What would it take to end any and all faith in Islam completely?
Can it be done in one blow or will it take incremental steps?
C'mon /pol/, we can discuss things here. It's okay.
>>73336031
Muslims believe Mecca is protected by angels, if we destroy it, many will lose their faith
>>73336031
Replace "islam" with "christianity" and you'll understand the answer to your own question.
>>73336031
If nothing could kill faith in crazy cults like $cientology how could you kill the faith of the second largest religion?
Your only hope is to Jew them up with degeneracy. Get the youth to enjoy alcohol and pornography. Get Imams to support gay marriage. Push for female imams.
>What would it take to end any and all faith in Islam completely?
Kill everyone that follows it.
Couldn't you figure that out yourself?
>>73338310
found hitler
>>73338377
No, I'm just pragmatic.
>>73338181
this could be possible
you see, cultural marxism dictates that the oppressors ideals and values should be subverted, so if the oppressor were to change from a white cis christan man to a light brown cis muslim man then cultural marxism would change the faith of islam to be politically correct. thus filling islam with degeneracy and changing the oppressors back and forth.
its an endless cycle perpetrated by the jews
>>73336031
1. Take religion seriously.
2. Use a christian purge in Turkey as an excuse to exile muslims.
3. War with saudia arabia, saudis use extremests. Deport all islamists.
4. Civil war in saudi arabia.
5. Encourage islam heresy.
6. Let Russia wipe out turkey. Liberate istanbul and rename it constantinople. Christianize mosque and namit after putin.
7. Let india fight pakkis and bangadesh.
8. That still leaves egypt and iran to deal with.
9. Have isreal fight Iran but do not come to aid of Isreal. Or wait 3 years to enter war like USA DID in WWII as per zionist plan to cuck europe.
This would weaken islam but wouldnt entirely wipe it our. Still it would give you three centuries of breathing room.
>>73339099
>let russia wipe out turkey
does no one learn from the crimean war?
>>73336031
Make them all read the gospel.
>>73339099
3 and half years.
>>73338181
This thread cracks my shit up. You dumb crosskikes are just like any other jew and completely the same as muslims, yet you're so biased you can't see it. This is the policy jews pushed and it's directly responsible for the record drops in adherents to jewish religion around the world. What the author of this chart failed to realize is that after step 4 comes step 1 again. This age of decay will lead again to true religion and all you fucking jews are going to be forgotten by history.
>>73336031
Can't destroy an ideology just like you can't fix stupid. Unfortunately.
>>73339099
>1. Take religion seriously.
let me stop you right there
no Western country will see this happen so long as jews are allowed to live in our borders
>>73338377
>using Hitler as a slur...
Who are you people and where did you come from?
I've been seeing you pop up everywheres on /pol/ today.... It's blantly obvious.
>>73338377
See, you're doing this wrong. If you want to attack someone on an internet forum, then complimenting them is not the way to go.
>>73337493
It would prove something, but the backlash would be terrible.
>>73340417
Some people need to be sacrificed for the greater good and for the sake of mankid.
>>73336031
Serious question, why has noone blown up the cube?
>>73336031
>Can it be done in one blow
it is going to take many blow jobs to get the men to realize that sex in real life is better than hoping for virgins in the next life (when they're dead)
>>73340417
you mean good
>>73340707
this
>>73340842
ISIS is apparently threatening to do just that. Apparently they can see the irony of Islam criticizing the worship of stones and all the world's Muslims bowing before a stone.
>>73341060
Are they any articles relating to that threat? News articles or ISIS propaganda?
Curious, is all.
>>73341735
Just google "isis threatens to bomb kaaba"
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/10/isis-destroys-shrines-and-mosques-sets-sights-on-mecca.html
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/06/isis-promises-to-destroy-the-kaaba-in-mecca/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/01/isis-destroy-kaaba-mecca_n_5547635.html
http://vestnikkavkaza.net/news/politics/57062.html
>>73340417
Ebola chan being there gives me an idea. We don't need to kill them. Plant a deadly, viral disease there that will kill them off, or better yet, cause a civil war and have them kill each other! God that would be fucking hilarious.
>>73342287
Wait fuck that's not Ebola chan
>>73342367
Yes it is.
>>73342416
Double fuck. I thought Ebola chan had the red cross on her hat, not a blood drop with wings
>>73342070
Neat, thanks!
>>73341060
>All the worlds Muslims
not all dummy
ISIS are the epitome of what happens when you believe in Hadiths.
Quran alone Muslims don't believe Hadiths are trustworthy and nor do they have idols like Sunni and Shia.
You can't stop true Islam, God guides us, Sunnis may be the majority and get the bigger voice and used as the example but they are not doinitrite.wav
They prefer to defend Hadiths that portray Muhammad as a paedophile sadist and their women seem to enjoy being enslaved in sacks and agree to be beaten and stoned is normal.
"Beaten" comes from the word daraba, which also means shun amongst other words, Hadiths promote violence against women so thus they interpret the Quran to fit their agenda then fill in the blanks with stories like "oh there was a hadith written down about stoning people to death but a goat broke into the house and ate the pages" absolute full retard mode activated.
>>73336031
Conversion to Christianity
It's the ultimate weapon against the Muslim enemy. You don't even have to be Christian to support this crusade
>>73339998
Well, stop blaming Jews for you lack of faith.
>>73342824
>that flag
Go fuck a goat, Achmed. And learn the concept of hyperbole - you'll get less ass-pained if you do.
>>73336031
Atheism is the answer.
>>73343188
List of Icelandic accomplishments: Bjork
Allahu Akbar my alien looking friend.
>>73344283
>hurr your country is small therefore you are wrong
I take it you're attempting to make a point. If so, you failed.
>>73341060
>Blow up what's supposed to be the most sacred object on earth
That's fucking retarded! The meteorite in that box was supposed to be used for prayer by the patriarch Abraham and by The Adam himself. It's the most sacred relic in existence (if you're a Muslim), brought to Earth by the Angel Gabriel. Who would ever want to destroy something as historically precious as that?!
>>73344459
who is ass-pained now?! :^)
>>73344761
>if you're a Muslim
nope, purely Hadithists nonsense.
You know if you really wanna wipe out a shit ton use a chemical weapon in mecca? make it some poison that takes a few days to melt a persons insides or some shit, if that is spread in mecca it will cascade out of control and wiipe out a good chunk of them.
Saddly the issue we have is people are now scared of blood, people think the only way is words, and that is why we will fall. They will shed our blood while our useless leaders try to talk. If you anon want to make a difference its easy to start but hard to maintain as you need numbers despite what you are told 1 man can't start a fire, one man will be made an example of and others will shy away, one man can be turned into anything the media wants. You need numbers you need to work together and above all you need to see the consequences and resist when they come for you, which they will come for us all someday.
>>73336031
Easy, just obliterate the human population and replace it with a more intelligent and highly evolved species. Skynet don't believe in that dumb space monkey shit.
>>73345488
>who is ass-pained now?! :^)
Another 1/10. Apparently, you are the one who is ass-pained. If you honestly thought I cared about your attack, then too bad.
Here's what's going on: your pointing out that one country or other is large or small doesn't mean that you've managed to make a point.
Muslims still bow down before the Kaaba. The Kaaba is a holy stone. Islam criticizes this. ISIS realizes the irony and vows to destroy the Kaaba. This remains the case, regardless of how you try to spin it.
>>73345758
>let us show how evil 'Islam' is by murdering thousands of innocent men, women and children.
>on top of the millions the West has already killed
yeah that'll teach em, wont cause a backlash a thousand fold at all.
>>73346068
>The Kaaba is a holy stone.
To be pedantic: a holy stone is embedded in a corner of the Kaaba.
>>73339099
you forgot about the phillipines, they have the largest population of muslims than the middle east
>>73346068
>waffle blah blah
>The Kaaba is a holy stone.
No it isn't.
The black stone is AT the kaaba sharif and is called Al-Hajar al-Aswad and is idolatry I don't partake in thank you.
>>73346141
I will allow your correction as you got in before my post.
>>73346322
>muh pedantry
As expected.
>>73346292
Oh, you will? How magnanimous.
And I will ask that you respond to the point raised instead of dodging again.
>>73346437
LOL. Got those links in the wrong order. Will there be pedantry about that too, or will I get an answer this time?
>>73339710
> Lifeless matter.
What is wrong with things being lifeless? Are you aware life is actually rare and unique? We don't need deities and it doesn't have to go back to a former stage.
>>73346271
>phillipines
>largest population of muslims than the middle east
>>73346437
>>73346507
>this ass-painery
>respond to the point raised
there was a point?
Put it in the form of a question.
Why is pol so resentful and butthurt over Islam
>>73340205
>>73340395
He's joking about the poster's flag you dips
>>73346683
because red pills seems to revolve around relying on Western media portrayals and Islamophobic websites that focus on Hadiths, misinterpreted verses and guess work.
>>73346682
>asking for a response to a point is asspainery
Kek.
So you ask me to repeat the point after I have posted it twice. Never mind that it was that which got you posting at me in the first place. You can follow the links up to see it easily enough. But just as expected, you have nothing of value to say.
>>73338377
reminder hitler loved islam and said he wished germany could be a muslim country
>>73346863
>didn't put his blabbering into the form of a question
I honestly don't even know what you are asking, I will answer you if I knew, if I were hiding I would have just left the thread instead of engaging in banter with you.
>>73346896
He loved the Zionists hadiths version of Islam which as we can see didn't require Hitler, it has spread with the help of EU leaders which poses a threat to me and true Islam, there's a reason they have forced this Sunni interpretation of Islam based on false Hadiths on the West, they want this barbaric sect being a pain in the arse to everybody.
>>73346983
I did not ask you a question. I made a factual statement. To make a point is not to ask a question, you see.
You responded with pedantry trying to refute it, but the point remained. And now you're pretending not to know what this is all about. Run along, now.
>>73346596
correction: indonesia i meant
>>73347393
OK I've looked through the posts, you are still literally whining because I gave a bit of banter that Icelands only achievement is Bjork?!
Wow grow a thicker skin mate, you then go on to say I am somehow picking on you for being a small island, not at all, I am a Quran alone Muslim in a sea of Sunnis and so I am the last to claim that a majority is somehow superior, also Britain is only an island nation.
Do you honestly think I have a problem with Iceland? If it helps you, I don't, I am entirely neutral .... like your grandad was while mine was kicking Nazi arse :^)
>>73347734
fair enough, yes they are quite the majority, I'm no good at statistics so don't know if they outnumber the entire middle East combined but certainly by country they massively outnumber every M.E country individually.
>>73347806
LOL
No you shitskinned imbecile, I already told you that I don't give a shit about that. When you said that I replied quite plainly that you had failed to make a point by going "hurr your country is small". I know that it is, and it honestly is irrelevant.
Go further up and address the point raised there. Protip: I've already told you that it was a point I made in the the very first post to which you replied to me. I actually repeated it elsewhere and you missed it scrolling up.
>>73336031
nuke the Middle East and behead the survivors
>>73348225
Ok lets see
>>73340395
not replying to me
>>73341060
>>73342070
addressed here >>73342824
>>73343188
replied here >>73344283
rebuttals and clarified it was banter
what didn't I address then?
>>73348477
Why are you including posts not addressed to you? And you're leaving out multiple others.
Here you go, moron:
>>73346068
Now let's see and answer.
>Another 1/10. Apparently, you are the one who is ass-pained. If you honestly thought I cared about your attack, then too bad.
Banter we both agree is banter
>Here's what's going on: your pointing out that one country or other is large or small doesn't mean that you've managed to make a point.
Addressed here
>>73347806
and you said here >>73348225
that you weren't bothered by that bantz
Which leaves:
>Muslims still bow down before the Kaaba. The Kaaba is a holy stone. Islam criticizes this. ISIS realizes the irony and vows to destroy the Kaaba. This remains the case, regardless of how you try to spin it.
Which is addressed when I clearly state what the Kaaba is, what the stone is, that I don't worship a stone as it is idolatry, that ISIS are also Hadithists so are hypocrites either way and don't represent true Muslims and neither do Sunnis or Shias.
I honestly don't know what more you want out of me on the subject.
>>73336031
It would take an arab renaissance to end the arab dark ages
>>73348997
>Addressed here
>>>73347806
Gods, you're fucking stupid. You're repeating a post where you showed that you completely fail to understand what was going on.
>and you said here >>73348225 (You)
>that you weren't bothered by that bantz
And again, just cut that shit out.
>Which is addressed when I clearly state what the Kaaba is, what the stone is, that I don't worship a stone as it is idolatry, that ISIS are also Hadithists so are hypocrites either way and don't represent true Muslims and neither do Sunnis or Shias.
I did not say that you worship the stone. I said that you bow down before it. You're being an evasive shit again.
>>73349255
Right, so your point is I bow down before a stone.
OK, let me put this very VERY clearly for a third time.
NO
I
DON'T!
I'm sorry that you are still assuming because Sunnis do that all Muslims do, they also kiss the stone, say Muhammad kissed the stone, the stone is completely irrelevant to me.
Clear enough for you?
If you think by the stone being there means I am bowing before it then you are wrong, you could make the same assumption that I bow before the silk cloths that adorn the Kaaba and you would be equally as wrong.
Sunnis also throw stones at 'Shatan' in the form of a rock and then pray at Muhammads grave which are also not part of the Quran and in fact praying at Muhammads grave is in direct contradiction to the Quran which forbids it.
>>73349683
Sunnis and Shiia and many others. And the historic reason for facing Mecca is the presence of the stone there, even though you claim not to be bowing down before it, you're following a tradition that originated because people were bowing down before it.
>>73336031
The moment they find out that allah is satan in disguise.
>>73350077
>I tell you what I'm not doing
>You tell me I'm doing it anyway
Do you understand the part where I said quite clearly that I am neither Sunni nor Shia?!
OK lets clear this up for you, I do not belong to a sect of Islam. If they put a statue of Satan at the Kaaba it does not mean I am then worshipping that statue either, nor the stone, nor the cloths, nor the dust on the floor inside, nor the Imams stood there, nor if they put a picture of the Queen on the wall.
It is the Qibla I face, even if the Kaaba was destroyed I would still face the direction (Qibla).
Hope that cleared things up.
>>73350800
What do Arab Jews and Christians call God?
I'll save you some time, Allah, have a nice day.
>>73336031
Probably the same thing to end faith in Christianity. Whatever that could even be. I'm not sure if you know what your asking for op.
>>73350924
>Do you understand the part where I said quite clearly that I am neither Sunni nor Shia?!
Yes.
Do you understand the point where I pointed out the origin of your tradition?
Do you even understand WHY this issue was raised in the first place? It is because ISIS claims that doing this thing is idolatry. For those that admit that they're bowing to a stone, they're right.
You're still participating in a tradition that has its origins in idolatry. It's literally like saying "yes these people are bowing before an idol of Moloch, but I'm not one of them. I'm just bowing in the same general direction, but I'm worshiping God, honestly I am!"
It's daft.
>>73351190
except you are believing the Sunnis story, THAT IS MY POINT!
None of there nonsense is in the Quran, it is all in Hadiths written 200-300 years after Muhammad and been debunked over and over again.
Stories like Muhammad arriving in Medina and seeing two men playing chess and telling them it was Haram when Chess hadn't long been invented and not even made its way to that region, utter bollocks mate, You have your stories from Sunnis and Hadith culture.
ISIS are Sunni and you may claim you heard a story that they will destroy the Kaaba and the black stone but you have no sources of this, ISIS do things in accordance to the vile Hadiths, they test Muslims based on Sunni beliefs not on the Quran, this is how they pick who to kill.
They would be the first in line to kiss the stone at the Kaaba.
Yes I am facing the Kaaba for salat (prayer) because that is what is in the Quran, the stone came LATER in the Hadiths.
I honestly can't make it any clearer than that.
>it's daft
Yes, the Hadiths are absolutely stark raving lunacy, don't judge Muslims based on Sunnis, they're doing it wrong.
On the day of judgement Muhammad will say to Allah "Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."" Quran 25:30
What do you think as a non-Muslim that he would mean by that?!
I cannot help what they put at the Kaaba, this was not there at the time of the prophet.
If you pray to God and look up to the Sky could I not accuse you of worshipping Saturn?
>>73351017
No, Jews and Christians worship Yahweh.
Muslims worship Baal (satan, lucifer, isis, etc.)
Walid Shoebat Exposes Lies of Islam Allah is not God but Satan the deciever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhp7Qaj5NSU
Know Your Enemy (Part 27 - Allah)
http://youtu.be/x_s5By7s8z0
Know Your Enemy (Part 28 - The Kabah)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fodMC9oTy7Q
Proving Allah is the goddess Isis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VPO47DeoPQ
Realistically they just need to flood the middle east with degeneracy.
Every man his his price on Earth. They need to hire a set of assasins, and then go around offering the TV networks millions of dollars to secretly give control to the US.
Whoever resists or doesn't get bought out gets assassinated.
Then slowly over 5-10 years put more degenerate shows on TV, Justin bieber, non-hajib wearing things, atheist talk shows and debates etc.
Eventually the next generation will rebel against their parents, and some will be murdered by their parents, give it 10-20 years and slowly we'll wipe our their ideology itself.
>>73352489
>No, Jews and Christians worship Yahweh.
If they speak Hebrew yes.
The English for Yahweh is "God" and the Arabic is "Allah".
>Muslims worship Baal....blah blah
>more Sunni Hadithists nonsense
>Proving Allah is the goddess Isis
Yes well if youtube said so by completely biased sources it must be true.
I'm done with your fruitcake nonsense thank you.
Get back to me when you have consistent religious texts yourself and not Pauline heresy which is far closer to any anti-Christ than anything you can dig up on youtube.
>>73352202
>None of there nonsense is in the Quran, it is all in Hadiths written 200-300 years after Muhammad and been debunked over and over again.
I have seen you claim this, but not show this.
>Yes I am facing the Kaaba for salat (prayer) because that is what is in the Quran, the stone came LATER in the Hadiths.
So you say. But whether the stone was mentioned later in the Hadiths doesn't mean it wasn't there. Protip: the Kaaba is older than Islam, and the stone probably is older too.
>ISIS are Sunni and you may claim you heard a story that they will destroy the Kaaba and the black stone but you have no sources of this,
I posted several sources above.
>Yes, the Hadiths are absolutely stark raving lunacy
At least we agree on this.
NOTE: reposting this, I'm revising my position on Chess argument. Though the antiquity of the Stone in the Kaaba is the primary issue here.
>>73351017
Christians don't call God Allah they call God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Jesus, etc. never Allah that would be heresy
So much taqiyya from the British slime ITT
>>73337493
That would hardly do anything but drive them to more hardline Islam. The kind that ISIS lives by. And they want to blow up Mecca and the idols worshiped there.
>>73352787
>I have seen you claim this, but not show this.
Show what? Sunnis themselves will tell you the Hadiths were compiled 200-300 years after Muhammad.
700,000 Hadiths collected, scrapped 98%(ish) of them to keep the 'authentic' ones, yet still Sunnis themselves will tell you they can't claim all Hadths are authentic because they contradict the Quran and each other.
>states a strawman theory on the black stone based on Hadiths
are you seeing the constant mistake you are making yet?
Show me in the Quran the black stone.
>Actually that's wrong
Show me in the Quran where it says Chess is haram. It says so in the Hadiths.
Again Hadiths, not Quran.
Chess may have come to existence around that century but there is zero mention of it in the Quran.
>I posted several sources above
I'm sorry but do you have a video of them actually saying this?
In fact no, I will even so much as state you are right and they did actually say this, this does not make them any less hypocrites and still Hadithists, all their killing is in accordance to the Hadiths rules like throwing people off buildings and torturing people to death.
They are still Hadithists even if they do spot the mistake of worshipping the black stone.
So you can have that part but the rest of what they do is very much Hadiths, right down to trying to be the people of the mahdi and the black flags which is a Hadith story.
They already believe muhammad flew on a magical animal across the desert, how would you convince them of anything rational?
>>73336031
Time. You literally cannot reason with faith and I don't say that in an offensive manner.
>>73353067
OK the chess thing is irrelevant as its not in the Quran, its the Hadiths anyway.
We will stick to the black stone.
Again this is purely Hadith stories.
In fact I will incorporate the chess bastardised Quran verse.
"O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and stone idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed" 5:90
This is taking the game of chance (playing with that which is forbidden) as an actual GAME of chance, which chess isn't anyway, its a game of skill unlike dice or cards which still isn't what the verse refers to anyway.
But here is the only mention of anything regarding stone worship and clearly it says it is of the devil and forbidden.
>>73336031
should have never allowed the brits and the french to removed the turkish control over islam
>>73336031
Destroy Mecca. Reduce every place where a "final battle" in their myths has been prophesised to a pit filled with the ocean.
Then you'd literally have to obliterate every country that embraced Islam.
Basically, burn half the earth. So sorry, it's incurable cancer like most religions.
>>73336031
Study shamanism to discover what you've already been doing in your life that's magical. You might be surprised. Then study Gnosticism to get your head around some stuff shamanism may not go into detail of. Acknowledge the possibility of many things, ridiculous things, even just to practice this principal. But free yourself from beliefs, as beliefs will not allow themselves to be proven fallible. You must always be willing to kill who you are now to grow spiritually.
>>73354446
Oh shit, I just woke up. I thought OP was a muzzie trying to un-islam himself.
Would delete post for thread relevancy if I knew how.
>>73354153
Do Christians not believe Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine and such?
I'm not even going to address the fact you quoted a Hadith and not the Quran as its irrelevant, if you are an Atheist then you're just a mouth breather who can dismiss anything as you wish anyway so its pointless even posting as its outside your belief system regardless.
>>73336031
Just like the old days. -one final blow
An Malaysian prince just converted to Catholicism the other week.
That alone is shaking Islam.
>>73354028
You know, if you're going to post a response more than 15 minutes later, the least you can do is refresh and respond to the latest post instead of a deleted one. For fuck's sake.
1. What you had not shown was the debunking, not that this is a central issue.
2. The acceptance of the antiquity of the Kaaba is not just based on the Hadiths. :^) Are you seriously suggesting that someone added an idolatrous stone to the Kaaba AFTER the monotheistic religion of Islam was instituted and had been practiced there for 200 years?
3. My argument is not based on the fact that the Quran claims that Chess is Haram. I honestly don't care about the Chess angle, see the post I revised: >>73353067
4. So you claim these news sites are lying? I don't dispute that they're Hadithists, but they're nonetheless claiming that the bowing towards the stone is idolatry.
>>73354707
I will allow you to first read this post then repost any questions given the new information as you didn't sit there slamming refresh as you accused me of failing to do so too.
>>73354331
>>73336031
Islam is a meme.
Just let them in their countries and close the borders.
Why should a man care about what the sand people do?
>>73338377
found Ahmed Abdul
>>73355002
Your more recent post didn't add anything relevant. I already told you that I don't give a shit about the Chess argument.
And I said that the Hadiths are not the only source for the antiquity of the Kaaba.
Neither did you answer my question: "Are you seriously suggesting that someone added an idolatrous stone to the Kaaba AFTER the monotheistic religion of Islam was instituted and had been practiced there for 200 years?"
>>73355095
>Googles "Ahmed Abdul" out of curiosity
>American Ahmed Abdul-Malik Jazz Bassist
>Black of course
>>73346683
Because islam is fundamentally wrong and evil.
>>73347734
carpet bomb the entire country
>>73355216
I have no proof that it was or wasn't at the Kaaba at the time of the prophet.
However, the question is, can you prove IF it was there that:
1) He kissed it
1a) If he kissed it that it was part of a worship
2) That it is part of Hajj for Muslims
3) That stone worship is not idolatry (forbidden) and thus the Hadiths are implying Muhammad committed idolatry.
>>73355840
I will add that this black stone is not mentioned in the Quran again btw.
>>73342287
basically just shower Mecca with anthrax spores. I like it.
>>73339099
>Christianize mosque and namit after putin.
Hagia Sophia is a good enough name as is. Plus it's not a mosque anymore.
>>73339710
>Catholics believe earth is semi-divine
Yeah, no.
>>73336031
Kill all circumcised men and burn all qurans.
>>73355840
>I have no proof that it was or wasn't at the Kaaba at the time of the prophet.
Kind of central to this issue, isn't it. And how would this idolatrous tradition not only have manifested AFTER the institution of a monotheistic religion, but have been accepted by almost all Muslims? You're basically saying that someone fooled just about all Muslims after the monotheistic religion had been practiced for hundreds of years.
>>73336031
Nuke Mecca
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wESpXvwHloc
>>73356681
So by your logic because its in the Hadiths it must be true then?
Lets not forget this is a sect of Islam that believes this not all Muslims, these are people that can't even say the shahada correctly despite it being rather clear in the Quran, they also pray at Muhammads grave despite the Quran saying not to.
There are hundreds if not thousands of ahadiths that contradict the Quran and each other.
Yet because there are some that kiss the black stone not mentioned in the Quran based on a Chinese whisper story written 300 years after Muhammad that only had to be agreed by two people to be classed as authentic that THAT ONE must be true?!
If just one hadithist story can be disproven then why should a story which isn't backed up in any way shape or form by the Quran but in fact contradict the number one rule in the Quran "no idols" then why would you believe it to be true?
So in a way yes I can disprove it, the Quran says no idols, don't worship stones, doesn't mention a black stone, there is question over the origins of the stones placement, we do know it was apparently stolen, broken and placed back LONG after Muhammad, mate we have people today who cant even prove things 100 years ago for certain with all our technology and you expect a bunch of scared Arab villagers to deny what would have been influential powerful people at that time who said "well my great great grandad saw Muhammad kiss the black stone"?!
Come on lad.
>>73357505
>So by your logic because its in the Hadiths it must be true then?
No, the Hadiths don't need to be exact. But there is no reason to suppose that the stone wasn't there before Mohammad arrived and remained there after he started praying there.
>Lets not forget this is a sect of Islam that believes this not all Muslims,
"A sect", in the singular, you say? Surely you mean the great majority, right?
>these are people that can't even say the shahada correctly despite it being rather clear in the Quran, they also pray at Muhammads grave despite the Quran saying not to. There are hundreds if not thousands of ahadiths that contradict the Quran and each other.
Naturally there are. I don't think that there is much doubt that the Hadiths are less than precise.
>So in a way yes I can disprove it, the Quran says no idols, don't worship stones, doesn't mention a black stone, there is question over the origins of the stones placement, we do know it was apparently stolen, broken and placed back LONG after Muhammad, mate we have people today who cant even prove things 100 years ago for certain with all our technology and you expect a bunch of scared Arab villagers to deny what would have been influential powerful people at that time who said "well my great great grandad saw Muhammad kiss the black stone"?!
The question relates to its presence at the Kaaba since before Mohammad and whether someone managed somehow to alter the beliefs of the vast majority of Muslims by adding idolatry to a monotheistic religion that hadn't been there previously. And anyway, on that note, how do you know that the Quran itself is in its original state anyway?
>>73357971
>The question relates to its presence at the Kaaba since before Mohammad
LOL, I mean the stone in the Kaaba.
>>73338377
Oh my, what a great honor you do him!
>>73336499
This is one board under God
>>73357971
I already said I don't know if the stone was there or not, I am saying (and going back to my original point) that I have no proof either way, in fact I can't even state for certain I have to bother facing that Kaaba as I have no proof that is the original 'ancient house', but if it is and I do have to face it then that does not mean I am worshipping anything that is there, not the bricks, not the stone, not the cloths, not the imams, not the roof, nor the floor, if you say I am being tricked to face it to worship it for some dark reason then it is irrelevant as that is not what my heart is doing nor do I recognise that stone as it is not in the Quran, as I already said, they can put a photo of the queen, a devil statue and a bacon sandwich in it, it is not what I am worshipping, it is the Qibla (direction) in which I am still unsure of and researching anyway, Islam should always be about seeking, researching and learning to understand it.
What I do know is that stone worship is forbidden, thus I don't do it, the Quran clearly states that God knows what is in our hearts.
>great majority
I don't see your point here, the majority does not = correct.
Most Christians think they are right too ergo Muslims would become Christians if its all about being part of the majority.
>I don't think that there is much doubt that the Hadiths are less than precise.
Which is why I rely on the Quran which doesn't have anything about a black stone.
>The question relates to its presence...
As I said, I don't know, but what I do know is not to worship it nor anything but God.
Quran alone Islam is an adventure in learning but when I notice something clearly contradicting the Quran, I know to stick a pin in it.
>And anyway, on that note, how do you know that the Quran itself is in its original state anyway?
Oh boy that's a whole new thread in itself lol.
>>73338310
/thread
>>73359083
>I already said I don't know if the stone was there or not, I am saying (and going back to my original point) that I have no proof either way
This is the only central issue that is at stake here. I know that you claim not to be worshiping the stone, you've said that. I'm criticizing the supposed origin of the tradition and its association with idolatrous Muslims.
I'm going with what is more plausible. The antiquity of the Kaaba itself is not disputed and can be traced to non-Muslim sources, and the presence of the stone is implied to be ancient by everyone who talks about it being in the Kaaba. So honestly, I can't see reason to doubt it. Even if the Quran doesn't specifically mention a stone doesn't mean that it wasn't there.
>I don't see your point here, the majority does not = correct.
But that wasn't the argument. The point was only that you claimed that a "single sect" of Muslims believed this, which isn't really an accurate thing to say, is it?
>>And anyway, on that note, how do you know that the Quran itself is in its original state anyway?
>Oh boy that's a whole new thread in itself lol.
So it is.
>>73359618
>Even if the Quran doesn't specifically mention a stone doesn't mean that it wasn't there.
Some Quran alone Muslims doubt the Kaaba even refers to that what is commonly know as the Kaaba today and call it a Pagan building.
Ive never been to it, I am still researching it, for now I tend to face it but don't make it a strict rule but more of a lazy habit until my knowledge is better informed on the actual meaning.
So lets say I am facing the wrong way or facing a satanic rock or something, as my heart isn't desiring that and if there is no specific direction then I haven't done anything wrong anyway, any moreso than if I was a Sunni and faced Mecca and the house I happened to be facing was full of idols of satanic images and such, it just happens to be there, not what my heart is intending on.
From what I understand it is likely the place to face was actually based elsewhere and there has been a lot of misinterpretation and Hadith culture has even in this way managed to affect my default understanding until I am better informed, I am researching numerous things, the direction of prayer or what is at the Kaaba will be addressed soon enough, in the mean time I have no intentions to visit Mecca so its not my immediate problem nor is it out of laziness as I am still comparing numerous resources to try and find the accurate meanings behind 2:143-45.
>The point was only that you claimed that a "single sect" of Muslims believed this
I should have said not all Muslims believed this, you are quite right. But what I am saying is because the majority do something or believe something doesn't make it right which I am sure you will agree upon, did not most people once believe the Earth was flat?!
http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/quran/misinterpreted_verses/manipulation_of_2:143_(P1426).html
>>73360610
If the proper location was somewhere else within the city of Mecca I doubt that that makes much difference to the direction you're facing from hundreds of miles away.
I suppose we need to shelve the discussion if you're still looking into things.
But just hypothetically, how would it affect your beliefs if you found out that the stone in the Kaaba was indeed there in the time of Mohammad and that he accepted the tradition of bowing in its direction as the Hadiths say?
>>73360610
Missed this part.
>But what I am saying is because the majority do something or believe something doesn't make it right which I am sure you will agree upon, did not most people once believe the Earth was flat?!
I did not mean to suggest that they were right simply because they were numerous. Merely that it would be a remarkable thing to be able fool so many of the old and dominant sects with the addition of a pagan rite to a monotheistic tradition, that's all.
>>73361009
>how would it affect your beliefs if you found out that the stone in the Kaaba was indeed there in the time of Mohammad
Lets say after all my research it points to that building being the point of Qibla then as the Quran mentions nothing about the black stone it would be as irrelevant as a brick in the wall on that building as I do not worship nothing at that site.
>and that he accepted the tradition of bowing in its direction as the Hadiths say?
I would bow in the direction if that is what the Quran ultimately says but I would not kiss the stone nor have any interest in the stone at all as others do.
I have seen videos of people crying at it, kissing it and idolising it, which is complete shirk.
If they claim they are only doing so because Hadith says Muhammad did it then even if he did (which is not backed up by the Quran) then they are idolising it still as a point of worship and I'd struggle to not see it as idolising Muhammad too which is also forbidden.
As he even said himself (in the Quran).
You shall all follow what has been brought down to you from your Lord and do not follow any allies besides Him. Rarely do you remember." 7:2-3
"The only duty of the messenger is to deliver the message." 5:99
are fucking muslims invading /pol/ now ? what a time to be alive
>>73361755
I guess the truth as to the origin of the tradition remains to be seen in any case. Till then, thanks for the discussion.
>>73361184
I have a feeling they fell for a test and by me being very reserved on taking the facing of Mecca as what is known today as factual until I am further learned on the subject that I am right to do so, there is evidence of more than one direction (Qibla).
http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/al-salat/qiblah_old_and_new_(P1205).html
For now I merely face East (rough direction of the Middle East) and will ultimately come to a conclusion God willing, but for now it isn't like its laziness, ignorance or blind faith if I get it wrong and its not a major sin or anything otherwise it would be abundantly clear like "don't worship stone idols" or "don't eat of the pig"
>>73362251
You've been great to talk to, cheers.
Peace be with you.
/pol/ just ignore muslim posters , its probably paid reddit shills
>>73342287
i feel like this can be achieved by a tourist who wants to visit Mecca for the "historical value" while being "unknowingly sick"
of course, that's just hypothetical...
>>73354693
That isnt real my friend, or so they say.
http://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2014/07/25/police-warn-selangor-prince-conversion-commenters/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengku_Amir_Shah
>>73363242
alchohol=halal . a picture says more then some words on a wiki page my friend
>>73342287
>cause a civil war and have them kill each other! God that would be fucking hilarious.
I can see you. Stop hiding back there.
