How good was Middle East before Muslims, actually?
For example, (Sassanid) Persians practiced incest (and considered it ''sacred'' union), Zoroastrian priesthood practically ruled the state at several points and persecuted other religions, women also had to cover their heads, were locked away during menstruation, were considered inferior, Christians and Jews paid a special tax and so on.
Population in Levant pretty much despised Roman rule due to religious (denominational) differences, and everything indicates Arabs were welcomed.
Now I'm not talking about steppeniggers like Turks who never abandoned their steppennigger roots and thus created the shit that was Ottoman Empire, or modern Muslims, but Arab Caliphates don't appear so bad, especially considering what existed before them.
turns out it was preeeetty good
>>75578141
Arabs built nice shit too man.
But anyway my point is ''Muslim conquests were total disaster'' idea seems awfully wrong.
Late antiquity Persian culture for example looks awfully similar to Muslim culture that succeeded it.
>>75577797
>Zoroastrian priesthood practically ruled the state at several points and persecuted other religions
Islam and the umah was ruled by religious leaders and persecuted almost every other religion
>women also had to cover their heads
common practice at the time
>were considered inferior
aren't they?
>Christians and Jews paid a special tax and so on
like jizzya?
>Population in Levant pretty much despised Roman rule due to religious (denominational) differences
yes but they were even more different from the Arabs and they hated the Arabs. they went from one master to another.
they were horrible
>How good was Middle East before Muslims, actually?
It was better than anything they have now.
>>75578371
yes because the Arabs adopted local culture, they did not create it.
>>75577797
It is a natural crossing point for four continents. Arabs were wealthy from trade long before Islam.
>>75577797
Islam has a supieor culture to the west, I will give them that. I despise these people and their religion, but I admire them to an extent, simply because I am honest with myself and recognize we share the same basic values and its all the Zionist Jews fault its like this (this isn't a theory, Jews and Arabs were bros before Zionism, we have documented testimonies from people who grew up in those eras, you dumb-ass niggas
>>75578705
>superior culture
>less freedoms
>>75578506
>Islam and the umah was ruled by religious leaders and persecuted almost every other religion
Really? So how come you still have Christians in Middle East?
From what I read they mostly left you alone if you paid tax, though there were some exceptions and pressures in some regions.
>common practice at the time
True.
>aren't they?
I'm addressing the ''Muslims treat women awfully'' part.
>like jizzya?
Exactly.
>yes but they were even more different from the Arabs
Christians and Jews in Levant literally sabotaged defense of cities there.
Only real difference between Caliphate and Sassanid Empire I can spot is the fact Jew or a Christian could be appointed to higher rank in Persia. But Jews and Christians were still often persecuted.
Remembering the middle east before islam took over.
Sounds like a decent place. Any way we can return to that?
>>75577797
>Persians practiced incest (and considered it ''sacred'' union)
It is, incest is very good.
>women...were considered inferior
They are.
>>75578880
meh, I'm in favor of society enforcing religious laws if the Book of books says so.....
Islamic history was good until 11th century
>Hur dur Muhammad married a 9 years old
I don't give a fuck, consider him a king like the other kiddy diddlers in Europe at the time like him. But what followed for the next 2-300 years was really astonishing period from preserving ancient greek knowledge, to establishing new sciences or adding largely to existing ones, to leading the philosophical arguments about good and evil, God's rule on earth and even denying some of Islam teachings at some point preceding renaissance in Europe by hundreds of years. They even didn't force Islam on Levantines or any other people that didn't want to convert. All the conversions happened after 11th century and after the crusades. What happened after 11th century is that Islam caught a cancer and today it is in its ugliest and last stages and about to implode.
>>75578892
firstly there were other religions to. those were persecuted to the point of death.
as for Jews and Christians they did tend to humiliate them .
>Christians and Jews in Levant literally sabotaged defense of cities there.
Only real difference between Caliphate and Sassanid Empire I can spot is the fact Jew or a Christian could be appointed to higher rank in Persia. But Jews and Christians were still often persecuted.
the major reason for the treason was the eastern church treated us very badly and certain Christians sects saw romanization of Christianity as sacrilege
>>75579065
>incest good
Illuminati, stop corrupting the underaged posters, especially the sexual abuse victims lurking on here (they are out there)
>>75577797
muslims were not bad for your country as well ,njegos
>>75579065
>incest is very good
Father marrying daughter or son marrying his mother is very good?
>>75578598
I'm simply talking of how Middle East looked before and after Muslim conquests, not who created what and when.
>>75579278
Why is it about to implode? What do you know?
>>75579427
Nothing people don't know, Saudi Arabia collapse. It will be a shitshow like no other m9.
>>75579365
the credit you can give them is not in creating culture but in not destroying it to much (like the fall of rome).
but the culture would have existed regardless.
>>75579278
i have no problem with the Islamic prophet being flawed.every single prophet and king in the old testament is flawed and it's written in ink. i have a problem with the fan club pretending that because he did it it's ok.
the quran ends saying the opposite.
as for the age of prosperity following the conquest. it was not because of them but they at least did not ruin it.loo at >>75579562
>>75579278
As a side note, recommended age for marriage in Sassanid Persia was also 9 for girls. For males it was 15.
This seems to have been common in that age, I don't think Mohammad created some revolution.
>>75579316
Same happened to Manicheaism and Mazdakism in Sassanid Persia.
>they did tend to humiliate them
I believe that was the norm in all ancient and especially medieval societies.
>for the treason
Christians there were ''traitors'' too, because Constantinople treated them badly too due to theological differences.
How about the Abrahamic religions never existing?
It wouldn't be much better? No jews, no Christians, no muslims, no Marxists, no Feminists, no banksters.
Is jews never had existed there would be none of this shit.
>>75579957
well...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dAmroKyzGY
>>75579278
>What happened after 11th century is that Islam caught a cancer
Very true. The early days of the caliphates (Rashidun-Umayad-Abasid) were the REAL days of actual Islamic caliphates. Anything after that were trash tiers;all these memes we have today about Islam always refer to the later caliphates
>>75579871
I am not a believer, but I do think that Umayyad and Abbasid should get a lot of credit to the prosperity which followed the conquest. Their policies were very civilized at times for their era, and they championed scientific research for a good period of time giving scientists and researchers salaries in gold. Sure, the fertile crescent, persia or even iberia had resources, but it took a good leadership to exploit these resources and turn their societies into a global centers for research and knowledge and tolerance. I just wish that Muslims return to be as reasonable as they were in that era.
>>75579359
I'm not talking about that and in any case Ottoman Empire was a shitty creation that can in no way be compared to Caliphates.
Caliphates had at least some cultural and scientific output for example.
Compared to what was life like in Europe at that time, they had it better.
Ottomans were, except for the time of Suleiman, pretty inferior in all aspects to Europe, and their rule cost us a lot.
>>75579562
Well yes, that's my point.
>but the culture would have existed regardless
Obviously.
>>75579957
Some other monotheistic religions would appear.
I never understand people who cry about how Abrahamic religions are bad, but then sperg about how worshiping pagan gods is somehow intellectually saner.
Pagan beliefs were philosophically speaking childish. Paganism in Rome and Greece died long before those societies did.
>>75580179
It is also worth noting that the first three caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid) were civil state caliphate, and the later ones Fatimid, Seljuk, Mamluk, Kurd, Ottoman were military led states.
>>75580303
That's true. Iberia during Visigothic rule was a backwater.
Middle East was always like WWE ring
>Now I'm not talking about steppeniggers like Turks who never abandoned their steppennigger roots and thus created the shit that was Ottoman Empire, or modern Muslims, but Arab Caliphates don't appear so bad, especially considering what existed before them.
We were never steppe niggers except the seljuknigger period. And no i'm not talking about turkmenniggers i'm talking about us, the anatolians
>>75580857
Ottoman Turks never forgot their origin, that's why that state went to shit.
Firstly It's a desert. They tend to be sparsely populated. so naturally Europe would have a higher population.
Only reason we had the renaissance is because we distanced ourselves from that Middle Eastern vampirc death cult. Christ-insanity came very close to destroying Europe... multiple times.
The Middle East just had a stronger form of Christianity (Islam). That and the Mongol Invasions that killed over half of the population there followed subsequently by the black death.. Entire regions were depopulated in the Middle East. Iran only recovered to pre Mongol population levels in the 1950's !!!
Also it's harder for populations in resource sparse regions to recover as quickly. This is why Fertile Europe's population boomed where Middle Easterners population waned.
less than 3% of the region's land is Arable (Farmable). Compare that to Europe where over 70% can be farmed.
Farming in a desert is labor intensive and has a lower yield. Hence the need for a larger lower class. This is why the Middle East imported so many Negros and Indians
(poo in loo). They eventually became a minority in their own country. Their society is now extremely tribalistic and polarized, due to the different ethnic groups. the IQ's between ethnic groups there also paints a similar picture. Some tribes (descended from the original Middle East) have an average IQ of around 115, whereas others are in the 70's. (From Africa/Abbo land)
Social cohesion correlates strongly with ethnic homogeneity. slight impurities in copper vastly reduce it's electrical conductively. (cough, cough Europe, cough)
pic somewhat related.
>>75580997
>Ottoman Turks never forgot their origin, that's why that state went to shit.
Balkannigger please.
>What is Third Rome
>What is Turkmen extermination
>Why did Aqqoyunlu fall
And unlike other steppe niggers, ottomans relied on infantry and artillery power
>>75581155
(Cont)
Before that they region lead the world, it was the cradle of civilization. Damascus the city of Jasmine and honey is the oldest continually inhabited city in the world... So much lost.
Al-Hazan one of the greatest inventors of the ancient world, the father of optics and the pioneer who formed the basis of the scientific method. Only 20 of his estimated 500 books survive. Some of his surgical methods are still in use today !!!
Sadly he was murdered by Salafist extremists who decided to make algebra (Arabic word) illegal.
>>75580318
not to defend turks and shit, but I don't agree with you. They were a huge empire on three continents with a very good infrastructure (hell, they even built roads and bridges in our vukojebina). You also had the freedom of religion that you didn't have anywhere else at that time europe. Sure you were way better off if you were muslim, but look, all your monastery are still standing.
you can't really put effort in art and culuture when you have to deal with: arabs, us balkan barbarians, african arabs.
da biras ne mozes goru sortu ljudi da nadjes od to troje.
>>75580318
I would be Neo-Platonism and not jew worship.
>>75581155
Also population density correlates with societal development.
Bump :^)
>>75581381
Actually arabs were not a problem till 19th century
>>75579538
dude what if I told you the Messiah is going to come out of this....it was supposed to happen after the holocaust, but the Jews were unworthy because of the mass defection from Torah for the last 150 years and so the disloyal Jews created the state of Israel and celebrated yet, which was a greater tragedy than the holocaust because that state is preventing the Messiah from coming (there are sources in the words of our Sages for this, its not just neturei karta, ignore Zionist shill parasites)
All jews should leave the middle east and Europe and live in America.
>>75581155
>>75581304
>>75581618
>>75581660
First off, R A R E F L A G.
Secondly, I didn't know they had 4chanz in Zambia, what's it like there?
>>75581188
I'm talking about shit like Sultan exterminating his whole family once coming to power, women ruling behind throne, local power-holders ignoring central government, and so on.
Oh and banning the printing press.
Sultans were also often tyrannical fucks.
>ottomans relied on infantry and artillery power
Artillery yes, but main arm was cavalry (sipahis). Janissaries were just elite meme corps.
>>75581381
My point would be that we're similar to Arabs precisely because of Ottoman rule.
We weren't like that before Ottomans came. And I'm not saying Byzantine culture was perfect, but it was better.
Ottoman Empire was shit for everyone, Muslim or Christian. It's just that Muslims stank a bit less in that shit.
>>75581425
I doubt that. Religions are for plebs, smart people are rarely fanatically religious. They are necessary, and stuff like Christianity, Islam or Judaism is more applicable than philosophy, and far superior to paganism.
>>75582164
>>75577797
>Hurr Durr Islam saved the world from Incest.
FACT: Pervert Pedophile Prophet Muhammad was into BOTH Incest and Pedophilia (rubbed his penis on 6 year old Aisha according to Koran) which even back then were prohibited in Middle East.
Mo wanted to bang his own son Zaid's wife Zainab which was not allowed in Middle East.
This happed after he saw OWN SON'S WIFE in naked (why was he looking at her when she was naked ?) and used this excuse to force own son to first divorce his wife and so that Mo could marry her.
Yup, MARRY OWN SON'S WIFE. Again: BEFORE Islam this was not considered A-O-K.
>Muhammad expected criticism if he married Zaynab. Pre-Islamic custom disapproved of marriage between a man and his son's former wife.[31] Arab society would have viewed this union as profoundly wrong; it was considered incestuous
> Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaynab_bint_Jahsh#Preparation_for_the_marriage
So how did he manage to FUCK HIS OWN SON'S WIFE ?
With help from Allah obviously. A revelation from Allah approved the union between members of family :
>This turned into quite a scandal among the Arabs, who equated Muhammad's actions with incest, since he married his daughter-in-law. Soon thereafter, Muhammad received another convenient revelation:
>>"And (remember) when you said to him (Zaid) on whom God has bestowed Grace (by guiding him to Islam) and you (O Muhammad too) have done favor (by manumitting him) "Keep your wife to yourself, and fear God." But you did hide in yourself (i.e. what God has already made known to you that He will give her to you in marriage) that which God will make manifest, you did fear the people whereas God had a better right that you should fear Him. So when Zaid had accomplished his desire from her (i.e. divorced her), We gave her to you in marriage, [..]"
>>Qur'an 33:37
>>http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/033-qmt.php#033.037
https://davidiqbalkarim.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/33/
>>75577797
What you described isn't really that bad.
>>75577797
The religion isn't really the issue on the face of it as much as the culture that is commonly attached to the religion.
Take the vast majority of children of Muslim immigrants. The original immigants are insane, but the Muslim children are basically the same as Christians. Most I knew don't even wear a headscarf.
It's the culture that is the problem.
>>75581155
>>75581304
It's not just Mongols. Besides, at that time focus moved from Baghdad to Cairo.
It's also Mamluks. Funny how same happened in Ottoman Empire, slaves came to rule it de facto.
>>75582486
Feelsgoodman
>>75582510
I already told you recommended age for marriage in Sassanid Persia was 9 years for girls.
You also had examples even in Christian Europe. One Serbian king married a child Byzantine princess, probably raped her when she was a kid which left her unable to bear children. Of course this is seen as nothing good, but things like that happened.
What Mohammad did wasn't so strange in that period I guess.
>>75582622
My point is most of cultural elements were preserved with minor modification.
>>75582784
Did the ottoman rule leave any ethnic impact on you guys?
>>75582784
Ya, I know, Pisses me off when people just presume with their superficial understanding of the issue that it's all just inbreeding.
Jews are mega inbred but they still smart. Most People don't think, just blurt out memes.
>>75582510 Poo In Loo, Don't sleep on roads Abbo/Rajesh
>>75582860 Ian was right about everything, He's probably laughing from heaven
>>75583328
At least we aren't shitting ourselves to death of Ebola you African nigger.
>>75583325
Not really. Turks never settled in number here and local rulers were Muslim converts.
Besides, Turks themselves are mostly Anatolian genetically.
>>75583328
>Jews are mega inbred
They have some medical problems from that you know.
>>75583134
Actually marrying Aisha(6 year old) and rubbing his penis on her thighs when she was just 6 till he ejaculated WAS considered strange.
He needed a new revelation from Allah to approve marriage to both 6 year old Aisha and his son's wife Zainab.
Stop defending that pervert pedophile prophet.
>>75583777
can conform
my mothers side is montenegrin (kuč tribe), but they've been muslims for centuries. thing is, they rebelled against the turks with the serbs a bunch of times.
monteniggers are like that, they just don't give a fuck, for better or for worse.
>>75583590
>>75583777
>Besides, Turks themselves are mostly Anatolian genetically.
How do Turks feel about the fact that their genetic ancestry is mainly Greek?
I believe it was around 60% or so. Greeks have always seemed top-tier, but they fell pretty far, lel
>>75584129
>How do Turks feel about the fact that their genetic ancestry is mainly Greek?
We don't care at all. But t*ranist shits claim that Turks lost their slanted eyes because of climate of Anatolia. Others claim that Turks mixed with Greeks. But science says Turks are mostly Anatolian converts
If it weren't for Seljuk shits Turkey would be a nice country
>>75583892
>stop defending
I'm just telling you to observe events with regard for age they occurred. I already told you that in Persia age for marriage was 9.
>>75583997
Kuči are 1/3rd Albanian IIRC.
>>75584129
They deny it and praise Turan?
>>75577797
Anyone but arabs was good. Arabs were actually elevated by islam. Fucking hell, Mecca was a city wide brothel propably.
>>75584449
And Muhammad made it worse by making it 6.
He made it possible to marry own family members.
>>75584652
>Anyone but arabs was good. Arabs were actually elevated by islam.
They were not.
>inb4 le islamic golden age meme
many scientists of islamic golden age were Iranian
>Fucking hell, Mecca was a city wide brothel propably.
Mecca was a small trade town. Before islam, it was considered as one of the most holy cities in Arabia by Arabs.
>>75584449
>Kuči are 1/3rd Albanian IIRC.
yeah, they originated from albania
there's actually a good wiki on it;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku%C4%8Di
>>75584317
>If it weren't for Seljuk shits Turkey would be a nice country
please explain, I want to learn
Turkey mystifies me, seems pretty cool at times but then someone fucks it up -
Didn't people just get blown up today?
>>75577797
>>75579365
>Father marrying daughter or son marrying his mother is very good?
Sorry, I didn't mean for marriage, just as a thing to do. Father/daughter love is very good, if he wants to mess around with her when she's little it's all good.
>>75584984
>please explain, I want to learn
If we had stayed as Orthodox Christians, we would have not dealt with islam which is a backwards religion
>Turkey mystifies me, seems pretty cool at times but then someone fucks it up -
Turkey is shit
>Didn't people just get blown up today?
I don't know
>>75585151
>If we had stayed as Orthodox Christians, we would have not dealt with islam which is a backwards religion
True.
>>75585151
>Six killed, 20 injured in roadside bombings in southeast Turkey
Guess you're right about it being shit then
Are there any "muh heritage" anatolian-orthodox movements in Turkey?
>>75585151
Why couldn't the Turks have converted to Christianity like all the successful heathens?
>>75585618
Not orthodox. But some people started to claim Anatolian heritage. Kemalism is originally an Anatolianist movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism#Turanism
>>75586195
Thanks for the answers roa.. fuck it, thanks turkbro. Have a good night.
>>75586871
No problem, Jan Janszoon
>a thread on /pol/ that's actually informative on Islam before it went to shit
