000 years ago. Modern Christians didn't die for any sins and their sins aren't null because Jesus, since Jesus didn't die for them.
what makes you think this is true?
please understand that God exists outside of, and indeed created, time.
>>77353856
>cot
i meant "cost," obviously.
>>77340152
Basically the Romans nailed a jew and he was talkin shit the whole time. So "died for our sins" means translated to "you fuckers did this to me." But being jewish he was afraid to say it that way.
>>77353856
Shouldn't he, oh you know, judge people based on their character? Not on blood sacrifices? OH NO HUMANS ARE NATURALLY IMPERFECT THE ONLY WAY TO POSSIBLY FORGIVE THIS IS TO KILL SOME SHEEP. OH NVM GOD KILLED HIMSELF SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT ANYMORE It's fucking stupid. What kind of sense of justice is that? Killing things because he made his creation imperfect?
>>77353634
It would make sense if you assumed that you needed an atonement for your sins but you seem be too proud to admit that
>>77354336
Yeah, let's kill things because of someone else's imperfections! Fucking retard.
>>77353626
It doesn't matter how well you explain or clarify your position, this troll keeps spitting the same non-argument. Kudos to you for trying, but I think this has become nothing more than casting pearls before swine.
>>77354521
>Someone else's imperfections
Looks like i was right
>>77354609
>>77354624
You literally just keep spouting the same bullshit.
"God needs blood sacrifices because you sinned"
BUT WHY
It's fucking retarded. Killing something doesn't "save" or "free" anyone from anything.
>>77340152
He took the punishment for you all being godless heathens.
>>77354224
>Shouldn't he, oh you know, judge people based on their character?
if He did that, each and every one of us would be separated from Him for all eternity. To say otherwise is to have either a very unwarranted and haughty opinion of Man, or a very low opinion of God. The inconguencies between the two are stark.
and He didn't "make His creation imperfect," any more than He causes you or I to sin.
it's amazing to think that God is willing to let sinful, fallen Man kill His Son in one of the most barbaric methods imaginable so that He might redeem those same men, and yet some will accuse HIM of wrongdoing.
simply amazing, isn't it?
if you would like God to judge you based on your own character, go right ahead - but i can tell you right now, you have no idea of what you're asking, and you have not the foggiest notion of either how Perfectly GOOD He is, or how corrupt and sinful WE are.
...and yet, He makes this offer to us.
>>77354779
Just curious what in your mind would be proper atonement for the sins of mankind or is there nothing to be atoned for
>>77354609
i understand.
but it's my job :)
>>77354521
>Yeah, let's kill things
you're still not getting exactly what happened on that cross, huh?
or, perhaps the idea of SELF-sacrifice is so alien to you that it's impossible to grasp?
>>77340433
God exists outside of time. He knows all things past present and future.
>>77354926
Holy fuck you're a brainwashed piece of shit. It's like reading some fanfic on Tumblr. Blah blah blah you're an unworthy piece of shit who deserves to spend an eternity in hell but god killed himself just so you don't have to
>>77355200
Yeah, he killed himself. Fucking retard. "He killed himself so we don't have to kill innocent animals anymore!"
>>77340152
sacrifice offering was a big thing back in the day. Use to be that Jews had to slaughter animals and offer up burnt offerings to god ALL THE FUCKING TIME, because since we inherited sin from Adam, we fuck up all the time and need to atone through ritual sacrifice.
Understandably, that got a bit annoying, so when the messiah came along and was sacrificed, the fact that he was a 'perfect man' meant that sacrificing him would mean complete and total atonement for adam's (another perfect man's) sin.
So now we dont have to kill a sheep every other day. We can just pray when we fuck up or talk to a dude about our issues to feel better about it.
if you believe such things.
>>77354926
Stop capitalizing things that don't need to be capitalized.
>>77355366
i'm sure plenty of us can read your posts and see that you're a soul who is absolutely dripping with hate and anger... and yet, you ask:
>"Shouldn't he, oh you know, judge people based on their character?"
let me know how that works out for you.
>>77355558
Okay, I'm a bad person so I should sacrifice something in the name of god. Oh nevermind, god already killed himself so I don't have to worry. I can do whatever the fuck I want because as long as I accept that god killed himself for me, I'm free to go!
>>77355526
i don't think that my capitalization of attributes of God are the major point of discussion, here.
i'll say it again, and without ANY sense of self-righteousness or "holier-than-thou" attitude:
you need His Grace. He offers forgiveness freely. Just trust in His Son Jesus Christ.
>>77355768
>I can do whatever the fuck I want because as long as I accept that god killed himself for me, I'm free to go!
it's said coarsely and flippantly - and certainly insincerely - but yes, you've actually got the gist of it.
now, if you actually understood what He did and what it cost Him, and how much He must Love someone so unworthy of it, the next question would be: "what exactly is it that i now *want* to do?"
>>77356019
This is the main problem I have with Christianity. You're judged not based on your character, but whether or not you decide to worship god. That's pretty narcissistic of him.
>>77355768
That won't work unless there is a genuine desire to accept God and you regret your sins. If you treat the salvation as a get-out-of-jail-free card, God's not gonna give a shit.
>>77356019
>>77356202
This is where we disagree.
>Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
It's because people back then believed in appeasing god with blood sacrifice
But nowadays Christians are too embarrassed to say they believe in such tripe as blood sacrifice so the story no longer makes any sense
>god arranges to have himself sacrificed to appease himself and pay off the debt to himself with his own life
Wew lad what the fuck is going on here
But yeh the short answer is that it is complete nonsense
>>77340152
retard
he died for all humans that god himself will forgive him theire sins
so they can die and get in heaven
drecks kanacke
>>77356202
>but whether or not you decide to worship god.
technically, no. this is incorrect.
You are judged either by your own deeds (as an unbeliever), or, as a believer, you are judged according to what HE did FOR you.
If you honestly think that a Perfectly Holy and Just God should judge people based on their own "merits," then you do not understand the concept of Perfection, or how far from it we are. Absolutely NO ONE would escape eternal separation from Him.
and so, God did everything FOR US, and suffered and died at our hands, willingly.
...and yet, you somehow call this "narcissistic."
there's a saying i always go by - an axiom - and it goes like this:
"those who try to make you feel guilty, are the ones who have the most to feel guilty about - and it's usually the very thing they accuse you of."
i have found this to be consistently true.
>>77356407
why didn't you finish the verse? you will find it is perfectly consistent with what i am saying, and contradicts your own position:
>21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
>22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful WORKS?
>23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
so we see that these people, whom Jesus says He NEVER knew, and attempting to justify themselves before God on the basis of THEIR OWN WORKS. This is something that no real Christian would ever even think of doing.
Jesus also says, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
so then, we must ask: "What is the will of the Father?"
Jesus tells us:
>And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40
is this verse becoming a bit more clear to you?
>>77347858
>God playing puppet
That's a horrible misunderstanding of the Trinity. The father is not the son is not the holy spirit, but all are God. Three persons, one being.
>>77340152
Basically everyone was born with the original sin. People would sacrifice lambs to appease
God. Jesus then was sacrificed like a lamb to wipe out the original sin from everyone.
>>77356785
He literally made humans so he could have people to worship him, and those that don't are punished. That's narcissistic. Oh wow, he killed himself! Such a great sacrifice. Surely no human has ever sacrificed themselves for another person before!
>>77356202
The problem with that is character can be shaped and influenced, which if you're a regular /pol/ user you would agree with. So someone who controls mass media would be able to steal the good character of people who would have received a 'passing grade' for morality.
>>77357181
why didnt you give context to the verses previous to 7:21
> 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
>18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
> 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Faith alone is not enough
>22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
and good works alone is not enough. you need both. No one so bereft of genuine faith could possibly produce true good works. (a good tree cannot bear bad fruit)
>>77357742
>why didnt you give context to the verses previous to 7:21
lol, we can do this all day...
because now it is YOU who fail to provide the context.
He is talking about false prophets, here. see verse 15:
>15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
if you would like a good presentation of my point of view on these verses, see this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOnwIQtQLgs
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzTnQPWNIdU
i think those will be very well worth your while, Brother.
if you believe that your own works have anything whatsoever to do with your own Salvation, you are misunderstanding Scripture, and are far, far from Grace. Just as Paul tells us that if we mix just a *teesy weensy* little bit of works with Grace, then Grace is no longer Grace. See the entire book of Galatians, which i will not paste here :)
Do not confuse root and fruit - Salvation and service
>>77357484
>He literally made humans so he could have people to worship him, and those that don't are punished.
not true. He did not create Mankind out of some need to be loved - as if He were lacking in anything.
in the Christian concept of God, God IS Love (1 John4:8). Even before anything was created, there was Love between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He did not create us because He has need of love or anything else.
> Oh wow, he killed himself! Such a great sacrifice. Surely no human has ever sacrificed themselves for another person before!
well, then... how come you aren't doing the same?
>>77358507
I think it is you who are misunderstanding the scripture. If scripture can be interpreted plainly there is no need for further interpretation. This scripture plainly says that both faith and works are needed for salvation. Good works bear only from good faith. Likewise faith that says but does not do is really unbelief.
How can you say i've made that proposition that it is only my good works which merit salvation. I can say you believe it is simply good enough to believe without the works because you said so yourself
>I can do whatever the fuck I want because as long as I accept that god killed himself for me, I'm free to go!
>it's said coarsely and flippantly - and certainly insincerely - but yes, you've actually got the gist of it.
that is the beginning of it but certainly not the gist of it. not it is not simply good enough because how can good tree bear bad fruits.
>>77340152
You have a child.
You raise that child.
They grow up and move out.
They get involved in a gang and drugs.
You get shot saving your child from that life.
>>You could have not even had a child (no creation)
>>You could have never allowed the child to move out (no free will)
>>You could have let the child die (no sacrifice on the cross)
>>The child could go back to that life (throw away the sacrifice on the cross)
>>77340943
This. Mods pls.
>>77340826
But he didn't die. Everyone else dies. Jesus dying and being guaranteed a place in heaven is like someone giving away all their stuff but having insurance cover it a hundered times over. What is so brave and special about that?
>>77359792
>This scripture plainly says that both faith and works are needed for salvation.
ok, now show some Scripture that says this - that says we need BOTH faith AND works. Like "Wheel of Fortune," i will throw you the R S T L N E in the form of James, chapter 2, and we can go over that one later. name some Scripture that says we need faith AND works for Salvation.
you need to understand: Christianity and faith in Jesus is NOT "religion." The world has plenty of religions that teach that one must do such and thus in order to merit Salvation or God's favor. Faith is Christ, on the contrary, yields Salvation by Faith ALONE. The works follow later. An unregenerate man cannot do ANYTHING truly good before God's sight - so how can this be a necessary part of becoming Saved?
I will give you some Scriptures that show we are Saved by Faith alone:
>"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one." (Romans 3:28-30)
>"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Romans 4:5)
>"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith." (Romans 9:30)
>"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;" (Romans 10:9)
>"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16)
>>77340152
Jesus needed to sacrifice himself to himself so he could be persuaded into letting us into heaven. What's so hard to understand?
>>77359792
>it is not simply good enough because how can good tree bear bad fruits.
also:
are YOU a good tree, or a bad tree?
OR, rather, is Jesus the ONLY good tree, and He is comparing Himself to the false prophets (see verse 15 again)?
>>77361453
idk if Jesus was the only good tree then how did paul cast out demons?? are you saying Paul was a false prophet
>Acts 16:18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.
> Matthew 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
You're digging yourself into a hole here buddy
>>77345149
what a dick
>>77360852
>>77340152
Sin is debt, debt is paid to balance the books.
>>77361453
your twisting scripture that is plainly understood with your new age bullshit about the goodness of being a once every Sunday believer
>>77355358
>and future
He knows our choices and the fate of atoms in this world. What is then the purpose of this process of living if he knows who is naughty and nice?
>>77362020
>idk if Jesus was the only good tree then how did paul cast out demons?? are you saying Paul was a false prophet
WHAT??? lol Talk about jumping to a conclusion!
where exactly is Paul referred to as a "tree," either in that verse or elsewhere?
also, I will show you that Paul would NEVER have called himself a "good" ANYTHING - tree or otherwise. After all:
>"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."
-Luke 18:19 (and notice that Jesus is NOT saying here that He is not good; He is trying to demonstrate through a simple syllogism that He IS God.)
anyway, back to Paul, who says:
>"18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Romans 7:18)
as for the Matthew 7 verses, again, PLEASE READ THEM IN FULL. What do those whom Jesus claimed to have NEVER known try to invoke in order to demonstrate their worthiness? THEIR OWN WORKS! Again, no real Christian would ever DARE to say such a thing. Instead, a real Christian would have appealed to "the will of the Father," as Jesus makes mention of. And THAT is simply to "believe on the One Whom He sent" (John 6:40)
>>77362323
"New Age" LOL! you have no idea of what i believe, or what Scripture says.
...and my Faith in Jesus is all through the week :)
if you think you've merited forgiveness by your own good deeds, let me know how that goes for you.
....you're gonna have to scream pretty loud for me to hear you from where you'll be, though.
>>77362815
Before we start jumping around to other scripture lets examine Paul casting out this demon. Paul cast this demon out in Jesus's name. Therefore we must assume that this was a good work. Good fruit comes only from a good tree. Therefore if we believe your assumption that Jesus is and can be the only good tree, this would mean Paul was actually a bad tree. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. What a conundrum. We either have to admit Paul was a false prophet or you're making your own interpretations of scripture to fit your beliefs.
>>77363573
>Therefore we must assume that this was a good work.
OK, absolutely no problem with that.
>Good fruit comes only from a good tree. Therefore if we believe your assumption that Jesus is and can be the only good tree, this would mean Paul was actually a bad tree.
No, you are confused because you evidently don't understand the dual nature of Man. We, ourselves have nothing good in us - EXCEPT that the Holy Spirit, at the point at which we believed, comes to take up residence inside us as a "seal guaranteeing Everlasting Life." We from then on have the option of walking in the Spirit, or in the flesh - but this does NOT determine Salvation; it determines REWARD.
If you would like to see where this is further expounded on, read Romans 7 and 1 John 3.
>>77363967
So is Jesus the only good tree?
>>77364315
Yes. And ANY real good that we do are the "good works, prepared in advance that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:10). They are the result of allowing the Spirit to work THROUGH us, and for these good works we are rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ. But that is something very different from Salvation or damnation. In fact, a large majority of the heresies and confusions come from not understanding and differentiating verses about SALVATION and SERVICE - about ROOT and FRUIT.
>>77340152
After Eve sinned and then induced Adam to sin (sin translates as a missing of the mark) God explained the consequences of this choice for them and their descendants .
God's Law decalres the soul which sins shall die.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission (forgiveness) of sin.
This means either the blood of the sinner or an acaptable substitute.
The only acceptable substitute is one without sin.
Since all man inherited the original sin from the first pair there can come no acceptable substitute from among them so all are condemned to eternal death ( everlasting separation from God).
John 3:16 says;" For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever should believe on Him will have everlasting life"
Jesus is God incarnate who out of love for mankind came into the world, lived a sinless life as a man and became our substitute being acceptable unto his own law and therefore fulfilling it delivers all who by faith come to Him and accept his atoning sacrifice
>>77364821
But how does this explain the fact that Jesus says many will say they know him but He never knew them? Who could he be talking about here other than people who say they're Christian yet do not live the Christian life
>>77364837
well-done, His good and faithful servant :)
but, if i may elaborate on the first part, about Adam's sin following Eve's...
Adam knew how badly Eve messed things up, and yet, out of his love for Eve he chose to follow her and eat of the fruit himself.
In a similar manner, Jesus, on His Own volition, decided to join Mankind is his predicament, so that by doing so He might redeem us from it. This is one of the reasons that Jesus is referred to as the "second Adam."
God Loves us so much that He would condescend to us, and walk alongside us in this fallen, sinful world.
>>77365998
>But how does this explain the fact that Jesus says many will say they know him but He never knew them?
again, let's read the text:
>Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
so, we see that Salvation is NOT a matter of claiming Jesus is Lord. It is a matter "doing the will of the Father." So, where does Jesus tell us what the will of the Father is? Look at John 6:40, where He says it very plainly:
>"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)
So, the will of the Father is that we BELIEVE on Jesus.
Well, then why are the ones in Matthew 7 condemned? I mean, surely they must have "believed on the One Whom He sent," right? After all, they call Jesus "Lord."
well, NO, and Jesus is very clear on WHY they are condemned. Listen to their reply, paying attention to what they appeal to:
>Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have WE not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful WORKS?
These people believed that they would be accepted because of what THEY did! They appeal to their OWN WORKS! Absolutely no real Christian would ever dare say such a thing!!! And then, Listen to what Jesus says to them; He is very plain that He NEVER knew them, not that He knew them at one time but they messed up, fell away, etc., but that He NEVER knew them. They never understood what Salvation was all about. They never understood that they can't possibly merit Salvation, and that it is completely and totally a gift from God, through belief in His Son (the "will of the Father"):
>And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Do you understand?
>>77366427
rather a romantic spin ... Jesus didn't partake of our sin he assumed our guilt for it... Adam partook of the sin whether he did so out of a sense of loyalty or love is one for his to answer and I honestly find it a Hollywood tragedy tier notion.
Adam was still Innocent when Eve urged him to eat the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and evil.. He had no consciousness of evil which is what was driving Eve..
Having already eaten she was acting at the instigation of the Serpent .
Adam was utterly incapable of knowing the nature of the motivation of the woman acting under the deceivers lie whose motivation was the destruction of Gods perfection.
Adam was the original Dindu.
>>77367672
>rather a romantic spin ...
perhaps you can call it that. We are the "Bride of Christ," just as Eve was the bride of Adam. Also, bear in mind what Paul says about marriage and death - that, once a spouse dies, the surviving spouse is freed from the law of marriage. In like manner, we are joined to Jesus, in a similar way that "the two shall become one flesh," and Jesus, having died for us, freed us from the "law of sin," just as we have likewise died with Him.
>Jesus didn't partake of our sin he assumed our guilt for it.
oh absolutely! I would never want to seem to mean that He partook of sin. But the point here is the joining in the predicament; for Adam, this meant the partaking of the fruit. For Jesus, it meant coming down from Heaven and joining us here in this fallen world.
>dam was still Innocent when Eve urged him to eat the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and evil.. He had no consciousness of evil which is what was driving Eve
I am honestly not very clear on what point you're trying to make here. I do not think these apply to Jesus, since He, being God, has knowledge of good and evil already.
>Having already eaten she was acting at the instigation of the Serpent .
Again, not clear on what you're trying to say here. She had already acted at the instigation of the serpent - just as we regularly do.
>Adam was utterly incapable of knowing the nature of the motivation of the woman acting under the deceivers lie whose motivation was the destruction of Gods perfection.
I'm not so sure that this is the case. It says that she saw that it was good for food, desirable to make one wise, etc, and all this before she ate of it. I see no reason why Adam could not have thought likewise.
And i want to be VERY clear that this is just all hypothesis on my part - although many other, better known and studied Christians share this point of view. I certainly wouldn't be making a doctrine out of it.
>>77340152
It means basically
>he was a good goy and take him as role model
>>77340433
Is your ancestral sin that you abolish when you are baptized. Read the book of genesis ( i think this how is called in english). As I see it, humans are inherently sinful and you have to follow the dogma of Christ in order to become pure and not fully led by your vicious nature. This way you get illuminated and can transcend into heaven.
>>77368680
King of the Juden
King of the Juden
King of the Juden
King of the Juden
>>77368684
Lol so I get blamed for something I didn't do that happened before I was born? do I have to pay reparations to god now too?
>>77368923
>do I have to pay reparations to god now too?
Nope.
God paid the full price FOR you, Himself.
You merely have to BELIEVE on the One He sent.
>>77350154
> believing in all that gibberish
you words literally have no meaning
>>77368923
Literally? Yes. If the original sin wouldn't have been committed your existence wouldn't be possible.
So you must repent and humbly ask for forgiveness and passage in heaven.
>between you and me it's more of a way to keep society decent and working effective. About people having a purpose and to renounce your body's mortal/flesh instincts in order to be civilized (there is a reason why white Christians ruled the word) ...... but don't tell god that I said that.
>>77369512
thatsjustyouropinionman.tiff
>>77369667
Yahh he is right.
>>77369087
But unless you are baptized, you will burn in hell because you did not live into Christ. Even tho you might have been a decent man.
>>77369858
>But unless you are baptized, you will burn in hell because you did not live into Christ. Even tho you might have been a decent man.
the Bible nowhere teaches such a thing. The Roman church teaches that - not Scripture.
They also teach things like "indulgences," "treasury of merit," "papal infallibility," and a whole host of other assorted nonsense.
Salvation, Biblically speaking, is by Grace alone through faith in Jesus, and baptism is something we do to publicly demonstrate our faith in and identifying with Jesus.
>>77370248
I reckon you are a protestant. I know that the church of god is not on Earth but in the Heaven, but how do you preach the word of god without the institutional authority of the church.
>he copied and pasted my thread
I wasn't being ironic, I genuinely wanted to hear Christians explain their theology.
>>77340152
in few words, jesus died for our sin means that he with his death free us from the original sin of adam and eve, and when a human being is birthed means that he is not born in sin, and that prevented you to have a piece of your dick cutted off.
Orthodoxy:
We f**ed up in the Garden of Eden, becoming self-aware too soon (we needed to exist in the presence of God for much longer before ready to eat from the Tree of Knowledge)
God threw us out, not because He was angry but to prevent us to to f**k up even more (becoming immortal in that state of separation from God)
At that point it is good that we're dying because otherwise we would suffer forever.
Jesus comes and says, I can save them. He dies on the Cross defeating Death by death.
We are immortal now, we will live forever. Christ has shown us what to do and how to re-orient our thinking to make sure when we come to live forever in the presence of God it will not be suffering but endless joy.
Basically it differs from Catholicism because in Orthodoxy God is forgiving and loving and always trying again and again to save his creation and he's not angry, punishing or demanding sacrifice.
>>77340152
Briefly:
opened gates of heaven so sins can be forgiven
Heaven is a realm free from sin, thus we can be forgiven and freed from our sins in the afterlife.
>>77343412
Hello edge lord
>>77340152
it's nothing
just semitic psychobabble
>>77373475
in the beginning God created... everything. So who put the snake in the garden?
>>77373974
Well one reason why Orthodox scholars are not very respected in Catholic circles is because they do not dwell on issues like this.
Same goes with other conundrums of this type, like was it literal 7 days, was it Sun days, some other star, was it all just an allegory?
Orthodox scholars will never ever come to conclusions if they are not already clear or made clear by some of the Holy Fathers.
They hold position that we are humans, small, and cannot possibly rise to explain the full nature of God, and we can only preserve the bits and pieces as good as we can.
For Orthodox faithful such questions are seen as Devil's main tool that serve to distract us from our goal of reaching the presence of God, by sending us on endless, unsolvable intellectual pursuits of our own tail.
>>77371088
>I reckon you are a protestant.
Only in the sense that I'm not a Roman Catholic. Otherwise, I have no use for the term. I believe on Jesus Christ as the One and Only Son of God, and I believe that the Bible is the Word of God.
> I know that the church of god is not on Earth but in the Heaven, but how do you preach the word of god without the institutional authority of the church.
My "authority" for preaching the Good News of Salvation as a free gift of God, by Grace, through Faith is the fact that this is precisely what Jesus Himself told me and every other believer to go do.
>>77355082
there's no reason for a rule that says sins need atonement, when the rules are made by an omnipotent being.
>>77375969
>there's no reason for a rule that says sins need atonement, when the rules are made by an omnipotent being.
The obvious fact is, that which is not consonant with God's nature is destined to be forever separated from Him. In order for God to remain consistent with His Own nature, He must - as i said earlier above - "balance the books of the moral universe," so to speak. God cannot simply "forgive" sins on a lark, as that would be arbitrary, capricious, and completely lacking Perfect Justice in any sense of the term.
again: just as there "is no free lunch" in God's physical universe, there is none in His moral universe, either. All things have a cost. It is a simple matter of balance - "yin and yang," if you'll forgive the term.
>>77375035
I'm not questioning the truth, but I wonder how much of the Devil's hands are in the new testament.
>>77340152
>Can some christian explain to me what "dying for your sins" means?
Means he's the devil and he makes up sins and he somehow has this crazy notion that lying about the reality of Satan being the actual name of God, somehow people will never find out as if Satan was going to stay put.
But you know this already.
>>77372052
yea i was bored lol
good thread
Ask a cat.
They have all the answers.
>>77362750
This world is the creation process for souls, if heaven is perfect and perfect I'd unchanging, then we cannot enter heaven. Rather, we are being created along with it currently. All of space time is happening within a blink if God's eye.
>>77340152
Before the time of Christ lamb were sacrificed to God for the forgiveness of sin. Sin is a debt to God and someone had to be punished in order for it to be forgiven, so animals experienced the "punishment" in the form of sacrifice.
God then decided to send Jesus Christ the "Lamb of God", a perfect being with no sin. Christ, like the animal, has no sin and is completely innocent. So to pay for all of mankind's sins Jesus will die, like the lamb, to pay for the sins. This time since nothing is more innocent and great than the incarnation of God Himself there is no further need of animal sacrifices.
>>77377610
>I'm not questioning the truth, but I wonder how much of the Devil's hands are in the new testament.
Well we think that the Bible is Holy, written by human author inspired, filled with the Holy Spirit, so we might not interpret it well, but it shouldn't contain falsehoods (personally I'm not very adamant about this position, not falsehoods but certainly there are large parts of not very useful unclear text)
Here's a lady explaining it really well in English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GHE6oqCc_U
Reminder that someone who professes faith yet doesn't follow Jesus teachings and example to the best of his ability is a hypocrite.
Have faith in your Lord and live as he commands.
>>77378273
