Serious question: What exactly is so bad about social democracy?
What's wrong with creating a society in which everyone has their basic needs covered like a house, health care, transportation, food and water and then they can work harder and move up in the world to get better stuff?
I'm not saying Capitalism should be done away with, I like the fact that competition and greed can get your better things, I think it's good and a natural part of human nature to be competitive and want to experience the best life has to offer.
But it pains me to see people suffering so much in this world. Is people everywhere starving and homeless really worth putting an extra couple of dollars in my pocket? I don't think so, do you? And I don't believe in charities, they obviously don't work we see that all over, especially in Africa. You need a system.
Personally I'd be happy to sacrifice some of what I make to help my fellow countrymen out and make sure they're safe and healthy. I think the world would be a much better and less violent place if people didn't have to worry about where their next meal came from.
What do you guys think? I want your real opinion, no memes please.
>>74804485
Worthless people should starve to death
>>74804485
>And I don't believe in charities, they obviously don't work we see that all over, especially in Africa. You need a system.
>Charities don't work
>We should impose yet another European system on these people
You know what used to work? Their shit eating, spear chucking, crocodile eating ways.
Who pays for it?
In the real world everyone doesn't magically want to work or contribute. The leeches take more than is produced and it is thus unsustainable.
>>74804485
>But it pains me to see people suffering so much in this world. Is people everywhere starving and homeless really worth putting an extra couple of dollars in my pocket?
paying for someone elses fuck ups is socialism (communism) in a nutshell
>>74804684
Not trying to bait. People who make a lot of money would pay for it. I've done a lot of research, paying for a healthcare system and things like that really wouldn't make that huge a dent in the income of the very rich.
>>74804718
Some people are born into suffering tho, I don't think that's fair, they didn't even do anything yet!
And even though they can move ahead, not everyone just fucks up tho, it's not that simple, some people get a disability, some people are discriminated against, sometimes someone just has a bad day and screws up their job interview when they'd do just fine any other day!
>>74805547
Taking up the incomes of all of the rich would not pay one year of the US' 1t yearly bill.
>>74805547
>that's fair
your issue is with god then, theyre being punished for the sins of their fathers and fore fathers
>>74804485
It requires a massive turnover of power and resources to a government and due to the fallibility of humans, those in the government use that power to feed off the people and use the power and resources to line their own pockets.
And the suppression tactics make the economy fragile and inflexible because people have no power to let the market decide.
Then follows economic collapse. Start reading up on all of your socialist paradises.
>>74804485
Kyle Kulinski go to bed
>>74805744
Okay, you have to forgive me, I am young and uneducated. What trillion dollar yearly bill are you talking about?
You could tax people who make $1 million dollars a year at just 5.4% and you'd be paying for universal healthcare in no time. $1 million a year is huge. 5.4% is really small, it's a fraction of what they make.
>>74805990
Did you even read my post? I'm not talking about a "socialist paradise" I'm talking about making sure everybody's basic needs are covered while allowing there to be a competitive market.
About the corruption, well that's the democracy part. You have checks and balances. It's weird that you trust the current governments we have now to protect the free market but you don't trust future social democratic governments to protect the interests of the people.
>>74804485
Charities exist, just use those. They're built by individuals who are actually driven and motivated to help their fellow man, as compared to government workers who are there to draw a paycheck and then clock out the second their shift is over.
>>74806510
You are asking way too high of a question in here tbqh
As for why a social democracy isn't good, just look at my country
We became a state dependent state in a span of a hundred years thanks to social democracy, and we are completely stagnant, while countries such as Singapore and South Korea grow
>>74804485
Fuck your social democracy bullshit. You want concentration of power in the hands of stupid people then thats how you go about it. Increase personal responsibility on citizens to take care of shit. What we need is a culture change and not a bullshit form of governance. You don't believe in charities well Fuck you OP, you a bitch ass nigga.
>>74804684
> Who pays for it?
Taxes.
The state actually can do much of this more efficiently than random volunteers and family members that take care of their sick and poor.
Besides, the state can make more reasonable decisions with regards to paying for costly cures and whatever else is required to get people back working, and reaps a lot of the benefit of doing so (more taxes, less social assistance).
>>74806963
No. No they can't. I can tell you from watching my government put weapons into the hands of terrorists they cannot.
>>74806963
>The state actually can do much of this more efficiently than random volunteers and family members that take care of their sick and poor.
>>74806719
OKay, so your country has stagnated, but what about other countries? Austria has a ton of social programs and their economy is doing quite well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Austria
Again, I think that a total state takeover of the economy would be bad, and it's bad to get rid of market economics because competition is good. BUT I think it would be a better world if we had systems and programs that took care of people.
Think about it most violent crimes and thefts are committed by poor people. Why? Because they're worried about putting food on the table. They become desperate just to stay alive so they resort to stealing or dealing drugs just to make ends meet.
>>74806719
As for why social democracy is good, look at my country.
We became wealthier as people actually stopped to have to worry about putting a lot of money back (never mind failing to do so) to pay potentially ruinous medical bills.
Besides, that is actually part of what you want in your life. Being healthy.
Apart from that, social democrats is why we no longer have ~12h work days for employees, can't get fired anymore over brief illnesses, and a lot of other things that make sense.
>>74807212
Exactly my point. When you take care of people, they can be more productive. It takes stress out of their lives to know that they'll be safe, so they can be more productive.
>>74804485
The idea of everyone working for the greater good and to support one another sounds great, until the latent cynic in you remembers that not everyone will pull thier own weight. People will grow lazy because of the fact regardless of how hard they work, they will be taken care of.
Adding to this, you will have others who are unable to contribute to society trying to jump on the bandwagon, immigrants, r9k to name a few. One would say that we could cut them off of social programs, but lets be serious, if you are touchy feely enough to want social programs you are altruistic to a fault.
>>74807148
Austria has some pretty big banks, Uruguay has... well, cows.
>>74807212
>look at switzerland
Oh that's cute, well you dipshit, José Battle y Ordoñez the cuck who engendered the Modern Uruguayan State looked at the Swiss as his model of governance
And a hundred years later look at what it got us, fucking nowhere, my country is a mess like fucking Jeb Bush after he got ran over
Yeah, sure, its one of the two leading South American countries, the other being Chile, but its a stagnant big fucking mess
>>74807212
Your GDP peaked from 1996 to 2000 and hasn't reached that point yet. Our GDP has only grown for the last 20 years. What are you talking about, Switzerland?
>>74806510
And we have the worst form of government except for all the others. You're thinking in terms of a utopian vision. Grow up, kid.
>>74807305
That's a fair argument for communism, but what about just giving people the basics?
Giving someone a cheap government house isn't going to make them not want a mansion.
>>74807294
Please drop the stress meme. That's a construct of the mind.
>>74807148
>most violent crimes and theft are because poor people are starving
Thats a whole lot of implying son, as a man who has lived in the ghetto(majority white) ive never been robbed by a homeless person, who im sure was hungry. But I have been robbed by thugs, but surely they must be hungry because they spent money on thier clothes and car.
>>74807415
>Austria has some pretty big banks, Uruguay has... well, cows.
True lol, but it's strange that you used banks as an example. Anyone anywhere could make a system that holds and moves around money.
>>74807520
Look, it's simple dollars and cents. Does individual A contribute more to the market than he uses from the market? If yes, he doesn't need government housing. If no, then you have to take from someone else to cover the deficit. It's just not sustainable, anon.
>>74806252
The problem with taxing the rich is that the rich provide the jobs. When the rich are taxed, they go somewhere else where they aren't taxed. That means the jobs go away too.
>>74807052
I don't think they should do that either. Doesn't mean you want to have private firefighters. Or private social security or private streets. It's just less efficient.
>>74807114
But they can.
>>74807294
I think it's perhaps more about covering risks & assisting with recovery from basically all (financial / health / ...) mistakes and failures.
It's not like the state can't put on some pressure that people cooperate with what is required - be it pushing them to see a psychiatrist and psychologist or just basically forcing people who receive assistance into detailed accountability for their expenses and job-seeking. (Both of which arguably could be stressful - but it is no question that it costs the state some to provide this "service", wanted or not).
>>74807520
What do you consider the basics?
Food and water?
Medcare, assistance, housing?
>>74804485
>But it pains me to see people suffering so much in this world. Is people everywhere starving and homeless really worth putting an extra couple of dollars in my pocket? I don't think so, do you? And I don't believe in charities, they obviously don't work we see that all over, especially in Africa. You need a system.
Don't let your actions be ruled by emotions. Your desire for the world to be a happy place doesn't make it so.
>Personally I'd be happy to sacrifice some of what I make to help my fellow countrymen out and make sure they're safe and healthy. I think the world would be a much better and less violent place if people didn't have to worry about where their next meal came from.
So give your own money then. Don't force other people to give theirs. Especially for such a hopeless cause.
>>74804485
It never works that way. There's ALWAYS someone wanting power.
>What exactly is so bad about social democracy?
The problem is the lack of motivation. Why get a job when you can be comfortably housed and fed for free?
>And I don't believe in charities
I'd say that depends on the charity. Do some research before you donate. And do you really think the government could do a better job? We tried to build a veterans hospital that should've cost us $328 million, and it ended up costing $1.7 billion. Governments, especially the US government, are the pinnacle of inefficiency.
source: http://www.npr.org/2015/06/09/413178870/the-unfinished-va-hospital-thats-more-than-1-billion-over-budget
>>74807785
I disagree. The rich are here right now even though they know that their tax dollars are spent on F15s that aren't even used. It's already been proven that the cost of universal healthcare and even free higher education would be a fraction of what we spend on the air force alone. And yet in spit of this giant military budget, the rich remain.
>>74807673
Well think about it. Let's say you gave those thugs a free education system and told them that if they work hard they could afford cool clothes and a nice car without risking death in a gunfight. I would absolutely take that offer.
>>74807701
In Uruguay we tried, oh lordy we tried, until the social democrats of the time began pandering to the left and claiming that the right was going to make the country into some kind of hellhole just because of a bit of liberalization of the economy (some privatizations, a bit of liberalization of tariffs and so on)
A crisis later, said 'social-democrats' began ruling the country and then ran the country to the ground (this is now)
>>74807848
Then why doesn't the fucking MIDES (the ministry of welfare in uruguay literally) take care of the poor instead of doing a half-shit work and having to rely on fucking christian charities to pick up the scraps
We pay 10% of our salaries after gaining 650 (20k pesos) usd a month
>>74808078
Those thugs CAN get a free education. It's called the public library. They can walk right in and start reading books. Right now. They can go out and get a job, RIGHT NOW. They choose to steal and hurt people, because it's a fast buck. Don't equate crime with necessity, it's the eternal lie.
>>74807415
> And a hundred years later look at what it got us, fucking nowhere
Look at where it got us here a hundred years later...?
Inb4 only one nation can have banks - they are only ~5.8% of jobs and ~10.5% of our GDP.
>>74804485
>Personally I'd be happy to sacrifice some of what I make to help my fellow countrymen out and make sure they're safe and healthy.
Then do so you pommy cunt, you don't need the state to force everyone at gunpoint to do what you're too chickenshit to do on your own.
>>74808097
>Then why doesn't the fucking MIDES (the ministry of welfare in uruguay literally) take care of the poor
Honestly, I am not familiar enough with how your government might fuck up.
I am definitely not saying that you *automatically* get a perfectly functioning government. You have to make it work.
It's just way more easy to have government specialists deal with all the basics of social welfare than leaving it all to private entities *when* it works.
>>74804485
Because you are stealing shit I worked hard for to give to someone who has worked less hard. Thats the entirety of thinking behind income redistribution.
If everyone worked as hard, there would be no need. Therefore, it only benefits the lazy. And I do not believe laziness is a characteristic that should be rewarded.
>>74807860
Housing, food, water, healthcare, education, and transportation. We have half of those already. What's wrong with supplying the other half?
>>74807893
And they can have it, as long as they work hard and move up. Social democracy. It's like half socialism, not full socialism.
To me it seems like arguments like
>There's ALWAYS someone wanting power
Directly contradict arguments like
>Why get a job when you can be comfortably housed and fed for free?
In a social democracy there's still competition, there's still a market. You can still trade in your honda for a ferrari. You just have a safety net to fall back on. You'll never starve to death or die because you can't afford a medical bill.
>>74808207
It's not that simple though. Watch bloods & crips: born in america. Inner city violence and gangs have been around for decades. It's a difficult system to escape.
>>74807960
More like corrupt, I assumed it was comment knowledge at this point that governments hand building projects over to overpriced contractors
>>74808249
How many state workers does Switzerland have?
Out of a population of 3 million Uruguay has at least 400k, which is what, 20-30% of the working age population?
Its insane man, people literally die if the state got turned off one day here; one, fucking, day
>>74808407
All am asking is for some sanity when you people advocate for social democracy
Not giving people false hopes when all it gives you is shitload of state dependant workers
>>74808531
>In a social democracy there's still competition, there's still a market. You can still trade in your honda for a ferrari. You just have a safety net to fall back on. You'll never starve to death or die because you can't afford a medical bill.
Give human choice: Pay 70% taxes to have same living standard as other humans who don't work. Human decides to not work.
I just blew apart your system.
>>74808651
Its even simpler
Make sure nobody ever does anything productive other than working off the state
EVER
Not a single enterprise, everyone works for the state
And you'll see the social democratic structure fall like a house of cards to the wind
Its built on other people's sweat, that's how bullshit it is
>>74808411
Almost everyone who is wealthy won the birth lottery. There is almost no fucking way in which you can inherit xx million or more and become poor. It's trivial to get more income than expenditures from that.
And many of those who are very poor lost a life lottery. Accident, illness, whatever.
In reality, you don't even get *paid* based on how hard you work. Construction workers who have wrecked their bodies at work with 50 already get shit all - NONE of them are rich. But the owners of their companies sure are.
>>74808531
Education isnt needed for people to be productive, i would even say at this point it would be counter intuitive to do so.
Transportation isnt even feasible for people living in the US, maybe if it was England, Netherlands or some small country where everyone is packed together.
The fact that it would cost well more from society as a whole to support it, than it would put back in the long term.
Im not disagreeing with the things people actually need to live.
>>74804485
You should be the change you want to see in the world. Start by paypal-ing me some money. I'm an unemployed minority suffering from mental disease, therefore it's your obligation to support me.
Pay me, faggot.
Kagamin is so kawaii~ <3
Social democracy is highly centralized, creating ample oppertunity for corruption.
Social democracy is inefficient compared to more decentralized systems such as capitalism. Social democracy doesn't promote survival of the fittest, it promotes survival of whatever special interest can appeal for the most government benefits.
Social democracy works better in a vaccuum than in reality, in reality the high performing 1%ers of your country aren't going to pay everybodies taxes if you ask them to, they're going to move to a country that treats them better. A lot of the claimed benefit of social democracy is the redistribution of wealth from rich to poor but if anything this just leads to brain drain.
All governments practice social democracy to an extent, social democracy is not some wild crazy idea. Still only retarded left wingers think you can go full retard with it with no consequences.
>>74808651
Pay 70% taxes to have same living standard as other humans who don't work.
You wouldn't though. You would still have a higher standard of living from being rich. Also a system like this wouldn't lead to a 70% tax for anyone, not even the very rich.
You can still make money and keep it for yourself, just some of it goes to keeping people safe. Just like we have now, only a little more.
You're talking about something like communist state where everyone lives in a metal shack no matter how hard they work. I'm talking about a social safety net that's expanded to the point that there's no homelessness, extreme poverty, starvation, or death from treatable disease. They're two different things entirely.
>>74804485
>I think the world would be a much better and less violent place if people didn't have to worry about where their next meal came from.
>over 50% of moroccans in the Netherlands are on benefits
>over 70% of petty crime is committed by Moroccans
Yeah nah. That logic doesnt stand up. Niggers and muslims are just gonna be thugs for the hell of it.
>>74809071
Social democracy has a few benefits though
- It creates a more educated, healthier, more productive workforce when the poor are taken care of
- Social cohesion is improved and everybody is happier when you don't have to live in the same town as some mentally ill violent homeless guy who there are no social services for.
- It tends to redistribute wealth towards those who need it more and who can get more mileage out of $1000. This is of course counteracted by the fact that wealth is also redistributed towards more stupid people.
It's just if you go too far with it you wreck your economy and in the long term there are less of those left-wing gibs to go around.
>>74809127
Okay, so petty crimes are still committed, but look at the big picture. Crime rates in the Netherlands are still way lower than places like USA.
http://www.numbeo.com/crime/country_result.jsp?country=Netherlands
You're proving my point more than you're challenging it.
>>74807212
>Apart from that, social democrats is why we no longer have ~12h work days for employees
Yeah, thanks for that, you fucking homos. I *want* to work 12 hours a day, but thats illegal "for my own safety'.
Stop enforcing your gay standards on other people, you lazy motherfucker. What else am I supposed to do besides work, accumulate capital and invest?
Fucking unions and socialist laws are holding me back.
>cant get fired for brief ilnesses
No, instead you employer has to pay your full wages for up to 2 years if you get seriously ill. Which can potentially ruin a small business that employs only 3 or 4 people.
>>74809084
>t. brainwashed liberal who doesn't know he's spouting Marxism
You're assuming that the government given that amount of power would use it wisely and efficiently. So I'm prompted to believe that you're an idiot or a wannabe tyrant.
>>74804485
They do have some responsibility for Rosa Luxembourg's death.
Seriously though? It's shit because it's capitalism. Would you rather have a giant turd, or a giant turd with a smiley-face carved into it?
>>74805990
Slippery slope + strawman combo
ebin
>>74809662
>it's a communism hasn't been tried episode
>>74808888
Fucking nonsense. Most inherited fortunes are wasted away in a generation. Rare is the fortune that lasts more than a few generations.
Huge parts of the Dutch population are wealthy (incomes of over 100k and over 400k in assets). And they sure as hell didnt inherit it.
I accumulated over 100k just by fucking working and investing, and by the time I die, I will presumably be amongst the top 10% of incomes in NL.
That lie about inheritance is so trite.
>>74809445
I'm really not though lol
Marxism is a society with no Capital, no money, no classes. Dictatorship of the proletariat. I don't want that. Capitalism is good. Democracy is good. We need both of those things. But we should take care of people's basic needs.
Think about it. When you were a little kid, your parents took care of everything. They fed you, took you to the doctor, housed you etc. Did that stop you from being competitive? No of course not. Kids are hella competitive.
Taking care of people does not make them just want to drop everything and sit around in a government house with white paint eating cheap food. People will always want the good life.
Right now you trust our democratic government to have checks and balances that preserve and defend Capitalism. It's a contradiction to claim that corruption is too likely in Social Democracy . You need checks and balances, you need people voting and informed.
>>74807114
>believing JBS propaganda
>>74807673
Many inner city residents can't even afford a car.
>>74808593
> How many state workers does Switzerland have?
~9.8% of the working labor force (OECD numbers from 2010 - so not perfectly up to date, but should be about the same).
> Not giving people false hopes when all it gives you is shitload of state dependant workers
Nobody says you have to bloat the state completely?
It's about the state solving specific issues people would need in their lifes. Education. Health care of all kind. Assistance in dealing with unemployment (finding a new job and financial assistance -a cheap loan plus some free money- to prevent any unnecessary sales of next to necessary personal life needs). Legal assistance so even if you are poor you can claim your rights. That sort of stuff.
>>74805547
Here's the rub about taxing the rich: they can move to a safe haven for taxes and then just visit whatever country they want. The rich are extremely mobile.
>>74804485
The litmus test you should always ask yourself is, "or else what?".
"What's wrong with creating a society in which...?" are the words, but the question you're actually trying to ask is "what's wrong with WANTING a society..."
which really drives the question at hand, and shows the disconnect. WANTING a society that provides these things is in everyone's interest. Building systems that can provide it are the real questions, and where the discrepancies begin to amount.
The people in such a society will build houses, learn & practice medicine, build transportation/infrastructure, and grow food...or else what?
What will ensure that a large enough portion of society provides these things in enough quantity to offset those who will/can not?
>>74809819
>You need checks and balances, you need people voting and informed.
And right now we have neither. We have legions of gibbering morons howling about gibsmedats salivating in anticipation of a larger gubment tit to suck on. Giving them what they want means that American instantly stops existing.
Freedom means the freedom to have a shit life because of your shit choices.
>>74809377
Thats because we are far, far whiter than you guys are, have a far more stringent culture based on calvinist modesty, and because there are only fucking 17 million of us.
Almost all our crime is committed by Minorities. Moroccans, Turks, Antillians. The issue is cultural, not political. These people have a violence based, thuggish culture. That doesnt promote long term thinking and is very, very pride and masculinity focused. They answer everything with violence, and only ever think of short term benefits.
Everyone in NL is offered the same chances to go to University and get a good job. Hard any Mocros, Turks or Antillians take it.
Chinese do though. And they're almost the only ones.
Cultural reasons.
>>74808207
Many areas have shitty libraries. Even so, a proper job usually requires a degree, a résumé, or training in a craft.
>>74810028
Look at my other argument though:
>>74808078
>>74809945
Healthcare is entirely privatized in the Netherlands, with the Government only price fixing and regulating insurers.
So try again, you goddamn commie. Our system is at least as good as yours in terms of quality.
As for education, private education exists and is frequently of higher quality than public education. Its only logical companies will invest in getting highly educated people for jobs they need, so they can and often do run schools.
All public higher education gets you is a lot of barristas with sociology and psychology degrees. Or worse, activists with a degree in Gender Studies.
always majority of Americans in this thread telling us how worthless people are lmfao such a shit country
>when you remove obstacles, people are more driven
I don't know about you, but the less I have to do, the more I sit on my computer playing video games and shitposting.
>>74809445
>social democracy
>Marxism
wew lad
>>74809743
When did I say that?
>>74810336
Take care of the amount of niggers and beaners that we are, then give us your opinion.
>good life
Working your ass off and getting taxed 70% so other people can live comfortably for free?
>>74804485
In the long run, this model is completely unsustainable. In today's society, we know that declining birthrates is a real thing which means that the young workers share a much larger burden of these social programs as the populace ages. There is no guarantee that the population will always be stable and that a viable amount of young, new capable workers will be able to pay for this.
>>74810621
Wow I keep forgetting to greentext lol.
>>74810082
>We have legions of gibbering morons howling about gibsmedats salivating in anticipation of a larger gubment tit to suck on. Giving them what they want means that American instantly stops existing.
That is a gross oversimplification but it did make me laugh lol.
Lots of economists agree that America would be just fine if we had universal healthcare. It would actually save people a lot of money, especially the middle class.
>>74810621
>lol
Good god, how old are you kid? 12? Who even unironically writes out lol? You have to be completely lacking in self awareness.
>>74804485
The shit you are saying will never work unless there is a monetary reform. Though Capitalism will never work either without a monetary reform.
>>74810545
Capitalism bought them in and you're still defending it. Capitalism today is crony. But /pol/ will continue to defend it without conceding anything is wrong with it and the left will continue to rise
>>74810781
Chill out man were all memers here
>>74810600
Not true at all. Britain's had the NHS and their own social program since the end of world war II and it's been going on uninterrupted for almost a century.
>>74809775
> Most inherited fortunes are wasted away in a generation
Nope.
> Rare is the fortune that lasts more than a few generations.
I haven't seen numbers on that. Care to show me?
We literally still have people burgher associations -that's the medieval citizens of the walled cities proper, the richer folks back then- owning inherited lands passed down the dynasty from the 16th century.
> I accumulated over 100k just by fucking working and investing, and by the time I die, I will presumably be amongst the top 10% of incomes in NL.
You'll have to show that it's the majority worldwide who became rich recently, after inflation before you get to call it a lie.
I don't actually care how YOU got rich. You are not the majority.
>>74810724
What sort of fantasy land do you live in? The tax burden would fall DIRECTLY on the middle class. The rich would pay for privatized medical care, and the poor people who use their welfare to funnel sugars and carcinogens into their mouths like suicidal pigs and make the middle class pay for it all.
You are ridiculously naive.
>>74810980
? This degeneracy and mass migration of foreigners(along with the toleration of it) is a direct result of socialism
As well the UK has horrendous health care
>>74810980
Social security, medicare, medicaid, etc. are all destroying more and more of the US budget as the population ages. I don't know about the NHS, but there's no way it's a financially stable now as it was in say the 60s especially with the massive Muslim migration.
>>74810322
> Healthcare is entirely privatized in the Netherlands, with the Government only price fixing and regulating insurers.
If the government makes the rules ("regulating") with regards to who gets what kind of health care deal and then sets the price and this is then a deal offered to any citizen, that's obviously extremely socialist.
It doesn't matter that they don't run the hospitals or the insurance companies. I am not saying they have to do that.
>>74811038
Nay son. Bernie Sander's plan for universal healthcare (again, this is just one example) would save almost everyone money except for the very rich.
http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2016/02/bernie_sanders_health_care_tax_plan_would_raise_13_trillion_yet_increase_after-tax_incomes_for_all_i.php#.V0J1rPkrJD8
>>74804485
>What exactly is so bad about social democracy?
Niggers. As soon as non-whites enter the system, it suffers from tragedy of the commons and everybody loses.
Non-whites didn't develop empathy for their fellow man, only their immediate family. They also have questionable impulse-control or ability to sacrifice for the greater good. There is simply no way to argue against that as we have a century of data backing it up.
>>74810810
>capitalism brought them in
WEW LAD.
Artificially inflated wages that send false market signals and subsidized laziness is not free market.
>>74811007
Literally the only fortune going back any length of time are the Rothschilds.
And I suppose the various fortunes of the royal families of Europe, but thats easy to do when you're being backed by the taxpayer at every turn.
>majority worldwide
Worldwide, who cares? This is about how to run a country. In the Netherlands, after the war, hundreds of thousand of people made enough money to become quite upper middle class. Over 60% of the population here could be considered "middle class" (assets over 300k).
And guess what, none of us inherited that shit, as it was all bombed flat by the Allies and the Germans. We built it up.
You think Rich Chinese people today inherited that money? What money was there to inherit after Mao's cultural revolution?
When economies grow, the hard working, the creative and the diligent become wealthy. And their sons or grandsons will piss away that money. With it maybe lasting a little longer when you're talking about millions upon millions of dollars. Maybe it will last another generation.
>>74811393
They dont own the insurance companies or the hospitals. Those are both privatized and entirely for-profit.
All the government does is set a minimum price and demand an acceptable level of care. The price is set at roughly 83 euros a month (scaling with inflation) and you get a minimum level of care for that. If you dont earn enough, you can get a government subsidy. If you want really good healthcare, you buy a more expensive plan. As extravagant as you like.
That system works quite well. Much better than commie ideas like the NHS, where the state owns all healthcare.
>>74811413
>Disney
>BernieBro
And it was then I knew I was talking to a degenerate retard.
>>74811642
>ad hominem
u lose sry
>>74811413
I doubt it. If he or Obama were smart, they would have copied either our system or the Swedish or Swiss systems.
But they dont. They come up with all kinds of new retarded plans that are completly untested. What a great idea, guys.
Obamas plan was supposed to provide cheaper healthcare for everyone too. Yet all premiums and deductibles have gone up, across the board.
So excuse me for not believing Bernie Sanders fantasy promises.
A person who makes just 50000 a year only pays 50 to 60 dollars in yearly taxes for all of the welfare and medicare we have now. The other 1000 dollars in taxes that person pays goes to corporations. I'm entirely fucking certain that taking just 10 dollars out of those corporate dollar taxes would make plenty enough for a socialist handout to every us citizen and this is all just the tax that a lower middle class person already fucking pays. The only real reasons people argue against that kind of socialism is bigotry and/or ignorance about how their own fucking taxes work.
>>74811414
And there's the truth that people are either too cucked or too indoctrinated to admit. If we just accepted this simple fact humanity to move on. Eliminate or control the nigger populations or face disaster.
>>74811762
This. If people knew what their current taxes are going to then about half the arguments in this thread would not even be made.
>>74811762
>citation needed
>>74811413
>punish wealth and production.
>expect the economy to still function.
>>74804485
Because somebody has to work to meet needs of those who will never ever work. Why should I work for gypsies?
>>74804555
First post best post
>>74804485
Social-democracy is a stop gap that papers over the cracks of capitalism, but it does not solve the problems it creates. The means of production will still be in private hands. And it barely lasted 30 years in the West before neoliberalism arose and capital reasserted itself.
Socialism, not social democracy, is the path forwards.
>>74811688
Ad hom applies in this case because you don't possess full faculties. I have a website that's perfect for you.
>>74811911
It's not punishment lol, it's allocating a fraction of your income to a government program.
Kek, every supposed argument is starting to be repeated. Maybe it's time to leave.
>>74811596
> And guess what, none of us inherited that shit, as it was all bombed flat by the Allies and the Germans. We built it up.
It was bombed, but not wiped out completely at all, plus you still owned the ground and received quite many billions of financial post-war assistance and more hidden in preferential deals on machinery and stuff.
Of course you also earned money, but I bet that people who owned no land and nothing had a worse start post-war (and even received less assistance post-war) than those that had such things.
> You think Rich Chinese people today inherited that money?
No, in their case I think they basically had slaves or something very close to it. Probably also some political contacts.
If you consider that their own work, you are confusing "work" with pretty abusive exploitation of others.
>>74812092
How's that working for you?
>>74811881
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiRm6KjoO_MAhXGlB4KHdadB7IQFghYMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fctj.org%2Fctjinthenews%2F2013%2F11%2Fthe_progress_report_foodstamps_cost_a_few_bucks_corporate_welfare_costs_billions.php&usg=AFQjCNG0TkLAwU2DzaUL5Q07-ZsGGX6tTw&sig2=cMyzfxPTnFTagWOWPMt_PA
Obviously the handout Im talking about would replace welfare and foodstamps.,
>>74804485
Because when you take the taxes and the resulting government services into account you find that what you want to call "social democracy" actually makes people poorer overall than they would have normally been under proper capitalism.
>>74812204
>corporate subsidies are the same as welfare
Ignorant leftists as usual.
>>74812172
>It's not punishment lol, it's allocating a fraction of your income to a government program.
So, punishing wealth? You make taxation sound like its voluntary. I think you might be intellectually dishonest.
>>74811762
>>74811762
>you only pay 1060 dollars in tax on an income of 50k
I mean... do you even basic math? I dont know what the minimum tax in the USA is, but over here it is 36%. Lets assume its 20% in the USA, you'd be paying 10k in taxes on that income.
>>74811879
I know perfectly well where my taxes go (subsidizing moroccan jihadis, shipped off to Africa, wasted on the EU and a teeny little bit is used to invest in Dutch infrastructure). Thats why I categorically oppose any and all taxation.
I do not for a second believe that businesses could do as bad a job as a government.
>>74804555
The Will of Kek
>>74804485
Why do you think you have the right to take others belongings because you think they don't need them? Who are you to decide that anyway? Just because someone has more than you, doesn't mean you are entitled to what they have. Fucking retard. Kill yourself.
>>74806252
Do you take that 5.4% before are after the federal and state income tax?
>>74812197
Mass immigration is caused by capitalism seeking to depress wages and pit workers against one another. The USSR didn't permit immigration for a very good reason. Sorry class cuck. Labour are neoliberals.
>>74812174
>but I bet that people who owned no land and nothing had a worse start post-war (and even received less assistance post-war) than those that had such things.
Probably, but that was short term. People with land are all in the east. They are poor farmers. All the money is in the west, in the coast. Which was earned by lots of people starting businesses. The Dutch have one of the highest ratios of per capita businesses in the world.
I think you and I have different definitions of Rich. I consider anyone well off "Rich". Basically anyone who can afford a house, a car, and has savings. Say 400k in the EU.
You seem to think only multi millionaires are rich.
Do you fucking realize you get taxed 52% if you earn over 100k in the Netherlands? In France its whopping 64%.
The rich are taxed plenty as it is, and they wont pay for your welfare state by upping their taxes to 90%, buddy.
>>74812365
>welfare
countries like the netherlands are literally less than a tenth the population of the US, so you don't know shit
>>74812528
>using the USSR as an example
Well grandpa it's about time we took you off life support.
>>74812356
>intellectually dishonest
more like intellectually deficient
>>74811439
WEW LAD.
>Freemarket
Profits increases
Prices increases
Wages stagnate
Jobs go offshore
>>74804485
i live in one and its shit, you pay literaly the living costs, health insurance etc for others, if you dont need to see a doctor often its unprofitable, i dont give a fuck if some other people die ,its nothing but theft.
>>74813293
also i forgot the best part, even if you pay all your life for this shit especialyl health insruance you have zero benefits over some fithly migrant who just moved in your country. he literally gets your health insurance money without even paying something in it himself.
>>74804555
this
>>74804555
fp always bp
>>74813206
WEW LAD
>Profits increases
by cutting costs because wages are artificially propped up.
>Prices increases
Inflation caused by the FED.
>Wages stagnate
(see the one on profit increases.)
>Jobs go offshore
due to a 1700 page document with 741 pages dedicated to the treaty and regulations.
>>74812656
> Probably, but that was short term. People with land are all in the east. They are poor farmers. All the money is in the west, in the coast.
Your cities mostly moved during / after the war?
No? Then I guess the more valuable land stayed where it was...?
Even if clearly post-war having any land must have been better than having nothing.
> I think you and I have different definitions of Rich. [...]
> You seem to think only multi millionaires are rich.
Yea, I consider *them* the rich.
Consider that you are probably a multi-millionaire if you have one decent house(-block) in a wealthy European city already. Or a relatively small minority share in a big company. Not that too many people know how that is, 'cause the rich being and remaining and getting more rich has led to them owning most of those things.
> Do you fucking realize you get taxed 52% if you earn over 100k in the Netherlands? In France its whopping 64%.
I wonder more about how wealth is taxed, and whether that's personal wage only or also the money from dividends and the like? And how much is it after tax loopholes?
> The rich are taxed plenty as it is, and they wont pay for your welfare state by upping their taxes to 90%, buddy
Nowhere near 90% are necessary though?
>>74813636
WEW LAD
Lets see
Australia up to the early 1980 wasn't free market. Free-market faggots get elected. Open up Australia. Recession. Huge increase in prices.
>But but freemarket
"by cutting costs"
Like sending jobs overseas and raising prices. Goes against the nations interests.
"caused by the fed"
no caused by the need to raise the stock price and dividend. what you think stockholders want a stock priced $1.01 and next year its only $1.02?
>wages stagnate
umm to lower the minimum wage campaigns are funded by big business. against the nations interest
>due to 1700..
Companies send jobs overseas because their wage is 50cents an hour. As Trump said he rings up his credit company and gets a "hello this is sanjeet how am i help you"
>>74813897
Oh thats just income tax. If you have over 25k savings, that is taxed 4%. Own a house? Its taxed based on its theoretical sale value every year. Car? Monthly environment, road and ownership taxes. Pet? Pet tax.
Effective tax pressure is well above 52% in other words.
>nowhere near 90% is necessary
No? But if 52% (effectively more) isnt even enough to finance your social democratic welfare state, what level of taxation would you say is necessary? 60%? 70%?
Remember, these are Bernie's positions.
1. Everyone whose value is worth $14.99 or less, absolutely deserves to be destitute and thrown on the streets. Basically, people who engage in unskilled labor are subhuman garbage and need to be thrown out onto the streets.
2. We must make college courses free, so that we can further drive down the value of skilled labor as well -- and remember, Bernie believes that the role of the state is to intervene wherever someone whose value of labor dips below $15/hr and get him fired and his life destroyed.
3. We must ensure we have open borders and as many immigrants as possible, to do the work that is now illegal for people in the first category. Its okay for Pedro to work at $1/hr, $4/hr, or $14.99/hr in Bernieland, but its a fucking CRIME for you to do the same. Why? Because if you question it, you're a racist shitlord.
Only the very elite deserve jobs or dignity. We must do everything we can to make sure we stick it to the 1%, such as by driving down the cost of labor.
>>74814172
>ustralia up to the early 1980 wasn't free market. Free-market faggots get elected. Open up Australia. Recession. Huge increase in prices.
PM was Labor party. Upper house was Labor. Lower house was Labor. I don't see how you can blame it on free marketers.
>Like sending jobs overseas and raising prices.
I explained this earlier.
>umm to lower the minimum wage campaigns are funded by big business.
Maybe because it hurts them. If you make it expensive for them to operate, you might as well see even more jobs going to China and India.
>>74813293
>its nothing but theft
always the truth these morons think they can out engineer morals and common sense though. there is no free lunch, ever. nobody is bothered by roads, firestations, or even hard STEM education but giving shit out for other adults to squander is absolute insanity.
>>74814363
Your taxation as percentage of GDP is ~50%. [Figures that makes taxes around 60-70% for your definition of rich and above?]
Ours is ~30% and it almost pays for everything I want done. I'd go with maybe 35% myself - figures there is a bit too little money for the elderly and disabled (a bit more personal care, some robot legs or expensive surgeries or whatever in cases where that might help a lot...)
We might also save some if we smacked pharma and hospitals to work at a bit more like the same rates as they do next door in Germany or Austria. [Robot legs and camera eyes for everyone as they get old?]
>>74812656
yeah thats how it works if you earn 100k they literally take 64k
literally how it works
>>74815693
Yes, it literally is. My dad, when I was young, earned 10k a month. He received 4800 as his salary at the end of the month. They literally do take that percentage of your salary. At least here.
Sure, there are deductibles. Mortgage rent constructions and so on. But if you were to just go by wages, yep, effective wage tax is 52% for anything over 100k.
In the Netherlands, everyone's taxes are deducted from you salary and paid by your employer directly to the state. You never even see that money.
>>74815170
Their policys were free market tier. Keating(labour party) is now a international banker. It's freemarket thinking to blame not a political party.
>It hurts them
You put the interest of a corporation ahead of your own people? We're not China,South Africa or India, and that's because of our high wage. Again its why corporations can't be trusted.
/pol which is a nationalist forum and you're telling everyone we should bend over to corporate why dude? These are the same people trying to smash borders
>>74808078
>and even free higher education
because you can easily reform higher education pricing without making it free. Rather than taking out student loans, students can sign financial agreements with the school that allow them to pay their college bill after graduation, either for a set amount or as a percentage of their income for a set amount of years. That and remove all gender studies programs nationwide so we won't have to pay those useless professors and can more easily lower tuition. And maybe get rid of in-state vs out of state tuition.
>>74816079
>In the Netherlands, everyone's taxes are deducted from you salary and paid by your employer directly to the state.
well at least that's nice.
>>74804485
>What's wrong with creating a society in which everyone has their basic needs covered like a house, health care, transportation, food and water and then they can work harder and move up in the world to get better stuff?
People have to work to build homes, cure illnesses, manufacture cars, and all that good stuff. In the short term, giving people who work less stuff so that people who loaf can have more stuff is not only unpleasant in itself, it causes less work and more loafing; so you need to tax workers even more to give the loafers everything they need; and so it continues.
But it gets even worse over several generations because in each generation, people with intelligence and energy are having fewer kids than they would have had otherwise (because they have the foresight not to have kids they can't take care of, and their taxes lower their ability to care for a big family) whereas people with neither are having more kids (because they have kids thoughtlessly, and never suffer any real consequence because the hard worker picks up the tab). So then every generation, people become dumber and lazier.
>>74804485
>Is people everywhere starving and homeless really worth putting an extra couple of dollars in my pocket?
This is not your problem and social democracy would not fix this either. If anything, there would be more people starving and homeless because of the negative economic effects of a social democracy.
>>74804485
that does exist. thats called welfare. being from mississippi. ive got a pretty good view of welfare, and it sucks
>>74812346
They are literally corporate welfare. Now some degree of corporate welfare is desirable - after all, it would facilitate policy goals without unduly harming the people (i.e. we should all use LED bulbs, but subsidizing them for a time rather than outlawing every other kind of lightbulb would be less coercive).
But corporate welfare should never be an indefinite thing. America has had corporate subsidies for agriculture for almost a hundred years. It's ridiculous.
Social democracy is just capitalism with a welfare state.
It inherits all the internal contradictions of capitalism, while maintaining an "airbag" to prevent a proletariat revolution to establish socialism. Basically "we'll give you fake socialism so you wont kill us to get the real one". The thing is social democracy gives way to fascism, with the empirical evidence that was nazi Germany.
TLDR social democracy HELPS the establishment of fascism, thats why non-retarded leftists dont want bernie to win.
>>74818514
No one wants Bernie to win. I'd rather not live in a fascist state based around the ideals of cuck. It would be Brave New World.
>>74804485
>working my ass off to pay for worthless niggers to get their free black studies degrees
Fuck you OP you piece of shit.
>>74807148
>Think about it most violent crimes and thefts are committed by poor people. Why? Because they're worried about putting food on the table.
This is wrong, though. There are certain groups in this country who have a much higher violent crime rate in relation to their poverty. Poverty doesn't explain criminal behavior nearly as much as people would like to believe.
>>74819755
the only way for black folks to improve their lives is by giving them a chance to a destined career instead of having them run around being criminals because they dont have any choice
>>74818626
>le bernie is a gommunizz may may
leafy, he's far from being even a socialist
>>74808078
>Well think about it. Let's say you gave those thugs a free education system and told them that if they work hard they could afford cool clothes and a nice car without risking death in a gunfight. I would absolutely take that offer.
You would take that offer because, presumably, you are not a criminal. A criminal won't take that offer. He'll choose to continue being a criminal. Reform doesn't work.
>>74820207
a criminal might not change, but free college education will give potential criminals a chance to not fall into the wrong path.
worst case scenario is the ppl going into college will be indoctrinated by capitalist propaganda and will fight against a socialist revolution
>>74819981
You can't improve blacks. Nobody can. All they do is shoot the hand that feeds them.
If you give them an education they just use it to attack whites while retards like you cheer them on. Nice proxy fuckwit.
>>74808078
Also, about those F15s, we spend money on those because we have defense obligations with the rest of the world. We could tell NATO, Japan, South Korea, ANZAC, Taiwan, etc to get lost, but that would undermine our own security objectives. Military spending isn't that simple.
Furthermore, free higher education is unsustainable unless you FORCE people to study what you want them to study, and without the threat of death/imprisonment, you're not convincing some gender studies roastie to study electrical engineering. There has to be hard limits as well. You can't just let everyone who wants to study electrical engineering to go and study it. That would flood the market and depress wages, meaning less tax revenue and less ability to fund "social democracy." Primary and secondary education don't require recommendation letters, a minimum GPA, and SAT results, which is why we can't have exclusivity with those unlike with universities, where we could limit attendance to the top 5% academically and tell everyone else to fuck off, which is the only way a free education system could potentially work. We could have quotas and hard limits on how many people can study which subjects, and these quotas do not change except for some massive demand from industry. Also, it is far more important for people to go to trade school, but even these should be limited. Regardless, you'll either end up with a lot of people with only a high school degree, or a lot of people with a worthless college degree because there's a higher supply of X than demand on the part of employers.
>>74820645
this isnt a proxy, comrade. im legitimate in vietnam and posting from here.
and the situation blacks are in is because of the socioeconomic disadvantage that they had in the past. i do admit BLM are idiots, but they do have a point, black lives arent valued high enough, especially by other blacks. by giving them education, they'll realize what's right and stop killing each other.
>>74809084
Alright, look at the black community today, and compare it to 50 years ago, when social welfare was much less prevalent.
The blacks have degenerated massively. Black culture in the US would choose not to work and instead live off the work of white workers. While whites, struggling to save money to raise kids (a LOT more money goes into kids than just education), toil away at their jobs, Shaniqua is going to pop out 5 more kids and demand the government increase benefits to support them. This will continue, no matter how much free education, training, and contraceptives you give them. They won't take your offers of improvement simply because they cannot comprehend the benefits of delayed gratification.
>>74821014
If you're really vietnamese then open your little slit eyes and see reality you fucking retard.
Look at american universities, flooding those with niggers has worked out fucking great hasn't it. They gave the niggers an inch and now they're trying to overthrow the whole fucking system.
>by giving them education, they'll realize what's right and stop killing each other.
I refuse to believe you're actually this stupid. The courses niggers choose in college just make them worse.
This fucking nigger is a "respected intellectual" if the promotional videos are to be beleived.
Get fucked you stupid cunt.
>>74804485
Do you really think that all this suffering in the world is caused purely by the factors that put a few extra dollars in your pocket? I find that view naive.
That said, I would love a sustainable system of providing for citizens. Unfortunately, that would require not only an outstanding architect and fully cooperative populace willing to contribute and be responsible in using the system, but it would also require giving up a degree of my own liberty.
I would rather be free than pampered.
>>74820392
No, even potential criminals, for the most part, will choose not to take the opportunity. Unless you go to high schools, put a gun against niggers' heads, and say "you're going to get an A and go to college or I'll fucking kill you," you will not see potential criminals taking opportunities. Squalor and degeneracy is ingrained in black culture. You can't change it by inviting them to change. You need to force them to change.
>>74804485
>why not have taxpayers fund basic standards of living for everybody, people can then get jobs if they want more things
I don't think you understand how many people will choose to just not work if they can live without working. To give a relevant example, look at welfare niggers in the US today who are in exactly this situation. If the whole country were like this, you'd have way too many societal deficits (leeches) for it to be sustainable. This is the source of the cliche'd idiom that "the problem with socialism is that you run out of other people's money".
>>74821839
How do you "know" this? Where are you getting your information, up your ass and around the corner? Bigotry is taught, not learned, as you are an example of it. The so called "squalor and degeneracy" is ingrained in your BELIEF of black culture, and the media who constantly funds the groups that represent it, instead of those who contradict it.
>>74822694
>bigotry is taught, not learned
if you're going to bait, don't put such an obvious fucking contradiction in your post. low energy/10
Because not everyone deserves the free shit a welfare state offers. If you actually went and lived in a city like Chicago or something you'd see the kind of scum who leech off the system. It enrages me that a pretty sizeable chunk is getting taken out of my hard earned paycheck and given out to people like this. The only people who should get support like that are the ACTUALLY DISABLED. If you're just a fucking worthless deadbeat you don't deserve a dime.
