In 20 years I might afford one.
>>2735053
Plenty of time to try to come up with a valid use for one then
>>2735055
by then Pentax will have a 645Z-II using it for a vaguely affordable price
>>2735055
Only the best for Mr. Socks my pet cat.
>>2735066
The Penetax 645zzmk8 will be out before /p/ comes up with a photo that requires a 645 sensor.
>>2735066
I wish, but I don't think it will happen. While the original lenses for the pentax 645 were "full frame" the newer lenses made for the 645D and 645Z have a much smaller image circle and will only be able to cover 44x33 instead of 54x40.
>>2735055
The resolution is not that important here. Mainly its the look of a larger sensor. Full frame medium format digital already exists, but only in CCD form. These new Sony CMOS medium format sensors blow the old CCD sensors away.
What would be the equivalent of the A7s in 645 or 6x6, around 31-40 Mp?
>>2735126
>the look of a larger sensor
Please enlighten us as to what that is.
>INB4 bokeh
>>2735130
The "look" of larger sensor or imaging area is not entirely related to bokeh, but the bokeh curve is different. The effect can be seen on shots done at infinity as well. However, even this effect is not entirely because of the size of the imaging area. It has to do with mostly the net resolving power of the lens in relation to the lens coverage and imaging area.
I am sure you've heard how the smaller the format the lens is made for, the easier/cheaper it is to increase resolving power. Despite the gains in resolution per mm, it generally breaks even since the imaging area or sensor size is smaller, so the net detail stays about the same. GENERALLY this stays proportional,
However, this does not mean that the resolution to sensor coverage curve scales linearly in difficulty and cost to design in RELATION to coverage.
Yes, a super large format lens will have much less resolving power per mm then a lens deisgned for 35mm. 8x10 large format has 59.7 times the area of 35mm. However, most decent large format lenses do not have 59.7 times LESS resolving power. You can end up with insane MTF ratios and effective resolving power at these scales. This combined with other factors contribute to what most people consider the "look" of a larger sensor.
>World's first 100MP Full Frame Medium Format CMOS
Pentacks BTFO. Ricohbro on suicide watch.
>>2735055
I for one welcome our new MF overlords.
Full frame is old and busted. MF is the new expensiveness.
> IIQ L 16bit – the first 16 bit CMOS file format
>With the XF 100MP Camera System, we are introducing a new file format custom built for the 100MP CMOS sensor, the “IIQ L 16bit”. While we have always delivered 16-bit color depth with CCD based systems, the 100MP is the first CMOS sensor to deliver true 16-bit output captured directly from the chip. To enable this functionality, IIQ L 16bit is the first dedicated file format to deliver efficient and precise 16-bit CMOS based images.
14 bit plebs down for the count.
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>>2735274
>tfw only 12bit
>or is it 11+7?
>>2735278
>15 stops of dynamic range
>The Phase One XF 100MP Camera System delivers an unparalleled 15 stops of dynamic range, retaining unmatched detail in both highlights and shadows. This is the highest performing system in terms of dynamic range that the Medium Format world has to offer. The Phase One XF 100MP Camera System is engineered to provide the detail and unmatched quality,demanded by the worlds leading photographers.
FIFTEEN STOPS. It stops 15 times!
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>>2735053
Medium format mirrorless with an electronic shutter when?
>>2735053
Dang! And I just bought an EOS M...
>>2735066
>by then Pentax will have a 645Z-II using it
LOL No. This is a custom sensor, designed to order. The design belongs to Phase One.
Pentacks will have to do their own ground work.
>>2735126
Outside of bandwidth and speed, why would a CMOS sensor be better?
>>2735281
>It stops 15 times!
I don't have time for that. I usually shoot at around 1/200th and there's no way I can hand hold a shutter speed slow enough for 15 different stops.
>>2735287
One would think the additional bandwidth and speed would allow for things that were not previously achievable...
>>2735286
What?
>>2735170
MTF ratios?
>>2735289
If it was just speed, he should have said speed.
"Blown away" in imaging sensors would generally mean a much higher image quality.
>>2735295
But Speed and bandwidth is exactly what allows for higher image quality. It can't be too easy to implement 16bit on-sensor analog-to-digital conversion on a slow sensor. It requires so much more bandwidth than 14 bit.
>>2735291
It means Pentacks will remain BTFO, because they can't afford to design such cutting edge sensors.
>>2735297
>on-sensor
I thought they just normally exported the data to the image processor.
>>2735297
>But Speed and bandwidth is exactly what allows for higher image quality.
you still need a sensor that's capable of resolving these info and translate the physics data into digital data
16bit vs 14bit color requires a "more precise" sensor, else you would get something like these 8bit monitors that can display 10bit color but not at the same time
image sensors aren't at that point even tho
>>2735301
That's what Canon thought as well. But they found out they would lose image quality.
>>2735300
They don't want to.
They don't want to even design a full frame camera.
>>2735302
>16bit vs 14bit color requires a "more precise" sensor
And that precision has more data which requires more speed and bandwidth.
>>2735303
care for an explanation?
>>2735303
What camera was that?
They haven't used CCD in almost a decade.
Also, what would stop Phase One from raising the clock speed of the sensor? Is the MP count the only gauge of importance?
>>2735307
Analog signal traveling from sensor to image processors, would travel farther and lose more data along the way. On-sensor conversion is the idea here.
>>2735306
Or a large buffer
>>2735309
Can't the trace resistance be accounted for?
>>2735308
Did you even read the subject that was talked about?
>>2735311
How can it be accounted for?
Maybe it isn't accounted for, and that's the reason why Canon is blown out of the water in every sensor reviews.
>>2735312
Where am I supposed to read?
>>2735310
Yes, put all your analog signals into a large buffer. That will surely help.
>>2735313
>How can it be accounted for?
The prediction of signal loss and its correction at the image processor.
What are these sensor reviews even looking at?
>>2735316
Maybe it's harder to do these predictions than you think. It's certainly not working out very well for Canon.
>>2735315
I'm sorry, I misread the reply.
I thought they were talking about vector processors.
>>2735306
ah, yes, of course, but seeing that cameras' speed bottleneck is far from being the sensor's speed I would imagine the reason why we don't have 16bit files around is because the sensors aren't accurate enough to resolve all of them correctly and precisely
>>2735322
The reason could be anything. Even "stupid" things like reserving that particular feature to protect higher price point products.
You were talking about CCD and thought sensor speed wasn't a bottleneck, seriously?
>>2735309
yeah that much I got, I was looking for an explanation about how that is related to canon, did they put that idea to use in some of their stuff?
>>2735311
>Can't the trace resistance be accounted for?
most likely not accurately enough
if you're talking values with a higher tolerance you may take a shot at it but if you're talking about a value that has to be precise to 1/2^12 or 1/2^14 of the possible range you're not gonna get much far with that
also resistance is gonna change between the different single cameras 'cause I highly doubt they have machinery that precise and material picked that carefully
>>2735326
>You were talking about CCD and thought sensor speed wasn't a bottleneck, seriously?
no, I meant that in modern cameras from canon, nikon and sony for example, sensor speed isn't a bottleneck
that considered I would hardly suppose sensor and converters speed is the reason why we don't see 16bit files around
>>2735330
>no, I meant that in modern cameras from canon, nikon and sony for example, sensor speed isn't a bottleneck
It's not an issue because they're not forcing the use of features that would exceed those bottlenecks. If they did, you would see slow sensor performances like 1 fps or 2 fps framerate at the fastest.
>>2735334
>If they did, you would see slow sensor performances like 1 fps or 2 fps framerate at the fastest.
sony released an update for the a7 range that added the support for 14bit raw files and AFAIK the burst speed didn't go down much
might it be the case that they could even go up to 16bit without any significant slowdown if they had sensors accurate enough
or course it's all fucking speculation because they don't really tell us what's going on but hey, dreaming is free
>>2735337
>AFAIK the burst speed didn't go down much
That's unrelated, because the RAW was always 14 bit coming out of the sensor.
It was just the processor outside the sensor that encoded it differently. And it did have an effect on how many images the buffer could store.
>>2735281
Fucking shitty red sensors giving 16.5 stops. What the fuck, sony, you are a huge fucking corporation with unlimited r&d resources, get you shit together and make at least 17 stops already.
>>2735342
LOL. Sony is just a mercenary for hire.
The R&D is limited to how much money Phase One is offering them.
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>>2735283
When they will make cmos sensors with global shutter. They were unable to reduce rolling shutter in a7s II with fucking 4k sensor and you talking about 100mp readout.
>>2735349
what filter do I use in Photoshop CS2 to get a look like this?
>>2735351
It's just contrasty lighting and basic s-curve.
>>2735350
>They were unable to reduce rolling shutter in a7s II
That's because current sensors aren't fast enough, contrary to what the other Anon said.
>Rolling shutter.
>Colour bit resolution.
>Image size resolution.
Are all good reasons why our sensors need to be continuously faster and faster.
>>2735349
>how much money Phase One offering them
KEK
Phase One is small company that uses 20 years old Mamiya developments. Their mainline sensors are fucking CCD that techologically are from early 2000-s because they have no resources to develop something better on their own.
It's other way round, Sony want to enter medium format market but they have no experience and this deal is just first step. In few years they will drop Phase and start making their own, you can screencap this.
8×10 digital mirrorless when
Based Phase One showing the poor plebs the door.
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>>2735318
Do you have a problem with Canon?
All manufacturers are trying to work past this problem.
>>2735386
All other manufacturers have on-sensor analog-digital conversion.
Maybe I used Canon as counter example because they are the only ones with the issue.
>>2735388
I'm not familiar with this issue.
Canon uses CMOS but doesn't place the a/d converters on chip?
>>2735390
>Canon uses CMOS but doesn't place the a/d converters on chip?
Yes. their CMOS factories are over a decade old, and not advanced enough for that.
>>2735392
I didn't know that.
Who has "advanced" fabrication facilities?
Is that why Nikon outsources their sensors to Sony?
>>2735397
I don't really care. It's just different survival strategies.
Canon choose to use their fortune on more marketing.
The others choose to use their money on more advanced factories.
Currently Canon's strategy has given them the edge, but we will see what happens in the future.
>>2735264
>Full Frame Medium Format
What does that mean?
>>2735407
It means it's much larger than full frame 35mm format.
>>2735408
Why not just call it medium format then? Isn't 645 the smallest frame in terms of medium format?
>>2735417
No, there are smaller sensors than that which still goes by "medium format".
>>2735420
Like what? Haven't heard of anything smaller than 645
>>2735430
Like this.
That one over there for example>>2735066
>>2735443
So previous 645 digital backs weren't actually full 645? Were there actually full 645 digital backs before this new Phase One?
>>2735448
With CCD. But not CMOS.
Hence World's first 100MP Full Frame Medium Format CMOS.
>>2735285
Is this a troll?
>>2735281
What's a normal DSLR? Like 10?
>>2735285
Did you fall for the EOS M meme
>>2735585
Canon, 12 Sony/Nikon/Pentax/Fuji, 14
>>2735461
That's a joke.
The troll is the one thread who start out asking simple questions, pretending he isn't familiar with the issue hoping he can make you slip up on the explanation ob further questioning (but then still be btfo because he didn't know the issue)
>>2735311
nigga resistance ain't shit. every wire is an antenna and the longer the wire the more garbage it's going to pick up from all that digital circuitry around it. not to mention the extra parasitic inductance and capacitance limiting the speed of data transfer.
Next step.
>>2735600
I think we just confused two people for the same.
One genuinely didn't know why internal bandwidth on a sensor could be important, the other is the Canon troll.
>>2735626
I have a feeling Sony is going to stay away from this niche.
They are more the type of company who tries to make consumer products, sometimes succeeding so well that some pros get tempted into said consumer products.
This MF thing is too small a market for this strategy though.
What is the burst framerate of this new 16 bit mode? 100 mp at 16 bit colour precision requires a shitload of bandwidth. I don't think this is going to be a very fast framerate camera.
>>2735636
This isn't a burst framerate kind of camera.
>>2735636
????? "What kind of gas mileage does this fighter jet get? I bet it's not very good gas mileage"
>>2735053
>Phase One and Sony Design a New 100MP Full 645 Meidum format sensor
So THIS was the reason why Sony announced the death of CCD production earlier this year.
They had this beast on the drawing board all along.
Mother of God. Look at those full resolution samples
http://762ba78f20586f58a0ec-6754bf9eed83d54fecae5498b4b8af30.r44.cf5.rackcdn.com/PhaseOne_XF100MP_Fullres_Tifs_Peter_Eastway.zip
http://762ba78f20586f58a0ec-6754bf9eed83d54fecae5498b4b8af30.r44.cf5.rackcdn.com/PhaseOne_XF100MP_Fullres_Tifs.zip
This is what happens when Medium format gets all the fancy new technology that was previously only available on smaller sensors.
The difference between new Medium Format and the smaller Full Frames will widen up really hard.
>>2735718
>The difference between new Medium Format and the smaller Full Frames will widen up really hard.
There's pretty much always been a yawning gulf between the two. The only thing full frame has on DMF is low light performance.
>>2735631
>They are more the type of company who tries to make consumer products
They often suck at trying their hand at the consumer market. Betamax, Minidiscs and others. They often perform best at the professional market, where Betacam and Minidiscs are still partially used and where U-matic used to be used or when they copy another companies design and mass produce it for the consumer market. They often don't do so well at pushing their own ideas (Cell processor of the PS3) onto the consumer market.
>>2735300
Pentax is owned by a billion dollar company while Phase one is a million dollar company. If phase one can pay sony to make a sensor so can pentax.
>>2735066
>Implying they won't just replace it with a 67 digital instead
>>2735732
But they still have to answer to the parent company about the financials.
They can't just splurge a ton of money on projects that doesn't make money back. Their current profitable products seems to be smaller consumer cameras.
>>2735737
The same applies to phase one. They have to answer to their parent company.
>>2735739
But they are already given green light to develop this type of class leading sensor.
Pentax doesn't have this kind of permission to throw around the money.
>>2735741
Pentax makes medium format digital cameras. If phase one has the resources so does pentax. Whether they have the willingness or permission is a different matter.
>>2735743
Permission is everything Anon. You need to make your products rake in money and your investor will give you more permission. Phase One is obviously doing fine in this regard.
>I use Phase One because it’s the best. I just can’t afford not to.
>>2735748
Well, that is a ridiculously good photograph.
>>2735365
>In few years they will drop Phase and start making their own
Right now they have a "I rub your back, you rub my back" kind of deal going on. There is a Capture One edition for sony cameras that are 80% cheaper than the regular Capture One program. And Sony is probably giving them some rebates on the sensors for that. They seem to be more closely knitted than the others since Phase One is also a software maker.
>>2735744
Pentax rakes in more money than phase one.
>>2735771
Their successful products are cheaper APS-C consumer cameras. And that's what they get more permission to do.
On the Medium Format scene, they are now mostly doing cheaper crop sensors.
>>2735643
I kekkled
>>2735349
I just want to know what camera this was taken on.
>>2735991
Are you unsure of which thread you're in?
https://www.phaseone.com/en/Products/Camera-Systems/XF100MP.aspx#&gid=null&pid=4
>>2735349
XF - Better than being there
Forget upgrading cameras further, we're going to start having to upgrade our models... how many people out there are pretty enough to be shot by this thing?
>>2735614
>the extra parasitic inductance and capacitance
the signal coming out of each pixel of the sensor would be a direct current signal, so you'd only need to take resistance into account
of course the rest is right tho
I think were getting dangerously to the point where imaging technology is catching on to our pores and not so pretty sides
>>2736032
>artschooler trying to explain electronics and high frequency currents
>>2736033
>I would think a portion of the people who own these kinda cameras would use them for very HQ snapshits
Oh god I hope not. It's $50,000!
>>2736034
This has been the case for quite some time. A 5Dmk2 with a 135 prime is "too sharp" for a lot of people. With serious stuff like high fashion work, you have a team of hair and makeup people, as well as dedicated off site processing for just that reason. Humans are just literally too flawed to stand up to 100mp and a competent lens. But when those teams all do their jobs well, the results can obviously be incredible.
>>2736035
>high frequency currents
the high frequency signals would be digital and these may cause noise in the signal going from the sensor to the converters
the signal there tho would maintain the same voltage
please either school me on how I'm wrong or gtfo
>>2736036
>Oh god I hope not. It's $50,000!
well why not?
there are people who buy private jets and 20 cars just for show, why wouldn't there be people doing the same stuff with cameras?
>>2736039
This is very true I suppose. And I guess no matter what photos they take with it, every sale is good for the ecosystem, market wise.
>>2736021
Yeah, I'm retarded.
But know I just want to know what other cameras can take pictures like that, cause I can't afford and don't really want this one.
>>2736054
There are none. That's the point of this camera.
>>2736054
Pentax 645Z is the most affordable modern digital MF camera right now, 50 pickles should be enough for that with some godlike 67 lenses.
645D if you can live with 3 second writing per RAW image and a bit of mirrorslap. But you can do all this in the rain and snow without worrying about your gear.
>>2735631
This may be right.
They'll let their sensor buyers duke it out amongst themselves.
Remember that Fuji has some kind of digi MF thing in the works; probably rangefinder style like their old MF cams.
MF xpro1 style cam with a sensor like this or one close to it?
I'm fucking there.
>>2736111
haha okay then.
You can get a medium format film camera that uses the same size "sensor" for about $100.
Pentax 645(n)
Bronica ETRS
And then you'll want some portrait lenses, which will be about 150mm or longer.
Then, learn lighting, posing, and probably film development.
>50 pickles
50 metapixels
>godlike 67 lenses
Pentax makes very good lenses for their 6x7 system which is larger than 645 format
>645D
is the older version, before the 645Z. It's nice, but not nearly as refined as the 645Z, and has an older lower resolution sensor.
>3 seconds per RAW
If you shoot raw on the 645D, it takes about three seconds to write the image to the memory card, because it's a slower camera, and the files are very large.
>mirrorslap
The mirror mechanism is large and heavy, so when it jumps out of the way to expose the sensor, it's loud and jarring, and can lead to lower resolution in the photo if it isn't braces correctly to counteract vibration.
>rain and snow
Pentax is weather sealed.
>>2736114
I think it's possible if it's fixed lens as the picture implies, Sony is more likely to do an Medium Format fixed lens.
Just not if it's interchangeable.
>>2736038
Not that Anon. But you should just look at how Canon cameras perform in reality when they lose in the dynamic range benchmarks to Nikon and Sony to realise all your fancy theories are bullshit wishful thinking.
In reality, Canon already threw the towel in the ring and realised they had to acquire a more advanced fab so they could catch up to the others and have analog digital conversion in the sensor.
>>2736115
3 seconds doesn't sound bad, it's just 3 seconds.
>and can lead to lower resolution in the photo if it isn't braces correctly to counteract vibration.
Huh?
Anyway, it's not like I can afford either of these cameras.
I need to focus on getting a video camera first anyway so I can submit to Sundance.
If I do get a camera just for pictures I'll probably just end up settling for the Canon EOS 40D.
>>2736123
>Huh?
Camera shake induces blur into the image, which means details that would have been nice and sharp become muddy and muffled, which lowers the perceived resolution of the photo.
>40D
Well there you go.
>>2736123
I bought my 40D new 7 years ago and its still my only dslr today. its really solid, the only modern things I wish it had are video and better high ISO performance. that's it.
pic related, 7 year old 40d with the kit lens and a cheap CPL filter
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>>2736123
Also a 40D, with a "shitty" Tamron 28-75mm lens.
I don't have a larger resolution on me at the moment, but I have this printed out and at 19x28" and it looks beautiful.
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>>2736170
That camera deserves better lens.
>>2736181
Those dunes are looking at me.
>>2736183
In the print, you get lost in the tops of them. The detail in there is jarring almost.
>>2736129
>Camera shake induces blur into the image, which means details that would have been nice and sharp become muddy and muffled, which lowers the perceived resolution of the photo.
That sucks. I have a hard time keeping my hands steady.
>Well there you go.
I still want to thank you for telling me about the 645D and 645Z, If I ever have the chance I'll try to get one of them.
>>2736170
>>2736181
Oh wow, these are fantastic.
Thank you. I'm a really paranoid person and I was having doubts about the 40D.
I gotta ask though what do you mean by "with the kit lens"? I know what a lens is, but what kit?
>>2736194
>Kit lens
The stock lens you get in a camera "kit"
You can buy a camera as "body only" with no lens. So when there is a lens included, it becomes a "kit" and the "kit lens" for a crop sensor camera like the 40D is the 18-55 f/3.5-5.6
>>2736182
I also have the 50 1.8, 10-22 ef-s, and 100 2.8.
on that hiking trip I only wanted to bring the all-around lens.
>>2736194
the lens that is normally sold together with the camera, in my case it's the 28-135 IS. the stabilizer is really good but its otherwise mediocre.
the 10-22 is super wide angle as in pic related.
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IQ180 with a Schneider Kreuznach 80mm at 600optical dpi
I get a shot per second with this, tethered, but it hiccups sometimes. It's a lot of data to push around for your camera and computer, it's just how it is. If you need to shoot fast then use a camera that is suited for that mode.
I like Phase One. I've met and talked with some of the company and I really feel like they care about what they're doing. Good for them for being successful. I've worked with the P45s, P65s, and now the IQ180 and 280s. I've got the 645DF and found it easy to work with, though I haven't used it so much, not nearly as much as I'd like to. The Digital Backs performed very well over the past 7 years, and I still have two P45s working daily. I've also been using Capture One for tethered capture and all post, and can't imagine using anything else. I still do some tweaks in photoshop, though. Capture One can get a little convoluted the further you get into it. But yeah, it's a big price tag. The P65s you can probably find refurbed now, though.
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>>2735264
>5-year warranty
For fuck's sake. They know their shit will break after only 5 years.
No thank you. I'll stick with my decade-old D50.
Don't really see me replacing my 645Z anytime soon, I really can't imagine a use for more pixels than what I already get.
I would rather Pentax make more 33x44-optimized zooms like the 28-45mm. Someone tested it against an IQ180 with a freaking prime lens and it was difficult to tell apart the samples.
Nice development though.
>>2736230
Rats! I'm sure they'll disappointed to learn that, since their target market this whole time has been "poorfag photographers who are still using obsolete entry level equipment from last decade".
>>2736230
five year warranty for pro gear, as well as a super attentive and accommodating staff is pretty incredible. Most tech is 1 or 2 year limited warranty.
Also, think of the wear these things will take in that time. They're really only made for massive full time studios and such, who will be putting hundreds of photos on them a day, nearly every day, for those 5 years.
>>2735397
>Who has "advanced" fabrication facilities?
Sony and Samsung.
>>2735748
>I just can’t afford not to.
LaChapelle probably installed colored LED lights on the pipes to actually make them glow pink instead of touching the photograph up later.
>>2736230
Are we meant to care that you're poor? Go away.
>>2736280
That shot is made up of plastic cups, drinking straws and toilet paper tubes. Not even kidding, look it up on youtube.
>>2736391
never noticed lol. thats a humorous guy.
>>2735384
that picture is a bit misleading desu
also, muh megapixels
>>2736032
what are you even talking about? are you suggesting running 100 million PCB traces with analog latches and buffers to a bank of ADCs?
>>2736885
He's just following in the footsteps of his CEO.
Avoid upgrading those 500nm fabs at all costs. avoid those on-sensor ADCs, they are the work of the devil.
