Hey guys, does anybody have a lot of knowledge of 6/7 speed era wheel components? I've got a couple bikes I want to build wheelsets for and I was thinking about sinking a wad of cash into some nice NOS 80's gear.
Should I go sealed system or cup and cone? I don't mind doing maintenance, the key thing is that if I'm going to buy NOS, I'm hoping to get something that will last a LONG time, which isn't often the case with sealed. Opinions?
What kind of spokes should I get? At what point does the cost outweigh the benefit?
Also if you guys have any recommendations in terms of brands, for both hubs and rims that would be awesome, would like to keep it period, but open to suggestions for new rims as well. I have a set of Araya red label rims I quite like right now so I was thinking maybe them? Would love to hear some opinions on 80's Wolber, Mavic, Campy clinchers. As for hubs I hear good things about Sansin, and SunTour's Superbe Pro. Phil Wood's probably a little more than I want to spend, really like all the high flange stuff from the 70's like Campy Record but it's not exactly period, and looks heavy. In the interest of keeping a complete groupo, wouldn't mind some Shimano 600 hubs from back in the day, anyone have experience with those?
Would SunTour's "XC" hubs be suitable for road applications?
Also heard the names Miche, Nuovo Tipo, Maxi Car, Hi-E and Bullseye for hubs,
Campy Sigma, Rigida, Ambrosia, clement, Benotto I've seen mentioned for rims
Is it difficult to build a wheel?
>>900347
Just takes a lot of time and patience the first few times from what I've heard. Haven't actually built one from scratch yet myself, planning to do some volunteering down at the community shop to gain some experience before I blow a stack on nice components to build with. I have done some pretty major overhauls on rims before though, changing a lot of spokes, etc. So I think I'm up to it.
Araya rims are pretty great
That's all I wanted to say
Yeah I absolutely love my set. I need to open up the hubs and see if "sealed system" really means sealed system or if I can repack. They're still pretty buttery but there's this one tiny grind i'd love to get rid of.
also, catalog game ridiculous
>>900356
is Araya still around?
>>900360
I think their name brand was bought by a crappy Chinese corporation, or something.
>>900377
why.jpg
What do you guys think of the Crank Brothers wheels? I spotted these in a magazine years ago and always thought they looked cool as fuck.
>>900404
I've never known low spoke count to be a good thing but those are pretty cool looking for sure
That's a lot of questions OP...
>sealed system or cup and cone?
There's not that much difference: with cartridge bearings there's less to go wrong during the adjustment process and you won't damage the hub by forgetting regular maintenance, but on the other hand, repacking your loose bearing hubs once per year or so is a very small investment of time and effort.
>What kind of spokes should I get?
Get double-butted spokes, 14/15 gauge is most common and sufficient unless you're building wheels for a rider weighing over 250 pounds. Brands don't matter. Bladed gives almost no benefit, not worth paying extra. Straight gauge works okay, but DB handle stress better and aren't much more expensive if you shop around, so why would you ever pick straight?
Protip: the cheapest place to get DB spokes online is usually either one of the ebay sellers who cut them to order, or the mail order company Danscomp.
>recommendations in terms of brands
Unless you have a time machine, it's better to do your homework on the individual items you find listed for sale. Remember that most brands made/make products to hit a range of price points.
Some specifics: beware old fashioned weight-weenie parts (Hi-E), they have a reputation for failure. Also, remember that when you read glowing reviews of old parts (like Maxicar) remember that their greatness was relative to what was available on the mass market at the time, the quality of mass-market loose bearing hubs improved pretty dramatically during the 1980's, and when it comes to cartridge bearing hubs there's practically no difference between brand/era aside from the finish.
>Shimano 600 hubs
They're excellent. Actually any Shimano hub mid-tier or better is excellent aside from early DA freehub models (they use a unique, unserviceable design).
>Suntour XC
Nice hubs, fine for road use, but stick to the freewheel versions since Suntour cassettes are rare/pricey.
>>900347
>Is it difficult to build a wheel?
yes it is, dont waste your time with guess work and trial and error, get this book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Wheelbuilding-Reference-Wheelaholics/dp/0964983532
and then you will start making progress right away instead of spend hours frustrating yourself
>>900415
>Get double-butted spokes, 14/15 gauge is most common and sufficient unless you're building wheels for a rider weighing over 250 pounds.
2.0mm is the diameter of straight spokes. While I agree that butted spokes that narrow to 1.4mm to 1.5mm is as strong as straight spokes because it puts elasticity in the correct part of the spoke, I disagree that it will handle a person up to 250 lbs. I weight 220 lbs and I have a huge problem with broken spokes on my back wheel. DT Swiss Alpine III triple butted is what I need as it is 1.8mm at its narrowest point and is 2.0/2.3mm at the ends
>>900421
Sounds like there is another factor at play there, such as number, lacing, or tension. I've build wheels that held up just fine under a 220# pedal masher with standard 14/15 spokes.
For most people and most uses, 14/15 is just fine.
>>900415
>>900415
Haha yeah there's a lot to consider, especially if I'm going to blow like $500
You don't reckon cup and cone has a longer life than sealed cartridge? I dont mind maintenance and I'm pretty good about doing it.
Sheldon brown recommends triple butted spokes, do you prefer double or is it more about cost?
Yeah I was just trying to stoke conversation in terms of experience with brands and what not. I'm kinda torn between going for something like Sansin that has a good reputation or paying campy tax for the sake of aesthetics, I'm sure they had some really good hubs available as well, need to get more up to speed with model names.
Thanks for all the info dude!
>>900421
You don't know what 14/15 gauge means. It means 2.0-1.8-2.0.
>>900442
Yen shock? I hadn't heard of that. Though I was starting to wonder what happened to Miyata and the like
>>900443
The yen shock was a condition in which the JPY suddenly became mucho expensive relative to the USD. The big one was in 1985, when the yen was reevaluated and went from 250JPY/USD to 160JPY/USD overnight, and there were a couple of smaller ones in the 90s. From there, the yen kept appreciating, driving the price of Japanese exports up, and making them unable to compete on the low-end and midrange.
Another problem was that Japanese wages were steadily going up in the 80s. They've flatlined since the early 90s though.
Shimano managed to get through it because they started producing stuff in Signapore in the 70s. Everyone else had to scramble to move production to Taiwan, and it just couldn't happen in time for most of the Japanese makers to stay in foreign markets, or in some cases stay in business at all.
>>900445
Wow. Imagine what the market would look like today if we had lost Shimano?
>>900447
Maybe Campy would have a bigger presence and their products would be cheaper
>>900448
I imagine there would be a large market presence there isn't now, but I'm sure you're right as well.
Maybe SRAM would just have a huge market share
>>900445
Although currency had a part in it, what killed the popularity of japanese road bikes (called ten-speeds back then) which were very popular in the 70s were the appearance of mountain bikes in the early to mid 80s which were invented and sold by mostly american brands
the Cohens of West Coast Bicycles are the people who marketed japanese bikes in the US during the 70s, see the history section of this wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nishiki_%28bicycle%29
>>900443
Wikipedia research project: The Plaza Accord
>>900439
1. In theory cartridge bearing hubs should last forever, since the bearings don't run on races that are part of the hub itself. But really, when you can get many decades of use out of a hub with loose bearings, it's kind of a moot point unless you're stockpiling hubs so that your great-great-great-grandchildren will be able to ride nice bikes two centuries after the apocalypse.
2. I've never actually used (or seen for sale) triple butted spokes. I suppose it makes sense that they would be even better than double, but outside of detailed lab testing would their advantage over a db spoke be noticeable? Doubtful.
3. Definitely go for bling stuff if you're going to buy old parts, that's kind of the point of buying old unless you're just trying to put together wheels on the cheap, and fancy upmarket hubs usually have aluminum with less impurities (which means they take a brighter polish when you shine them up).
>>900421
>mfw I ride on 14ga straight spokes @ 290 lbs. on cratered Rust Belt streets without breakage
>>900491
yeah, ok
>>900404
they look really cool, I bet there is a good reason for never seeing them in use though.
>>900491
>290 lbs
Literally throw yourself off a bridge.
Maybe you'll finally lose some weight as you rot.
Much love,
anon ;^)
>>900476
1. So long as the cartridges are replaceable, you mean right?
2. b-but sheldon brown
3. Well I'm putting together old because I need freewheel compatible equipment that's high end. My bikes are old and aluminum (pic relado) so I can't cold set them and I need the proper spacing. Plus I wanna keep it period (to an extent)
>>900491
Probably more prone to going out of true though, and if you ever hit a pothole you're going to be fucked.
>>900537
>aluminum fork for unbeatable comfort
kek
>>900404
They're junk. Pretty much they only things they have going for them are looks and you don't need anything to line the rim when running tubeless as there's no spoke holes.
>>900553
>you don't need anything to line the rim when running tubeless
…and plenty of conventionally spoked rims have this advantage too.
>>900537
Probably best to just eBay a used Shimano freehub; look for RX100/A550, 105SC/1055, 600 Ultegra/6400, or Dura-Ace/7400. Otherwise, you could buy a new 126mm Velo-Orange hub and a 7-speed freewheel.
>>900603
I'd prefer not. 6 speed cassettes are much more difficult to find.
>>900650
Que? 7-speed HG cassettes will fit onto a 126mm freehub and aren't rare. Why limit yourself to 6 speeds?
>>900676
Well there's also the issue of the aesthetic of the hubs, era, which isn't as important, but honestly my two bikes are 6 and 8 speed, and I find all my preferred ratios are covered with 6 speed. Not to mention there are also 7 speed freewheels available.
Is it possible to get box section rims with the same strength as modern 'low profile' shit i.e. Open Pros? I love the look of low box section stuff but it just doesn't seem that strong.
>>900774
Why do you think designs moved to modern low profile shit?
>>900774
Yes, there are strong (read: double wall) square-profile rims: the Pacenti PL21, and the VO PBP,
>>900791
One of my bikes has wheels built with H+Son TB14 rims, and even though I'm a big cunt they've held up well.
>>900791
They're also heavier, less stiff, and require more spokes for the equivalent wheel strength. A wheel with the same spoke count will be lighter, stiffer and stronger is a modern profile.
>>900809
>A wheel with the same spoke count will be lighter, stiffer and stronger is a modern profile
is a modern profile V shaped rims?
can you recommend cheap aluminum rims that are 'modern profile'?
>>900816
Yeah, messed up typing that. Kinlins are pretty affordable and reliable. Some people don't like that they're not welded, and supposedly the braking surface can be a little soft in comparison to others. They're light and cheap though, and actually found on a lot of factory wheelsets with 27mm or 30mm deep rims.
>>900816
IMO if you are buying new rims, it's worth paying out for open pros.
>>900841
Mavic doesn't even make good shit anymore.
>>900447
Suntour still producing components
Campy has an entry level group akin to Shimano Claris
Sunrace has professional tier groupset
People think about Shimano the same way they treat Suntour today.
>>900852
>Campy has an entry level group akin to Shimano Claris
whats that called? I thought they ended production on their cheap stuff
>>900852
>Suntour still producing components
No, the Suntour name was bought and a company using their name makes forks. SunXCD hasn't produced anything of note and some of their stuff is just rebranded stuff.
>Campy has an entry level group akin to Shimano Claris
No they don't. Veloce is at least 4600 Tiagra level, and above Sora, if only for the cables under the tape and 10 speeds.
>Sunrace has professional tier groupset
No they don't. That's Microshift.
>People think about Shimano the same way they treat Suntour today.
No, Suntour was never that dominant. It was Shimano that killed and crippled Campy, first with indexed shifting, then again with STIs. Suntour's slant parallelogram, while the basis of indexing technology, never made that kind of dent on Campagnolo.
>>900857
He was imagining what the market would look like today in opposite world where Shimano ate shit in the early 90s.
>>900853
I was just throwing out a hypothetical about what the bicycle component scene would be like w/o Shimano.
But to answer your question: a long time ago there was Campy Valentino. It was pretty lousy for its time and not considered very valuable today. My sister had a bike with Valentino derailleurs and they would have been better as paperweights.
For more modern Campy, there was Avanti, Athena, and Mirage. They introduced and discontinued these groups during the 90's. Since then, they have really only focused on producing very high-end groupsets, and have left the low-end market almost entirely.
>>900861
There was, until a few years back, Xenon, which Campy got rid of because its value for the money was much too good.
OP here, I was just shooting the shit with the folks down at the community bike shop about wheel building and the gear I was looking into, and they whipped out these rims!
I just got these 26" Araya Team-395 mountain bike rims NOS for fuckin $30
WIEUEIEUE
Only thing is they're 28h. They're double walled, so I'm hoping with some high gauge spokes they'll stand up to the trails. What do you guys think?
>>900864
I have a Xenon dual pivot caliper and it's actually fantastic. Just as good as my 600 Ultegra 1st generation dual pivots.
>>900883
How much do you weigh?
>>900919
Only about 160lbs, will that be ok?
>>900924
Not the same anon, but yes. They should be fine. Especially with proper hub, lacing, and spoke selection. Get triple butted spokes; they go 2.3-1.8-2.0mm, going from the hub to the rim. These spokes should last the longest in heavy-duty applications. 3x lacing is standard in most wheels for a reason, this gives the best strength.
>>900987
Thanks dude! Yeah I was thinking I would do triple butted, but should I bother with a higher gauge as well?
Pretty sweet score right?
>>901000
>but should I bother with a higher gauge as well?
[Im not who youre quoting]
I believe 2.3-1.8-2.0mm is about the highest gauge you can get for triple butted
>>900987
do you have to buy special hubs to have spoke holes large enough to handle 2.3mm? If so, what are some good affordable ones you would recommend?
>>901019
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the hub holes are oversized to make room for the threading on the end of the spokes. 2.3 should fit, with tighter tolerances to reduce flex at the elbows as much as possible. Any standard hub hole for 14 gauge spokes should work, but make sure to measure first with calipers if you can.
just rebuilt my sansin hubs, they're pretty fantastic
building a touring wheelset
The plan is 26" sunringle rhinolite xls
phil wood touring shimano hub
son delux wide body
the crazy thing is that I want to do 4 cross for swag factor.
I understand this will make the wheel stiffer laterally, heavier, and stronger, all other things equal.
Is it at all reasonable to go with the 40 hole phil wood hub, and the 36 hole son delux hub, then 1.8/1.7/2.0 spokes?
>>901511
oh shit, some of that informations wrong, the rhino lites don't come in 40 hole.
but besides that, am I totally fucking high to want to go with 4 cross on a touring rig?
>>901511
Why 26" for touring? Lots of off road segments?
Also what do you mean "Phil Wood Shimano"
Can I use road hubs to build mountain bike wheels or are they too flimsy?
>>901512
You're not crazy, but 3x would likely be sufficient.
>>901515
The spacing is for 8 speed
Can I build rim brake wheels with a disc hub or will the spacing be all fucked up?
>>901521
you'll be fine
>>900404
Fucking stupid that's what.
>>900342
>I was thinking about sinking a wad of cash into some nice NOS 80's gear.
Er.... How about a modern bike? seriously, why do people go ape shit over shitty old 70s and 80s bikes? We've progressed WELL beyond 7-8 speed gears and newer bikes just work better. Even low end newer bikes work better than bikes from those decades.
>>901554
>why do people go ape shit over old bikes?
aesthetics, simplicity, plus they're still really fun to ride
>>901554
So he should spend thousands on decent new gear instead of hundreds on fantastic old gear?
How stupid are you?
>>901569
>nos
>cheap
>fantastic
>same as current entry level
>>901586
Explain how hubs & rims are any more advanced now than they were then other than number of speeds, which is completely frivolous anyways. He obviously already has a bike that won't accept new wheels, why should he throw the frame away and start from scratch?
>>901587
Modern hubs have cartridge bearings which are far superior to C&C hubs, modern freehubs are better designed and easier to service service. Modern hubs are lighter, stronger and can accept a cassette. More speeds are superior for efficiency because they allow better cadence control which is important on a road bike.
Modern rims are lighter, stronger and more aero.
An old steel frame can be stretched to fit a modern hub. NOS parts wind up costing more than new parts after the hipster tax and that's only going to get worse. Put the money towards new parts.
>>901587
>the number of speeds is frivolous
I'm tired of dutchfags spreading their cancer around here
>>901594
My frames are aluminum. C&C is better than cartridge if it's serviced regularly and adjusted properly.
>>901594
Plus, in terms of cadence control indexing is inconvenient because you can't shift multiple gears at once. I doubt you'd get anything lighter or stronger for less new.
>>901587
The simple answer is that its going to be harder to find parts for old 80s bikes as they use different rear hub width. Also there are bike makers that make steel brazed/lugged road bikes that are as good or better than the older bikes. Having said that I dont want to dissuade anyone from getting an 80s NOS bike simply because these are collectors items. It would be like sending a pristine/never driven 69 Chevy Camaro to an auto wrecking yard if these bikes were never to be sold.
>>901569
Shimano claris is cheaper than used dura ace 7400.
>>901797
Not all vintage gear carries the overvalued "DA" name though.
>>900499
Wow, when did SG go downhill so badly?
>>901849
Thinking that might possibly not be genuine SG, despite the logo.
>pixels...
Are db spokes reaĺy woryh it i
Over straight gauge stainless spokes?
>>900499
Nigga I said 290, not 390
