Force companies to keep facilities here or bring back their factories by punishing them for defiance and renegotiating trade deals?
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/us-china-trade-reform
>Reclaim millions of American jobs and reviving American manufacturing by putting an end to China’s illegal export subsidies and lax labor and environmental standards. No more sweatshops or pollution havens stealing jobs from American workers.
We need barely a fraction of the workers we needed ten years ago to run the factories we still have here, because it'd actually be more costly to move them. American workers are simply too costly to employ for the jobs foreign workers will do for even less, and which robots will do for setup and maintenance.
Look at the fucking Amazon Warehouse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quWFjS3Ci7A
Just a month ago, a fleet of a dozen trucks crossed Europe without trouble.
http://qz.com/656104/a-fleet-of-trucks-just-drove-themselves-across-europe/
Jobs involved with transportation make up the single largest portion of the US economy, and we're standing on the precipice of wiping them out while this man claims he'll "bring jobs back"
The man is lying to you fuckwits. Bernie, and anyone else who promises to "bring jobs back," is no better.
>tfw double majoring CS/Psych and trying to figure out how to convince people this is the future they're about to be forcefully thrown into without freaking them out/causing a neo luddite uprising.
>neomercantalism doesn't work
>japan isn't real
>>73668630
end free trade.
manufacturing jobs must then be done by americans in america.
>>73668630
>by punishing them for defiance and renegotiating trade deals
^
i agree, robots will fuck shit up. but jobs arent literally the only thing hes bringing to the table
>*STATISM INTENSIFIES*
>>73668732
So they can build factories full of robots here..?
>>73668692
His plan is to massively reduce the deficit/debt though, isn't it? Pic related
>>73668720
You mean by robots? They're already busy at it in FoxConn, and this article is from 4 years ago.
http://singularityhub.com/2012/11/12/1-million-robots-to-replace-1-million-human-jobs-at-foxconn-first-robots-have-arrived/
Don't care about this can't do attitude. Bring back the jobs, start public works or great projects, colonize space or whatever, start a fucking war, or give people basic income. Doesn't matter what, but DO SOMETHING. He's the only one that seems to even care.
America isn't a helpless little thing that can't help itself or its citizen. They can figure something out but they have to vote for someone who cares.
>>73668692
>Japan
>The poster child for economic stagnation for the last quarter-century.
wew lad
>>73668931
>He's the only one that seems to even care.
>seems
This is where it always seems to break down. He's giving the impression he has these answers, but is honestly no different from the people who were less capable of bullshitting.
>>73668733
All I'm saying is he has no idea what the fuck he's suggesting here. Short of going full luddite and demanding that automation be restricted (in which case other nations take away our current lead in the race to forming post scarcity societies) job growth will become increasingly tiny for the people he's promising it to (basically the laid off factory workers and uneducated whites without a trade or anything).
>>73669116
>stagnating at a very high standard of living with very low crime rates is bad
confusedanimegirl.jpg
>>73669303
>somethingsomething slowly going extinct
>>73669116
People can still live well in stagnating economies. Investors have convinced everyone the only thing that matters is growth others they can't leech money via the stock market
>>73669303
The standard of living is being artificially maintained by massive debt: see >>73668914
All your precious neo-mercantilism will bring Japan to is a much more polite redux of the Greek debt crisis.
>>73669665
>As long as you keep borrowing it'll be fine though! Greece is still pretty comfy!
lol at all this delusion
In any case, I'd like to think Trump, Bernie or someone has answers to this looming question but I honestly don't. It's kind of terrifying tbqh.
>>73669568
That's just garbage tier ecology though. It's asinine to assume that birth rates wouldn't cycle back upwards as population drops.
Sooner or later countries are going to have to learn to manage economies and maintain quality of life without shoveling an ever growing number of bodies at the problem.
>>73668630
Every job that robots can do they are already doing.
Secondly, if you were right robots will replace humans eventually anyway so what is the point of your post.
>>73668630
>American workers are simply too costly to employ for the jobs foreign workers will do for even less
It's called a tariff
>and I don't care about your meme degree which you haven't even finished
>(you)
>>73670108
>It's called a tariff
Which are universally accepted as retarded economic policy by anyone who actually knows the first fucking thing about the subject.
>>73670108
No, it's called automating the jobs we dragged back so our exports remain competitively priced after all the tariffs that we'll get slapped with in return.
It's funny you call it a meme degree though, because a lot of it involves manipulating social networks...
>>73670013
You're aware technological innovation causes things to be able to do new things...right? Wtf do you think they're developing self driving trucks (and tractors) for? To always have human drivers behind them?
The point is that Trump is either lying or very myopic/ignorant about what we're already living in the midst of.
>>73670392
>Which are universally accepted as
BULLLLLSHIT. That's just what they are shilling now.
Post-industrial nations can be self-sufficient and do not need international trade (as long as they have proper domestic competition; governments have allowed international competition to become the only competition). Economic sovereignty would give them more options to fix their problems, like lowering the working hours (they don't talk much about it anymore, in the 50s people thought they would work 5 hours a week in the year 2000, but we work more than ever).
International trade is more of a matter of world order, making countries interdependent, and spreading western influence, etc.
>>73668630
>tariff on manufactured goods to avoid direct competition with people who will work for slave wages in disgusting conditions in other countries
>significantly lowered domestic taxes like income, corporate income and trade taxes so that companies can still make their money here, they aren't being forced out of business
Really not difficult.
>>73670872
But muh robots maaaaaaan! They'll literally replace everyone! It's not like this has been major propaganda point for communists since Marx, it's a problem we need to begin worrying about now!
>>73670872
>Prices of commodities rise nationwide and numerous American companies must shut down as their export goods are slapped with a tariff in turn.
>Deficit and US debt skyrocket as he attempts to keep US companies afloat by slashing taxes, contradicting one of the biggest tenets of his plan. This is especially true if he wants to "rebuild the military" anywhere near as much as he has said he intends to.
>Very few jobs return anyways, because of how much cheaper it is in the long run to set up a factory of robots than one of human workers.
You're right, it wasn't difficult at all to ruin the US economy.
>>73668630
instead of buying a backhoe that costs a lot and only employs 1 person, buy 100 shovels hand them over to 100 employees.
Hell you'd probably get it done faster too.
>>73670707
My point is that you're using an irrelevant fact to prove your argument. Robots will replace humans whether we are self sufficient or not.
So, he's not lying. Forcing and/or giving an incentive for industry to stay here will create jobs. At least until robots replace those jobs which is inevitable anyway.
Basically your post just amounts to: Robots will replace the work force.
>>73670802
>International trade is more of a matter of world order, making countries interdependent, and spreading western influence, etc.
Probably the most important point in this thread desu.
>>73670802
>Post-industrial nations can be self-sufficient and do not need international trade
Agriculture says hi, how the fuck do you think you're going to keep fresh produce around in the winter.
Basic Goddamned Economics says hi again too, and wants to know which of Tinkerbell's friends gave you the magic pixie dust that suddenly makes comparative advantage stop working across national borders.
Sure, nations can be self sufficient. That doesn't change the fact that people are always economically better off with international trade than without, even the retards who piss and whine about manufacturing jobs.
>>73671243
http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/08/06/views-from-those-who-expect-ai-and-robotics-to-displace-more-jobs-than-they-create-by-2025/
I wish it was still a joke, you notice how people frequently say most of the jobs created post 2008 crash were "temp" or "not full time"? Productivity innovations (some as simple as better software, with zero physical presence) are pretty much why that is. Big companies don't really give a fuck about how the work is done, as long as the quality is good and the cost acceptable.
You don't need to believe me, I am merely some anon on a Mongolian crocheting forum, just watch.
>>73671504
>comparative advantage
Can be completely blown away by having more jobs, higher wages, worker protection and general social progress.
The west mostly has social problems, not productivity problems. Free trade is being forced upon us and reduces our sovereignty. They're trying to get their one-world-government thing going, but it's going to take forever and is only going to turn us all into a third world. Screw that. Nationalism now.
>>73671433
Robots could replace humans, but they don't HAVE TO replace humans.
>>73671504
>how the fuck do you think you're going to keep fresh produce around in the winter.
California says hi
>the magic pixie dust that suddenly makes comparative advantage stop working across national borders
That's called regulation
>people are always economically better off with international trade than without
[citation needed]
>>73668630
>china gets free trade export deal with U.S.
>china then hikes tariff & non-tariff barriers on imports to approximately 35%
>chinese economy promptly explodes and china becomes world's no.1 economy
"oooh wow, man - it's like an economic... miracle! How do they do it?
We could never ever replicate that in the U.S..."
Do you realize how big of a corporate shill you sound like? It's like you decided to study economics, but declined to read anything written before 1920.
>>73671667
>Can be completely blown away by having more jobs, higher wages, worker protection and general social progress.
t. Guy who lives in an imaginary fairyland.
90% of the quality of life improvements that we've seen over the last few decades have been direct products of globalization.
>>73671820
>[citation needed]
Every single study of the effects of international trade ever.
>>73671504
>fresh produce in the winter
>muh agriculture
I know farmers up here who have switched to hydroponics over the past few years and farm all year round. It's doable and fairly cheap to do on a large scale once the start-up costs are taken care of.
>>73671706
But they will.
>>73671504
>comparative advantage
>a theory created by (((David Ricardo)))
Oh, jew!
So I hope everyone is ok with prices for all goods going up severalfold just so a million high school drop outs can get high paying Union jobs in a robot factory.
Have fun paying $5000 for a PC.
>>73671946
Then you shouldn't have a problem producing one.
Income inequality.. environmental destruction.. low wages.. all problems created by "free" trade. Free as long as it's coming into the US from China that is.
>>73671946
>90% of the quality of life improvements that we've seen over the last few decades have been direct products of globalization.
Citation fucking needing.
What quality of life improvements there have been over the past few decades are the result of the information age, driven by technological innovation in, and with the lionshare of funding coming from, murica.
>>73671956
>derrr hydroponics overcomes such physical problems such as sunlight and air temperature.
You are a fucking idiot.
>>73668630
Okay.
Since Obama, Sanders, Hillary, Biden, Webb, Cruz, Rubio, Bush, Paul, Graham, Carson, Christie, Stein, Johnson and McAfee all promised the same thing, you're prepared to refute them too right?
>>73671433
It's as relevant as "No, robots will take the jobs" can be to the man proclaiming "I will bring back jobs."
He's lying because the jobs he's bringing back will, by and large, not fall into the hands of American workers (especially in the realm of manufacturing), but will be left up to American companies to sort out how to fulfill their manufacturing demands.
Yes, my post amounts to robots replacing the workforce, but it's pertinent to both Sanders' and Trump's platforms in that it completely undermines their job plans.
Saying something is irrelevant, regardless of how many times you say it is, doesn't make it so.
>>73671822
Did you read my post at all? I have little doubt we'll be able to force companies to return to the US and make them more competitive by introducing measures such as tariffs to negate China's, my doubts arise in the idea of actually giving Americans those jobs again. Keep in mind we're not trying to bring back jobs for scientists and engineers, we're trying to bring back factory jobs. (Ie the ones you automated or exported to stay competitive for the last 30ish years)
>>73671706
Say you're the CEO and the investors demand better returns now. You're presented with the idea that instead of paying out for payroll, benefits, sick days etc you can get these machines that just need setup and some upkeep, and you could even get a bonus for maximizing profits so much. Big companies are businesses, not charities ffs. This is literally how the discussion went to offshore the jobs before.
>>73671980
>comparative advantage
It is true, but it is not necessarily worth it for post-industrial nations. It can cause a lot more problems than it solves.
Some people would have the economic aspect of absolutely everything take precedence over the rest. They would completely ignore the other aspects of human societies and their culture.
Ultimately, the globalists want to abolish the nation state.
Trump has said millions of times hes in favour or removing things like PLC controls and most automation, safety devices etc must be removed aswell. Trump said he envisaged it like the original ford factories and said that he wants to see 1000's of men covered in soot walking home to their Ford Home for their required 6 hours of sleep before going back for another 12 hour shift.
Trump is actually just a dumb cunt like most of you who have never stepped inside a modern factory, we simply do not need many people to run a factory anymore.
>>73672096
So equilibrium?
>higher wages
>things cost more
the difference is the money and the employment is staying in the US.
>>73672247
They're all wrong for the same fucking reason: they do not understand what is happening with regard to the productivity innovations eroding the job market. Very few outside the tech industry do. That's why it's a huge fucking problem.
>>73672310
Holy fuck I didn't realize he actually was rolling full luddite on this. I guess we should get ready to watch China be the first ones to reach post scarcity (assuming they survive the massive job shortage and probable subsequent civil war) then
>>73668630
how humans can even compete?
and you always tell people what they want to hear, technically speaking most things we speak are lies of some kind but if I can soothe you with my lie and cause not a substantial harm I will fuckin do it
also what people do REALLY need? were they 1000 years ago all about *jobs*?
The death of barter was the beginning of acceptable civil ignorance. We're all keeping ourselves stupid and not thinking for ourselves by >looking to leaders
Fucking sad. Where is the lifestyle of self awareness? Where the fuck is that?
>>73668630
>It's too costly unless we either use magical and capitally intensive (and also industry creating) autonomy tech or fall to shitty slavewages!!!!!
>Germany's manufacturing economy, so strong, nimble and diversified that it could go through the recession with TAX CUTS before the refugee cuckstorm
>That just doesn't exist!!!!!!
Fuck off
>>73668931
>start public works or great projects
This does not reduce the deficit.
>start a fucking war
Broken window fallacy. Wars are not good for economies as a whole.
Space development is fine, basic income isn't necessary until a good portion of the economy is automated, at which point it's a cost effective way to avoid blood on the streets.
>>73672466
Currently your alternative is Hillary who has said that she is going to ban nuclear power and forcibly shut down all coal plants and coal mines.
>>73672466
>Holy fuck I didn't realize he actually was rolling full luddite on this.
Obvious anti-Trump shill is being obvious through this whole thread.
Never fall for it /pol!
Don't vote in a bought off corporatist, it's as simple as that.
>>73672222
>A growth system which necessitates indoor production
>WELL OBVIOUSLY THE REAL PROBLEM IS LIGHT AND TEMPERATURE
LITERALLY CAN'T CONTROL EITHER OF THESE VARIABLES IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT
>>73672264
I would not put my business out for investment. Pretty simple. Then I can run the business how I want and INVEST in my employees
>>73672621
>a cost effective way to avoid blood on the streets
Eh. Yeah, this is how our leaders think of their people I'm afraid. :/
>>73672485
>death of barter
>looking to leaders
These are two different things. Barter still exists, but was long ago superseded by money, because double coincidence of wants makes trade a massive pain in the ass.
If you're going to complain about economics, focus on the death of hard currency and full reserve banking.
>>73672585
They have far stronger unions, and an educational sector devoted to pipe lining people into trades (with many heading straight to industry) or college pretty early on, vs our hot mess of education.
Additionally, they manufacture primarily high quality products for niche markets vs our focus on mass markets (which we've been getting murdered in, as Trump correctly points out)
Apples to Oranges, bongistani scum.
Check it out m80
https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/manufacturing-processing/how-does-germany-do-it
The world economy is a zero sum game. America can win by beating the competition any means necessary
>>73672635
You're right, we're fucking doomed.
>>73672734
But it's true. If 50% of the people in the country are unemployed and hungry, you really think they'll just quietly starve to death, as opposed to shooting someone with money for a loaf of bread? As far as I can see, some form of wealth redistribution is the only way to avoid having to be ready for a firefight every time you leave the house. The nice part is that automation is an accelerating process, so the period of socialism should be relatively short before we hit post-scarcity.
>>73672845
>... according to the Manufacturers Alliance for Productivity and Innovation, manufacturing accounts for ...
>according to manufacturers manufacturers are super important
>on an ME website
hmmm, dunno about this sourcing
>>73672652
Almost got me leafling, almost.
>>73672717
Fantastic, too bad you make up an infinitismally small amount of the economy and the big, publicly traded companies do (and they're unfortunately not quite as "humanitarian" as you, latest example: 12k layoff by Intel)
My company recently replaced several automated production lines with $9/hr temps. The automated machines damaged our products leading to recalls. Humans are a lot easier to maintain and replace.
>>73673006
Meh, they're just explaining how the German manufacturing sector did the things the bongistani was pointing out. While formidable, trying to do what they accomplished over decades in a mere 4-8 year term isn't possible.
The problem is that trump supporters see factories like they were in the old days and think we need massive amounts of production and maintenance staff, WE DON'T!
Forget this robotics fucking meme, I've worked in the largest factories in Australia and most had maybe 1 robot to do something like put blocks of wood onto products for stacking and that only replaced a complicated PLC controlled system that used linear slides and vaccuum heads.
The only way to have the amount of people employed in factories like from thr 50's-late 90's is to remove all PLC controls and safety features like laser gates etc. That will never happen ever and absolutely no engineering firm will build a luddite steam powered fucking factory. You want manufacturing to come back well that's fine just realise that you will have a 80% drop in employment compared to older style plants. Is it worth it? absolutely not, a global financial crash is not worth employing a few thousand redneck trash to sit on a chair and look at things fly past them on a conveyer.
How did people fall for this clown though? was it the wall? are people really that strong single issue voters?
How are trumptards in such denial when it comes to manufacturing? are they showing their true colours of being the "uneducated" that trump loves so much? Obviously now I can see why he does, they put absolutely no thought into what he says.
>>73673054
>Flag-shaming
No. Only real /pol'tards get to do that. Not obvious shills.
>>73672162
I don't need to because a cursory google search on the economics of free trade will produce hundreds of thousands of sources that agree with me, with the only counter-argument coming from nationalist demagogues who do precisely what you're doing and conjure up the ghosts of every societal ill they can imagine and try to pin the blame on globalization.
>>73672170
for you, I'll at least do a cursory search since it's not something like the benefits of free trade which, again, can be corroborated by any economics textbook and every single study on it ever.
And that came up with http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-19/these-are-the-world-s-most-innovative-economies
The US is only barely holding onto the top 10 for tech innovation. And quality of life improvements hardly begins and ends at the existence of new technology- without free trade, far fewer people would have access to all the fancy new tech South Korea has invented to make our lives easier.
>>73673278
Holy shit I forgot that with Canada going full troll Australia actually circled back around to being sensible.
>>73672873
It's not zero-sum
China benefits enormously from producing goods sold to the US
US benefits by gaining access to cheap products overseas. By importing cheap products, labor capacity is freed for more advanced and profitable industries like tech
Both China and US benefit
Sure, the situations might lead to a slightly higher unemployment and screw unskilled workers in the short run but in the long run, the competition pushes the market towards skilled labor, benefiting the US economy further
Trump's anti China shit is bad for the economy. It could be good for the US if you really stretch it
Sending manufacturing jobs overseas is a sign of a strong economy, just like currency appreciation
>>73673280
DUDE
>>73673278
Eh, "robots" are kind of a catch all for productivity innovations in their entirety. Automation isn't the only face of it, and I agree completely.
They're terrified of the future, and he presents the impression of a strong, calm leader to lead them through it...who's still mad about a joke Vanity Fair made about his hands 25 years ago.
Once again: we're fucking doomed.
>>73673436
>strong economy
Who cares? Wages are stagnant for so many.
The economy at the service of the people, not the other way around.
>>73672845
That's hardly an argument that it can't be made the case for the US in the near future, and in fact it would be important to recognise why the US economy and educational has become such a hot mess; largely as a function of an increasingly globalised economy which favours interests and businesses with high access to capital, and the long term decline of traditional manufacturing in the US. Jobs and trades and values that support them and a comfortable life with a family and strong community have been eschewed for rabid individualism or statism, and the immature hope of making it big and being extraordinary. In fact, you could indeed say that the lack of low and medium skill jobs has been one of the biggest reasons why the education system in the US has been deformed into such a grotesque shape - instead of being fully able to seek well paid, stable employment, kid's hopes must lay upon going to college.
That's not a permanent difference and to say that this is just how it is pure and ugly defeatism - we CAN change this, and innervating the economy and leveling the playing field will help.
>They manufacture primarily high quality products for niche markets
A more accurate view would be that the German manufacturing sector is highly unitised and companies (small and medium enterprises, the sorts of enterprises which had been the engine of American growth in the manufacturing era) are specialised in producing a small variety of products, rather than blooming to acquire other industries, pushing for market share, capital growth and quarter on quarter profits.
And again, that can be changed, and with the reforms that are being suggested by Trump and the political swing not just by the US electorate but globally, away from globalist corporate "free"markets, there's good reason to the believe that the US can make the headway to fixing themselves.
Also
>What they accomplished over decades
Product of their political system, cold war & EU regulatory system.
>>73673464
Well if he is elected lets just hope that your congress can block his bullshit from getting through. I don't care if you want a wall and stop muslims immigrating, just don't fuck with the global economy, I don't want my retirement plan getting burned up for trumptards.
>>73673622
Spouting off platitudes and bringing up problems that aren't actually caused by free trade aren't an argument, Leaf.
>>73673436
>but in the long run, the competition pushes the market towards skilled labor
Good to know your markets push for something your populace literally can't sustain.
>>73668630
>deporting 6 trillion mestizos won't free up the job market
Chinga tu Madre gringo
>>73673622
>bring jobs back from china
>US companies continue their exploitation of the workers
>wages remain stagnant
tariffs won't solve that. that's a much more complicated issue that I doubt either candidate has a plan for addressing
>>73671946
>90% of the quality of life improvements that we've seen over the last few decades have been direct products of globalization.
>shit I just pulled out of my ass
tok pek
>>73673278
Except if the factories are in the U.S. the money spent on the products stays in the U.S.
It doesn't really matter if the factories hire 6000000 workers or not. What's important is that we're not losing money in trade deficits for stupid bullshit products.
>>73673813
Yeah we've seen this happen in many countries where the need for staff in manufacturing plants has reduced dramatically over the years that employers can drive down the costs of wages because so many people are ready to take the place of anyone who wants more. Unions have suffered in part because they lost so much manpower that it's far easier for a company to fire anyone who goes on strike and replace them.
>>73673660
The things you say are true by and large, we certainly have a great number of areas to improve within. I'm simply suggesting Trump will not be able to radically alter the very fabric of our country (see: "the American Dream," or more specifically what it has become) to allow greater acceptance of more modest goals in life such a rearrangement would require, even with a full 8 years in office.
These are certainly good ideas to work towards though.
>>73673672
Well if he does unify the GOP as he at least says he will, I'd start worrying tbqh...
>>73673932
Yeah no. The money will continue to flow to offshore investments and safe havens.
They'll just headquater out of Ireland and put a few shitty plants around the U.S and the money will go straight back out.
Your view is idiotic at best, I assume you support trump though.
So let me get your retarded logic straight... since jobs are going to become more scarce in the very near future, we should not try to secure as many as possible for our people?
>>73673718
>problems that aren't actually caused by free trade
They are. There is no way forced competition with countries that do not protect their workers as much can be good for our workers. Not unless our productivity is much, much higher than them. Which is not always the case. Not to mention the effect on employment because not all of our workforce is skilled.
I want domestic competition first, then free trade only so long as it does not hurt our workers. Be ready to bail out the instant it no longer works out for us.
Tax the shit out of companies willingly leaving the country to ruin all benefits they get from leaving in the first place.
>>73674096
I'm guessing you don't watch Trump's rallies or either you watch CNN pundits, or something? He literally references companies moving to Ireland like Pfizer in almost every speech, and how that will be stopped... or at least strongly taxed.
>>73674182
that's pretty much what's gonna happen
>>73668630
can we just automate everything so i dont have to work anymore the only generation too stupid to understand machines are boomers anyways
>>73674096
>Yeah no. The money will continue to flow to offshore investments and safe havens.
>They'll just headquater out of Ireland and put a few shitty plants around the U.S and the money will go straight back out.
Erp except trump is getting rid of those. Get your facts straight austroll.
>>73674124
I believe the idea is that instead of trying to revive a small amount of jobs in something that naturally strives to reduce labour we should be looking to secure jobs in other areas and educating people so that they have more options than just a monkey pushing a button in a plant.
>>73674124
I think his point is that it's futile, and running a campaign on the promise of 'more jobs' as the shadow of automation hangs high over everything is retarded because, even if he brings back say 2 million jobs the wider American community is still going to have MASSIVE unemployment when trucks, taxis, buses and delivery vans can all reliably and safely drive themselves.
Like.
> 10 million people.
> 1 million unemployed.
> Gain 1 million jobs through protectionist policy.
> Lose 3 million jobs through automation.
> Despite succeeding in your promise, there are still more unemployed than before, meaning your promise and action are effectively useless.
>>73674289
Would have to lower the working hours for that to make sense.
>>73674243
And if he does tax them, those companies will just completely shed the shackles of their ties to the US. There's a big world out there, with a few billion consumers in emerging economies just itching to join the modern world. Businesses won't need US markets for much longer, so do you really think it's a good idea to drive them away?
>>73673281
I'm going to have to object quite strenuously to that article.
It doesn't show that somebody other than the US drove the information age, or that globalization provided quality of life improvements to the average american citizen.
For starters it doesn't even give a fucking time frame or link directly to where they sourced beyond agency names. But beyond that, the methodology is rubbish and doesn't measure contribution.
As an example,
>R&D intensity: Research and development expenditure as % of GDP.
Meaning, a diverse economy with oh, I don't know, a large agriculture sector and huge entertainment industry will get a lower rating because their overall GDP is higher even if they contribute more on an absolute scale.
The other indicators are much the same. This chart is a picture of how focused these economies are on tech, not on how innovative or important they are to the information age.
Aside from all that, this has nothing to do with how an American's QoL has changed because of it. Most of those improvements, as I see them, are due to the technologies we invented and continue to refine, and domestic construction to build the communication infrastructure to use it.
>>73674496
>And if he does tax them, those companies will just completely shed the shackles of their ties to the US. There's a big world out there, with a few billion consumers in emerging economies just itching to join the modern world. Businesses won't need US markets for much longer, so do you really think it's a good idea to drive them away?
Oh geee golly what'll we ever do without the fucking gooks making our televisions.
We'll be helpless! The US has nothing to offer the world!
>>73674300
Tell me again how trump is going to "get rid of" companies outside of america?
The companies will continue to sell to everyone, they will increase the price of products going to america, trump will tax his people with tariffs into poverty and be kicked out of office.
You think some multinational gives a fuck what trump does with tariffs? kek
>>73668630
>Trump's going to "bring jobs back"? How?
The same way Hillary is going to...
>>73674356
I've noticed that recently there has been a trend of amazingly unrealistic ideas about the utility of automation. I can't believe that so many people earnestly believe that complete and reliable automation of vehicles is something that is at all in our near future.
>>73674571
Why don't you look it up faggot. You're obviously uninformed and i'm not your nanny.
>>73674564
Look at this fool willingly driving his people into the 3rd world without a care in the world.
Brazil 2.0 when?
>>73674377
im totally fine with this annon i dont want to work 40 hours a week id be perfectly happy working 25-30
>>73674564
>We'll be helpless!
OMG WE'RE HELPLESS!
Save us, jews!
>Mexico taxes our shit as it comes in
>we don't as much
Wouldn't it just be better if we both had an equal, lower tax rate?
>>73674623
Yeah because you're a typical trumptard spouting off sound bites with no critical thinking skills. Just fuck off you pathetic shill.
>>73674564
...you do realize the shitty companies we slap together to replace the multinationals that left us won't be able to compete with the products they have (which I'm guessing Trump would majorly tariff, if not outright ban, for their betrayal for years, right?
>>73674688
Hell yeah. It should have happened decades ago desu... :/
>>73674723
>you pathetic shill
Well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black
It's just a thing that candidates say to get votes:
"Make America Great Again"
"Build a wall along the border"
"I'm self funding my campaign"
"Nobody owns me"
funny how he went back on those once enough suckers voted for him.
>>73674559
>a large agriculture sector and huge entertainment industry
These were poorly chosen sectors when talking about % of gdp, mixed myself up. point still stands though.
>>73674606
Well i'd agree in terms of timescale. I don't think widespread vehicle automation is happening for another 20-30 years. But given the scope? The second a company can produce a car that is statistically "safer" from a human driver, that tech is going to be extrapolated in some way or another into practically every single industry you could imagine. Even insurance agents would probably feel a pinch given there would probably be fewer accidents.
Like. Right now people are balking at the 'Fight for 15' people going "HAHA YOU'LL JUST GET AUTOMATED OUT OF YOUR JOB!" when that is happening regardless of wages, regardless of industry and regardless of individual merit or skill. Automation is pennies on the dollar of a human being, costs are rising and wages aren't.
There is a shadow looming, and regardless of the timescale in 10 years time or 50. It will happen. And when it does everything we know about economics and policy and the 'average unemployed citizen' is going to be turned on its head.
>>73674792
How so? The only people here not interested in actual discussion on a level higher than soundbites are trump supporters who cannot even defend their policies.
He's shit, his policies are shit and I don't want people thinking of trump when I tell them I'm a nationalist. You can run along and go play with your blocks now, it's the only manufacturing job you'll ever see you stupid cunt.
>>73674975
How are you a nationalist?
>>73674559
The article was only to counter your point about tech innovation.
You seem to be under the delusion that because the information age got its start in the US, we're responsible for every new innovation, no matter who actually produced it. By that logic, All manufacturing innovations should be credited to the UK since that's where the industrial revolution took off.
And still, none of that changes the fact that without the cost savings that come from free trade, hardly anyone could afford to own a smartphone and a flatscreen, and certainly not all those poor, jobless factory workers you're so concerned about.
>>73674969
>The second a company can produce a car that is statistically "safer" from a human driver
Did we not already pass this threshold a few years ago with google's street view cars?
I thought the bigger concern was liability with them. Puts a giant bullseye on the car manufacturer, no matter how much safer.
>>73674723
>Yeah because you're a typical trumptard spouting off sound bites with no critical thinking skills. Just fuck off you pathetic shill.
You don't even know why you think trump's policy is bad. You don't even know what it is. You just don't like it because you're a fucking libfaggot.
You're like a creationist who walks around asking people:
>"lol explain how rocks turned to people.... LOL stupid darwin"
>>73674969
Oh it's definitely coming, but I've seen many comments in discussions of late that seem to overestimate just how far along the technology is, as though we're gonna see a total revolution on the streets in the next month or something.
Still, you're right, it's naive to think that we won't see a complete transformation as advances in automation press forward.
>>73674969
I've been involved with alot of automation projects and one thing I'd say is almost universal is that it's a progressive upgrade that happens so slowly people almost don't realise until everything is being controlled by a PLC.
We'll see lots of little upgrades here and there, parts of a whole slowly being automated rather than a sudden "automated utopia". That's the problem though because it's happening this way people think nothing of it.
>>73674759
>...you do realize the shitty companies we slap together to replace the multinationals that left us won't be able to compete with the products they have (which I'm guessing Trump would majorly tariff, if not outright ban, for their betrayal for years, right?
It's going to be hard in the short term, but in the long term, it's a transition we absolutely have to make.
We're bleeding chips as it is. We need a different strategy.
>>73675095
Have a (You)
>>73675168
So instead of putting long-run effort into actually finding a competitive niche in the global economy and advancing along with it, we bust our asses just to maintain the status quo?
With as ignorant of the subject as you are, I bet if you actually took the time to learn how international economics worked instead of getting all your information from nationalist shills, you'd pull a complete 180 on the topic.
>>73675092
Nah there's still loads of problems that all basically arise from the fact human drivers are shit and even with driverless cars, 99% of the road is still filled with shitty drivers. More and more refinement will come.
I think it's mostly fear at this point, partially because of what you mentioned, but mostly no one wants to have the driverless car fuck up and kill someone and add another 5° to the 85° uphill battle they're gonna have to fight against unions and politicians when the tech becomes measurably superior to humans.
>>73675149
Agreed. It's easily the biggest issue facing the western world and the more it goes untouched, the more likely we're going to get a retarded, half baked leftist response that will sweep by on populism because everyone just ignored this massive issue that has been bubbling for decades.
>>73675395
>So instead of putting long-run effort into actually finding a competitive niche in the global economy and advancing along with it, we bust our asses just to maintain the status quo?
Just the opposite:
We bust our ass to change the status quo, because the status quo isn't working for us. This is the long run effort.
I hate to say it but Not an argument.
>>73675395
>nationalist shills
kek
You're gonna have to argue A HELL OF A LOT better than that to get us to turn to globalist jewry instead.
inb4 MUH FREE TRADE
This is not an end in itself to most people here.
>>73675084
>The article was only to counter your point about tech innovation.
Which I understood and addressed. It's strictly a picture of each country's economic bias and has nothing to do with innovation or contribution.
>You seem to be under the delusion that ... we're responsible for every new innovation, no matter who actually produced it.
No you twit. I'm operating under the assumption that if the products are largely designed by Americans and funded by American companies, and based upon American innovations, that we wouldn't be suddenly living in squalor if, heaven forbid, we had Americans working in domestic fabrication plants.
>>73675395
But has the global economy been driven into a locally non-sustainable point right now? We had 1 billion chinamen enter the labor workforce with zero environmental or labor regulations.
Their local position is just as unstable as ours. They have a massive overcapacity and a malinvestment bubble. Meanwhile we have few jobs here.
We followed the globalists into this poisonous situation. Trump, etc is the natural populist political response here. The global economy merely has to re-balance.
No president or government can fix this problem. Whether they continue the status quo free trade OR try to bring back protectionism.
Uncle Ted was right, nobody listened
total collapse is the only way anything /pol/ complains about will ever be fixed on a nationwide level. Aside from that your personal lives matter more than politics
>>73675637
Yes, an argument, I'm talking about the economic status quo, not policy. You want a solution to the long-term problems of economic isolaitonism? Abolish economic isolationist policy.
>>73676003
>Yes, an argument, I'm talking about the economic status quo, not policy. You want a solution to the long-term problems of economic isolaitonism? Abolish economic isolationist policy.
So you believe that the U.S. is currently economically isolationist?
Am I reading you correctly?
>>73676103
not even remotely.
>>73676201
Then what the fuck are you even talking about?
>>73676201
>>So instead of putting long-run effort into actually finding a competitive niche in the global economy and advancing along with it, we bust our asses just to maintain the status quo?
Here it's sounds to me like you're saying that trump's proposal is maintaining the status quo.
> I'm talking about the economic status quo, not policy. You want a solution to the long-term problems of economic isolaitonism? Abolish economic isolationist policy.
Then you say you're not talking about policy, and then suggest abolishing isolationist policy (which is what trump is advocating for, which it sounded like you referred to as the status quo?).
I really don't know what to make of it.
>>73676420
I think the shillbot you're talking to is starting to malfunction.
>>73676575
Yea, shills btfo
>>73676575
Heh, or maybe just a bit overloaded. They must be active on multiple threads at the same time.
>>73676575
>>73676672
>>73676677
Trumps jewish campaign finance manager has deposited 0.25 Shekels into your accounts, Shalom good goys.
its not like there is another republican to vote for now innit?
>>73676845
They are reconfiguring!
>>73668630
This entire thread the same people keep saying "how few people it takes to run a factory nowadays!"
Ok, then explain why factories are all being setup in places with cheap labor?
>>73676845
How can I sign up for this?
>>73678511
1 800 HIL-VOTE
>>73678311
Nobody's gunna explain shit to you. Even they don't believe what they're, that's why it's incoherent.
They're political zombies... Whether they're literal shills or not.
>>73678739
It's much more than that. Certain ideas seem to enter a standardized worldview. Some ideas seem to be adopted by the left and some by the right. They are not necessarily political.
I find this current idea about of course robotics are going to replace all jobs as one. How many people who hold this as a truism have actually done manufacturing or robotics (I have)
Another is the idea for universal basic income.
Old ideas were the globalization mess we are dealing with now.
Huge sections of people are adopting certain ideas as truisms, with zero personal evidence of their truth and thinking other that think otherwise are idiots.
It can't be an internet phenomenon, as it predates it.
What ever happened to decentralization? Millions/Billions of independent people working to do the best they can in net creating an optimal system? Why do we need these overarching political ideologies that are probably toxic and take decades to play out?
>>73679851
The flip-side of this of course is the failure of the elites. The current political implementation seems to be that the left and right place place entire faith in techno-elites whose own worldview is probably wrong and dangerous.
Krugman being a perfect example.
Populism (and Trump) is of course the reaction to this.
