Karl Marx is more influential than Jesus.
prove me wrong using world history, /pol/
Unlike Islam and Marxism, Christianity (today) is not a political ideology.
>>73901954
sure it is. you have socialized medicine and college because of christian u.s.a
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUibXSgILv0
>In a sort of way, it is with man as with commodities. Since he comes into the world neither with a looking glass in his hand, nor as a Fichtian philosopher, to whom "I am I" is sufficient, man first sees and recognizes himself in other men. Peter only establishes his own identity as a man by first comparing himself was Paul as a being of like kind. And thereby Paul, just as he stands in his Pauline personality, becomes to Peter the type of the genus homo.
>>73901954
Islamism is a political ideology, not Islam.
>>73902178
>communist
>supporting the palestinians
choose both
why am I not surprised?
>>73901683
Define "influence" in concrete terms.
Good luck~
>>73902548
oh look, the immigrant from europe continues to spew shit about being an immigrant from babylon
>>73902616
the capacity to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of someone or something, or the effect itself.
>>73902498
nice meme
>>73902825
who is from babylon?
>>73902873
Google "concrete term", and then tell me which of those terms you just used is a concrete.
I'll wait~
>>73903028
i like how you dodge the question to imply that words have no meaning. is it because the objective answer is personal?
>>73903150
Are you going to tell me an inherently subjectively determined answer is objective? Is this self-contradiction day?
The implication also isn't that words have no meaning - it's that words that don't denote a concrete are ultimately subjective. Someone else can completely logically maintain "x is more/less influential than y" while another person can maintain the opposite position. I think either one or neither of them are *RIGHT*, but I can't instantiate that as an objective truth to you.
>>73903428
anon, in the OP i asked you to use world history to prove me wrong, not some semantics bullshit. you're just dodging because you're too scared to take a stance.
> Someone else can completely logically maintain "x is more/less influential than y" while another person can maintain the opposite position
no fucking shit. that's why this is a forum where people hash out what they're thinking.
>>73901683
The Catholic Church has remained strong nearly 2000 years. The USSR lasted about 80 before collapsing on itself.
>>73903008
Not sure if the attachment will upload properly but here are some lecture notes from when I studied political Islam.
>>73903593
>semantic bullshit
Except all propositions, including the words you use, are "semantic bullshit". Rule #1 in an argument is clarifying your terms. Rule #1.
LAMO "dodging".
You can share what you're thinking, but you're asking for *PROOF* about a *SUBJECTIVE* claim. That's fucking nonsense. What you count as proof someone else won't, and vice versa. Unless something is a 100% a priori tautology you can't have a fucking objective proof of it you moronic dick-licker.
>>73903812
the USSR was not a revolution of the proletariat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEVOIO4TbZs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3vZNSAi-QM
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ford-signs-agreement-with-soviet-union
>>73901683
Scholasticism was the beacon of western thought from before the collapse of Rome until the modern era. Literally all of it was under the banner of the church and it formed the cornerstone of western thought.
Marx is a thinker who, at best, got mainstream and had an influx of riots caused by supporters for a few decades.
>>73901683
>more influential man in the world
>less influential than meme marx who didn't even had such a good beard as Angels beard
Go away shekelstein
>>73902498
>t.sadiq khan
Captcha Khan
>>73903992
*most
>>73903983
scholasticism was monopolized by the ruling class. the cornerstone of western thought was concentrated in colleges for the wealthy and jesus's teachings were twisted and rendered sterile by colonialism.
what marx had to say about the political relationship of human labor is proved by the mutual aid organisms in nature have with each other when they are not engaged in mutual struggle.
an influx of riots pale in comparison to feudalism, civil wars and foreign occupations claiming to believe in christ without following his teachings.
>>73904266
>scholasticism was monopolized by the ruling class. the cornerstone of western thought was concentrated in colleges for the wealthy and jesus's teachings were twisted and rendered sterile by colonialism.
Scholasticism was centered in monasteries away from the ruling class for the most part. When colleges themselves began to spring up they were enabled by the ruling classes but still maintained and guided by the church.
There was no twisting of Scholasticism via colonialization and the complaint itself is irrelevant. We're not talking about positive influence or correct understanding of its influence but simply influence. You're both wrong and trying to argue a wholly separate point.
What you say of Marx is the same way. It doesn't matter if anything is true nor if its positive influence or anything. We are debating a claim of influence itself. Stay on your own topic.
0/10 Bad faggot troll
Karl Marx's influence has only hurt lives.
Christianity has only helped people.
>>73904917
>christianity has only helped people
>>73904821
>Scholasticism was centered in monasteries away from the ruling class for the most part. When colleges themselves began to spring up they were enabled by the ruling classes but still maintained and guided by the church.
the ruling class had their progeny educated by the keepers of scrolls and antiquities. the control that the catholic church had over fuedal europe is indisputable. you shouldn't lie.
>>73905134
I agree with you but how does that disagree with what I said?
>they were enabled by the ruling classes but still maintained and guided by the church.
Colleges were enabled by the wealthy and their children were brought into that but Scholasticism, as I said, was centered in monasteries for the most part. Where's your issue with me?
>>73905604
well first of all, my issue is that the only way to prove me wrong is by saying that the actions of a church that censored jesus's teachings and thus christianity is the primary way that jesus was influential
secondly your dismissal of colonialization by people claiming to be christian is how you're shifting goalposts. jesus said "live by the sword die by the sword" and "render unto ceasar". theocratic monarchies that invade and occupy is the exact opposite of the christ's teachings. nowhere in the new testament is invading justified or rationalized.
>>73903812
the catholic church and the christ's teachings are not the same thing
>>73905950
Please read Mark 12:17 and pretend for a moment you're reading it as a Christian.
Ask yourself the question "What is not God's?"
>>73906160
baka
is it not the case that there is already plenty of warning in the bible against man's law? it doesn't matter what god's intent is, the bible straight up says it is not up to man to decide what happens on earth according to some imaginary friend they have. if you want a theocracy, start calling for sharia.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/obeying_mans_law
>>73906504
What are you talking about? My implication is that nobody is owed jack shit - everything is God's. Which is exactly what Christ means in Mark 12:17.
Also, everyone *necessarily* "decides" what happens on earth, because all individuals make their own decisions, and those decisions happen *on earth*.
Nobody wants a theocracy among men. That's anti-Biblical.
>>73905950
>my issue is that the only way to prove me wrong is by saying that the actions of a church that censored jesus's teachings and thus christianity is the primary way that jesus was influential
I contend them censoring Jesus' teachings by any means but it should be ridiculously obvious that Christianity is the primary way that Jesus was influential. Christianity itself is only understood by following Christ. Which people grasps them properly is only a sectarian issue. Whether they follow Jesus' teachings properly or not does not change that Jesus himself originally acting is what led to this occurring. That is influence.
>secondly your dismissal of colonialization by people claiming to be christian is how you're shifting goalposts. jesus said "live by the sword die by the sword" and "render unto ceasar". theocratic monarchies that invade and occupy is the exact opposite of the christ's teachings. nowhere in the new testament is invading justified or rationalized.
Mate, I'm not saying shit of colonization besides that it had little to no effect on Scholasticism. That's just you. You grasp influence by judging what changes certain events had on future events. No doubt colonialization would occur without Christianity - the western power and the essentialism in western thought were already there - but what good it does or if it correctly fits Christ's teachings is irrelevant. You look to see if Christ's influence influenced those events, not if those moved by them acted properly within his teaching.
You could argue that Jesus' institution of apostolic authority is proof alone of influence.
>>73906819
>nobody is owed jack shit
>humans don't have rights
this is why Marx is superior to jesus. "do unto others" never really sunk in, egalitarian science based reasoning and tool-making is what we'll always need to survive.
>>73906948
>You could argue that Jesus' institution of apostolic authority is proof alone of influence.
"proof alone of influence over Marx", I mean.
>>73901738
The Bible isn't meant to be taken literally. Jesus spake in Parables. You clearly didn't read Matthew, or any of the Bible, or you would have known this.
>>73907068
>science based reasoning
M8, turn back now. You've become too silly.
>>73907068
Humans don't have rights. Humans have obligations. You're owed *jack shit*.
>>73901683
>Karl Marx's suggestions
>Improving humanity
Exceptional bait.
>>73901738
Not even Christian but God you really can't understand the slightest bit of metaphor can you?
In a giant speech that emphasizes self-denial what do you think "plucking your eye out" means?
>>73901683
There are more Christians than communists in the world
Christianity is invading and taking over China, the last major communist state
>>73906948
> Christianity itself is only understood by following Christ
the parameters of following christ were determined by those who could make money off of it. that's not spiritual influence, it's monetary.
apostolic authority has done nothing to stop colonization and war. you can't say a prophet is influential when the teachings weren't effective enough to stop humanity's lowest conditions from being perpetuated. the prophet in question's dialectic does not address the real problems of humanity
>>73907227
if humans didn't have rights, PTSD wouldn't exist.
>>73907400
china was never communist, it isn't communist now. exploiting the farmers is not a revolution of the proletariat.
there is a difference between dictatorship and dictatorship of the proletariat.
>>73907468
>if humans didn't have rights, PTSD wouldn't exist
>>73907278
>i want to work every day for a pittance and no holidays because workers unions in the industrial age were wrong to demand a wage they could live on
>>73907553
dude, go somewhere and have your rights violated or go to war and see if you're doing just fine afterwards.
>>73907068
>egalitarian science based reasoning
>egalitarian
>science based reasoning
Pick one and ONLY one.
>>73907406
>the parameters of following christ were determined by those who could make money off of it. that's not spiritual influence, it's monetary.
This is shit bait. What the fuck is wrong with you.
>apostolic authority has done nothing to stop colonization and war
That's entirely irrelevant. Don't be stupid. I'm not about to argue how salient his proper teaching is as that's exceedingly hard to parse. I'm going to argue the topic in the OP. I would suggest you keep to your own topic. If you don't want to talk about influence, then don't begin the thread on the topic of influence.
>>73907192
and you've come to a point in your life where you should get the fuck off of the internet if you don't like science.
>>73907540
How can Marx be more influential then if there hasn't been a single country that has ever put his concepts into practice?
>>73907749
>i don't know what the council of nicea is
>you're stupid because christians following the teachings of christ were killed or lied to by the ruling class claiming to be followers of christ
>>73907753
Why don't you use "science" to make him?
>>73907863
wages, work hours, and weekends are regulated in many countries.
government regulations controlling corporations have succeeded in the past, and without enforcing such regulations, our country is shit because the state is subordinate to capitalist bailouts.
>>73907698
>if humans didn't have rights, PTSD wouldn't exist
The gifs I'm posting make infinitely more sense than your "reasoning" above.
>>73908006
because if he was to follow through with being anti-science, he'd realize that it took science to design computers. if anon is an anon of their word, they'll leave on their own.
>>73907125
Jesus never really set up any church. There are only two mentions of him doing so in any records. One in the Gospel of Mathew and one in the Gospel of Thomas. In both Gospels he gives authority to a different person (Peter or James). Both accounts have very little evidense backing it up, although I personally think James has a better claim to the title: whenever Pagan authors write of the Christians he's the only person other than Jesus they think is worth mentioning, he appears in leadership like roles in Paul's letters, and the evidence for Peter being in Rome is zero.
Honestly it depends how you define "Influence". Paul is arguably more influential than Jesus. He wrote half the bible and seeing as how Christianity was a movement composed almost entirly of Gentiles he pretty much made 99% of Christians (including most likely the Gentiles that wrote the other 50% of the bible). His theology is ultimately what won out over James's or Peters.
Since his theology decided what Jesus was allowed to say or not say I'd put him over Jesus in power.
>>73908007
None of that has anything to do with the Marx though silly billy.
>>73908015
>i don't understand basic pschology
>there is no environment that humans can exist where their brain is most functional
>i can do higher mathematics as i'm being tortured
>>73907324
Origen, one of the Church Father took it seriously enough that he castrated himself.
>>73908085
Tell me which "ought" you think comes from an "is".
The whole world will wait for you.
>>73908133
>i have never read Capital Volume 1
yet it is demanded of me to know every single thing said in the bible
>>73908085
He's not bound by the limitations of logic.
You on the other hand are though, as a worshipper of science.
>>73908182
>if humans
>didn't have right
>PTSD
>wouldn't exist
Elaborate. Or maybe not so much.
>>73908223
you seem upset about something
>>73907753
Part of me would like to agree but I'm not about to condemn others for simply being wrong. It is best to help those.
Your issue is that "science-based reasoning" is a pretty unintelligible phrase. Do you mean to espouse positivism? Maybe simply defend empiricism?
>>73907903
I know exactly what the Councils of Nicaea are. Must I remind you that Constantine was the organizer of the event and simply part of the audience when it came to theological discourse? They were proper ecumenical councils. There's literally no evidence for your claim.
>>73907863
Oh shit
>>73908252
It doesn't matter if it's in kapital, Marx didn't invent those things and they didn't happen because of Marx.
>>73908270
>science
>bound by logic
HEHEHE.
>>73908309
if someone violates your rights severely enough and often enough, you'll get PTSD. it's a recordable, measurable effect on someone's brain.
if you are assaulted or abused, especially as a child, your brain changes.
>>73908357
now you're just saying shit. they definitely happened because of marx.
>>73901683
>Implying there is any significant difference between the teachings of the communist Jew Rabbi Yeshua and the communist Jew Karl Marx.
http://web.archive.org/web/20110810174753/http://www.666blacksun.com/Xianity_communism.html
>>73908331
Oh do I? I'll still wait for you to give me an "ought" from an "is". Zutto~
>>73908183
>>73907324
It is hyperbole, not metaphor.
>>73908446
No, I won't. But I have an iron will and am by no means a normal person. I could watch everyone around me die horrid deaths and it wouldn't phase me. You can project your psychological weakness onto others as much as you'd like though~
>>73908349
>censorship is a teaching of christ
let's also not forget that there were women in the priesthood that the catholic church also covered up. that would have been a great influence but it wasn't enough to resist christian's conquerors in rome.
>>73908563
Well early Christians took it *very* literally.
>>73908547
Final Causality, you'd imagine.
But I need to go to work and can't stay long.
>>73908503
Nope.
Governments altering market conditions for arbitrary moral reasons predates Marx by a very long time.
>>73901683
I fucking hate the way that Communists mock Christianity but want to use it to bludgeon people into supporting them.
People they don't even like. People they want to purge.
Fucking Marxist scum.
>>73908724
Yes, *I* would imagine. We both know he wouldn't though.
>>73908672
>i'm invincible
>you spoke of harm to me so i'm going to talk about how the suffering of others doesn't bother me
>>73908720
So there's tons of accounts of self-eye-gouging then?
>>73908778
yes it predates marx, but marx rekindled it by simply recording the current events during his lifetime
>>73908830
I'm not invincible. You can kill me if you'd like - any sufficient force that can pierce skin will do.
I honestly don't care. You're talking to someone who has been considering martyrdom in some Muslim hellhole for years now, and who has only ever come closer to doing so.
>>73908794
>>73908794
It truly is disgusting isn't it?
>>73908700
>failing so badly you're saying random shit to save face
>>73908720
It's hyperbole. It can be taken literally but it's meant to be extremely overexaggerated to stress an idea.
>>73908979
>GLBT
>>73908973
so you're a fuckin suicidal psycho who projects their own insecurities on others to claim humans don't have rights.
gotcha.
>>73909104
A pacifist is a psycho. Yeah.
And it's *TOTALLY* wrong to say you don't owe me your time and effort. *So selfish!*
Fucking hilarious.
>>73908913
How could rekindle events that were already in motion prior to his birth?
The truly amusing thing is that a Marxist you should believe that Marx had no great influence at all as from a Marxist point of view he was simply commenting upon emergent processes that would occur regardless if he wrote about them.
>>73909251
>martyring is pacifist
putting yourself in a situation to be murdered is suicide. suicide is violence directed towards the self.
so smug!
>>73909318
because the sentiments rekindled were previously suppressed repeatedly throughout history. Marx comes along and uses hegelian dialectic and capitalists to this day are still buttblasted by it.
>>73909318
Best anon in thread.
>>73909320
I'm commanded to evangelize, and someone's gotta do it in dangerous places. Might as well be me. It's hardly suicide - you're not killing yourself. Other people are killing you.
>>73909422
>>73909491
>>73909456
it's definitely suicide and it won't mean anything because people in that area die all the time. you're suffering from delusions of grandeur
>>73901683
>Karl Marx is more influential than Jesus.
Interdasting question Op.
Well, for one Marx was so far after Christ that a lot of history happened.
Then again, a lot of that history is from the east, where people didn't have a Judo-Christian-Muslim religion. And a lot of history is about war which was passed off as religion but was really economic.
Marx introduced the viewpoint of economics into history, and everyone has had to use economics to survive (of course I am using economics broadly here to include all collective action and resource distribution of societies.)
and most of what Religion did was to suppress an individuals awareness of such matters.
Modern man is, therefore, I believe more influenced by Marx than Jesus.
definitely.
>>73909557
>it's definitely suicide
Lamo
You calling something suicide suicide does not make. Someone else killing you is never suicide. That's like saying someone who dies in a car wreck was suicidal because they took on the chance that someone would drive into them simply by getting in the car. At what "danger level" is something suicide for you? And how can you *POSSIBLY* qualify that, *LET ALONE* quantify it?
>>73909725
go stand in front of a train then. you seem to know what the deal is.
>>73909790
Great response bruh. Platinum arguments~
