Who else is reading the Scarborough transit and LRT proposal tonight?
Major transit happenings in Toronto recently. Excited to see what units they'll be running on smarttrack too
link
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-87737.pdf
>>916522
But, but, what about the existing SRT line?
You know, the one that's an automatic maglev ... except it's a really special one with the added feature of drivers, and cars that touch the tracks.
>>916541
the whole point of smart track was to use existing space used for the go train system and integrate it with the TTC. by 2017, it'll probably cost $3.50 to get on the bus and you'll have to use a presto card. Ellesmere, midland, and mccowan stations are nearly ghost towns. The LRT is going to be a much needed relief for anyone who's tried travelling all the way across Eglinton on a packed bus
>>916522
There are still some unanswered questions to this plan, especially with SmartTrack. While this map does show ST, Metrolinx has no intention of extending it north of Kennedy as they have listed it as a "Future Development". So this inevitably leaves a hole in the system specifically on Lawrence.
The Crosstown extension is a welcomed change but anyone is fooling themselves if they honestly believe it will be operated as one seamless line from Pearson to UTSC. As well the BD extension itself will be operated at reduced capacity but that is often overlooked and never brought up.
Finally the lack of any commitment on Sheppard East is only going to fuel the "Sheppard Subway Extension" fire during the 2018 municipal election.
>>916522
>Tory still trying to push the SmartTrack shit
Metrolinx should just threaten to cut funding to Toronto if that prat doesn't stop trying to push his shitty project.
>>916522
Ultra comfy for me if smarttrack happens, Markham to U of T Scarborough all day
>>916522
vawqes
don't you have a blog to write, steve munro?
Not related to the Scarborough clusterfuck, but:
The prefered alignment of the Relief Line will be on Queen Street, with a station between Queen and Osgoode (by city hall/Nathan Philips Square).
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/queen-street-route-proposed-for-new-toronto-subway/article28460818/
Also, UP Express will be free on the Family Day weekend (Saturday February 13, to Monday February 15.)
https://twitter.com/UPexpress/status/696812717395550209
>>922228
>No direct connection with line 1
I don't know how to feel about this
>>922375
Apparently the station at City hall would connect to both Queen and Osgoode since the distance between the three sites is very short. You would essentially walk from Yonge-Queen to City Hall (or Osgoode to City Hall) without leaving the station. Think Spadina but planned better hopefully.
Now this plan is the Cities Plan. Metrolinx on the otherhand says the DRL should proceed from Don Mills to St. Andrew along King Street. Just proving yet again that the City and Metrolinx are never on the same page.
>>916522
Wow, Ontario really has shit transit planning.
>>922401
Yep , nothing is done until it actually becomes a problem.
>>922400
>Apparently the station at City hall would connect to both Queen and Osgoode since the distance between the three sites is very short. You would essentially walk from Yonge-Queen to City Hall (or Osgoode to City Hall) without leaving the station
So ideally it would look something like the Berri-UQAM complex in Montréal?
>Just proving yet again that the City and Metrolinx are never on the same page.
Why hasn't one of the agencies been removed and the powers delegated to the other? Who insists on keeping two planning departments in place?
>>922401
I'm gonna quote an article I've kept for prosperity that in my opinion sums up the reality of public transport in the Greater Toronto Area:
"It’s axiomatic in Toronto (let’s call it “Ford’s Law”) that as any transit proposal gets close to implementation, the probability of someone trying to railroad through an expensive and controversial counter-proposal approaches 1."
>>922428
>Just proving yet again that the City and Metrolinx are never on the same page.
Well Metrolinx was created by the province to streamline transit planning on a regional scale. For all intents and purposes it works, however the regional planning aspects almost never mix with the city planning since each city in the GTHA has its own way of doing things. What ends up happening is Metrolinx plans get shit on by city councils and city based plans get shit on by Metrolinx since everyone talks among themselves.
We can't really merge all the agencies together since doing so would place the majority of the financial burden on the TTC since it generates the most money. The TTC has made it perfectly clear that it will not subsidize other cities transit problems and rightly so. Also Metrolinx is run by goofs who make simple things complicated (see Eglinton Crosstown station names).
On the other hand leaving everyone separate allows this shitshow in transit planning in the GTHA to continue.
>>922485
To put it simply Metrolinx is good at regional planning but they have no concept of transit planning on a local scale. Whereas Cities like to think they know whats good on the local level but rarely if ever look at how there decisions impact the region, and will more often then not ignore Metrolinx and common sense.
Transit in the GTHA needs to be integrated there is no doubt about it, but nobody seems to know how to do it. the MTA, CTA, Transport for London and other agencies figured it out (to one degree or another) but the GTHA just can't work together.
>>922488
Don't the Metrolinx planners have a massive fetish for Paris? Surely did could study and adapt the hierarchy used by the STIF?
>>922740
>did
they*
>>922740
Maybe but even then Metrolinx also has a massive fetish for "Made in Ontario". If it isn't their idea it doesn't work. To be honest this isn't really Metrolinx's doing, the province has always had this mindset i.e ICTS technology used on the SRT and in Vancouver, and the Orion VI busses.
PRESTO is a great example of Metrolinx looking to places like Paris for example, but than believing they could do it themselves and better. You know because muh made in Ontario mentality.
>>922749
I suppose you're right. The made in Ontario mentality seems pretty prevalent at all levels of government too (didn't Miller state that Bombardier was the only option for manufacturing new subway cars?). Still, I wish someone with some marketing skills would join the ranks of Metrolinx and "sell" the Metrolinx plans to the government entities. Their studies are really neat but they really suck at communicating their plans in a clear way to the populace.
The whole LRT vs. subway semantic confusion in Scarborough was an absolute joke that could have been avoided if someone had established that "LRT" doesn't automatically mean "streetcar".
>i.e ICTS technology used on the SRT and in Vancouver, and the Orion VI busses.
Oh God those. Are the Orion and UTDC factories even being used for building anything these days?
>PRESTO is a great example of Metrolinx looking to places like Paris for example, but than believing they could do it themselves and better. You know because muh made in Ontario mentality.
Presto is such a pain in the ass in the Ottawa-Gatineau region. OC Transpo and the STO use two different smartcard systems and they don't work well together.
>>922828
>The made in Ontario mentality seems pretty prevalent at all levels of government too (didn't Miller state that Bombardier was the only option for manufacturing new subway cars?)
It was either that with the Toronto Rocket, or the current fiasco with the Flexity Outlook streetcars when the City Council awarded to contract to Bombardier when Siemens was intrested in the bid
>>922828
>Are the Orion and UTDC factories even being used for building anything these days?
I don't know what the Orion factory is used for since Orion is gone, and the UTDS facility I would assume is used by Bombardier since they bought UTDC. I know the test facility in Milhaven is used by Bombardier.
Its really unfortuante what happened with the Orion VI's since we already had a bunch of Flyer LF's and they where great (and still are). We even tested Nova's LFS back in the day but we went with Orion.
>>923126
Well Siemens bid was like two times higher since they would have to design custom bogies for Toronto's track gauge instead of using standard bogies like usual.
I don't think any one expected such a huge fuck up with the streetcars though. The T1's and TR's came out pretty good (if not a tiny bit problematic at the start). Luckily as far as I know TTC has banned Bombardier from bidding on future contracts. So when the T1's get retired we may be seeing Siemens trains in Toronto.
Even worse though Bombardier is doing the vehicles for Waterloo ION, Hamilton B-Line and Toronto's LRT's and Bombardier is late sending Metrolinx a prototype FLEXITY Freedom.
>>923146
>So when the T1's get retired we may be seeing Siemens trains in Toronto.
Doubt it. We'll probably see Alstom rolling stock. Siemens has no installed manufacturing base in Ontario and Alstom is buddy-buddy with Bombardier and they could probably just rent out the old CanCar factory for cheap.
>>923270
>Alstom is buddy-buddy with Bombardier
Well that explains why Alstom provides the software that runs the SRT.
>>916763
>by 2017, it'll probably cost $3.50 to get on the bus
Oh no, you poor souls.
t. York Region.
>>923439
>York Region bought into the Privatize Transit meme
Now look what happened, terrible service at a terrible price
>>923555
YRT isn't exactly "privatized" like Hong Kong's bus companies, but each section is contracted out to different companies similar to London, UK [lolnospoiler] and that still managed to fuck York Region right in the ass anyway during the strike [/lolnospoiler]
>>923439
Hey remember when YRT buses only cost $2.25 and we all thought that was already rather steep?
Good times, good times.
UP Express fares will be dropped starting on March 9th.
>Without Presto:
$27.50 > $12
>With Presto:
$19 > $9
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/02/23/upx-to-slash-fare-by-more-than-half.html
>>926791
>fares dropping anywhere, ever
>tfw Transit City has come back from the dead
>Eglinton Crosstown gets extended to Pearson
>Finch West LRT construction starts next year
>Scarborough-Malvern LRT on the books
>Waterfront LRT and Jane Street LRT labeled as priority
>DRL is once again under serious consideration
Guess the only downside here is that Sheppard East is no longer getting an LRT but instead BRT though no one knows if it will be lanes in a Private-ROW or not.
I am just curious, will the subway really matter if driverless cars really start to transform public transportation.
Buses already cost ~500k, seems like they would be ripe to turned into driver-less solutions.
For every 5-10 employees replaced they could easily get another bus.
>>926791
>UPX ridership hit a low of 65,593 in November, down by more than 13,000 passengers from the October high of 79,000. It will take about 7,000 riders a day for UPX to break even, something Metrolinx was targeting within three years of the launch. There were about 2,200 per day in December
So on the low end, UPX needs 133K in revenue per day to break even.
Even if all their riders don't use presto at the new prices they will need ~11,000 riders per day just to break even.
And that weekend when it was free these are the ridership numbers
>But ridership increased almost fivefold this weekend. About 10,000 people boarded trains on Saturday, and 13,500 did on Sunday.
honestly, it looks like UPX will never make any money and just be another moneypit.
>>926827
Because public roads are subsidized, and building and maintaining roads is a money pit.
>>926830
Still doesn't address the half billion dollar clusterfuck of UPX
Roads are far more necessary than UPX will ever be and already are paid for (partially) through taxes on gasoline.
>at least they didn't get bombardier to build the trains
I'm not against spending money on public transportation, but I just want that money to be well spent.
its a mess, you will never get a solution that everyone wants, instead we should focus on a solution that benefits the most people the least amount of money.
>billy bishop airport
>bike lanes
>toll roads
>UPX
>subway expansion
we will never have a consensus on any of those issues/projects.
>>926820
>tfw Transit City has come back from the dead
I like how we're right back at square one. The political class in the GTA has essentially spent the last 5+ years screaming at clouds.
Kind of convenient for Metrolinx though, they don't even have to spend money on studies since they can just recycle the studies they did for Transit City.
>>926827
>I am just curious, will the subway really matter if driverless cars really start to transform public transportation.
Driverless cars are years, possibly decades away. We might as well be studying the effects of robo-waifus on NEETs.
>honestly, it looks like UPX will never make any money and just be another moneypit.
I can't wait to bail them out. Another great success for 3Ps.
>>926912
>Driverless cars are years, possibly decades away. We might as well be studying the effects of robo-waifus on NEETs.
Nah, technology is progressing very quickly.
It's not even a hardware issue at this point, its all software.
Google cars have a very expensive (~70K ) type of LIDAR system on their cars to 'see' the world.
70K is change compared to the cost of the bus and replacing the driver.
I got told basically the same thing 3 years ago, that 4K monitors and TVs won't come down in price that fast, and gpus won't have the power for 4K
I can guarantee you that a driver less car will be available for purchase before any kind of subway expansion is even close to being finished.
As a more liberal time frame, I put driverless systems for sale in less than 5 years.
>>926922
>Nah, technology is progressing very quickly.
Remember, car makers were showing EV prototypes in the 70s and we still don't have a viable electric economy car. The Google prototype can't even drive in snow or rain yet.
>>926943
EV is a hardware issue, and like fuel cells, they only did it to look responsible, and once legislation was loosened up a bit they went back to business as usual with dino oil.
>>926943
>Remember, car makers were showing EV prototypes
Yes and those EV prototypes were just that, showcasing some new technology/design but it was far from market ready.
> viable electric economy car.
I would argue we do already,
The nissan leaf, there are a few plug in variants of various cars already too.
Maybe what is really holding back the ev market is range and style in that order.
For the majority of people the leaf would be enough for them for the daily activities, but people want some imaginary freedom of being able to go 400 miles on a tank/charge even if that just isn't the reality of how they actually use their cars.
While you might think its not going anywhere any time soon, everyone is racing towards this stuff, not just putting out expensive toys at some showcase.
>>926958
You can buy a Maxima for about the same price as a Leaf and that's a more versatile luxury car. If you calculate how much gas you use in a month you'll probably find out that it would take you years to make up the difference in price between a cheaper petrol car and the Leaf.
EVs still don't make sense financially.
>>926967
> take you years to make up the difference in price between a cheaper petrol car
And people do keep their cars for years, so eventually they will come out ahead, but it depends on the cars being compared and the price of gasoline.
With now oil prices currently the savings just are not substantial enough
Some people are ok with paying more if it means supporting some idea of theirs, such as 100% recycled materials, zero emissions or whatever.
In the same way some people want to pay more for a big engine, or 4 wheel drive. Everyone has their own priorities when they spend money.
>>927035
The battery prices keep dropping, but gas keeps dropping just a little more to stay competitive. gas can't keep dropping forever though.
>>927052
>gas can't keep dropping forever though.
Neither can batteries or the energy needed to recharge them.
>>927074
The electricity to charge them is already cheap, since it come come from any variety of sources and fuels. It's a battery issue. Graphene looks promising.
>>927076
It's cheap currently because of economies of scale and the relative lack of demand. Once EV adoption increases the infrastructure upgrades and increased demand will drive up energy prices.
>graphene
Should be a useful battery about the same time we figure out fusion power
>>927078
You're implying there's 0 growth potential for electricity, and electricity is a finite resource.
>>927052
Oh I understand, the point I was making was that these low prices make EV/Hybrids less appealing to the consumer.
>low gas prices
>some companies focus on large cars that make them lots of money
>what could go wrong ?
Its honestly like history is going to repeat itself, maybe with another bailout.
>927078
>lack of demand
nigga, wtf are you talking about the world runs on electricity.
>that jab at fusion power
funny that you should mention that, since we are very close to achieving that also.
I think you're underestimating just how efficient an electric car is, it costs less than $10 to charge a tesla for example.
York Region is asking the Prime Minister for $4 billion to fund the Yonge subway extension to Richmond Hill Centre.
>"But the deputy mayor of Richmond Hill said it’s possible shovels could be in the ground on Yonge St. by 2019."
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/2016/03/02/york-region-pitches-justin-trudeau-on-yonge-subway-extension.html
>>929176
York Region can't even afford to build another Subway extension into their region. Besides any future extensions or plans that impact the YUS should really be put behind the DRL first.
>>929192
In all honesty the Yonge extension should've been the 1st York Region extension. Richmond Hill Centre Terminal is real busy pretty much any time of day
>>929176
Vaughn is just a trash bigbox complex for tourists and rural motherfuckers
is there even a stressed bus system there now?
>>929988
Mostly car country up there in all honesty
Even during rush hour traffic, the viva buses are only like half full
>>930742
Might be because they charge ~6$ for the bus now.
Or has it gone down?
>>930746
$4 cash fare
slightly cheaper if you use PRESTO or if youre travelling a lot, a monthly pass
>>930831
Except Bessarion
RIP Bessarion
>>930831
>Implying Concord Park Place (the supposed development next to the Bessarion Station) will ever finish
laughingdevelopers.gif
>Starting April, 4 streetcars a month.
>54 streetcars by the end of 2016.
...
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/2016/03/14/ttc-to-receive-four-streetcars-a-month-starting-in-april.html
>>926827
Driverless cars will still suffer from the same capacity issues and congestion that roads still face. Unless every driverless car a 7 seat cab that continuously picks up and drops off people on demand at high utilization, it's not going to make a significant difference to transportation capacity. Rail transit will still hold higher capacity with less space
>>929176
this would just be irresponsible considering the congestion on the line already (Tory said this too)
>>929176
Please extend it all the way to Barrie.
>>933371
>all that shit on the roof of the Flexity
I knew that low floor trams were a pain to build due to the limited amount of space for wiring but holy shit that looks complicated.
Weedman's making it rain, exciting times for the entire country.
In London we were only going to do BRT, now we're getting both BRT and LRT.
>>933423
>thinking cities will actually get money
lel
>>933410
If youve ever been up Yonge street past Newmarket, you'd know how it gets real empty for miles before you even get to lake Simcoe. If anything, I'd settle for all day GO train service
The subways in their final form probably won't stretch past Highway 7 in the north (maybe further for Vaughan Mills and maybe Wonderland) and Mississauga in the west
The Federal Budget was released this Tuesday. (All of) Ontario is to receive ~$1.5 billion for public transit funding.
Allocated funds for public transit in other provinces/territories are shown in the pic.
http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/federal-budget-2016-spends-up-to-3-4b-in-public-transit-to-address-lost-productivity-but-falls-short-of-via-rail-demands
TTC has approved a new streetcar route, 514 Cherry. It will run from Dufferin Gate Loop (from the west) to Cherry Street Loop (in the east) via King Street. It will launch this June.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/ttc-to-add-streetcar-route-to-congested-king-street/article29374236/
>>933422
It's no more complicated than having the same shit underneath the floor. If anything, it's more accessible to the maintenance engineers up there.
The technical challenge with low floor is with the things you can't put on the roof. Namely wheelsets and motors.
>>933423
>thinking that LRT will ever actually happen in London
good luck getting western on board. Physics proffs are already complaining about electromagnetic infetterence
>tfw urban planning decisions are being left in the hands of politicians and as a result subway services are being expanded into the suburbs instead of creating a denser network in the urban core
fucking retarded
>>941181
>implying the DRL isn't being built because of a lack of funds rather than suburban voters
If an extension out to the suburbs goes 400$ million dollars over budget then no one is going to want to pony up the money for a line that is going to be routed beneath all those multi-million dollar McCondos and possibly damage them and cost millions upon millions in repairs.
>>922437
Accurate as fuck.
>>933402
Perhaps it might help a little though. I would imagine that without the need to worry about human error, cars would be really close to each other even in high speeds. Also, humans are partially responsible for making traffic jams worse than they should be, but a machine would correct it. Also, it's possible that intersections would work a lot different and more efficient than they do now. Combine this with ride share (not Uber, which requires human drivers) and we might actually see a significant boost in transportation efficiency across the developed world.
>>922437
Well they usually finalize right as elections come up.
>>922485
The province finally started resorting to ultimatums.
>Accept this or you're getting nothing
ie. What happened with that disaster called Brampton and their Main St. LRT
>>941667
>thinks all cars will be automated
>doesn't consider pedestrians at intersections
>implies people will give up on the privacy of their car
Hi Musk. How are your subsidy dependant projects coming along?
>>941676
Didn't they resort to them from day 1? Outside of the Scarborough shitshow all the projects have had those conditions in place.
>>941684
It's definitely going to be quite far into the future. Still, mass transit will still be the most efficient way to meet the transportation demands of the 21st century and beyond.
>>941676
Yep it is unfortunate it has had to come to this, but at this point it's a necessary evil. Without such ultimatums nothing will get done.
