It's that time of the day. Name me a socialist country that exist/existed.
>>74573945
Venezuela. Exists for at least a few more days.
bump
>>74574298
Venezuela is capitalist. It simply has a mad dog in power, and had another mad dog in power for decades
bump
>>74573945
Cuba, the Soviet Union and the early China..
>inb4 not real
Yes it is, anon. That's what socialism leads to...
>>74575148
Socialism implies the workers owning the means of production. In waht way did the workers in those countries own the means of production?
>>74575148
The Soviet Union was capitalist though
>>74575227
The workers are the means of production in proper totalitarian socialist states, and they only exist for the purpose of maintaining the glorious socialist utopia.
>>74575260
That's what it became.. Because whenever you try to implement 'real' socialism, you'll find that it does not actually work, because humand are human, and not socialist.
>>74575260
>B-BUT FOX NEWS SAID IT WAS SOCIALIST!!!!!!
>>74575227
Socialism can also include 'democratic' control of the means of production through the state, not just cooperatives/unions.
>>74575496
>The workers are the means of production in proper totalitarian socialist states
And men are woman in Netherlands. Means of production is factories, land, tools...
>and they only exist for the purpose of maintaining the glorious socialist utopia.
In the states you mentioned workers only existed for the whims of the rulers, pretty much what capitalism is.
>>74575657
>Socialism can also include 'democratic' control of the means of production through the state, not just cooperatives/unions.
No, Marx specifically said it couldn't. The means of production need to be effectively in the workers hands. If the means are in the state hands then it's state capitalism
Stop posting of this instagramm whores selling their dignity for rich arabs who get flyed in dubai
fucked bukkaked and eating assholes.
>>74575832
The dictionary definition has it down as including centralised state control. This would obviously be complete state control, not the social democrat policies of state intervention in a capitalist market.
>>74576054
no
>>74576145
Show me the dictionary definition.
>>74575700
>And men are woman in Netherlands. Means of production is factories, land, tools...
Under capitalism, yes. Under communism the people are the means of production, because collectivism doesn't value the individual that much. Socialism is to perish for the good of the collective.. 'Citizens' are just replaceable resources under socialism.
>In the states you mentioned workers only existed for the whims of the rulers, pretty much what capitalism is.
They existed for the whims of the system. At least in capitalism you can choose who you work for.. You could even work for yourself, if you've got the persistence, skills and opportunity. You might fail, but that's life.
>>74575832
So what you're saying is: Socialism doesn't actually exist, and is nothing more than a silly theory thought up by a man who never actually worked a day in his life?
USA since obama took over
>>74576268
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
>any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
>>74574484
Because seizing farm lands to "redistribute" it to the poor is the capitalist way to go. Nice try, commy/pol/
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106620230
>>74576288
>Under communism the people are the means of production
Were the hell are you finding this shit?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production
First line, nigger
>Socialism is to perish for the good of the collective
And capitalism is to perish a colective for the sake of a few.
>'Citizens' are just replaceable resources under socialism.
And they aren't in capitalism. In my point of view, capitalist globals are destroying our homes for the sake of muh economy
>Socialism doesn't actually exist, and is nothing more than a silly theory thought up by a man who never actually worked a day in his life?
Taking the insults part yes. Socialism has never been implemented in large scale
>>74575227
>Socialism implies the workers owning the means of production
That's not the definition of socialism. That's communism.
Socialism means the Government owns the means of production
Brazil
>>74573945
wow you retard really are from lefty/pol/
I thought you were cool on the previous thread reking stormfags
fuck you
soviet union
>>74573945
you fucking stupid cunt not, realizing that we are all living in a socialist system and it is getting worse and worse!!! you stupid cunts fucking Portugal omfg. The only country that actually can safe itself is the USA however, they are fucked just like we are.
>>74576817
>capitalism doesn't create pressure to improve the efficiency and lower the costs of production
>>74573945
The USSR before the NEP.
Not countries, but the Paris Commune and Catalonia were pretty much perfectly socialist.
>>74576739
>Were the hell are you finding this shit?
Take a look at any socialist state (inb4 you start whining that there's no such thing again). People exist for the sole purpose of keeping the system going... Yes, land and machines are means of production. But under socialism, people are nothing more than those machines or that land: Just objects to be exploited for the good of the collective.
>And capitalism is to perish a colective for the sake of a few.
I haven't perished though. Nor did my parents, or my grandparents.. Maybe you're just unlucky to be born in Portugal, anon.
>And they aren't in capitalism. In my point of view, capitalist globals are destroying our homes for the sake of muh economy
Aren't you just mad that you live in a shit state with a shit economy?
>Taking the insults part yes. Socialism has never been implemented in large scale
Because it's just a utopia that doesn't actually work, anon. Do you ever mingle? You know.. Go out, talk to people?
>b-but muh theory by Marx
Forget about it, anon.. It's not going to happen. Just go out and try to have a decent life for yourself and those close to you. Stop living on dreams.
>>74576810
The distinction is moot. It's all the same utopian bullshit...
>>74576977
>The US can save itself
Ehehehehehno. The US is going to have it the worst in the coming decades.... Soon the Tumblr-tier generation will be out of college and into power.
>>74576322
Obama is a capitalist. he is one of the most centrist presidents in your recent history.
>>74576514
That is literally the only dictionary definition of socialism that emcn«ompasses governmental control. American definitions...
Search every other dictionary.
>>74576810
>Socialism means the Government owns the means of production
No that is state capitalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
>>74576977
So do the workers own the means of production?
>>74573945
Stop showing me pics like this. I don't like empathizing with nigger rapists.
>>74577073
>Take a look at any socialist state (inb4 you start whining that there's no such thing again). People exist for the sole purpose of keeping the system going... Yes, land and machines are means of production. But under socialism, people are nothing more than those machines or that land: Just objects to be exploited for the good of the collective.
Stop being a uneducated. I invite you to read just a few lines of this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
>I haven't perished though. Nor did my parents, or my grandparents.. Maybe you're just unlucky to be born in Portugal, anon.
Your country is getting flooded by moroocans and niggers.
>Aren't you just mad that you live in a shit state with a shit economy?
I am talking about refugges and niggers
>Forget about it, anon.. It's not going to happen. Just go out and try to have a decent life for yourself and those close to you. Stop living on dreams.
I'm not socialist
>>74577319
?
>>74577207
>Search every other dictionary.
>YOUR SOURCE IS INCORRECT, FIND THE CORRECT SOURCE THAT MATCHES MY VIEW PLS
ffs. You wave black flags irl, don't you?
>>74577207
>So do the workers own the means of production?
Workers ARE the means of production under capitalism, anon. I don't have to tell you again, do I?
>B-but.. This theory from this b-book says..
>>74577207
>That is literally the only dictionary definition of socialism that emcn«ompasses governmental control. American definitions...
>Search every other dictionary.
ok
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/socialism
>1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
whoops
>>74573945
You are the most autistic poster on /pol/.
you never accept any answer and and you do this several times a day.
in your mind real socialism was never tried, and as far as i see it that argument can span a shit ton of other isms.
im not giving you any countries its like communicating with a bot by now.
>>74577401
>Stop being a uneducated. I invite you to read just a few lines of
>Stop being uneducated. I invite you to read WIKIPEDIA
Oh wew.
>Your country is getting flooded by moroocans and niggers.
And is still more succesful, prosperous, educated and literate than yours... What point are you even trying to make, anon?
>I am talking about refugges and niggers
Kek. And you think socialism will help that? The totalitarian ideology who'se literal slogan is 'proletarians of the world unite'? Really, anon?
>I'm not socialist
Then why are you shilling for it like a 12 year old=
>>74577207
can 'n' trade
obamacare
gun grabbing
obama = literal socialism
>>74577207
This here is just a short list of Socialism
>Health care — Control health care and you control the people.
>Debt — Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. This will allow the government to increase taxes and produce more poverty.
>Media/education — Take control of the media and what children learn in school. Hide your lies and true agenda with side issues like women's birth control rights.
>Class warfare — Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to tax the wealthy with the support of the poor.
AREN'T THESE THINGS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN OUR COUNTRIES TODAY? DO YOU REALIZE THAT EUROPE NEVER WAS ACTUALLY FREE?? We live in a Socialistic system! We've never been free, The only free country was the USA however, they've lost their liberty long time ago and they are also turning into a socialistic state. Socialism is part of the New World Order and we are getting closer and closer. You need to start reading more books,
>>74577721
>PLS BELIEVE ME, YOU ARE ALL AS UNFREE AS WE ARE
No.. No we're not, Fritz.. You're starting to sound like a Brit now. Never ever for a moment forget that you've got it MUCH MUCH worse than most other European countries.
>>74574484
>venezuela is capitalist
>>74573945
United States of America, spending 50%+ of GDP annually.
>>74577415
>>74577433
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_socialism
>>74573945
Austria
Capitalist system with socialist properties
Greece
>>74577920
>Wiki links
Ok, anon. Why do you like socialism so much?
>>74577415
>Workers ARE the means of production under capitalism
Where are you getting this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production
>>74577488
>you never accept any answer and and you do this several times a day.
I do. I think there was actual socialist societies presented in here.
>>74577655
>>Stop being uneducated. I invite you to read WIKIPEDIA
Refute any of the sources wiki has. I dare you.
>And is still more succesful, prosperous, educated and literate than yours... What point are you even trying to make, anon?
It won't be for long. Your children will grow up surrounded by ghettos and niggers just because you wanted a fancy iphone´
>Then why are you shilling for it like a 12 year old=
I'm not shilling, kek. I'm just asking for /pol/ to name me a socialist country.
>>74573945
Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics
"State capitalism" is a no true Scotsman cop out used by intellectually bankrupt leftists like you to sweep the first nation to adopt a Marxist government under the rug.
>>74577920
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
>Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production,
>Social ownership may refer to public ownership, cooperative ownership, citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.[9] Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[10] social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms.[5][11][12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_ownership
>State ownership (also called public ownership and government ownership) refers to property interests that are vested in the state or a public body representing a community as opposed to an individual or private party.[
>>74577822
lol do you really think your country is much different than Germany? Bro we are already united in the European Union , Nato and United Nations. Dude we are all being fooled by the very same people. There is no difference between our countries. Pretty much same political system same health care system , Same school system, everything but the language is same. We are all in this together
>>74577721
We live in a capitalist system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
See if your country doesn't fullfill every one of this.
>The only free country was the USA
kek, how is your deployment going?
>>74573945
>dailly socialist obfuscation thread
ebic XDDD
>>74577841
Private property exists in Venezuela, capital accumulation exists in Venezuela. The means of production are in private hands.
So in what way is Venezuela not capitalistic?
>>74573945
>my exact, perfect form of Socialism has never been tried before
>>74578227
>Where are you getting this?
Simple fact, anon. 1+1 type shit.
>Refute any of the sources wiki has. I dare you.
>Refute my shitty source's sources
Is this what Portugese schools teach? I think I'm starting to understand why you're such a bitter being, anon...
>It won't be for long. Your children will grow up surrounded by ghettos and niggers just because you wanted a fancy iphone´
What do you base this on, anon?
>I'm just asking for /pol/ to name me a socialist country.
Only to then deny that there is such a thing? Seems like something a 12 year old would do, to be honest...
>>74577488
this saved me the trouble, thanks flag
>>74578022
What socialist properties?
>>74578088
In what way?
>>74578177
Refute the sources wiki has. You know, those ugly things in the bottom? Those numbers inside [] you have to delete when you copy paste for school works?
>>74578360
>posting a wikipedia list of countries that are apparently part of the real "capitalism"
Wow Pablo I assume you also get your news from BBC and CNN, Nice at least now I know who I'm dealing with, A FUCKING RETARD
>Not a socialist
>>74578608
>In what way?
in every fucking way
we have a left wing radical party in charge right now
>>74578481
so they are socialist with few capitalist elements. Its not black and white faggot, there are degrees of socialism
>>74573945
What is the purpose of your threads? You did this one yesterday as well. Is it to say that socialism has never been actually tried or is it a troll thread to be difficult?
>>74573945
Have I been summoned?
>>74573945
>"real socialism has never been tried" meme
This is my favorite leftist meme.
>>74578252
And North Korea is a democratic republic...
>>74578298
>public body representing a community as opposed to an individual or private party.[
You could easily argue that the state doesn't represent the community. My state does not represent our people in many ways.
>>74578539
Not mine. Socialism in large sclae has never been fully implemented
>>74578331
>lol do you really think your country is much different than Germany?
We're very similar, except you have it worse in some ways.
>Bro we are already united in the European Union , Nato and United Nations.
I'm not your bro... But yes, we are.
>Dude we are all being fooled by the very same people.
Not your dude either. Also not being fooled here, anon.
>There is no difference between our countries.
Keep telling yourself that.
>Pretty much same political system
Oh really. I never realised we were a federalised secular republic.. How peculiar.
>same health care system
Not too familiar with the German health care system, but I somehow doubt it. Do you have free healthcare?
>Same school system,
We don't. Mainly because hour institutes for higher education actually value the English language...
>everything but the language is same.
I'd say the language is actually one of the most similar things...
>We are all in this together
Again: You sound like a Brit trying to convince himself that almost everybody has got it as bad as they do... You'd do well to realise that it's not true, and to try and change that.
>>74576817
I think they have the two images mixed up...
>>74578608
>Refute the sources wiki has. You know, those ugly things in the bottom? Those numbers inside [] you have to delete when you copy paste for school works?
Is this actually what Portugese people think passes for a 'debate' ?
>>74573945
>socialism is black and white
L O L
>>74578801
>hour
*our
Such ironing
>>74578797
Ahh but North Korea was not the first state to establish itself as a democracy, pioneering the concept for generations to come!
The Soviet Union was.
If your definition of socialism differs from that of the Bolsheviks of Russia, it is your definition that is wrong.
>>74578773
>>74578676
this guy comes on here everyday, asks the same question, diverts every problem arisen from implementing socialism as capitalism's fault, and deflects any questions like "well what is real socialism?" as not an argument
either this guy allegedly thinks that it has never been tried - without any explanation or reasoning for it to be implemented
that, or he is an ironic shitposter
>>74578797
>State ownership (also called public ownership and government ownership)
What do you think "government ownership" means?
>>74578572
>Simple fact, anon. 1+1 type shit.
So muh feels? Ok.
>What do you base this on, anon?
current 3rd world immigration does not show signs to slow down. And birth rates
>Only to then deny that there is such a thing? Seems like something a 12 year old would do, to be honest...
I'm only correcting them
>>74578610
Neither, i don't watch TV anymore. Only a movie from time to time
>>74578674
A country is either socialist or capitalist. There is inbetween, yes, but it's not very honest to call inbetween either. I do not call a system socialist if the means of production are not in the workers hands, nor i would call a system capitalist if private property is not allowed.
>>74578676
Very sim ple. Name me a socialist country
OP, please provide your definition of "socialism." You said it yesterday, and it sounded pretty much identical to communism.
>>74573945
She deserves rape.
>>74578920
I'm not debating you, i'm being vitriolitic. You are too dumb to understand. So i'm using you to get the thread bumped so better people come
>>74578993
Where did i imply this?
>>74579077
He is a portuguese leftist, that's all. Even our so called "right-wingers" are leftists.
Just drop a bomb on us already. Shit's fucked.
How can socialism be achieved?
Answer this.
If so many countries and people have tried but always failed, how can it be ever achieved.
>>74579111
>So muh feels? Ok.
No, simple observation. Like I said, look at any socialist state (yes, yes sweetie.. I know you think they don't exist. but your sources lied to you), and observe how the system treats human labour like a simple resource to be consumed.
>current 3rd world immigration does not show signs to slow down. And birth rates
Something tells me you know very little about the past, present and future of immigration in the Netherlands, anon.
>I'm only correcting them
So you're deliberately asking a question you personally believe has no right answer, only to call people that humor you by answering your question out on 'ignorance' ? How exactly is that not typical of 12 year olds?
>>74573945
This topic has been discussed so many times. It always has the same answer that the OP won't accept because the OP is delusional. The fact of the matter is that """true socialism""" just doesn't work. It always devolves to someone or a small group of people controlling all, and it's often fails.
For all intents and purposes, socialist countries do exist/has existed but will/have always devolved into authoritarianism/totalitarianism because that's the real/final form of socialism. Covering your ears and going "LALALA" like a bunch of dumb Plebbitors doesn't change the fact that socialist countries, the way you envision it, will never be. So stop moving goalposts and let this thread die like socialist governments are supposed to, because that's the inevitable outcome of socialism.
>>74577193
>Ehehehehehno. The US is going to have it the worst in the coming decades.... Soon the Tumblr-tier generation will be out of college and into power.
tumblrites are already in power in Europe though
>>74579481
>tumblrites are already in power in Europe though
Nope... We don't even have 'safe spaces' in Universities, much less the SJW-idiocy your mainstream media are peddling these days...
>>74575227
In Cuba you don't get paid in exchangeable Cuba paso CUC (which tourists get to use) you get paid in non exchangeable money CUP, that you can buy foodstuffs and oil with at the goverment stores stores.
People get paid something like 30 CUP a month for most jobs, highly skill people such as doctors might get 60. For life, no rasies. each to his means.
Cuba has a planned economy dominated by state-run enterprises. Most industries are owned and operated by the government and most of the labor force is employed by the state.
Housing and transportation costs are controlled (mostly). Cubans receive free education, health care and food subsidies
that is pretty much socialism.
-
It aslo has all the problems of socialism, corruption, slow econ growt. no real credit access or financial industry for investment
>>74575832
if everyone works for the state, doesn't it amount to the same?
>>74579355
you can have some nukes portugal, but you have to use all of them - no selling them to spain, they will sell them to the shitskins
just make sure to lock up when you're done
>>74578801
I know you are shitposting but I'll bite anyway.
Dude we are all being fooled by the very same people.
>Not your dude either. Also not being fooled here, anon.
Not being fooled ?? lol do you even leave your house anon?
>The Netherlands has got a central bank which is known as the De Nederlandsche Bank. That Bank was establish by the very same people that established the central bank of Germany. Today this is even more obvious as we are both members of the European Central Bank. They print our money , they pretty much control our economy , our debts are raising pretty much at the very same pace as our interest go up. How can you not realize that we are in this together? Sure Germany has got some intern problems that aren't related to Holland but those are small issues. We are facing the same problems when it comes to a major political issues.
>>74579111
>>>74576054
Venezuela is threatening to """"seize the means of production"""" in the country since they are close to rebellion. would that make them the socialist paradise you are looking for?
>>74573945
You're the autistic Obama leaf shill under a different proxy, amirite?
daily socialism never happened thread
>>74577207
it's the same thing when everyone is the state and there is no private goods or service or life.
The problem is when everyone is the state no one is the state.
>>74579839
The EU a shit, yes. But at least the Netherlands has honest to god Eurocritical parties.. What does Germany have in that aspect? Same thing when it comes to refugees, immigration in general not to mention free speech, especially for 'unpopular' opinions. The Netherlands is completely different from Germany in that sense... Not even getting into the fact that we're a centralized state with a Monarch that literally declares our laws by the grace of God.
Again: I know we're similar. But we're not the same, and we're not nearly as fucked as Germany is... We don't quite hate freedom yet, like we're starting to see in Sweden and the UK..... Maybe some day, but not quite yet.
Also, you made me curious abuot your healthcare. Is it free, or not?
>>74579055
Literally not an argument. A state can call itself whatever it wants. It does not make it true.
>>74579082
When things are owned by government.
>>74579132
When the workers own the means of production. It's literally a cental part of marxist ideology.
>>74579182
She is a single mother. A ukie. Image search can find her.
>>74579355
I'm no even a leftist. But whatever makes you happy.
>>74579393
>How can socialism be achieved?
Not the point of this thread. Nor am i a socialist, nor do i care about it.
>If so many countries and people have tried
Somewhat debateble. After Stalin took power, USSR no longer attempted to convert to socialism.
>>74579452
>No, simple observation.
Observation of what?
> believe has no right answer
There is one poster that posted 2 different systems that could be considered socialist.
>>74579458
>This topic has been discussed so many times.
Yet 90% does not even have a clue what socialism is
>>74579481
Not in my country
>>74579635
Not it's not. Workers do not own the means of production. They are slaves to the state
>>74579710
Well, if the state actually represented the people, yes. But we all know what really happened in USSR/China...
>>74579819
>implying my country has the ability to deliver tose nukes to enemy targets
Only if they can be delivered in the back of a White Ford Transit, or a tractor
>>74579910
No because the state owning the means of production is not the same as the workers owning the means of production. History shows us it can be even worse
>>74579971
That guy was based. BTFO those RNC sponsored retards with facts. Has he been active lately?
>>74580086
did it? I'm not saying it did not happened, only asking if /pol/ can name them
>>74580221
>muh parties
Different sides of the same coin. All the same.
>>74580274
>Not it's not. Workers do not own the means of production. They are slaves to the state
>Well, if the state actually represented the people, yes. But we all know what really happened in USSR/China...
cuba has an elected government, and has had for a long while, deal with it.
>>74580274
>Observation of what?
Of people turned into insects under a totalitarian regime that savors the collective... You know, like socialism.
>There is one poster that posted 2 different systems that could be considered socialist.
>Muh communes and city-states
There's a reason it doesn't work on larger scale: People don't actually value the collective higher than the individual, especially if the vast majority of the collective are people they don't know and will likely never meet. If the area is much larger than a city, it'll never work, and even in those small-scale scenarios it's more like a tribal commune or a sort of very large family-type relationship between people than an actual political system facilitating all of those things... People are social. We like it when the people around us are doing well, and we want them to do well. We might even sacrifice some of our own individual wealth/time/effort to help those people along... That doesn't mean socialism can work though, because under socialism you don't know the people you're supposed to help, and the collective is just a faceless blob that would crush you like an insect if it would better the lot of them.
>Not it's not. Workers do not own the means of production. They are slaves to the state
Slaves to the collective, you mean. Welcome to socialist utopia, comrade...
>>74580527
>muh elections
Even if they are not phony elections, when you voted for Bush did you voted for Iraq war? Did you voted for the flooding of Mexicans? And not to mention the fact that politicians virtually never follow trough with campaign promises?
>>74573945
Yugoslavia again, dont blame me if you cant read the books, read the wiki
>>74580346
>Different sides of the same coin. All the same.
Do you even know any Dutch political parties, honestly? Without resorting to your precious wiki?
>>74579910
lol "Redguards", I guess the next Communist MP will be named "Argonians" am I riteee?
>>74579111
there are degrees of socialism, and Venezuela is on the bottom of the barrel
>>74580221
Keep telling yourself that you are different and that you are safe. I've been to Amsterdam , it is a beautiful city , however it had more black people than Berlin. You've got a shit load of Turks as well. Your country is going downhill and your " Monarch" ain't doing shit about that.
Yes our healthcare system is free, everybody got one. WHICH IS A PROBELM! BECAUSE THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT A SOCIALIMS COUNTRY DOES.
>>74580749
>weeeeh, they don't ask for my opinion about literally EVERYTHING before doing it
Kek.. I'm starting to actually believe you're 12 now..
/thread
>>74579910
>pic
>because Westrn media told me that commi kill inocent m'kay?
Oh you brainwashed scum...
>>74580747
>totalitarian regime
HAs nothing to do with wether a state is capitalistic or not.
>socialism.
Find me the link that socialism equates to totalianarism.
>>74580820
Same croatian. You already know why i make this threads.
>>74580823
No, but it doesn't take a genious to know they are all the same. You will come to that conclusion when you grow up.
>>74580823
PVV. Geert ftw.
>it's a "debate me on semantic bullshit" thread
>it's a "lefty/pol/ is a retarded autist" thread
>>74573945
man I bet she has a huge penis
>>74580870
Economic freedom != socialism.
Those regimes are probably all capitalist, but some possess a higher deggre of state intervention.
And i don't even know what those rankings are based off
>THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT A SOCIALIMS COUNTRY DOES.
No. Welfare is a capitalistic thing. I'm pretty sre welfare does not exist in socialism.
>>74580948
>Keep telling yourself that you are different
We are.
>and that you are safe.
I didn't say that, Fritz. Way to make assumptions.
>I've been to Amsterdam , it is a beautiful city ,
Most people don't think so.
>however it had more black people than Berlin.
No shit. We've had colonies, unlike you, and Amsterdam happens to be THE place in the Netherlands where most of the colonials that came here settled.
>You've got a shit load of Turks as well.
Ehehe, quite funny, coming from you.
>Your country is going downhill and your " Monarch" ain't doing shit about that.
Again: Why don't you just focus on bettering your own country, rather than trying to convince yourself (or whoever) that it's all equally shit everywhere?
>>74580974
So you believe the Dutch government represents your people?
>>74581106
Well, i presented a very clear definition of socialism.
>>74581107
Nah, she is a famous instagram whore.
>>74580274
Carnation Revolution happened in 1974
Just because your country turned third world after that doesn't mean the tumblrians weren't in power there
>>74580948
>Yes our healthcare system is free, everybody got one. WHICH IS A PROBELM! BECAUSE THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT A SOCIALIMS COUNTRY DOES.
Oh, forgot to go into this. Ours is not free... Because providing free healthcare is retarded. Yet another point on which you were wrong about our countries being the same... Are you starting to see that I"m not actually shitposting (or not entirely anyway), but that you're just assuming a lot of things?
>>74580993
>HAs nothing to do with wether a state is capitalistic or not.
That's why I added 'that favors the collective', anon. Though the typo might have confused you..
>Find me the link that socialism equates to totalianarism.
You cannot get rid of individualism without totalitarian tendencies, anon.. That's the whole point I've been making this entire thread.
>>74580993
>No, but it doesn't take a genious to know they are all the same. You will come to that conclusion when you grow up.
>I literally and admittedly don't know what I am talking about, but I assume I am right and that grownups will reach the same conclusion..
Still going with my '12' hypothesis, anon.
>>74581173
>Why don't you just focus on bettering your own country, rather than trying to convince yourself (or whoever) that it's all equally shit everywhere?
Because we are facing the same "enemy" due you must be very young and very stupid as well. If you got anything to say then join my Teamspeak server: tea.li otherwise be quiet and pick up some books.
>>74581173
Dutch didn't had african colonies. Only a few tiny islands o the caribean
Germany had colonies. And some big ones
>>74581172
economic freedom index is not welfare. Its how free the markets are and how many state ownership there is, which is what is the main difference between socialism and capitalism
>>74578481
>private property exists in venezuela
Okay fuck the rest of the thread, this is enough to know that you are a complete retard. Socialism allows private property, communism is the one that doesn't. You don't even fucking know what socialism is.
>>74580995
Did you have to google the name of his party, or is he known in Turkey these days? Of ben je gewoon bij je oma op bezoek?
>>74581313
>So you believe the Dutch government represents your people?
The government? Fuck no. That's not what governments are for.. We have parliament for that.
>>74579576
Look as a simple matter of policy "let all da refugees in" is far more tumblr than anything the USA has, and we have a nigger muslim marxist for president.
So yes, you have the tumblrites in power. This is also ignoring that your women are so leftist that in France alone there are 300,000 abortions to hwhite women there each year- there are 300,000 abortions to white American women each year also.
Your population is in decline because you are tumblr.
>>74581380
>Carnation Revolution
The name is so ugly in English...
>your country turned third world after that
On the contrary, my country reached europe levels only after that. But by seing the current state of affairs, going back would not be a very bad idea.
>>74573945
Burkina Faso under Thomas Sankara before it was destroyed by a French-backed coup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF-otRbvvUc
>>74581493
Nah, have Dutch friends :P Trolled them once by saying I voted for pvv, got mad at me...
>>74581420
>Because we are facing the same "enemy" due you must be very young and very stupid as well.
Globalism? The EU? The Jews?
>>74581429
>Dutch didn't had african colonies.
'No'
>Only a few tiny islands o the caribean
You mean the territories that are still part of the Kingdom to this day? Ehehehe... Don't they teach you about the one we took from you in your history lessons?
>>74580749
>it's not socialism unless every decision is voted for by everyone
and then after they start doing that you say
>butt butt they had to pick from the choices presented, it's not socialism unless everyone everywhere gets to suggest economic policy and everyone everywhere gets to vote on every suggestion.
>>74581493
He is also Eurosceptic, as far as I know.
>>74581387
>that favors the collective
And you actually think it favored the common Russian worker?
>You cannot get rid of individualism without totalitarian tendencies
yes you can, it's called not being a special snowflake faggot. I do it with my family and my friends. And in what way does socialism prevents and opposes individualism?
>>74581313
>Well, i presented a very clear definition of socialism.
The distinction between your socialism and the generally agreed upon definition of socialism is arbitrary. They both are shitty.
>>74581510
>Look as a simple matter of policy "let all da refugees in" is far more tumblr than anything the USA has, and we have a nigger muslim marxist for president.
What country besides Germany has that policy, in your professional American opinion?
>So yes, you have the tumblrites in power. This is also ignoring that your women are so leftist that in France alone there are 300,000 abortions to hwhite women there each year- there are 300,000 abortions to white American women each year also.
Who fucking cares about abortions, honestly? Also I don't seem to remember ever having lived in France...
>Your population is in decline because you are tumblr.
No, our population is in decline because having 8 children like the generations of our grandparents is a fucking drag, and only an imbecile would voluntarity commit to that.
>>74581689
>got mad at me
How long ago? These days they're the biggest party in the polls, and only the most hardcore oldschool literal Maoist leftists still get angry at PVV voters.
>>74573945
I'm beginning to think Portugal is the best poster on this board. People need to understand that anarchism, socialism and libertarianism can coexist.
>>74581770
>He is also Eurosceptic
That's putting it very mildly.
>>74581774
>And you actually think it favored the common Russian worker?
No. It favored the collective... Are you really going to make me repeat myself all the time, anon?
>yes you can, it's called not being a special snowflake faggot. I do it with my family and my friends.
Like I said: In a tribal or family like setting a communal type of living might work.. Not for a nation state though.
>And in what way does socialism prevents and opposes individualism?
It favors the collective above the individual, as I've said countess times already.
>>74573945
Go home, Catarina, you're drunk.
>>74581420
What is the enemy?
>>74581450
Sorry, i forgot to link another post. That part was not meant to you.´
>>74581510
In what way is Obama Marxist?
>>74581915
Not very recent... I don't judge, I would vote for him if I were a Dutch, his ideologies would make sense to Dutch ppl. On the other hand, he looks a little way too hateful.
>>74580985
I've heard that plenty of Russians actually see with good eyes Lenin and Stalin and the USSR in general.
Have I been fooled and if not do you know why by any chance, my ruski friend?
>>74581734
they wrre basically useless after spices could be planted in other colonies
>>74581741
I was just making the point that You can't say that the workers own the means of production when the state owns them, because the state doesn't really represent the workers, so the state is just another "ploy for the burgoise to exploit the worker". But you guys are so stupid.
>>74582271
I don't vote for him.. Mostly because his party largely consists in retards, and because he's more about shocking people than coming up with actual policy. He'd much rather make outrageous suggestions to get headlines ('kopvoddentaks' was a good example. roughly translates as 'head rag tax', which was his proposed tax on head scarves... An idea which was pointless and unfeasable, and wholely indended to get media attention. That's his thing, rather than trying to ACTUALLY make a difference).
>>74582410
>they wrre basically useless after spices could be planted in other colonies
So useless it made us basically the richest country in Europe for a century, aye?
>>74581859
The workers owning the means of production is the core central part of marxism. It's not some arbitrary technicality.
>>74581943
>I'm beginning to think Portugal is the best poster on this board.
Poe's Law.
>>74582574
>The workers owning the means of production is the core central part of marxism. It's not some arbitrary technicality.
Workers ARE the means of production, Alberto... When are you going to remember?
Reminder never to respond to poverty-Paco threads. Unless of course you're a fan of inarticulate spic babbling.
>>74582095
> It favored the collective
Did it?
>It favors the collective above the individual, as I've said countess times already.
And tell me what is exactly wrong with it, even if it is true.
>>74582112
Achas que eu votei nesses gajos? Votei em Branco.
>>74582703
>And tell me what is exactly wrong with it, even if it is true.
It turns human beings into means of production, instead of individuals with inherent value... How are you still not getting my view on this?
>>74582304
Comparing USSR with Modern Russia, i think USSR was much better.
>So useless it made us basically the richest country in Europe for a century, aye?
What century? And are you proud that your forefathers had to travel the whole world to fight so that some rich cunt/king could make a fortune?
>>74582655
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production
It's literally in the first line
>>74582812
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production
Are you sure you are not a american?
>>74582679
What anime are you currently watching?
>>74582926
>What century?
Same one we kicked you out, anon. We did alright after that as well, but we call that period the Golden Age for a reason...
>And are you proud that your forefathers had to travel the whole world to fight so that some rich cunt/king could make a fortune?
Ehehehe, you really don't know much about the Netherlands's colonial history, do you? It's getting embarassing now..
>King
>mfw
>>74583004
i like you for some reason
>>74583004
>Are you sure you are not a american?
Coming from the one that keeps linking Wiki to try and get his point across, and doesn't seem to have a very firm grasp on geography and history. I don't know m8... You tell me.. You seem to have all the answers.
>>74582679
>Portugese
>Spic
You know those times when you're not sure if you're being memed by an American, or if the American actually is a meme?
>It's a "NEVUR BEEN TRYED!" thread
>>74583086
Poe's law, buddy.
>>74583129
Like i said, refute the wiki sources.
>>74583066
So who fought in the colonies? And who fought agaisnt other colonial powers?
>King
>fight so that some rich cunt/king
i put the "/" as a way that meant that you forefathers fought for a rich cunt, a king, or a rich cunt and a king. When we wrote x/y (or x\y) it means either x, either y, or both. For example "He/she" ...
>>74583249
Shut up spic, no one likes you smelly dumb beaner scum.
>>74576054
Do you have more of those? Was there a leak somewhere?
>>74583249
Are you honestly implying that the progenitors of spics aren't spics, Abdul?
>>74583249
Even doe he is a ancap faggot, he is not that stupid. And we could argue it's true, because spic is a short for hispanic, and Portuguese and Spanish live in a ancient province of Roman Empire named Hispania
>>74583449
>Like i said, refute the wiki sources.
No, anon. This whole discussion is moot anyway...
>>74583449
>So who fought in the colonies? And who fought agaisnt other colonial powers?
A private enterprise. More or less.
>i put the "/" as a way that meant that you forefathers fought for a rich cunt, a king, or a rich cunt and a king. When we wrote x/y (or x\y) it means either x, either y, or both. For example "He/she" ...
And I put it to you that you don't have a clue what you're talking about..
>>74583476
Ok, José..
>>74582574
You are spreading truths about socialism. I find that valuable, regardless of intent.
>>74583449
>poe's law
no im not a commie
>>74583530
Are you honestly implying that the Portugese are Hispanic?
>>74583566
>he is not that stupid
But that's what I doubt.
>because spic is a short for hispanic, and Portuguese and Spanish live in a ancient province of Roman Empire named Hispania
You´re taking it MUCH further than the US census and dictionairy definitions do m8..
>>74583867
WHAT IS THE IBERIAN PENINSULA?
Don't you have a goat to fuck Abdul?
Announcing sage - peace.
>>74583723
Hey don't look at me spiculese, just because you are hiding behind a proxy to fool everyone onto thinking you are white, won't ever make that fantasy come true.
>>74583979
>nation in iberia
>automatic spic
suicide you retard
Shouldn't the fact that there's never been a "pure" socialist country prove that it doesn't work? How is this even an argument?
>>74574484
>capitalist
>"chavismo is 21st century socialism!"
Your bullshit socialism has never been truly attempted excuse can only go on for much longer.
I've never met a cuban in my 20 years of living in south florida that yearned to go back to communist cuba.
>>74584075
Shut up you spic enabler.
>>74573945
The united states of america.
>>74583979
>WHAT IS THE IBERIAN PENINSULA?
A slab of land that has little to nothing to do with the common US definition of ´hispanic´ or ´spic´, anon.
>>74584010
>Americans thinking they know the first thing about being 'white'
>White – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.
>source: US Census
ehehehhehehehe
Monkeyland.
>>74573945
Norway is pretty socailistic
>>74575700
the Netherlands has privately owned businesses.
>>74584367
>socialistic
Did you just make this up?
>>74584552
Nordic countries are socialists countries...
>>74584396
>>74584552
Probably a confusion in translation. Socialist is 'socialistisch' in Dutch, and typically the 'isch' suffix turns into 'ic' in English. Probably something similar with Norwegian..
>>74584679
Social programs bought with excessive taxes on private property =/= socialism. It's just reaping the rewards of being 90+% white.
The reason pure socialism has never been tried is because it's just mental masturbation for academics.
The vast majority of normal people won't get behind it.
>>74584367
>>74584679
Social democracy is not socialism.
>>74584075
>>74584204
Die Amerikan troll is obvious troll... :I
>>74583733
Thank you bro. I'm not even socialist. I just find very bad the way most people here talk about socialism
>>74583780
Neither am i
>>74583867
>You´re taking it MUCH further than the US census and dictionairy definitions do m8..
>American are the owners f definitions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic
>>74584982
My bad, good to know.
>>74576739
haha wat the fuck is that gay ass picture lol im dying nigger, did you just screencap yourself misdirecting the question? hahahahaha
typical leftist retard. Jesus, you can't even answer simple questions
>>74585098
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic
>The term Hispanic (Spanish: hispano, hispánico, Galician: hispánico, Asturian: hispanu, Basque: hispaniar, Catalan: hispà,[1][2] hispàno[3]) broadly refers to the people, nations, and cultures that have a historical link to Spain.
K.
>>74584191
I'm not socialist
Cuba is capitalist
>>74584353
> common US definition of ´hispanic´ or ´spic´
And what do the US definitions have to do outside of US?
Iberians are still hispanics in US census, iirc
>>74584974
Because they don't even now what it is
>>74573945
Reading through the thread it seems that you use specifically a marxist (not sure if you're a trotskyist or some other type of memeunism) definition of socialism/communism, this is not the only form of socialism/communism, I suggest you rephrase the question, as the soviet union would be a socialist state if you go by Marxist Leninist ideals.
Also you cant bump your own thread.
>>74585198
No, i did not.
>>74585242
>And what do the US definitions have to do outside of US?
He was an American, anon. Americans tend to abide by American definitions.
>Iberians are still hispanics in US census, iirc
US census definitions tend to be hilariously broad, and Hispanic is no exception, but Portugal or Portugese are not mentioned. It's a Spanish language/identity thing mostly.
>>74585345
They know it's shit.
>>74585386
So a system that the workers do not own the means of production can be called socialist?
A system that the capitalists can't accumulate capital can be called capitalist?
>Also you cant bump your own thread.
Yes we can. And i did
Vietnam!
They were handing out Coca-Cola less than 5 hours after we left...
>>74576739
That pic isn't really an argument, it swerves around the argument while insulting libertarians, the poster mightn't have even been a libertarian.
>>74585542
>It's a Spanish language/identity thing mostly.
Forgot to paste:
>People who identify with the terms “Hispanic” or “Latino” are those who classify themselves in one of the specific Hispanic or Latino categories listed on the decennial census questionnaire and various Census Bureau survey questionnaires – “Mexican, Mexican Am., Chicano” or ”Puerto Rican” or “Cuban” – as well as those who indicate that they are “another Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin." Origin can be viewed as the heritage, nationality group, lineage, or country of birth of the person or the person’s ancestors before their arrival in the United States. People who identify their origin as Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish may be of any race.
I suppose Latino might count. But that's an even weirder and broader term..
>>74576739
>That pic
>Let me draw attention away from the leader of my shitty fairy tale economic doctrine by bringing up the faults of another shitty fairy tale economic doctrine
>>74585345
People don't understand how it will work. If your perfect system isn't easily understood by normal people then it's never going to work.
>>74585542
How do they know it's shit, if they do not know what it is?
It seems to me plain ignorqance and brainwashing
>>74585596
So, they were capitalist.
Vietnam communist party was only communist to get help from USSR. Idealogically they were more nationalist then anything.
>>74585646
Of course it's not an argument. I don't intend it to be.
>>74585575
>So a system that the workers do not own the means of production can be called socialist?
No, but there can be other means than trade unions to own the means of production can, just not under Marxist ideology.
>Yes we can. And I did
You can make a post, but if it's your own thread it wont bump.
>>74585759
>If your perfect system isn't easily understood by normal people then it's never going to work.
Explain capitalism to me
>>74585823
>Of course it's not an argument. I don't intend it to be.
Okay, its a fallacious pic.
O fugg have I made the fallacy fallacy.
You point it out if I did.
>>74585843
>You can make a post, but if it's your own thread it wont bump.
It bumps bro. I check the page in wich the thread is, then post the bump, and then i see that the thread moved up a few pages.
>No, but there can be other means than trade unions to own the means of production can, just not under Marxist ideology.
I don't care how the workers own the means, i just care that the workers own.
>>74585926
It's not fallacious because i wasn'y trying to prove anything. That pic is only to make fun of lolbertarians. You don't have to be obtuse.
>>74585823
I agree.
"It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me." - Ho Chi Minh
Still, Vietnam is an awesome place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9994nv8BcU
Question for OP, genuinely curious here.
Can socialism be nationalist (I'm not talking about nazism here, nor am I attempting to shift you or the conversation to it) or would that be counter to the interests of the workers.
The idea of trade unions owning the means of production appeals to me, but I am a staunch nationalist.
Also for my fellow potato nigs, I'm not one of the "up the ra lads" types, if you support the ra you're a cunt, outright, no discussion.
>>74586109
It probably still his a shithole, i don't actually know about it. But we must admire them for vietnam war. Some peasants beated up the superpower taht was assisted by half the world.
>>74586100
But there's no proof that the poster was even libertarian. It makes lefty /pol/ look retarded and delusional for blatently dodging the question
>>74586100
>It bumps bro. I check the page in wich the thread is, then post the bump, and then i see that the thread moved up a few pages.
Noice.
>I don't care how the workers own the means, i just care that the workers own.
So if the state owns them on behalf of the workers does it count in your eyes, or at least by definition?
The pic still avoids the question at hand, which is my source of contempt for it.
>>74585823
What are your thoughts on the Mondragon Corporation? It's not a country, of course, but it is very successful, as reflected in the relative health of the Basque Country today.
I also want to point out that, just as it was when capitalism was emerging, possible instances of socialist countries have been destroyed before they had time to truly form (1936 Spain).
I believe that socialism, like capitalism, will start locally (worker coops, like Mondragon) before growing in scale to syndicates encompassing a nation.
>>74577721
Hans here know what's up. (srs)
>>74586222
I don't really dwelve around in socialist ideas. I know next to nothing about socialism. There are better people here to answer that question.
>Can socialism be nationalist
probably
>>74586280
It wasn't me that made the cpy pasta. Its actually quite common around here.
>So if the state owns them on behalf of the workers does it count in your eyes
I guess if the state represented the workers interests, and respected the workers interest, then maybe it could be considered.
>>74586468
>What are your thoughts on the Mondragon Corporation?
Never heard of it until now
>>74586468
>possible instances of socialist countries have been destroyed before they had time to truly form (1936 Spain).
Republican Spain was the biggest shit ever created
>>74573945
I know the answer to this!!
>there are no socialist countries
>countries that call themselves socialist are actually capitalists no matter what they say
>capitalists are big meanies
>socialism is an eternal good
>you are right from the start and everyone else is wrong and stupid
>it's only a matter of time before they see your light
Where's my A+??????
>>74574484
>>74575227
Oh shit, it's one of these faggots agian baiting us so he can flood us with his autism.
>>74586913
>it's actually quite common around here
That's the problem
>>74586250
I admire them for the fight, but in no way did they beat up the American army. Look at the death tolls bru.
>>74587022
>capitalists are big meanies
>socialism is an eternal good
Never said this. I am a capitalist still
>Where's my A+??????
pega um 20.
>>74587080
>baiting
What makes you think i am batting? am i interrupting your hugbox?
>>74587089
It's a funny pic
>>74586913
Noice.
>>74587213
>muh death tool!!!!
Shortly after america leaved, North Vietnam quickly seized it's southern conterpart. I'd call it a viet win.
>>74586936
I'm referring to the movement behind the Spanish Revolution of 1936 which lasted 10 months (according to wikipedia) before it was destroyed. I admit I don't know much about it; maybe what I think I know is bullshit. I would like to know more. It seems like a very interesting movement.
>>74586222
Of course you can have nationalism. Socialism is not mutually exclusive from nationalism or libertarianism. You can have strong borders, strong army, strong cultural identity, anti-immigration, whatever you want.
>>74587648
Sounds even noicer.
>socialism is not mutually exclusive with libertarianism
I assume you're reffering to the cancer that is, anarcho communism.
>>74587363
>scoffing at numbers that disprove your claim
the south vietnamese had a fucking joke of an armed force, not to mention the americans only invaded that shithole because of a radar glitch.
>not taking into account that American troops were also strung out on H and other shit while in CZs
>not considering the style of warfare employed by the vietcong is far superior in a dense jungle combat zone
>still getting absolutely raped in the death tolls by a bunch of drugged up teenagers.
>>74573945
Fuck off commie, every time socialism has been tried, it resulted in millions of deaths.
It's incompatible with human nature. Also, how the hell are you against capitalism? It's literally freedom. You get to decide who you work for, who you trade with, who you buy from, without the state telling you what you can or can not buy.
>>74587787
Communism is anarchist by definition, iirc
>>74587915
>You mad
Face it bro. Viets won a massive victory in that war.
>>74588100
Because it wasn't true socialism.
Ence the question :"Name me a socialist country"
>It's incompatible with human nature.
In what way?
the whole strategy of this political religion called communism is setting an unreachable objective so that when they get to power and fail, they'll claim the failure is because that objective was not reached.
>>74578481
Socialism: the state owns the means of productions but those main factories work without profit: that's Venezuela's case.
State capitalism means the government controls the means of production and makes profit of it, increasing the capital of the state. Venezuela doens't increase its capital through its the factories that have been controlled by the government.
The principal social programs in Venezuela are running totally for free. Gran Misión Vivienda Venezuela is the biggest one. This program provides house for families with no house and at this moment, there have been at least 3 million of families that were provided with one house.
Capital accumulation in Venezuela doesn't exist. The factories' owners can't accumulate capitals because of price controls. If you own a factory that is in function, you'll be working for the government since they'll tell you how much you'll win from what you produces when they put the price to your items. You become in a employed of the government that only manages the factory you once owned.
>>74587219
>What makes you think i am batting? am i interrupting your hugbox?
It has nothing to do with a hugbox, I specifically meant communists who try to win the argument by saying that communism will somehow lead to paradise filled with rainbows and unicorns and wave away all criticism that points out how communism being applied to the real world always leads to catastrophe as not really being communism and either claiming that their version of communism will indeed lead to rainbows and unicorns or saying that some completely unrealistic goal has to be obtained before big papa Marx will bestow upon us his gift of eternal rainbows and unicorns or more commonly, a combination of both.
>>74588278
It heads towards anarchism, thats the point of it, but many states have claimed to be communist while being a state, the validity of their claims are debatable.
Why do women like this always wear crosses? Is it for irony?
>>74588278
>You mad
nice one bro beans, excellent discourse.
>>74588398
>Socialism: the state owns the means of productions
Wrong. That is state capitalism, or state socialism.
>Capital accumulation in Venezuela doesn't exist.
Yes they can. I once knew a Venezuelan Family that fleed here and he couldn't bring his assets here.
>>74588488
> I specifically meant communists who try to win the argument by saying that communism will somehow lead to paradise
Communism is utopia , i think. Now the praticability of it is a theme for a huge discussion
>>74588526
They claimed to be working towards a communist society
Daily reminder that George Orwell called his fellow lefties on "x in no socialist/communist/left wing country" nearly a hundred years ago.
Daily reminder they're still saying the same shit now.
>>74574484
>ven government puts price caps on food to "help" the poor afford food better
>farmers and produce makers no longer can make a profit, stop selling their food on the ven market or stop food all together
>line ups grow
and this is capitalism not socialism how?
>>74589177
Because the workers don't own the means of production
>>74589383
How can a country be capitalist by don't profit on its means of productions?
>>74589383
no fucking shit socialism is a chimera for the "vanguard" to take absolute power
always have been, always will be
>>74589383
>the workers don't own the means of production
I'm pretty sure the farmers in the agriculture sector "own the means of production" if they may choose to cease that means of production
>>74573945
Germany 1933-1945
Only difference is they weren't pseudo-communist faggots, they were National Socialists.
SIEG HEIL
>>74589383
Could you expand on this? I've seen it countless times, but I haven't seen it properly defined.
What workers? What factors of production? What would be the difference between socialism vs. cooperatives established in a totally free market?
>>74573945
USA if bernie wins
>>74575227
Socialism: defenition
>: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies
What are you even talking about? Literally nowhere in the definition it says that it's owned by the people.
>>74589383
Do you have any point besides arguing semantics? Just try to convince me why the system of communism would appeal to me as a north-western European lower-middle class guy instead of trying to make a point by telling us what does or doesn't fit your definition of communism/socialism.
>>74589383
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_Communal_Councils
>>74589582
But they do. There is private enterprise in Venezuela
>>74589798
HAHHAHAHAHA. Hitler reached to power with it's anti marxist rhetoric
>>74589862
>What workers?
The workers. The people. I'm by no means a expert in socialism.
>What factors of production?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production
>What would be the difference between socialism vs. cooperatives established in a totally free market?
I don't really know, but possibly that a socialist society could not accumulate capital.
>>74589872
Just like you guys said in 2008
>>74589996
That is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_socialism
Anglos with their constant brainwashed group the two, but the fact is that there can be no socialism withut the wprkers owning the means of production.
>>74590015
I'm not trying to proletyse here. I'm not even a socialist.
But if i had to, i would say that capitalism is flooding our homelands with niggers and shitskins
>>74590981
thnks bro
>>74587787
Libertarianism (no god, no master) rejects vertical power structures, hierarchies. Socialism is workers owning the means of production. Neither are communist because they allow for the ownership of private property.
>>74591089
Ok.
Anyways, pic related is the answer to your question.
>>74591211
I think it's more specifically the Social Democrats that caused us to be flooded with shitskins. It also doesn't help that the most devoted self-proclaimed marxists are Green-Leftists who aren't exactly shy of saying white Europeans have to be obiliterated and replaced.
>>74591636
>Declared themselves
I can declare myself God Emperor of mankind. It doesn't make me one.
>>74591757
No, it was the preasure of capitalism, and it's desire for never ending growth. The shitskins are only in europe because our birth rates are very low.
> It also doesn't help that the most devoted self-proclaimed marxists are Green-Leftists who aren't exactly shy of
Must be a thing of your country. And those are political parties, they are trying to appeal to persons. I don't care for thiose people.
![aj_10_01_grb6buk_s[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/diWc5wK.jpg "aj_10_01_grb6buk_s[1].jpg")
>>74573945
Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
it was rich in resources, had good 3rd world connections and customers for its exports, 20M+ population, it developed really well after WW2 but was multiethnic and grossly mismanaged, later on it took massive denbts and fell apart
if economists called the shots it would've had a chance but then it wouldn't be socialist, would it?
>>74592462
Any good place to learn more about Tito Yugo?
>>74591089
Maybe I asked the wrong questions. Are workers organized in a single cooperative that includes the totality of workers in the country? If so, how are factors of production allocated? What kind of decisions do they take? How would this cooperative (assuming socialism takes this form) allocate steel resources for the production of medical appliances vs. tractors, for example?
>could not accumulate capital.
Why not?
>>74592714
>Are workers organized in a single cooperative that includes the totality of workers in the country?
That is awfuly similar to state.
And like i said, i don't know much about the theory behind socialism. You are asking to the wrong person.
>>74592697
there are loads of resources but I haven't deliberately researched him to point you to any site I could vouch for
he was quite an extraordinary character, an international playboy and a true leader, at least that is how I percieve his life and his work
>>74592905
No offense, but why would you start such a thread and discuss socialism when you admit you don't know about the subject?
>>74581563
Salazar Greatest Portuguese of all time, Estado Novo saved you from WWII
>>74593047
yeah doesn't make much sense, and why are you /leftypol/ if you have nothing to do with socialism
>>74574484
Don't even try. I don't like communism but at least I read fucking Marx, most /pol/ apparently didn't since they can't difference capitalism with socialism. They call everyone a commie.
>>74592161
Most immigrants we are getting now from the Middle-East are unemployable and will only increase taxes while contributing almost nothing, the pressure for taking in socialism doesn't come from business but from ideological left-wingers and the EU, political system dominated by social democrats and other far-left ideologues. Big business might like Eastern-Europeans and supports using them as cheap labour, not shitskins who will cause them to be further taxed into oblivion.
The green-left here also isn't that blatant though like it is in for example Sweden or Germany( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riQh4Qpvxm4 ). Despite that they recently got a Morrocan party leader here in the Netherlands and replaced the Dutch Labour Party as the new immigrant party whose constant message is that you're essentially a horrendous immoral monster if you don't want an unlimited amount of refugees pouring in you nation.
>>74592966
>he was quite an extraordinary character, an international playboy and a true leader, at least that is how I percieve his life and his work
The same impression i have of him.
>>74593047
This thread is not about socialism and it's raticability. It's just to show how /pol/ know so little of what socialism his, even doe they use the words dozens times per day.
>>74593112
>Salazar Greatest Portuguese of all time
Not greatest. But one thing his certain, his intentions were honorable and good, and he was a honest man. He died poor. He was a patriot. He made the Portuguese suffer, truth. That is why he his such a controversial persona in my country
>>74593314
So what is Venezuela?
>>74573945
North Korea.
>>74592161
By the way, you realize that socialism is the same ideology as communism and that the only difference is that socialism is achieved by a democratic revolution?
