How do we fix education in primary and secondary school so people will actually be taught things again? Should we (partially) bring back classical education?
rote learning for math asap
expel and segregate troublemakers aggressively
give kids job and life skills in addition to academia per-requisites
make the physical education component more integral and use it as a way to instill discipline
don't let the parents dictate what the teachers do
>>55311843
Instead of going by timeline they should teach history by relevance. Not american "I didn't hear it on the news so it's irrelevant", but starting with stuff like Napoleonic wars or ww1 instead of which sumerian guy killed which assyrian guy in which year
This domino shit only makes everything 100 times less interesting and makes everyone misunderstand the subject.
>>55311845
Even better, they should go backwards. A sequence of "why why why why". Why were nazis angry? Then why did germany defend austria? Then why did france and russia ally each other? ecc
Having a background is not important, wanting a background is
>>55311843
Just because you dont like what they are being taught doenst mean they arent being "taught things"
Decentralising the education system would be necessary for any real change of any kind though.
>>55311844
>rote learning for math asap
No
>expel and segregate troublemakers aggressively
Dats racist!!!!! BLAK LIEVS MATR!
Forcing kids to behave disproportionately disenfranchises children of color and cannot be allowed!!!
>give kids job and life skills in addition to academia per-requisites
Actually a good idea.
>make the physical education component more integral and use it as a way to instill discipline
I don't know about more integral but we should require results and minimum fitness. If a kid can't do a pull up, he should be held after school to do rehab style weight training until he is roughly at the same level as the other kids.
>>55311847
>decentralization
Yes, I hate the education bureaucracy, and the teachers's strikes that come with it
>>55311848
>>55311844
>give kids job
How will kids have time to work if they have to study all of this stuff? The smartest kids at my school struggled to make time to study Advanced Calculus and Advanced Physics alone. I'm sure it would be easier if they were taught how to learn at an earlier age, but I doubt that would be possible because of American culture. They should be taught how to think and exposed to professions early on so they know what they're interested and can specialize. Maybe I am just ignorant, but most of the things on this list only seem relevant to somebody pursuing advanced math and/or physics. Teachers are also a problem, so is the whole educational system hierarchy. For the students themselves I think incentive is key. They don't give a shit about school these days because they don't need too, and I doubt that will change since any idiot can get into college, which also needs to be reformed.
remove the humanities
I know this is supposed to be the humanities board but I disagree with it having a place at school. Its something you can do on your own time. You can't really learn any skill in it.
>>55311843
>That image
I can't imagine the dropout rate would be with that kind of reform, but I guess those who actually graduate are more than capable.
>>55311843
Get rid of summer vacation
>>55311844
>make the physical education component more integral and use it as a way to instill discipline
better, bring back the LaSierra High PE program
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yQth3QEXtA
imagine if all schools adopted that program. All Americans would be ripped
We'd be back in the dark ages fast if the OP represented the curriculum. Where's the critical thought that defined the ancient Greeks and general liberal education, and which the Chinese wish they could match? What do folks even think the Greeks are revered for? It wasn't applied science.
>>55311843
>implying the ruling elite would let this happen
>>55311853
This seems like a good way to start. It is achievable and could be a gateway to add more constructive curriculum. Plus, defeating the teachers union for this could lead to many more victories.
>>55311843
>How do we fix education in primary and secondary school so people will actually be taught things again?
There's nothing to fix.
Most people lack the required intellectual capabilities to understand the education described in your pic.
>>55311850
reinforce success. Stream kids based on their skills sets more aggressively. But importantly - make it something the kids can choose whether to commit to. Don't want to enter the academia-specific stream because your performance in baseline humanities met a certain standard? You can opt to stay in standard until you qualify for something else
job skills would obviously be tailored to the professions shaping up for each student. Ideally a sort of apprenticeship could be employed where students are required to find work as a learning objective before graduation (much like the volunteer hours concept employed over here)
the student would emerge with an acceptably well-rounded education in practical matters, and *some* specialist training to whet their teeth and pave the way for work but not too much to fuck them over
I bring up physical education because kids often half-ass it, when in fact breaks between classes is much more important than emphasized. Disciplinary skills like organization and consistency aren't really nurtured as much as they could be, either
>>55311853
The problem isn't enough time, the problem is they are wasting the time they already have because teacher don't give a shit about teaching.
>>55311850
>How will kids have time to work if they have to study all of this stuff?
I believe they meant job-skills and life-skills
well the point i see here being hold, is preparing kids for the future job market and priority of practical skills and science/math over literature and social.
And the implication of teaching all of that to the "average kid" will be possible in the current system is just awfully stupid.
Since we can't come up with an actual system and all kids are different, i proposse:
-School from 8:30 to 17:30 (won't be able to be done in america)
-Good school lunchs (won't be able to be done in america + budget for schools + increase of state controls)
-Kids away from parents, good or bad, kids take morals from state instead of parents ( more state, more budget, better teachers, social engeniering, good for work culture, good for male eviroments, good for "survival of the fitest" and groups idealogies, borderline facist if government wants to)
-Alienates the bad on math but good for other things (social rejects increases)
-way and more specialized teachers (teaching becomes a high paid profession but hard to be one, ideally. Implies +budget +state)
-Unfair for women as they would have to start acting like males ( i have been to a industrial school in my country, i know how it's)
-More autism, less pussified kids
-Women and men starts to be raized as equals
-Suicide rates increase
-less to no vacations
etc.
well you might imagine the rest. It doesn't end good. Shifting away from liberal and social school system might end up in strong and corporative government with loads of super prepared and brainwashed kids.
I think countries should take 1 or 2 years from secondary, and make a new brand tier of education between secondary and universitary and see how it goes. Secondary is useless at that point, it just a paper, at 16 you can just go to work if you want or keep studying
>>55311860
Summer vacation is a relic from when kids would have to take time off of school to help with the family farm. Kids forget a ton of shit after 3 months of not doing anything and a lot of time the next year has to be spent on review.
You don't have to get rid of summer vacation entirely, just reduce it to like 3-4 weeks. Something like how Japan does it.
Also getting rid of standardized testing would be a huge plus
>>55311859
Great ideas in the first point.
Students should be taught job skills by people who have experience in the profession they're interested in. An apprenticeship type program would be ideal, but I don't think public schools should depend on privatized companies to that extent. These programs should also be competitive to the point where unworthy students get weeded out.
Phys. Ed. should be a lot more important. There are important skills that can be learned from it.
>>55311860
I remember reading that more than a 2 week break in education can be bad for children while they're learning. Their skills deteriorate from prolonged periods of not using their brains.
>>55311863
>Kids forget a ton of shit after 3 months of not doing anything and a lot of time the next year has to be spent on review.
Not true.
>>55311864
>Their skills deteriorate from prolonged periods of not using their brains
Online summer homework due each month will fix that.
>>55311865
>Online summer homework
That could work if it was review and would be better if it was every 2 weeks. Most kids would probably just rush to do the work the last couple of days of the month. I think it would be best for all new material to be covered in the classroom.
>>55311864
considering cardio literally grows kids brains, makes happy people, builds self worth and what have you, it's probably as big a factor in raising quality of life as their studies
>>55311843
I actually thing math might be learned in similar way to OP pic in my country, but at the moment I have no time to go through and check every point
>>55311846
asking why without background is pointless
>>55311851
nope, at least basic humanities are necessary
>>55311853
nope >>55311860
>>55311851
Analysis, critical thinking, the seeking of knowledge (research)
Without it you get a bunch of androids
Seriously. The opinions here are absurd, and have to come from kids. Chinese folks who move to America for school have trouble writing opinionated essays, and are confused about the whole concept, because they aren't taught to think critically. Also, the Chinese envy Western innovation and independent thinking.
Meanwhile, Westerners want to become soulless Asian STEM autists, and have been pushing it for years out of fear. Ironic, all that. I'd say we might meet in the middle, but look who has been winning in the last some centuries.
>>55311870
It's possible to rote learn math because it's soulless while also having a rich mental life in the humanities. The actual problem in china is if you think the wrong ideas, they'll get rid of you. It's the political stagnation reinforced to the point of mindlessness, not specifically their education system
>Summer vacation is a relic from when kids would have to take time off of school to help with the family farm
That's ridiculous. What farming needs to be done in the summer? Summer vacation is a thing because the majority of schools don't have air conditioning. If it were that farming thing, the vacations would be during the spring and in the fall for planting and harvest.
>>55311872
>>55311863
Was quoting this fag.
I agree summer vacation needs to go though.
>>55311870
The problem isn't learning STEM, it's how STEM is taught in China.
We should encourage the adoption of the IB curriculum.
>All these people who would get rid of summer vacation
Is that what you would have wanted when you were still in school?
1. Pay teachers decent wages so the educational system won't be full of people too stupid to understand their own finances, or so idealistic that they end up becoming jaded lizard people by the fact that wages are pathetic. Also the maths and sciences are taught by the worst fucking people because smart people in these fields can actually make money.
2. Provide decent food and some outdoor free play a couple times a day.
3. TEACH CRITICAL THINKING STARTING AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE.
4. Have students do as much essay writing as possible. Non-bullshit essay writing is great for thinking.
5. Kill standardized testing. Testing should be much more application-of-knowledge based. Have the students do thesis projects for every year starting around high-school.
6. Teach students life skills like finance, job planning, sexual education, cooking, etc.
7. Make sure the job planning looks at trades, service jobs, white collar jobs, etc, with equal rigor and footing. Consider school to work programs, apprenticeship programs for late highschool as thesis admissable.
8. Make actual college affordable again, but make the admissions process more demanding. Make it possible for people who get degrees in theater tech to go back and learn to weld if it doesn't pan out, instead of becoming office/retail slaves.
9. Expand or preserve the community college system so people who fucked up can make up their education easily. Shit, make it free.
I also think they should probably shorten breaks and have the school days start later.
Require people that want to have a kid go through the same rigorous process that a parent goes through to adopt. Are they financially secure? Do they have a violent criminal past? Ect. If they do not meet most or all of the requirements, then they cannot have kids. Most importantly, make sure parents know the basics of parenting. Politicians are constantly shouting "education is important!" and throw money blindly into public schools. What they need to do is either offer free vasectomies so that Shanequia doesn't pop out her third baby, or offer parenting classes with suggestions on how not royally fucked up to the college slut that wanted to keep her one nights stands baby. None of this will ever happen though because everyone is afraid to tell people how to raise their kids. You can change the curriculum all you want, but if there are shitty parents out there, the kids will still turn to shit.
>>55311878
People will call it racist because it will fuck over most black people
>>55311879
Almost any reform that will bring positive change will be called racist against black people. They need to stop being treated as the victim of the problem and start being looked at as the problem.
>>55311880
I'd tell you to go educate yourself but you don't even have a brain, racist.
We're on the right side of history
>>55311879
I've been curious if you couldn't create some sort of voluntary sterilization program.
A male of legal age of consent can undergo a vasectomy in return for cash and a government stipend. Eugenics can be civil, and if its voluntary no one can claim racism.
>>55311882
Like Sweden?
>>55311843
I'm sure 2nd graders have the mental capacity to learn multiplication, but it's not at the level where I think they'd be ready for anything more advanced by year 3.
The biggest issue I think is associating what they're learning with shit they're interested in.
You can show a young child how addition and subtraction are immediately helpful and they would want to do it.
You can show a child how multiplication can help you count faster (a tray of 3 by 4 cookies is 12). Decimals is where you can lose them if you don't drag in money and really hammer it home. Show them how 2 dimes is 0.2 and 1/5th of a dollar but 1 quarter is 0.25 and 1/4 of a dollar.
You're going to lose them really fucking fast by 4th and 5th grade. Plus kids seem to forget shit over the summer.
I think a LOT of kids would benefit form being introduced to programming and finally see the benefit to math: it's about breaking problems down and understanding logic to solve problems.
>>55311855
>Where's the critical thought that defined the ancient Greeks and general liberal education
I love the greeks, but I hate this meme. Look at all the educated well-rounded aristocrats nurtured in 19th century Europe and America. Did their critical thinking skills help prevent war? Economic catastrophe? The rise of Fascism? No it didn't. It may have produced nice, refined individuals within certain circles, but its impact on society and history is negligible at best.
>>55311885
let me also add a few more examples of "well rounded individuals." Imperial China required bureaucrats to have a rigorous education in the eastern equivalent of the liberal arts (i.e. the Chinese classics and Confucius in particular) to take the state exams and get a job in the imperial government. At the end of the day, though, this didn't stop any Chinese dynasties from collapsing and in the 19th century especially, hindered the introduction of a universal school system or even an imperial exam system founded on more technical lines that could have promoted a generation promoted to economic/military advancement against the West.
The Byzantine Empire's bureaucracy (at least around Justinian's time) also required its officials to have a strong grounding in Classical Greek culture, but again, this didn't do prevent to stop the Byzantine Empire from military defeats and such.
>>55311884
>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rave-mehta/reclaiming-our-world-rank_b_6413910.html
>How I Taught a 6-Year-Old Algebra in Four Months
>I was asked to tutor a 6-year old boy named Brad, who was starting first grade, for an hour a night for four nights a week. Brad was your average kid who came from divorced parents with a single mom who was so busy working to keep food on the table, that she would feed him microwave dinners and use the TV or gameboy to keep him distracted while she worked to keep up with the house. When he was with his father, he received even less attention. He had a lot of suppressed anger which would often erupt into temper tantrums and other behavioral issues including a self-defeating attitude. He also had a hard time focusing on anything except the next game he wanted to play and was diagnosed with ADHD
>When I started with him, his class was learning single digit addition (2 + 3 = 5)
>In addition to solving for basic algebra equations, Brad (remember, he's only 6 years old) also learned to graph various equations, calculate the areas of squares, rectangles, and triangles, work with money, measure time and more by the time December rolled around and his 4 month semester was over
>The social impact on Brad was also fascinating. After 1 month, Brad's original attitude of not wanting to go to school and always coming back sad or depressed, began to shift to being excited and wanting to go to school. After 2 months, when he was asked how his day went, he would always report something positive. After 3 months, he was much more centered, very social and made friends easily. In the 4th month, he exuded confidence and even talked a bully down from harassing his classmates
>At this pace, I believe I could have carried him to calculus by 4th grade
If a 1st grader with fucking ADHD, self esteem and anger problems can go 8 times that pace just fine with just an hour a day 4 days a week, 3rd graders have no damn excuse. Don't underestimate kids.
>education is not simply indoctrination meme
>>55311887
>huffingtonpost
get out
>>55311886
>>55311885
OP's pic's curriculum creates scientists.
And scientists can't into leadership.
You don't need all that many people with advanced mathematics backgrounds. You simply don't.
There's this thing called 'specialization' that goes right over people's heads.
>>55311843
1. Make attendance non compulsory.
2. Make lectures/classes free.
3. Make exams expensive.
So you do what you want for a few months and show up at the exam. You better fucking pass, because its expensive to attend.
If you are very smart, you can attend 30 exams a year, if you are slow and want to get a diploma while continuing to help your dad at his business, you can take a few exams per year.
>>55311843
So basically you want children to wake up at 6, study until 14, do homework until 18, and kill themselves before they get their drivers license?
>>55311862
>Kids away from parents, good or bad, kids take morals from state instead of parents
I'm also strongly attracted to this idea. A lot of parents teach their kids pure ignorance. Despite the pure insanity of the idea, I've fantasized that the state would pay professional parents (either one or two) a nice salary and who have spent actually learning the subject through apprenticeships and schooling to actually be qualified in parenthood. Since the parents are dedicated to it as a full time job, they could raise maybe 10-15 children at a time. To weed out abuse or incompatibility, the state would send in assessors on occasion or maybe even install cameras in homes (mind you the state is not watching all the time, but the cameras would allow for random spot checks so as to weed out abuse) to assess parents on their performance. If the parent is deemed unsuccessful, the state would give them advice on techniques or a series of warnings. If bad at their jobs they would be removed and replaced by a new "parent," although this transition would not be gradual so as not to distress the children. The birth parents, on occasion, would be allowed to visit their children if they wanted, but they wouldn't be allowed to raise them.
The professional parents would also serve as mentors/teachers. Of course the whole problem is that this system could be exploited for the purpose of indoctrination. I don't think this would be terrible, because I think such a system would promote social cohesion and raise healthier kids? so what does /his/ think?
BALGARIA NA TRI MORETA
>>55311855'
>Where's the critical thought that defined the ancient Greeks and general liberal education
>"Let no man enter WHO IS UNEDUCATED IN MATHEMATICS"
>~sign in front of Plato's Academy
The humanities are worthless if you don't have the reasoning skills from mathematics to parse them with. The biggest problem with the humanities today is the horde of uneducated idiots who are entering it that don't understand shit and end up only spouting fanciful sounding nonsense. Just take a look at the epitaph of the humanities made up of post-modernism, relativism, and "muh feels" shit of the 20th century.
>>55311895
Wrong thread, Muhhamad Kodjaachmed.
>>55311890
>And scientists can't into leadership.
not true. if history has taught me anything, it is that leadership cannot be taught (though to be fair, experience probably does help). So regardless of what the children learn, whether it be science or history, there are bound by sheer statistics to be leaders among them.
>>55311890
China says hi
>>55311887
Surprise, you give kids attention and undivided attention they fucking flourish.
Hmm. Maybe every kid just needs 1 on 1 time with instructors/tutors while the bulk of school is still 1 teacher many students?
I've lost track of the number of times I helped my younger siblings with homework that they just didn't get by reteaching it to them. Their attitude about the current subject went from "this is impossible, I don't care about it anymore" to "this shit is easy, look at me do it nine times".
So more 1 on 1 time? Should schools have free private tutor sessions during in-school hours for every student?
>>55311894
>would not be gradual
would be*
>>55311899
>party politics
>relevant
>>55311899
>Those cunts.
>Elected
Also the Politburo is China's real leader. Which is a collection of a lot of people from Sciencefags, De Facto businessmen and PR persons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy
>>55311862
>Unfair for women as they would have to start acting like males
what you mean by this? I like manly women, wouldn't be so bad desu
>>55311904
>>>/reddit/
>>55311862
>>55311894
The jews sorta did this when they were settling Israel after the world wars.
They went all out practical, too. You'd go to the common room in the morning to get clothes, wear them during the day, then return them in the common room when you are done.
Kibbutz communities are the closest people ever got to communism, probably.
>>55311878
How do you punish Shadynasty when D'Brickashaw impregnate her and she pops out her 4th illicit child? Don't you realize just getting rid of the entire welfare state will accomplish yur desired ends without all the money and hassle it takes to run such a program(along with not being classified as genocide)?
>>55311907
I should have added that bit. But from what I recall about it a lot of mentally ill people were misdiagnosed. Also, mind you, the system I am proposing would create a professional system of parenting that requires high qualifications and a good salary. It would be the ultimate division of labor. It would free up society from having to take care of kids and it would free up the adult population's time which they could dedicate to being more productive (not the be all and end all of life but still useful) and give them a lot more leisure to pursue their own interests.
>>55311903
>woooo! Electoral rubber stamp! totally means a damn in this context...
>>55311908
forced vasectomies or tube tying m8. A funny anecdote: my mom is a gynecologist/ivf doctor and alot south americans who come in "infertile" actually were given hysteroctomies or tube ties by their abortion doctors in their home countries lmao
>>55311843
Simulated discussion from 6 months after this "STEM reform"
>"How can we fix education?"
>>"Maybe we shouldn't have let a bunch of autistic antisocials who haven't been near a primary schooler in two decades - by court order - decide on an education plan."
>>55311909
>It would free up society from having to take care of kids and it would free up the adult population's time which they could dedicate to being more productive
So it would free up people from doing things they are biologically programmed to want to do and give them more time to work, something nobody likes.
>>55311909
Why on fucking earth do you think the state is capable of this responsibility?
>>55311912
this tbqh
>>55311911
>Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part1; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
>>55311870
>Chinese folks who move to America for school have trouble writing opinionated essays, and are confused about the whole concept, because they aren't taught to think critically
citations, friend, or else this is just a useless anecdote. just studying chinese history over the past 50 years and you see there are plenty of innovative and critical thinkers, regardless of the political system.
>Western innovation and independent thinking
I have to bring up the example of Japan because it has produced fantastic and innovative scientists in spite of its "soulless" school system. STEM principles of experimentation and empiricism/inductive method, mixed with a bit of luck or making intriguing connections (which come from deep familiarity of a subject, regardless of what it is), is the key to technological innovation.
there are plenty of soulless humanities majors in my experience. I see plenty who drink themselves to stupidity on weekends and do their readings at the last minute. That doesn't produce innovation. Nor does the pettiness and vindictiveness of our academia promote critical thinking either. It's ultimately STEM that will produce the technological advances that will better the lost of society. And I say this as an passionate fan of history.
>>55311843
Teach kids how to learn. How to memorize, remember things, so that instead of spending days to remeber a series of events or a formula they can do it within an hour or less. That alone would make it possible to fit so much more stuff in the curriculum it's not even funny. The OP pic would actually be possible. Right now, it isn't.
Also for non-English speaking countries, English lessons should be completely overhauled. Right now they're useless in most of them.
And at least get humanities up to date, with properly sourced textbooks. Right now you'll have to re-learn 3/4 of the stuff once you get into university.
>>55311903
>you need to be elected to be a leader
Also most of them are better educated than American leaders:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo_of_the_Communist_Party_of_China
Xi Jinping
chemical engineering
Ma Kai
economy
Wang Qishan
Chinese history
Wang Huning
French
Liu Yunshan
teacher
Liu Yandong
chemistry
Liu Qibao
Xu Qiliang
piloting and military
Sun Chunlan
clock maker
Sun Zhengcai
agronomy
Li Keqiang
economics and law
Li Jianguo
Chinese literature
Li Yuanchao
mathematics, economics, law
Wang Yang
economics
Zhang Chunxian
Zhang Gaoli
economics
Zhang Dejiang
economics and korean
Fan Changlong
Military
Meng Jianzhu
Mechanical Engineer
Zhao Leji
Philosophy
Hu Chunhua
Chinese language and literature
Yu Zhengsheng
EE
Li Zhanshu
Guo Jinlong
physics
Han Zheng
economist
>>55311910
It does. It means you were able to sway the masses and convince a lot of people in backing you. Social skills.
As compared to China, where its basically "Which of us gets to chair this party for the moment?"
Straight STEM education will leave you lacking in that.
>>55311884
>>You're going to lose them really fucking fast by 4th and 5th grade
I remember doing "oh noes, ink spilled on some student's worksheet. Find the covered up numbers that make his answers correct" worksheets before ever learning algebra in the 4th grade. Using letters isn't that big of a leap.
>>55311917
Do you know how high the student suicide rate is in Japan?
>>55311886
>they were educated but bad things still happened, so lets not educate
Yeah, lets have illiterate pig farmers run the nation!
>civil engineers still build bridges that fall down so learning civil engineering is worthless for engineering
>>55311914
Like I said, it is an insane fantasy of mine. But I don't think that's a good argument desu. The aggregate decisions of millions of people isn't somehow superior or inferior to the state here. Many parents are clearly incapable of raising children, as taken by the shameful persistence of mental illness, child abuse and many other things. I tend to believe, however, that the wealthier families raise better kids because they have more resources to dedicate to them to help them learn and therefore, be more successful. But this doesn't alleviate the suffering of the masses of poorer children with fewer opportunities. The creation of a professional parenthood would be an equalizer and free individuals from the burden of raising children. You might not see raising children as a burden, true. But I think this has to do with the persistence of Christian memes that praise families and childbirth. Clearly, though, the fall off in fertility in the West is showing that these memes are dying out anyway and a lot of people find childbearing too expensive and time consuming in an industrial society.
>>55311913
Like I said, productivity doesn't necessarily the end game here. But certainly, freeing up adults from the burden of raising children will make them more productive, just like shoemaker doesn't spend three hours of his day making rubber boots. And the more productive a society, the better the living conditions.
>biologically programmed
we aren't "programmed" to do anything m8. this is very reductionist. So somehow, were programmed to go to school, labor at a job, pay taxes, produce cultural works, enforce laws on monogamy or polygamy. No. We do all this because humans before us set up all of these things and now expect us to participate to keep the system running. It's also a fallacious to say that just because we are "programmed" to want children, means that it is somehow better for society or even for individuals themselves.
>>55311923
You're misreading my argument! I only said that liberal arts is not all it's made up to be. I was making an argument for the predominance of STEM over it.
... you clearly have no clue how school works.
Geography in ONE YEAR ? And after that, nothing ? You do understand geography is a bit more than learning countries and rivers, right ?
History of "the world and Europe up to 1930" ? First, why 1930 ? Second, have you any ideas how it would go ?
"So the Mesopotamians invented writing then suddenly Pyramids but the Greeks were invaded by the Romans who got rekt by Germans, thought Clovis converted while Islam somewhere and Charlemagne burnt Irminsul and VIKINGS, William conquered, crusaders crusaded; century war didn't centured, plague, Renaissance, Medicis, fall of Constantinople, Colombus went on a boat, wild protestants appeared, England goes kekoohead, France goes absolute, HRE goes nowhere, REVOLUTIONS, Napoleon give everyone a big scare, Bismarck shit on France, French vengeance WW1, economical crisis.
Tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, I have butchered History to oblivion and I don't even see how I could teach just what I said in a single year, even with 5 hours a week.
>>55311922
Sometimes I forget that 4chan is made by and for weebs, but it always finds ways to remind me.
>>55311878
>how do we lower our birthrate as much as possible?
>>55311922
Of course, it's terrible. But that's the sad fact of our world, especially in a resource poor nation like Japan and Korea for that matter. In order to compete in the world economy, they need highly educated workforces, and not everyone is naturally proficient in rigorous subjects like math and engineering. Nevertheless, the pressure is so high to study these subjects that most students study them anyway. Of course it's tragic about the suicide rate, but at the end of the day, many of these students DON'T commit suicide and they come to master their subjects through sheer will, which is admirable. Anyway, we have plenty high suicide rates in our country; not among the students of course, but among the hundreds of thousands of middle aged men living rust who failed to get a high school education, the suicide rates are SOARING.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/health/death-rates-rising-for-middle-aged-white-americans-study-finds.html?_r=0
>>55311843
The Problem with History education is that you just don't have enough time and there is just too much history.
So you either cover everything in a super-vague fashion or a small selection of random topics in depth.
>>55311924
>rubber boots
i mean gloves
>>55311930
>So you either cover everything in a super-vague fashion or a small selection of random topics in depth.
I'd rather super vague desu. Specially one geared to how various areas in the world connected.
Small selection leads to inane shit like "Black History Month" or studying only your country's history. History ought to give you an idea of the whole human condition and not just your tiny corner/group of the world.
>>55311932
>studying only your country's history
Well, when you're from France, studying just your country is kinda enough (except for Antiquity)
>>55311916
lol, in the scenarios were proposing, I'm sure we are already breaking a lot of international conventions
>>55311934
>>55311932
but what history amounts to in school is the indoctrination of nationalism
>>55311935
oops meant for
>>55311930
It is plainly an issue of economics and incentives. If teachers and schools compete with each other they'll actually put some damn effort into getting results they can use to attract parents and the whole mess would fix itself.
>>55311933
Ah, French arrogance.
>>55311938
It's not arrogance, it's a fact France was in the middle of the most important events for most of the world History.
I don't know for you guys, but prior to going to uni I didn't learn a single thing in school. I used to always doze off and think about something else. Everything I learned, I learned on my own.
Imo, school is useless.
>>55311937
I'm skeptical. Schooling is not very profitable in the first place. And in your scenario the quality of education would be determined on how much your able to pay. You'd get the exact same problems then; the poor won't be able to afford good private schooling while the rich will be able to.
>>55311939
Of European History. I dunno how France explains the rise of civilization in South Asia or how Confucianism created a lot of government structures in East Asia.
>>55311942
>the rise of civilization in South Asia or how Confucianism created a lot of government structures in East Asia
and you need to know that why ? sure it's interesting but it should be personal interests, not school programs.
>>55311926
your narrative is pretty much how history is taught in american today senpai.
>>55311940
>Imo, school is useless.
Then let's fix it
>>55311912
>>55311915
t. butt hurt teachers that couldn't pass the 1st grade
>>55311943
Read my earlier posts
>Specially one geared to how various areas in the world connected.
Which includes, of course, how various civilizations developed.
>>55311843
- Be harsher with those children caught bullying others (once you give them their first burning, explain the consequences bullying may have on the development of the class peer being targeted, if such doesn't work proceed to issue the child a suspension and removal from the class of the bullied student. Moreover, if such extreme measures don't work, proceed to expel the student and cooperate with other schools to have a database of bullies). This leads to an improved class environment and thus increases the motivation of the student
- Organize 1 to 1 weekly tuition with the students to work over the areas they may struggle with
- Reintroduce Latin into the classroom. Give the students the opportunity to choose between continuing with Latin or have them starting to learn Ancient Greek
- Introduce billingual education (subjects taught both in English and in a second language such as Spanish, French or even Mandarin)
- Weekly assessments of the students and in case of any source of concern, sit down with the parents to discuss it
- Motivate the love towards learning in the student
- Reinforce success
- Decent meals and shorter, more evenly spaced breaks between classes (5 to 10 minutes per class + a 1-hour long lunch break)
- Essay writing skills taught from the end of elementary scool
- Make sure the job planning looks at trades, service jobs, white collar jobs, etc, with equal rigor and footing. Consider school to work programs, apprenticeship programs for late highschool as thesis admissable
- Ditch standarized testing and replace it with projects that the students need to complete to pass the year
- Pay teachers decent wages and change the perception towards teaching as a high paid profession but one which at the same time is incredibly hard to get into
>>55311875
No, that shit is basically like every fucking other school system only with more demagogical bullshit thrown into it.
>>55311948
*warning
>>55311843
I think one interesting approach would be to start teaching mathematics a lot later. No math classes before fifth grade.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201003/when-less-is-more-the-case-teaching-less-math-in-school
There was one experiment with this and it was quite promising. The kids performed better in math than the control group by junior high, especially in tasks that required reasoning.
If we want to fix education, maybe we should look at what other countries are doing? I know the Singapore system won't work because working kids to the bone is not really sustainable. There are systems that produce better results with a similar workload per student, so maybe it would be useful to look at what makes them special.
>>55311948
>>55311949
I prefer burning
>>55311869
Not him but I can do just fine on these areas without humanities. All I remember was failing my humanities subjects (and generally slacking in them).
>>55311950
I can't remember who but some famous mathematician in history wasn't taught mathematics until he was like 17 or something,
>>55311948
>Reintroduce Latin into the classroom.
As someone who has studied both Latin and Ancient Greek in highschool, I should warn you this has a very high chance of failing brutally. As every language taught in HS, the teachers will overly focus on the grammar and produce students who, after 5 years of study, will not be able to navigate the language without the use of a dictionary, and even then they'll struggle hard.
Unless it is taught as a living language with a huge focus on actually using it, latin will not be assimilated and you will have wasted many hours on a mildly pointless endevour.
>>55311944
in one year ?
>>55311954
yes, in world history classes taught in 10th grade they are. The rest of our history courses in the previous years focus on american history ad nauseam. But I agree that history should not be taught for one year only. But our system is so broken that it's as if that were the case.
>>55311932
"Black History Month" is the joke of the school system. The most it amounts to is talking about Rosa Parks on the PA or a shitty assembly.
>>55311844
>rote learning for math asap
Fuck off with that shit. That's why math education is in this abysmal today. All these fuckers can barely do basic arithmetic nevermind plug and chug and they want to help their kids learn math. If I show them a simple calculation I did, they can't follow at all and sometimes even think it's wrong because that's not the way they were taught.
>>55311954
This is how history worked in my Middle/High School.
7th Grade- "Ancient Civilizations"
8th Grade-"American History"
9th Grade- "World History" (We started from the French Revolution and worked backwards)
10th Grade- Here, there were 2 world history options- AP World and World History
11th Grade- American History (Normal or AP)
12th Grade- DC History and United States Government (Normal or AP)
As you can tell, I was a part of the DCPS, but this is a good way to tell how history classes are run in the U.S. it's not all that great, when looking at it critically, because it jumps from subject to subject with no cohesion. Add in summer break and it kills all logic to history.
>>55311924
>go to school, labor at a job, pay taxes, produce cultural works, enforce laws
Thats culture.
>raising children
Thats biology.
Surely you arent stupid enough to believe those are the same.
>>55311959
some of it is biological imperative, but obviously those imperatives are not strong enough that women in industrial societies have one or no children in society today. in other words, the desire to raise children and culture are much more related than you think senpai
>>55311918
>Teach kids how to learn.
This is a meme. Some people are naturally talented and can learn very easily/quickly. Some people are dumb and need a lot more time, even with your "amazing modern pedagogy".
>>55311953
Latin isn't a spoken language.
The aim of latin classes is not to teach you how to speak or read latin fluently, it is to teach you about etymology, some latin culture/history, latin philosophy and the logical system and construction of the language (hence why, at least in my country, most of highschoolers who study latin have chosen a scientific course and are attracted to the logical system and reasoning about the language) and its influence on our current language's construction.
>>55311958
>DCPS
>duvalschools.org
>>55311908
While I'm not a big fan of welfare, I still think it's needed. Sometimes people do fall on hard times and need help. Saying "get rid of welfare!" expecting to solve all the problems, is the right equivalent of a leftist saying "everyone should be equal!" There will always be poverty, it's just how things are. You can't have rich if there aren't any poor.
But back to my main point, getting rid of the welfare state will not fix shitty parenting. I've known plenty of families who make good money and still suck ass at parenting. How the fuck do you expect your kid to read if you haven't picked up a book since high school? People blame teachers and shitty schools for the shitty grades our kids have but they never blame the parents.
>>55311911
That's fucked up and hilarious at the same time. But forced tube tying /vasectomies would get moral fags all bothered. It's like the other anon said, you need to offer vasectomies for cash. I rememeber there's some white lady that had a program that was pretty much that. I think it was $500 if you got snipped. She was actually a liberal, ironically. She adopted a bunch of ghetto babies and didn't want other ghetto babies to be born. I'll post the link later if this thread is still alive.
>>55311961
Then we should change our way of teaching to accomadate this. When I was in school, these teachers pretty much taught things 3 times, if you didn't get it, you'd be labeled a retarded or ostracized from the class. It wasn't until I was an adult and actually taught myself hobbies and math that I realized I had to do shit hundreds of times before I became decent at it.
Public Schools are a sham because they think they can cram all this information into kids when they're just trying to get aabetter test score. Not to mention that if the parents don't encourage the kids, the whole thing is hopeless. And let's face it, most parents, even those not on welfare, use public schools as an extended version of day care.
Year long school system, get rid of elementary/middle/high school, shift everything to one (segregated) campus.
Start teaching critical thinking as soon as possible (kindergarten/1st grade).
Make sure kids are capable of doing basic arithmetic before middle school.
Teach relevant history, make ancient history an elective rather than a required class.
For the love of god make sure students can run a mile, make PE at least somewhat physically demanding. Also teach kids how to fucking eat properly if they don't want to work out.
Most importantly, WE NEED TO TEACH BASIC LIFE SKILLS. I graduated high school two years ago and I had no idea how to do shit like taxes or how to properly budget my income.
>>55311967
>not knowing how to do taxes
Taxes aren't incredibly difficult. They give you a line-by-line guide on how to fill it in. The largest problem is all of the additional forms you need to fill out in addition to the 1040.
>>55311968
Instead of teaching taxes, the system should just be easier to navigate. The need for services to render even the poors taxes is an endemic problem of the system.
>>55311968
Yeah I had my parents navigate me through the process one time when I got my first apartment, It was a lot easier than I thought, but I still should have known how to do it.
>>55311965
>do shit hundreds of times before I became decent at it.
Eh? That's highschool mindset. Once you reach college you don't have the luxury to do that, you've got to understand things fast.
>>55311967
>For the love of god make sure students can run a mile, make PE at least somewhat physically demanding.
I think PE needs to encourage progression more strongly. Give kids actual physical training and show them that if they put in the work they can get better, not just having them play sports for an hour and having the weak and the fat kids never get any better.
Possibly make art education a bit more rigorous as well. Obviously there's much more to art than a realistic representation, but so many people believe they can't draw because they've never had any proper instruction. Every kid in elementary school loves drawing, and nearly all of them stop by the time they're in high school.
>>55311972
Weighlifting classes for the older students would be cool.
>>55311843
Why start with geometry so late?
Edfag here.
OP should refine the question by specifying what's wrong with education in the first place.
In the US, the educational system is loaded with too many things that are completely irrelevant to it's mission, as a distributor of general social services. Safety, day care, youth crime prevention, ect.
There's also too big of a gap between the things taught in school and the skills needed in the workforce.
>>55311877
Unfortunately, the current gestalt is generally moving things in the opposite direction.
Realistically, we can't raise salaries, drop student fees, and expand the quality and scope of our programs without a massive, massive increase in spending that the taxpayers simply won't go for.
ITT: a bunch of a dumbfuck academics in their ivory tower prove to everyone that a philosopher king society would be worse than communism.
>that dumb cunt saying the state should take away kids and indoctrinate them
Yeah what could go wrong Mr.Stalin/Hitler.
Anyway the most important thing that kids should be learning is how to use a computer and become extremely proficient with them as, even right now, one's success in society will be based around their computer skills
Secondly children should learn useful skills. Kids are not stupid and they can tell when they learn something if it is useless or not. For example, look at children learning pure math. Pure math is absolutely fucking useless, unless you go into higher stem, therefore society would be better off if children learned how balance their finances and understand how to make investments.
>that other dumb fuck saying they should learn Latin
Thirdly physical education and fitness needs to be mandatory and be treated as important as any other subject.
Fourthly children in their final years of school should take a year long class about reading the "Law of Success" and following its principals.
Society would see massive improvements if children learned finance, history of their people, useful stem subjects (such as biology and computer science), learned how to properly read and write, understood how their government functions, took physical health extremely seriously, and actually had a general idea how to create their own happiness.
>>55311976
Anon, there are five classical aspirations for education
Perennialism, essentialism, progressivism, social-reconst, and existentialism. All of these are equally valuable to education.
Segregation for real
>>55311978
>People that have no idea about education
>talking about what they think a study says
Here, let me give my unqualified opinion on what feminists study say. It is next to impossible to quantify anything that happens in the classroom due to the amount of variables. There is a cautious correlation, but that can easily turn.
>>55311979
Why doesn't it make sense to group those who learn more similarly together {there is sufficient hereditarian evidence of their existence) and best maximize the market instead of having to disadvantage the uppers for the sake of the lowest common denominator?
>>55311980
Because education studies are plagued with the educator's feelings impacting grades. It's why boys scores are all over the place. Some studies show that girls are better at math, some say boys are better.
There was even a study that said that boys often are the most perceptive of being raised in a poor environment. They go to school with small behavioral problems compared to female students so the educator watches boys more closely and is subjective in their grading.
The same can happen in a classroom for women, that if you put women together in a class the educator might look to grade them as doing better because they have their attention on them instead of the boys.
>>55311978
Where are boys supposed to meet girls then?
>>55311843
You'd see a large improvement in general if there was some quality control when it came to teachers and student's were actually disciplined.
>>55311982
In their town when they have free time.
>>55311948
>Reintroduce Latin into the classroom.
Yes! Latin needs to be a primary focus in early years. It instills a remarkable amount of logical thinking and at the same time allows students to study ancient literature on their own time to see perspectives of beauty.
As a linguist, I think introducing a requirement of rigorous foreign language is really important.
I highly agree with everything here.
Also, I think we should enforce philosophy at a very young age. Political philosophy, existentialism, etc.
Possibly religious studies, but treat it more as a historical unit than something to be believed in. Students may choose to devote to the religion if they please on their own time.
Allow for complete freedom of speech and individuality.
The amount of homework given should be accommodated to how much each individual student understands. This should be easy to keep track of with modern technology. I have no idea why this hasn't been implemented yet.
>>55311843
OP, in general, I think that the analysis of literature and words is almost equally important as math, even in a technocratic education system as the image suggests.
People should be trained to be polymaths and rigorous in all they do, but at the same time, I think there should be a lot of freedom so that individuality can develop. Students shouldn't have to be all the same.
>>55311982
All sex is rape, all boys should be locked up, outlaw heterosexuality, patriarchy is the shit!
>>55311971
Come on anon, you can't honestly say college kids understand the shit they're learning. College is just a game of how quickly can I learn this shit, pass the test, and forget this knowledge. That's why unless they're in academia, most college grads don't even read; they're burnt out.
>>55311974
Synthetic Geometry is dead. Its sole reason of prominence was because it was the only mathematical subject that could be rigorously justified from axioms up to the ~19th century. Discrete math is far better to introduce proofs and reasoning and more useful to boot.
>>55311908
>welfare bogyman
The problem is abuse, not welfare itself
>>55311918
>How to memorize
Worthless
>>55311941
>You'd get the exact same problems then; the poor won't be able to afford good private schooling while the rich will be able to.
And this is different from right now how?
Democratic Education combined with collective child-rearing.
>>55311976
>that dumb cunt saying the state should take away kids and indoctrinate them
it was fantasy, but still, your argument is just a knee jerk reaction. your assumption is that somehow, children aren't already indoctrinated in schools already, which they are to some extent. Secondly, parents of all religious and political convictions effectively indoctrinate their children too, which is just as bad for society. Just look at the partisan mess our congress is in today. This is the result of the two sides (though I'd argue one more than the other) and the voters who put them in power being so indoctrinated that they don't see the value of compromise or bipartisanship anymore.
>>55311950
>I think one interesting approach would be to start teaching mathematics a lot later. No math classes before fifth grade.
We didn't even teach math in America before WWII which lead to all the great scientists being European expats.
>>55311990
in states that have good public education systems, like new york or california, anyone in theory can get a decent education whether rich or poor. But your scenario already exists where I live in Florida. Taxes are very low here, but in return we get a terrible school system that pays nothing to its teachers or its schools. In order to avoid this system, the rich don't send their kids to expensive private schools, whose teachers are paid equally as shitty because private schools are run like businesses and cut corners whereever they can. In fact, this is why it is easier to become a private school teacher than a public school one; you don't need as many qualifications and they also pay less
>>55311984
this. school is not supposed to be about dating. it is a distraction which is sure to pull down boys' grades imo. if a boy doesn't have to obsess over his crush (especially cause tv kids shows encourage this nonsense) during class, the more time he will actually spend listening to what the teacher is saying
>>55311989
welfare abuse is really much smaller than people imagine. the only reason people are suspicious in the first place is because of the visceral fear "muh nignogs stealing my hard earned money," despite the fact that poor whites take out a disproportionate amount of welfare money
>>55311958
for me it was
6th grade- US history up to 1800
7th grade- US history 1800-1860
8th grade- US history 1860-1939
9th grade- European history up to 1918
10th Grade- AP World History and AP Psychology
11th Grade- AP US History and AP US Government
12th Grade- AP Economics and AP Comparative Government
>>55311993
What? We totally taught math in America before WWII.
>>55311950
>In sum, Benezet showed that kids who received just one year of arithmetic, in sixth grade, performed at least as well on standard calculations and much better on story problems than kids who had received several years of arithmetic training
Well no duh. The point of learning arithmetic isn't to become great calculators (and the profession of "calculator" is long dead) but to understand the operations and what they do. Grade schoolers, and whoever just recently learned it for that matter, will be far better than engineers and mathematicians in arithmetic because of how fresh it is in their heads and how much practice they've had in it recently.
Rather than starting late, finish earlier. Rather than spending 8 years to get to algebra, follow the OP and do it in 4 and make all math pass 8th grade calculus optional.
>He complained that over the years new subjects were continuously being added and nothing was being subtracted, with the result that the school day was packed with too many subjects and there was little time to reflect seriously on anything
Bullshit. We've been doing nothing but dropping shit year after year with the promise of making room for "more" without the "more" ever coming.
>>55311995
What about gay people?
>>55311998
It was horribly gutted in the early half of the 20th century
>According to Kilpatrick, mathematics is "harmful rather than helpful to the kind of thinking necessary for ordinary living." In an address before the student body at the University of Florida, Kilpatrick lectured, "We have in the past taught algebra and geometry to too many, not too few."
>Progressivists drew support from the findings of psychologist Edward L. Thorndike. Thorndike conducted a series of ""experiments"" beginning in 1901 that cast doubt on the value of mental discipline and the possibility of transfer of training from one activity to another. These findings were used to challenge the justification for teaching mathematics as a form of mental discipline and contributed to the view that any mathematics education should be for purely utilitarian purposes. Thorndike stressed the importance of creating many "bonds" through repeated practice and championed a stimulus-response method of learning. This led to the fragmentation of arithmetic and the avoidance of teaching closely related ideas too close in time, for fear of establishing incorrect bonds. According to one writer, "For good or for ill, it was Thorndike who dealt the final blow to the 'science of arithmetic.'"
>Kilpatrick's opinion that the teaching of algebra should be highly restricted was supported by other so called "experts". According to David Snedden, the founder of educational sociology, and a prominent professor at Teachers College at the time, "Algebra...is a nonfunctional and nearly valueless subject for 90 percent of all boys and 99 percent of all girls--and no changes in method or content will change that."
>In 1915 Kilpatrick was asked by the National Education Association's Commission on the Reorganization of Secondary Education to chair a committee to study the problem of teaching mathematics in the high schools. The committee included no mathematicians and was composed entirely of educators.
>>55312001
>Kilpatrick directly challenged the use of mathematics to promote mental discipline. He wrote, "No longer should the force of tradition shield any subject from scrutiny...In probably no study did this older doctrine of mental discipline find larger scope than in mathematics, in arithmetic to an appreciable extent, more in algebra, and most of all in geometry." Kilpatrick maintained in his report, The Problem of Mathematics in Secondary Education, that nothing in mathematics should be taught unless its probable value could be shown, and recommended the traditional high school mathematics curriculum for only a select few.
>It was not surprising that mathematicians would object to Kilpatrick's report as an attack against the field of mathematics itself. David Eugene Smith, a mathematics professor at Teachers College and renowned historian of mathematics, tried to stop the publication of Kilpatrick's report as a part of the Cardinal Principles of Secondary Education, the full report of the Commission on the Reorganization of Secondary Education, and one of the most influential documents for education in the 20th century. Smith charged that there had been no meeting of the math committee and that Kilpatrick was the sole author of the report. Moreover, Kilpatrick's committee was not representative of teachers of mathematics or of mathematicians. Nevertheless, Kilpatrick's report was eventually published in 1920 by the U.S. Commissioner of Education, Philander P. Claxton, a friend of Kilpatrick.
>http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/AHistory.html
>http://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/CUPM/pdf/MAAUndergradHistory.pdf
Things only started improving after WWII but the backlash from New Math stagnated it.
>>55312000
who the fuck cares. gay people make up 3% of the population at most. I'm frankly sick of the fact that we feel the need to pander to a minority (and trannies for for that matter, who make up less than 1 million people)
>>55312001
>>55312002
Fuck, I had no idea.. Seems almost inconceivable that we would cut out an essential subject out of so many's education.
Reminder that removing the humanities gives you Japan - a nation enterely composed of individuals that lack critical thinking; fearful of ever expressing their opinion. Saying "the humanities can be learned on your free time" is a severely short sighted argument.
These are two good starting papers:
https://www.kandagaigo.ac.jp/kuis/about/bulletin/jp/019/pdf/benjamin_laskar.pdf
http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/articles/2008/Rear.html
>>55312001
>>55312002
god, I've read about similar things done to history these so called "expert" American educators from the early 20th century. They were so fucking pretentious and they managed to wreck our school system because they thought themselves philosophers and scientists.
End the school system, set up a new one based on certifications from individual teachers who can self-organize into schools as they want. Certifications should involve taking a test, writing a paper or completing a project which can stand as supplementary material to the portfolio of certificates that the child gathers.
>>55311899
>Lawyer
>Lawyer
>Glorified HR guy
>Lawyer
Why yes, I'd very much like the guys in charge of my government to know the law, how it works, and (in Boner's case) how to make people line up behind something instead of how to crank 5% more efficiency out of a fucking dam or some shit.
>well have you ever seen gridlock in the Chinese government :^)
They're a repressive one-party oligarchy and their usual response to dissent ranges between "jail the cunts for a year or two" and "arrest the cunts, execute them, and harvest the organs."
>>55311843
> How do we fix education in primary and secondary school so people will actually be taught things again?
> thinking you can fix education by changing the system
YOU FUCKING RETARDS
Until kids would actively WANT to educate themselves no matter how amazing you make your textbooks -- shit's not gonna change.
It's uncool to be a "nerd" and "teacher's pet".
It's positively mind boggling. In every other country of the world studying well is encouraged and celebrated, in US it's looked down upon.
Absolute retardation.
>>55311843
Do whatever Finland's doing.
>>55312009
I strongly suspect that the simplest solution would be to make public assistance contingent on grades.
If your kids aren't passing their classes, no welfare check.
>>55311843
>Children should learn things that they can't posibly grasp because their cognitive ability isn't developed enough
sounds great
>>55312012
>buying into Jean Piaget's "children can't learn because they are children" BS
Don't you know that's as bullshit as Freudian Psychology?
>>55311843
Track them during primary school and then hold more and less capable students to higher and lower standards and segregate them by their potential. But ALWAYS give them a rounded cirriculum. Just because you want to be a petroleum engineer doesn't mean you don't have to play an instrument and just because you want to be a novelist doesn't mean that you don't get to skip pre-calc. Also, physical discipline should be enforced - in both the sense that corporal punishment should be allowed and the sense that physical fitness should be encouraged.
Most school are fully capable of doing this but aren't allowed to because it invariably leads to allegations that the school is RAYCISS when the brown kids fall behind in every class except gym.
>>55311937
No. Several places have education businesses such as after school classes in Japan China Taiwan and Korea. They are run for prophet in both countries and lead to mostly to false praise and saying they are great, promoting students to higher levels etc all as a show for parents to continue paying for lessons. Then turn into day cares with no learning so kids don't complain and tell their parents to stop sending them.
First off, change the way public schools are funded in America. The current system only serves to hamstring youths in poor neighborhoods. Secondly I approve of the idea of Streaming children into specific areas of study earlier. I would argue that high school is the appropriate time to do this. In high school they would learn the mechanics of their field of interest, for example history students would learn historiography. Thirdly make understanding of pedagogical philosophy a requirement for teachers, too many teachers have no idea what they are doing.
>>55312016
>The current system only serves to hamstring youths in poor neighborhoods.
I don't want to get all /pol/ here, but it's really a demographic issue at the core. Time and time again a state and/or federal government decides to pour money into some shithole school district in a "poor" [read: brown] school district and all that ends up happening is a larger race gap because the brown kids get a small boost from whatever improvements the schools make and whatever white kids there are get a much bigger boost. You can argue until the cows come home about WHY minorities do worse in school than whites (gang activity, lack of proper prenatal care, poor home environments, schools are pressured to pass kids when they're not ready, "black culture", racial IQ gap, etc.) but the fact remains that minority kids just don't do as well as white kids in school and until you fix that the problem will remain no matter how much damn money you throw at the schools. It's a much better idea to just segregate all and sundry based on their abilities past a certain level of basic schooling and go from there.
My view of the public school system is pretty skewed since I went to one of the worst schools in the state I live in, but the problem for me was that everything went incredibly slow and I wasn't challenged, and there weren't any higher tier classes in which I could feel stimulated. I know this sounds like special snowflake shit, but in the town I'm from most of the kids there could barely write coherent sentences. The State had intervened around three or four times, cause it was so bad, and last I heard they geared the entire curriculum around agriculture.
>>55311882
>Eugenics can be civil, and if its voluntary no one can claim racism.
If it disproportionately affects black people it will be called racists, even if the reasons that it disproportionately affects blacks is purely a matter of class. This is essentially the basis for most claims about institutional racism today.
If you mean that they won't call you a genocidal maniac on the same level as Hitler for implementing these sorts of policies, then maybe.
>>55312017
There is a limit to what we can fix obviously. I'm not prepared to pass judgement on what the source of the problem is, though I don't believe in the iq gap as every source I've seen from it is about as non partisan as fox news. Also iq in itself is less a test of intelligence as it is cultural literacy, so anyone from outside that specific culture will have lower scores.
>>55311886
>The Byzantine Empire's bureaucracy (at least around Justinian's time) also required its officials to have a strong grounding in Classical Greek culture, but again, this didn't do prevent to stop the Byzantine Empire from military defeats and such.
Their collapse had much more to do with the Black Death hollowing out their population and tax base than anything else. No people to fill the armies, fewer people to pay taxes for those armies+ huge borders and Arab/Avar/etc. raiders = completely fucked in the long term. It would have required miracle workers to keep them going at the same level for much longer than they did.
>>55311894
>The professional parents would also serve as mentors/teachers. Of course the whole problem is that this system could be exploited for the purpose of indoctrination. I don't think this would be terrible, because I think such a system would promote social cohesion and raise healthier kids? so what does /his/ think?
Do you mean, in a theoretical environment where you had enough control to implement this sort of system? Because if say, Obama tried to implement it here in the US there would likely be armed revolt in the South at the very least, and probably every rural area.
You would also have to do something to get people to actually chose to reproduce. Without having any hand in actually raising the child, I doubt people would have many children.
Finally, I don't think that it'd be practical to hire people to be parents, given how many you would need, and I sincerely doubt that, even with a broad surveillance system, you could ensure that they'd do their jobs well - and no matter how harsh you want to punish those who fail, they'd still have created shitty citizens.
>>55312020
>Also iq in itself is less a test of intelligence as it is cultural literacy, so anyone from outside that specific culture will have lower scores.
Even Raven's Progressive Matrices and the NNAT? Tests that literally don't even require language skills and were intentionally designed to be as simple, objective and universal as possible? Negro please.
>>55312023
admittedly I haven't encountered those, in my experience whenever I see people being given an IQ test it is through something like the mensa website, which does in fact use cultural literacy.
>>55312024
>in my experience whenever I see people being given an IQ test it is through something like the mensa website
KEK
The gold standard in IQ tests and IQ research is RPM; there's 70+ years of data from all corners of the earth collected with that method, from conscripts in the USSR to literal niggers from nigger africa to generations of American school children and pretty much any kid that's ever been to see a shrink.
>>55311937
>If teachers and schools compete with each other they'll actually put some damn effort into getting results they can use to attract parents and the whole mess would fix itself.
The problem is entirely with the parents, not the teachers. Teachers expect shit pay and conditions as young people and thus must be in it because they want to teach people - they stop giving a shit when they become jaded because the kids don't give a fuck.
A child's education is made or broken at home - do they have two parents, married, who are financially stable (not necessarily well off but just not living off of welfare) and give a shit about their kid getting educated/read to them and all that? If so, they'll do fine in school, presuming no disabilities. If not, they won't.
The key to improving schooling is reducing the number of kids raised in single-parent households, in poverty, and to abusive morons, which means pulling money for single mothers, increasing access to abortion/contraception/sex ed, improving the employment rate, and social mores that encourage education and discourage divorce and child abuse - the last two things require a stronger sense of community to make work, the decline of which was described in Bowling Alone. The problem in the past was anti-intellectualism was a shared communal value.
>>55311856
>Implying the distribution of IQ in the average human population would let this happen.
>>55312026
>The problem in the past was anti-intellectualism was a shared communal value.
I'd say that that problem is both still around and is going to make a big comeback in ~20 years or so as bitter Millennials pass their bitterness to their offspring through osmosis.
The solution, of course, is to leave them to that and form an aristocratic class from worthy old money stock while abolishing predatory social institutions and practices of all kinds.
>>55312028
>I'd say that that problem is both still around and is going to make a big comeback in ~20 years or so as bitter Millennials pass their bitterness to their offspring through osmosis.
It's a persistent problem in the US, always has been, I just mentioned it because in the past there was sufficient social cohesion to enforce mores and values that would produce good parents and good students, but the social values that people had were anti-intellectual. The other things which I mentioned are much more pressing issues - children in single-parent households are generally disasters, but we aren't doing anything to correct that.
>>55312029
>children in single-parent households are generally disasters, but we aren't doing anything to correct that.
Of course not; that would be racist, sexist and probably homophobic considering that their kids are even worse.
;^)
>>55311887
>implying Brad wasn't just an exceptionally bright boy living in impoverished environmental circumstances
>implying any child is equally gifted
>implying quantitative intelligence isn't between 60% to 90% heritable.
>>55312013
Piagetian theory is about as decisive as it gets in psychology. Not sure what you are on about. Try teaching an average 9 year old child to carry out abstract, axiomatic thought and see what happens.
Besides, Piaget never said children cannot learn, nor did he really focus on age. His research only noted that there was a species-typical developmental sequence for the acquisition of cognitive abilities in humans.
Some kids might show accelerated progress through this sequence, but most will not. Tell me how to get around that?
>I say this as a clinical psychologist who has intellectually evaluated many children
>>55311937
That requires the people with the decision making authority, eg Parents to be able to accurately asses the quality of education the students are getting. Which is sketchy at best. Also schools have so much infrastructure and regulation that startup costs are huge.
One outcome is massive grade inflation as each school attempts to felate the fuck out of the parents in thinking their kids are performing wonderfully.
>>55312032
Question. Why does the study of adult education suck so much by comparison?
>>55311965
>taught myself hobbies and math that I realized I had to do shit hundreds of times before I became decent at it.
I think you're just slow. Yeah, doing the exercising in math are important but you don't need to do hundreds...
>cram all this information
There's not all that much to cram in high school. Even foreign language class don't require you to know all that much.
>>55312009
>It's uncool to be a "nerd" and "teacher's pet".
I always wondered where this attitude arose though. What's your take on it senpai?
>>55311863
Summer vacation is essential for summer jobs. In this economy it's hard enough to get jobs and having some previous work experiences help in everything. With summer vacation we don't need to insert job tryouts etc to the school program.
Then there is the issue of teachers, whom are already "underpaid" considering their level of education, believe it or not summer vacation is actually a large motivation for some people to take up teaching.
Also even the kids deserve a break.
>>55312021
yeah good point, they were literally born in the wrong generation :^). But the empire was also weakened by the constant feuding and intrigue in the byzantine court, no? That is something that the "classical" educated should have inoculated against. Had ruling class been more unified if could have been better positioned to exploit the empire's resources to the fullest. Such was the case in both Sweden in the 17th century and Prussia (and Russia) during the 18th. And while Sweden and Prussia did have highly educated elites raised in the classical tradition, they were also equally imbued with martial values that were promoted by their absolutist-leaning leaders (the Great Electors and Gustav II Adolph, along with plenty other kings from both those dynasties)
>>55312035
Kids
a)Hate authority
b)Secretly love authority
c)Like being praised
d)Hate seeing other kids being praised
Kids are all little shits
>>55312022
yeah its entirely theoretical.
as for your first problem:
>I doubt people would have many children
this is already a BIG problem in the industrialized world and is a trend spreading to less developed countries too. Regardless of whether my crazy system is implemented or not, declining birth rates is a problem that governments have to tackle. So far all the efforts at promoting fertility through cash incentives have been failures, the most prominent examples being Japan, Germany and Singapore. Now, you might argue that declining populations is not a bad thing, and I am apt to agree with this view. But this comes with some problems. First of all, aging populations are a problem because resources have to be dedicated to taking care of the elderly. In Japan, for example, I think you have something like 1 young adult for every 6 or 7 people above the age of 65. Another problem is immigration, as you can see with the refugee crisis. Merkel, I believe, is allowing immigrants to settle not out of humanitarian impulse, but also because of the increasing demographic problem facing Germany. The immigrants solves the crisis of an aging population, but it also causes great resentment and batters an ingrained sense of nationalism, which had been originally created to promote social harmony and unity among the populace. In a word, the government abandons its population's ideals for the sake of a pragmatic population policy.
The reasons people have less kids is because they are too expensive to raise and because they are time consuming. We also have societies that encourage individualism at the expense of the family unit or even the good of society. But if you were to have a professional parenthood, you actually eliminate these problems. The natural birth parents would be allowed to visit their children often if they so desired, with the benefit of not having to deal with the stress of raising the children.
>>55312005
Learning humanities helped me jack shit when it came to creative thinking.
>>55312005
>>55312040
critical* thinking
Fug
>>55312039
On the other hand, those parents that aren't so attached wouldn't have to be obliged to do so. But in order to eliminate jealousy or resentment, parental visitations would have to be eliminated, or alternatively, in order to see one's natural child, the parents would also have to "adopt" or "mentor" another child that is part of the professional family unit. So in my opinion, this system might actually INCREASE childbirth, because a lot of its worst aspects are eliminated for parents. Alternatively, the government might have to coerce or find the proper set of incentives to encourage women into getting pregnant and giving birth. Maybe the government could set up a lottery system that chooses couples at random who would then have to bear a child. In order to sweeten the deal, though, the government could pay them a lump sum for their troubles or maybe grant them access to free healthcare, pensions, tax breaks or something else.
now as for this point
>I don't think that it'd be practical to hire people to be parents, given how many you would need
On the contrary, since people would "specialize" in parenting, they would be able to "raise efficiency" so to speak, so that professional parents could nurture five to ten children at a time instead of just the usual one to three. At the same time, the natural birth parents, freed from the burden/time they have to spend raising children, would have their time freed up to go toward more productive activities, or in their free time, consume more. In this way, the division of labor would actually raise the productive capacity of society as a whole rather than hinder it.
>I sincerely doubt that, even with a broad surveillance system, you could ensure that they'd do their jobs well
I'd say this is the best criticism. But to me, it wouldn't be different than our school system today, but on a larger scale. You'd have administrators who visit parents once a month to monitor parenting.
>>55311976
>Pure math is absolutely fucking useless
Opinion disregarded.
>therefore society would be better off if children learned how balance their finances and understand how to make investments
And to do that you need to know *gasp* PURE MATHEMATICS. Particularly the same exact math class everyone bitches about and scapegoats as most useless: precalculus!
>>55312035
It's continuation of "good dumb" archetype modified slightly into "dumb is good" with a pinch of "nutty professor" working from other side
Kids see all those einsteins on TV, and surmise that social skills and intellect are incompatible. Or even fuck TV, just read some Verne.
Nah, i don't want to be like that dirty absent minded guy! -- says the child, i'd rather be letterman jock or cheerleader slut.
>>55312038
Bullshit.
See asian countries where getting good grades makes the kid "popular".
Korean pop idol proudly proclaims he was first in his school, another is Mensa member. Both get impressed looks.
Bad grades need (well first -- to exist to begin with) to be actively shunned, picrelated.
Good grades need to be encouraged.
>>55312042
cont.
Or like I mentioned before, you'd have cameras set up in households and you'd maybe have one person monitoring 20 to 60 households and varying times during the year.
>and no matter how harsh you want to punish those who fail, they'd still have created shitty citizens.
Remember, though, that these parents would be professionally trained. They will have gone through years of apprenticeships, mentoring, examinations and the like. They would also be highly valued by society for raising children and they would be well compensated. So hopefully, bad parents would be weeded out through a rigorous system. In case they aren't, however, the surveillance system would be another layer of quality control, helping to spot bad parents. Now, there would not be a severe punishment system; this would only engender bitterness on the part of the professional parent. Rather, state assessors might offer advice, send in an expert to help correct the parent's behavior (after all, the parents themselves might not realize they are doing anything wrong). After a certain amount of warnings, however, the parent could be fired and a transitional period put in place whereby the parent is slowly fazed out for another so as not to traumatize the children. Another thing I had in mind is that the children would also be able to send anonymous complaints to the government. This might encourage paranoia, but on the other hand, if enough complaints against a parent come in, it would lead the government to investigate through cameras a parent over the course of several months to see if there is anything going awry.
>>55312044
I think he has a point about the authority thing in america though. At some point in our history, most likely during the 60s/70s, there was a clear decline in respect for authority. This has led people to distrust anything that has to do with government, hierarchy or public participation. That why you saw the rise of homeschooling, the national rifle association, religious schooling and stuff like that.
>>55312042
>parental visitations would have to be eliminated,
limited or regulated*
You don't need to know the cantor schroder bernstein theorem or what a homomorphism is to balance a checkbook anymore than you need quantum physics to learn how to ride a bicycle.
>>55312043
You don't need to know the cantor schroder bernstein theorem or what a homomorphism is to balance a checkbook anymore than you need quantum physics to learn how to ride a bicycle.
>>55312043
Also
>"precalculus"
>pure mathematics
get the fuck out.
>>55312049
But you do need to know algebra, exponentials, logarithms, geometric series, limits, etc to know how much you're going to need to pay for your mortgage or the continuous interest on your credit cards.
To make investments (intelligently) you're going to need to quite a bit of pure math to unravel the Black Scholes equation and other models.
>>55312051
first of all that (the black scholes equation, stochastic calculus, "financial math", etc) is applied mathematics. algebraic manipulation, exponentials and limits are basic concepts you learn in high school. pure mathematics are useless thought experiments that mathematicians wank off to. pure mathematicians arent even smart. theyre outclassed by computer scientists
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/lamport/pubs/proof.pdf
leslie lamport BTFO'd the entire field of mathematics in 2011 when he published his paper on the proper and correct way to do proofs. mathematicians dont know their own craft, it had to be explained to them by a lowly computer scientist
>>55312052
>CS major thinks he knows what math is
top kek
>>55312008
>I'd very much like the guys in charge of my government to know the law, how it works
And a guy that doesn't know shit about science setting global warming policy is good how?
The only thing law trains you to do is be a good lair
>>55311843
>The 4Chan curriculum!
>/his/ teaches history!
>It's a a schizophrenic man arguing with himself over whether the holocaust happened or not
>/fit/ teaches fitness!
>/fit/ puts the kids on a simple but effective 5x5 routine interspersed with swimming and cycling for cardio
>Then slips them roids in the showers
>/pol/ teaches debating!
>Now kids, this an "ad hominem", it's when you attack someones argument without refuting their point!
>But teacher you do that all the ti-
>SHUT YOUR JEW MOUTH YOU LITTLE NIGGER
>/sci/ teaches science
>It's all fucking wrong
>But don't worry, he was only pretending to be retarded
>/lit/ teaches literature
>Confused kindergartners trying to start with the Greeks
>/biz/ teaches finance!
>Kids are involving in tooth fairy ponzi schemes within the month
>>55312035
>I always wondered where this attitude arose though
Currently, the ghetto. Classical jock on nerd bullying is dead.
>>55312015
Those aren't "schools" but "cram schools". They don't exist to teach you new things but to study what you've already learned to boost your grades on entrance exams.
>>55312054
they have a team of advisors you fucking retard
>>55311962
>The aim of latin classes is not to teach you how to speak or read latin fluently, it is to teach you about etymology
Absolute nonesense. Do you think you'll have more etymological background because you know 50 or so words and must search the rest on a dictionary, or if you were able to fluently speak the language (thus "having the dictionary in your mind")? I'll give you an example, it's Greek + Latin but whatever, it's the same: I saw this animal name "cryptoprocta ferox". I know ferox means wild, ferocious because it's basically the same in my language, just like English. It doesn't take a Latin expert to even know this particular one. I know crypto- means hidden thanks to my rudimental Greek highschool knowledge. I have no idea what -procta means. Compare with someone who actually knows Greek: he would know both of the terms, thus having a better etymological grasp than me. This is after 5 years of Greek and Latin studies. You can learn modern Greek nicely enough in half that time, by studying it like you're supposed to. Latin is not any more difficult than German. 5 years should be more than enough.
>some latin culture/history, latin philosophy
And surely you can learn latin culture better by taking 2 hours to translate a few paragraph, than someone knowing how to read latin fluently right? You could read an entire book by, say, Senaca, in the time it takes a Latin highschool student to translate half a page.
> construction of the language
Again, someone actually knowing Latin would know this better than any highschool latin student, who still manages to make many mistakes when analyzing sentences that would have been understandable to a Roman child or uncultured peasant. It's ridiculous.
Free market
>>55312055
Moar please
>>55311876
I learned more in all areas except math when I away from school. Not only would I have hated it, I'd probably be a less knowledgeable person.
All getting rid of summer vacation would do is reward the idiots who are incapable of learning on their own at the expense of everyone else.
waow
>>55312062
waow waow
>>55312044
What ghettos did you people go to school? All the dumb kids were looked down upon and being intelligent and/or getting good grades was prerequisite to being at all popular.
>>55312055
/mu/ teaches music?
/o/ teaches drivers ed?
/g/ teaches I.T.?
>>55311843
I believe that the very core concept underlying the vast majority of public education is deeply flawed.
Why?
The astounding success of home schooled and unschooled children as adults. Multiple studies have shown that a mother with a 4th grade reading level, $100 a year, and a library card can homeschool her children to be in the top 3% of standardized tests and prep them for the ivy leagues where they are in the top 5%. 50% of unschooled children go on the STEM fields and as adults 50% are successful business owners by the age of 28.
Imagine how much money parents would pay to put their kids into a private school with a 50% STEM graduation rate and a separate 50% successful business owner by 30 rate! Yet, if they simply adopt the unschooling concepts for their kids they'd get the same thing.
If you wish to reform public education, return to the trivium and the quadrivium and reduce mandatory schooling to be from 9 years old to 15 years old with the quadrivium not beginning until age 16.
Bt it will never happen in a Democratic society - politicians and bureaucrats won't stand for teaching logic to voters.
>>55311845
I think reverse chronlogy would be good. Start with recent relevant stuff that kids can easily relate to, use this time to teach them the basics of history study, then you can go backwards to teach about the causes of the recent stuff and so on.
>>55311865
>online summer homework
That's the fucking worst idea I've ever seen, passion and creativity in arts and sciences will be totally gone if students are expected to be responsible for even more tedium during their vacation. Absolute nonsense.
The problem with education is that there's too much work to do compared to how much students are actually learning, and that modern grade school education is too focused on control and discipline rather than on actual education, and fails many students who are actively interested in subjects and have to deal with mind-numbingly boring and slow classes
>>55311862
>Kids away from parents, good or bad, kids take morals from state instead of parents
That will be bad. Look how bad it has been already!
>>55311877
>Pay teachers decent wages
In the US the median wage for a single person in $26,000. The median wage for a teacher (who only works 9 months a year) is $42,000, or 1.6x the national average. Yet as teachers' pay has increased student education, etc. has *decreased*.
Increasing their pay obviously doesn't work or the problem would be fixed *now*.
the rest of your concepts are just as wrong headed.
>>55311894
Translation
>I've never read 1984, Brave New World, or any similar books, am unfamiliar with the history of the totalitarian regimes of the 20th Century, and don't have children of my own
>>55311892
I quite like this. It lets everyone work at their own pace, and removes the assumptions that qualification dates bring with them. Employers will be interested to know why those quals were at those dates, and why they were taken.
It's so much better than simply shoveling the same qualifications at people, that they all take at the same time. It raises the worth of qualifications, while making them non compulsory.
>>55312070
>the "teachers only work 9 months a year" meme
>>55312055
>/lit/ teaches literature
>Confused kindergartners trying to start with the Greeks
They can start with the Greeks. There are children's versions.
Stop making fucking excuses.
>>55312073
OK, so do they make 1.6 times the median income, or not?
Of course they do or you'd have addressed that.
So, if teachers currently make so much more than average
>and we haven't even discussed goodies like government pensions, no-cost medical insurance, etc. that mean real earnings are even higher.
So teachers make a GREAT wage - and schools still suck, and suck hard.
>>55312071
I've read them all senpai; Brave New World, 1984 and We. I know plenty about totalitarian regimes; probably more than you. Admittedly, I don't have children, but I don't see how it disqualifies me or anyone else in this thread from proposing a way to fix the education system and by extension, the society. And don't give me that "you can never know the bond between a parent and child" meme because, clearly, many parents abuse and neglect their children on purpose or for lack of knowledge about child rearing skills. You're experience as a parent (which I assume you are) does not give you the authority to comment on all parents; that is called anecdotal evidence.
>>55312055z
>/asp/ just makes all the kids fight all the time.
>>55311892
Why make exams expensive? Id prefer some norwegian system where you save study points (exam points in your case) per year you pay taxes. For example 10 points per year, 2 point spent per exam, you get 1 points back if you pass.
>>55312076
>You're experience as a parent
"your"
So you read these books, know about totalitarian regimes and their use of/control education to force children to be subservient tot he state and *still*advocate for state control of morals, etc.?
That's just fucking stupid. Especially in a Democracy.
The concept that parents should be in charge of their childrens' development is not just because of a special bond
>No, fuck you and you inb4; the fact that some abuse/lack a thing doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is immaterial, or speech, sight, and hearing would be conjectural and/or moot to the discussion
Who is going to be in charge of determining what morals are given to *all children*? You? Me? "The State"? What happens when a group you don't like takes over this education and teaches, oh, I don't know - blatant disregard for scientific facts?
>Ever hear a Millennial argue vehemently that biology isn't real? I have, often, because of what they were taught in school.
The problem is you are mistaking public education, which is supposed to just teach basic skills on reading, writing, maths, etc. for the process by which adults are made. This is not the case!
Summer break needs to go.
>Elementary School: Basic /out/ skills, physical education, team building
>Middle/Highschool: Reserve/National Guard service
Maybe bi-weekly
>>55312079
>"your"
I'm debating on 4chan early in the morning there's bound to be slip ups rofl
>the fact that some abuse/lack a thing doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is immaterial, or speech, sight, and hearing would be conjectural and/or moot to the discussion
Sorry I'm tired here. Can you explain this more clearly?
Anyway, I don't see such a system as needing to require moral indoctrination. After all, teachers don't teach kids a specific set of morals, and they get their qualifications from the state. The same can be said about the threat of political interference. You have some states banning the teaching of evolution in classes and prohibiting certain books. It's just as bad and if a student and his parents didn't know any better they would believe it, or maybe even support it if they were evangelical Christians.
>for the process by which adults are made
I see them as very intertwined processes. Most kids nowadays will spend the majority of their waking hours in school. It's where they're socialized. And the school environment, arguably more than the home itself, is where students pick up attitudes that will stay with them till adulthood. I don't think there is some magical process by which children suddenly become adults in a process totally divorced from their environment.
Also, I don't really see the difference between a child subservient to the state and subservient to ones parents. The state wouldn't even be an abstract entity in this case, but a professional trained to a certain standard, and also, dedicated to the responsibility of raising a group of children for 18-20 years.
I couldn't give you an exact set of qualifications someone needs to be a parent, but I think that's something research and experience should eventually be able to discover.
>>55312070
Although it varies from place to place, teachers are required to have at least a bachelors degree plus additional credential work and constant continuing education. Median teacher salary is also thrown off by defining some support and administrative positions as teachers, and requiring masters and PHDs for the higher salary tiers. A median salary would require a masters degree and more than 10-20 years of experience. Their starting salaries are piss poor for the requirements.
Also, in the US, they generally don't qualify for social security.
As it is, we can't attract enough qualified competent people to teach math and science, and compensation is a significant part of this.
>>55311900
After school tutoring might work. Or maybe just have students take a sheet back to their parents every week that tells the parents what the child is learning and how to do the work, so the parents can help their children more easily.
>>55312081
>Anyway, I don't see such a system as needing to require moral indoctrination
So when you wrote
>>Kids away from parents, good or bad, kids take morals from state instead of parents
>I'm also strongly attracted to this idea.
you didn't mean it?
>Also, I don't really see the difference between a child subservient to the state and subservient to ones parents
How about I reply
>"I Also, I don't really see the difference between a child subservient to the state and subservient to his owners"
Here's the thing - the modern state. and people in it, love the *benefits* of children being raised to be good citizens
>taxes are paid, well-skilled people exist to do exacting work, less crime, etc.
They hate the real costs of raising children
>the physical involvement of both parents, particularly the mother; the moral and social education; the time; the costs
You want others to take the risks and then get the citizen *you* want by fiat.
That isn't how it works.
>>55312082
>Also, in the US, they generally don't qualify for social security.
That's because they have government pensions.
>As it is, we can't attract enough qualified competent people to teach math and science, and compensation is a significant part of this.
Doubtful; when median wages for teachers were on par with national median wages there were more teachers with degrees in math and science; as wages and other compensation have increased the numbers have gone down.
No one is addressing
>>55312066
OK, fine - how to fix education?
Make homeschooling easier
>Reduce or eliminate property taxes and fees related to education from families that home school
>Make college facilities such as gyms and labs available to home schoolers
>Give other tax breaks to home schoolers where the mother or father is home full time
>Reduce or eliminate paperwork and such related to homeschooling
All these unknown flags
w-why are all flags itt unkown...
>>55312399
because
>>161396
>>161396
>>55312510
damn, no archive,
pic related
W-what's going on?
>>55312547
>moving threads
What the fuck is this shit
FUCK YOU HIRO
>>55312359
>>55312399
The flags are unknown because mods moved this thread from >>>/his/, a non-flag board.
>>55312086
Homeschoolers should get a voucher/rebate
ITT: 4chan under Hiroshima Nagasaki rule. Quality assurance at it's finest/
>there are people who actually took that troll on /sci/ seriously
Common core is the first step of many, we can't just completely revolutionize the way we educate our population overnight.
>>55312773
>Common core
>not shit
ayyy
>>55312773
But people *did*
Home schooling, especially unschooling, is a radical departure and people just did it, on their own, and it is growing by about 5% a year.
