https://warisboring.com/test-pilot-admits-the-f-35-can-t-dogfight-cdb9d11a875#.gux7i0hjc
>The F-35 was flying “clean,” with no weapons in its bomb bay or under its wings and fuselage. The F-16, by contrast, was hauling two bulky underwing drop tanks, putting the older jet at an aerodynamic disadvantage.
>But the JSF’s advantage didn’t actually help in the end. The stealth fighter proved too sluggish to reliably defeat the F-16, even with the F-16 lugging extra fuel tanks. “Even with the limited F-16 target configuration, the F-35A remained at a distinct energy disadvantage for every engagement,” the pilot reported.
>The defeated flier’s five-page report is a damning litany of aerodynamic complaints targeting the cumbersome JSF.
>“Insufficient pitch rate.” “Energy deficit to the bandit would increase over time.” “The flying qualities in the blended region (20–26 degrees AoA) were not intuitive or favorable.”
>The F-35 jockey tried to target the F-16 with the stealth jet’s 25-millimeter cannon, but the smaller F-16 easily dodged. “Instead of catching the bandit off-guard by rapidly pull aft to achieve lead, the nose rate was slow, allowing him to easily time his jink prior to a gun solution,” the JSF pilot complained.
>And when the pilot of the F-16 turned the tables on the F-35, maneuvering to put the stealth plane in his own gunsight, the JSF jockey found he couldn’t maneuver out of the way, owing to a “lack of nose rate.”
>The F-35 pilot came right out and said it—if you’re flying a JSF, there’s no point in trying to get into a sustained, close turning battle with another fighter. “There were not compelling reasons to fight in this region.” God help you if the enemy surprises you and you have no choice but to turn.
None of this is about the A-10.
WHO CARES?
And trump asks what the us gets from SK. we bought 40 of these flying death traps
>>73468326
>modern air combat
>dogfighting
Pick one.
>>73468969
Only 40!?! Buddy, I think you're gonna need way more protection than that.
>>73468969
they are quite honestly one of the biggest blunders I've seen in recent military innovations.
Its an overpriced clusterfuck that trys to do everything and can but just not very well
>>73468969
Well it has the radar cross section of a bowling ball, and a similarly small heat signature, so it can't reliably be targeted by the most deadly of anti-air or air to air weapons.
>>73468326
a shit plane for a shitty ass declining nation. it's to be expected.
>2016
>dogfighting
ISHYGDDT
>>73469196
>so it can't reliably be targeted by the most deadly of anti-air or air to air weapons
yeah, especially while it's being grounded
>>73469256
Side-winders and radar guided missles can't target it. You won't get a lock and a IR missle won't catch it's signature.
>>73468326
And marines cant joust, whoopdeedoo
>>73468326
>dogfight
No longer a thing.
It's all about mobility and detection now, """dogfights""" are over The second one side gets detected first.
>>73468326
>Shit pilot gets in new plane and gets his ass kicked
>blames plane
>>73469328
sound like you can just fly up to it and fire some flak cannon into its ass though
>>73469328
>Side-winders and radar guided missles can't target it
And when the other guys field planes with similar stealth capabilities that can't be targeted by heat/radar guided missiles, then we'll be back to dogfighting with guns and the mk1 eyeball.
Hence the huge fucking problem that the F-35 is shit in a dogfight.
>>73468326
They aren't meant for dog fighting. The F-22 is.
They are meant for loading them up with shit tons of missiles and bombs to eradicate anything on the ground. After air space superiority has been accomplished.
>>73469626
>>73469528
>hello shills
>>73469602
This. Russian gen 5 fighters are going to fuck this thing up it's asshole
Im am so tired of this shit
It wasnt designed to dogfight
You fucking thick cunt
>>73469602
>with similar stealth capabilities
How would they even meet in the air?
>>73468326
>dogfight
>2016
>not knowing that f-35's don't fly out alone
>F22 escort
>primary role is anti ground
>stealth and bvr
>will constantly be upgraded and probably new engine in a few years
ITT: retards and armchair strategists/pilots explaining why the f-35 is bad.
>>73469602
>Mk. 1 Eyeball
I see someone is a fan of CMANO
>>73469675
>there’s no point in trying to get into a sustained, close turning battle with another fighter
Other than finding out how terrible this pilot must be. I bet the F16 was being flown by a woman. How pathetic. Brand new plane and he can't even handle his own fuckbuddy behind the stick
>>73469626
This. They're a shit replacement for the A-10, and that's all. Have you ever seen A-10s dogfighting?
>>73468326
>David Axe
>year old debunked article
How about reading what an actual F-35 pilot says.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/update-norwegian-pilot-counters-leaked-f-35-dogfi-422552/
>>73469785
Patrolling and come across in visual range would be the only way.
>>73469675
It isn't a shill. I've studied the planes and read up on them both. It is what it is. The F-35 is the down and dirty buzzard in the sky and the F-22 is the eagle.
>>73468326
thanks for the year old article which thinks a flight test designed to test the software limits put in place on the F35 test plane is a dog fight
>>73469860
Lets see what actual pilots say about that.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/air-force/2016/05/05/f-35-a-10-air-force-fighter-jet/83961964/
>“You need to really define: What exactly are you talking about when you say [close-air support]? The way you define the question will dramatically affect the answer that you come up with,” Chari said Tuesday, fresh off his latest F-35 test flight. “Are you talking about CAS in a low-threat environment, or CAS in a high-threat environment? Basically, contested or uncontested?”
>If US forces are fighting in a high-threat environment, the A-10 “isn’t really in the conversation,” Chari said. While the Warthog performs well in Iraq and Afghanistan, where the skies are uncontested, it is not suited for operating against more sophisticated air defenses.
>Commanders can send an A-10 into a high-threat battlefield, “but you can only do it once,” Chari said.
>>73469860
I like the warthog. It is a bad ass fighter but they are getting old I guess.
>>73469189
>implying all the money was actually funneled to the JSF project
FTFY
>>73469874
I would think that once they're close enough to be able to see each others, the radar/IR seekers would be able to also. They're probably only stealth up to a certain distance. And one of them is maybe going to be just a little bit stealthier or detectier than the other one and be able to shoot first...
>>73468326
>a modern plane sucks at WWII era tactics
A 17th century frigate has more broadside cannons than a modern cruiser, and is therefore a superior ship.
That's how fucking stupid you sound.
>>73470035
Not turning A-10s into drones and calling it a day.
>>73470099
Dogfighting was already dying out by WW2, energy fighting was the new hotness.
>>73469108
This, but also
>Stealth fighter
it's the whole fucking point
>>73470091
Because of it's stealthy cross section even if you did get a lock and fired a radar missle at it, once it began taking evasive maneuvers the cross-section changes again and it really easily shakes locks. Same is true of IR missles, the plane has a clever way of reducing it's heat signature so much that even if you fired a missle at it, once it blew flares the missle is almost guranteed to be spoofed.
>>73470240
people are dumb mang
they still think close air support means the plane is flying low and slow to the ground.
>>73468326
One nice thing about the F-35 is that it can cruise at super sonic speeds with out having to use afterburners.
That one trait makes it pretty awesome for a bomber.
>>73470240
No, it is not.
>>73469528
Yeah, no. Sure. Totally. Because the Government spent over a trillion dollars on this program, and have been fighting off criticism since before day one. They most certainly picked a weak-ass pilot to show it off. That makes sense. Yeah. You're not a faggot. Nope. Sure you suck balls and jack guys off while getting DP from a pair of lumberjacks, but you aren't the faggot of the century. That honor goes to your father - and the homo hobo he fucked in the ass to conceive you. You fucking idiot of all time.
>>73470266
Oh. Interesting. But the missiles are going to get smarter and smarter about this? If the pilot can distinguish them, an AI could too.
>>73468326
Why do you need to dogfight if you can launch a missile from a mile away and get back to base before it hits its target?
>>73470478
>the Government spent over a trillion dollars on this program
Thank you for telling us you know nothing on the subject.
>>73468326
The F-35 doesn't need to dogfight, it destroys enemy aircraft from beyond visual range. This has been the case with just about all fighter aircraft for the last 30 years.
>>73470478
thing is, the pilot didn't even complain about the plane. But ignoring that, pilots were getting raped in F22s trying to thrust vector them around F16s until they worked out how to use them properly instead of flying them like F16s
>>73470478
>the Government spent over a trillion dollars on this program
dumbass
> fighting off criticism since before day one.
what comes before day one?
>>73470564
http://www.cnbc.com/2014/07/31/how-dods-15-trillion-f-35-broke-the-air-force.html
Thank your mom for her offer.
>>73468326
F35 is stealth. F16 can't even see f35 before being destroyed.
>>73468326
no one cares enough to read your Russian anti-NATO shilling
>Argentina
It was worth a trillion dollars just to develop the VTOL, and we got a plane out of it? Hot diggity dog.
>>73470761
was that picture really called for? We are having a civil discourse.
>>73470564
F-35 Total Costs Soar to $1.5 Trillion; Lockheed Defends Program ...
breakingdefense.com/.../f-35-total-costs-soar-to-1-5-trillion-lockheed-defends-progra...
Mar 30, 2012 - Overall, the F-35 will cost an appreciably impressive $1.5 trillion over the 55 years it is expected to be flying, up from an estimated $1 trillion. ... The overall value of the program comes from a Lockheed Martin statement. ... The “total acquisition cost” of these programs has grown
He was right about the cost.
WTD?
>>73470728
>the Government spent over a trillion dollars on this program
>which is expected to cost $1.5 trillion over the 55-year life of the program
Thank you for evidencing your ignorance.
Wait a minute....
You mean a fat plane with tiny wings isn't maneuverable?
I don't know what to believe anymore!
>>73470609
This is an AIM-120 AMRAAM missile, it has it's own homing radar meaning it doesn't need the plane it was fired from to guide it to the target. It has a range of 75km, making dogfighting irrelevant, it's been in production since 1991.
>>73470035
The F-35 will never beat the fear the A-10 brings to the battlefield. The avenger cannon is feared in an almost supernatural way by our enemies because it tears through anything on the ground and sound like the mouth of hell opening up when it fires.
If burgers weren't such retards they would scrap the whole thing and start over.
>>73470843
>over the 55 years it is expected to be flying
Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension.
Test
>>73470851
>Gives you evidence
>You claim he is ignorant
So if I buy a house with a 30 year mortgage... after a year I've paid 12,000 grand on it - mostly on interest with only a touch on principal...Yep you are right, my house cost 12 grand!
How can you be this stupid and still be alive? How do you find food? Did your mother try to abort you a few times?
>>73469196
>similarly small heat signature
lel
if it goes supersonic, the skin heats up real good. And any time it's in the air, it's got a big fucking jet engine blasting a few million BTUs out the back.
>>73470855
>You mean a fat plane with tiny wings isn't maneuverable?
If you really want to rustle jimmies, point out that it is more maneuverable than an Su-35.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSC_05hG2P0
>>73470044
A-10 is not a fighter
>>73470888
When I was 8 my dad took me to Kay Bee Toys and bought me a model Airplane kit that was under 10 bucks.
Can you guess what I bought?
>>73468326
>F-35A
What about the f35c?
>>73469328
Bullshit. Either will work on it, but barring good countermeasures, you DO have to get a lot closer for the lock.
>>73469454
The difference between theory and practice anon - in theory there is no difference. And in theory no one will ever dogfight again.
>>73469602
>And when the other guys field planes with similar stealth capabilities that can't be targeted by heat/radar guided missiles, then we'll be back to dogfighting with guns and the mk1 eyeball.
Exactly. Boosterfags will never face reality though. I suspect more than a few of them have a financial interest.
>>73469626
>They aren't meant for dog fighting. The F-22 is.
This is actually correct. The last thread the boosterfags were all claiming it was nonsense, of course, and I don't doubt you'll go back to that position momentarily.
F-22s are kind of in short supply
>>73468326
I love it when /k/ comes to /pol/ to shitpost.
I miss the F-14 and the F-18. They were nice-looking planes. These new ones just look like fat silver F-15's with stingray wings.
>>73471009
When you go buy a car at a dealer lot. Do they say okay this month everything costs less. No they total the total cost and say. This is how much it costs. Even if you don't have all the money to give to them right then guess what? It is still how much it costs.
>>73471111
Correct. It's a fucking gun with wings. It's also a tough son of a bitch. You can bet your ass if the F-35 takes a hit like this, and they will with all that heat they make, it won't be coming home.
>>73469829
it's airframe is dated and will break wth the new engines
>>73471465
I would be willing to put my life in the hands of that plane in your picture. I would get into the pilot's seat, no questions asked.
>>73470487
>an AI could too
We're just barely getting there, but there's been some interesting stuff. There was an AI at GTC that was shown a shitton of landscape paintings, with features tagged like clouds, forest, sunset, etc. It wasn't told how to process any of this information, it was just thrown at it overnight. Then at the conference they issued it commands to draw landscapes based on these tags, such as a pastoral painting by telling it to combine a clear landscape and a forest, or a sunset on a beach with clear skies. The machine wasn't programmed specifically to do all this, it was just shown all those images and then given the commands and it could do it.
>>73471447
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out does it?
>>73471076
>How can you be this stupid and still be alive? How do you find food? Did your mother try to abort you a few times?
I should be asking you that since your analogy tries to compare a loan for a house with the estimated cost of buying a house and 55 years of utility bills and maintenance.
>>73471447
>No they total the total cost
They total the cost of what the loan you have to take out to pay them is.
This does not include registration, insurance, gas, taxes, tires etc for your car over 55 years.
>>73470266
if thermal cannot be obtained for a target missiles will switch to UV detection, which engines give off a distinct signature.
>mfw this is our generation's F4 phantom
>who needs a gun in a dogfight when you have aim-7 sparrows?
>2 to 1 odds of survival in vietnam
Wake me up when they build the F-22's unmanned successor.
>>73471977
Phantom's raped the shit out of MiG's in Nam, primarily with missiles.
>>73471659
Okay whatever, you win. The F35 costs 12 million dollars and comes with free chicken. They can stop paying the "utility bills and maintenance" on it any time they want. You win. You fucking win. The only thing that counts is the raw materials used to make it.
>>73471836
$400 billion is what has been spent so far but they haven't even made all the planes they want to yet. That being said the GOV wants to make 1000's of them. I don't think they are on the value menu...
>>73472045
You know nothing, boy.
>>73472216
>stop pointing out my analogy was deceitful
>>73472266
If you bother to look you can actually see how that 'trillion' number breaks down. Around 2/3 of it is operations and sustainment of ~2,400 aircraft over 55 years.
>>73472266
fact is they can print the money whenever they want if they make a deal with the ones who Prints them. But in reality the Cost is just a fukin number m8 its not like they gonna give them shitloads of suitcases that are loaded with dollars worth of Trillion.
>>73468326
oh boy howdy do i love f35 bingo
>>73472377
Yes, most aircraft losses in Vietnam were to ground based air defenses. This does not help your previous post.
>>73470873
that "own homing radar" only activates within 10nmi of target. until it reaches that point it still requires constant correction via data link from the mother craft. If the plane loses lock before then it will use inertial guidance of the target's last known heading and speed as well as bank rate if the plane was turning to make a prediction until it's in range. If the target has fucked off prior to the missile's radar going active then it'll never hit.
>>73472440
55 years... isn't that to long of a time to have a plane in service?
>>73472377
I'm off to sleep...
>>73472608
Depends on upgrades over its lifetime, the F-15 and F-16 entered service ~40 years ago. Hell B-52's are 50+ years old now and not going anywhere.
>>73468326
The F35 is dumb, yes, but it's not the worst solution to the problem facing the US.
The F16 is what, 30, 40 years old? The F-18s are having to go through massive upgrades ( basically becoming something different, the F-18E ) to stay current, and the F-15 is 40+ years old as well. The USAF/USMC/USN is facing a massive cost to replace all their shit. The rest of the world basically stood still from 1990 to 2000, but since 2000...yeah.
They haven't been.
The reality is that Dog fighting is irrelevant. All the fighters that can are so old ( 30+ years ) that the F-35 will see them from so far away it'll just launch missiles and lazily walk away. If they are a threat, the F-15s or F-22s can take care of them.
The F-35 is a replacement for the Harrier, the F-16, A-10 and in some roles the F-18. It's not a """fighter""", it's something entirely different. It's based on the realities of modern combat (tm), simmering stupidity in the middle east, basically. They need a bomber that can defend it's self well enough to not instantly die *coughcoughA10*, and be decently stealthy to fill the hole the F-117 left.
Get over it, dog fighting is pointless, it's irrelevant, the vast majority of fighters need to be "like" the F35. The "halo" fighters, the F-22, F-15, and the Russian equivalents, will never see combat against each other.
Not ever.
Let's see the F-16 pull off what an F-35 can in a CAS role, or a deep strike role....the truth is it simply can't. Nobody the US is going to fight has an airforce that can stand toe to toe, and those that have fighters will get fucked in the butt by the limited number of F-22s and F-15s the US can field. They don't need dogfighters, they need CAS airplanes that are stealthy and that can shoot down MiG-21s and 23s. I'm pretty sure the F-35 can pull that of 99% of the time.
The fighters the US has are responses to what they learned in 'nam. It's been a long time, man.
