Is this right?
Images are sometimes not shown due to bandwidth/network limitations. Refreshing the page usually helps.
You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music
You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music
Is this right?
It's just prog rock. That second LP is straight up Magma rip off music with out the shlock.
>>66314248
kys
>>66314222
yes, nice trips
Aesthethica is Post Metal meets Minimalism; The Ark Work is Post Metal meets Electronica
Mr Bungle is the most Avant Garde of all of them
>>66314327
LMFAOOOOO
>>66314222
High quality b8
>>66314349
is that what you do when you see something you disagree with? automatically write it off as b8? does this help you sleep better at night?
everything on that chart sucks
Liturgy is garbage it sounds like it was recorded by a middle schooler using fruity loops
>>66314392
>>66314390
>>66314383
>>66314349
>>66314336
>>66314327
>>66314264
>>66314248
>>66314222
CHIPOTLE
>>66314327
Is avant garde just another word of eggspork?
>>66314383
Enjoy your midi trumpets with retarded vocals
>>66314431
enjoy your generic growls over generic drum beats over generic guitar playing you doritos eating neckbeard
go listen to moonsorrow and vektroid lite-metal for hot topic shoppers. you've yet to realize that liturgy is an art exhibit, these "midi horns and retarded vocals" are intentional and you obviously missed the entire point of liturgy and their music
>>66314222
It's actually correct.
Nothing on the right side qualifies as avant-garde strictly speaking. These bands don't have a manifesto, they don't have a program, they don't purposefully try to overcome the current state of their scene, they don't claim to be historically relevant, they don't base themselves on a clear theory of art and culture, they don't have a very distinct philosophical background and they don't aim to create a new movement all by themselves or to alter society as a whole.
Liturgy does all that.
And it fucking sucks.
Avant-gardes are often very stupid and produce a lot of shit.
So, OP is entirely right, none of the band on the right should be called "avant-garde", whereas Liturgy has every right to be called "avant-garde".
However this has no bearing on the actual quality of each album, and the fact that you automatically interpret avant-garde as a compliment means that your worldview is all fucked up.
Obviously Liturgy is avant-garde.
But that doesn't mean that it's any good.
>>66314550
>and the fact that you automatically interpret avant-garde as a compliment
[citation needed]
>>66314483
>generic
god forbid musicians actually try to create art within the framework of a given genre instead of mashing things that do NOT go together, resulting in an extremely underwhelming "art exhibit".
>these "midi horns and retarded vocals" are intentional and you obviously missed the entire point of liturgy and their music
You did.
Liturgy was never supposed to sound stupid or ridiculous, it was always hyped by HHH as a grandiose, beautiful and magnificent thing that elevates all sorts of contemporary musical movements. But it's goofy as fuck, in spite of his best efforts.
>>66314597
you really missed the boat on liturgy anon, they are all descendants of arthur honegger. they are not just a bunch of hipster teens that are trying their hand at black metal, they're more intelligent than everyone else that has ever tried to make black metal music
>god forbid musicians actually try to create art within the framework of a given genre
nothing wrong with this but if you start sounding too much like your predecessors (95% of modern metal) then you are not worthy of anyones time except for teenagers who are not familiar with the people you're ripping off
>>66314597
>>66314677
>nothing wrong with this but if you start sounding too much like your predecessors (95% of modern metal) then you are not worthy of anyones time except for teenagers who are not familiar with the people you're ripping off
That's 100% wrong.
If I love Anthrax, why shouldn't I also like a band that rips them off? Why wouldn't they be worthy of my time if they sound the same?
Doing a good imitation is just as laudable as having novelty appeal.
liturgy saved trap and metal
>>66314775
>Why wouldn't they be worthy of my time if they sound the same?
>Doing a good imitation is just as laudable as having novelty appeal.
1000% wrong
>>66314677
>they are not just a bunch of hipster teens that are trying their hand at black metal, they're more intelligent than everyone else that has ever tried to make black metal music
You're partially right: HHH isn't your average hipster, if he were, then he would at least have enough self-deprecativeness and humor to not take his project so deadly seriously. He's intelligent in the most basic an neutral sense of the term: he knows a lot of things and can organize them in complex ways.
But he has zero common sense and very little insight into the musical cultures he's dealing with.
The other dudes however are just in it because they like playing music that has complicated rhythms.
>>66314800
>different=good
>newer=better
absolutely wrong
>>66314886
>>different=good
>>newer=better
i didnt make these implications. i'm merely stating that if something is new in the sense that it is original then it is "better" than something that is generic but just as "good"
originality, when done well, trumps copy cats. and if you disagree then you are wrong
>there are people who unironically like Liturdgy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HTajp3sGww
>>66314222
nobody calls any of those albums on the left avant-garde
>>66314775
>If I love Anthrax, why shouldn't I also like a band that rips them off? Why wouldn't they be worthy of my time if they sound the same?
>Doing a good imitation is just as laudable as having novelty appeal.
holy crap that is a terrible way of thinking about art. if everyone had that same mindset, then we would still be painting antelopes on caves. progression is one of the most important aspects of art. as for enjoying a rip-off as much as the original, how can you think that way? historical context should be something that you factor into account. anthrax was making somewhat groundbreaking music in the 80's but someone ripping them off today have no artistic merit whatsoever
>>66315305
yes they do
>>66315292
this is a goat cover
Reminder that Liturgy is just playing mediocre entry level black metal over generic entry level electronic music
>>66316889
>mediocre entry level black metal
>generic entry lever electronic music
go to bed, HBM
>>66315292
honestly better than the original
>>66316922
They are though
If you think they are interesting you just fell for the meme
>>66316993
why are plebs like you contributing to avant garde threads?
stay the fuck away cuck
>>66316993
>>66316889
the melodic and harmonic devices that liturgy use are far from those of traditional black metal. half of their progressions are in a major key. the use of extreme motivic repetition is very unique, and the drumming is on a whole new level.
you're very wrong
>>66317038
>pleb
>cuck
Nice buzzwords, opinion discarded
>>66317091
>in major key
Done in the past
>repetition
Done in the past
>drumming
Ive heard so much better in metal alone
>>66316993
on taw they employ some advance sound manipulation techniques
>>66317091
music theory is jew shit, liturgy straight up DO NOT SLAY
>>66317171
>Ive heard so much better in metal alone
no you don't
>Popular music
>avant garde
pick one
>>66317199
Can you prove it though
avant-garde is more of an historical category than a stylistic one
Liturgy is certainly part of the avant-garde of popular music because it is a frontrunner in the trend of dumb midcult hipsters trying to flesh out the "deep, artistic" elements of a music style that has always been purposely stupid and lowbrow
>>66317179
So advanced that it is considered trap influenced ?
>>66316403
>historical context should be something that you factor into account.
Only insofar as it carries novelty appeal for YOU.
Anthrax are NOT good because they were groundbreaking at some point in history, they're good because they have RIFFS, and that shit transcends history.
And let's not forget that "art" is a category that's only relevant to historians. As a human being (or as an artist) you should approach all entertainment as just what it is regardless of its historical context.
>>66314483
enjoy being trapped in a cultural void with music that's too stupid (formally and conceptually) for people who know what they're talking about, and too pretentious for people who enjoy metal for the reason it was created in the first place
>>66317171
>>in major key
>Done in the past
yeah but certainly not in most "entry level" black metal
>>repetition
>Done in the past
i'm talking about motivic repetition and motivic development, where they take a small musical phrase or motif and repeat it over and over while sometimes mutating it slightly and gradually over extended periods of time. this is definitely not something that is done in black metal. hhh pretty much said he took the idea from shellac. listen to these songs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGbvCZFrTks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN4BncLvXic
listen to 3:27 in this song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1jkUJ4IMUM
and the first 40 seconds of this song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t65Li7hLDpI
now listen to 2:07 and onwards in this song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqypczTds80
or pretty much any part of any other song on that album. you'll hear what i'm talking about. it's a very unique technique to incorporate into "black metal"
>Ive heard so much better in metal alone
whatever, you can't deny that it's extremely virtuosic drumming
all you're saying now is that this stuff has been done before, but you're totally backpedaling on your original argument that it's "just entry-level black metal"
>>66314886
>He's intelligent in the most basic an neutral sense of the term: he knows a lot of things and can organize them in complex ways.
everything I've ever read from him has been an incoherent mishmash of jargon that he seems to use without having any idea what it means. He writes like a pretentious autist with Dunning-Kruger syndrome, not like an intellectual
>>66315104
the value of originality in art is a myth based on the equally mythical notion that artworks are autonomous beings.
You can subscribe to it but you have no right to call me "wrong" because I don't.
>>66317399
>"art" is a category that's only relevant to historians. As a human being (or as an artist) you should approach all entertainment as just what it is regardless of its historical context.
>entertainment
sorry i actually appreciate art and you only listen to music for shallow entertainment purposes. you sound like one of the kids who listens to brostep for the sick drop
>>66317533
I think his writings are very coherent.
But it's very clear that he doesn't understand all the terms he uses.
>>66317549
sorry i actually appreciate art
*listens to Liturgy*
>>66317549
You're a historian. You admire artworks for their theoretical significance within your field of study.
Which is not the same thing as enjoying artworks, which I do.
>>66317549
Listening to brostep for its historical significance (and I'm not saying that it doesn't have any) is even more ridiculous than listening to it for the sick bass drops.
>>66317637
but context is an enormous part of enjoying artworks if you're thinking of them from even a slightly critical perspective. you can't seriously tell me that you don't appreciate intricate classical sculptures like David, because today the same thing could be printed out using a 3d printer. that's just being ignorant
>>66317421
enjoy not getting liturgy for the rest of your life plen
>>66317730
i wasn't saying that i listened to it for either reason. brostep sucks for obvious reasons
>>66317545
>the value of originality in art is a myth
im willing to pay money to see you defend this
>>66317737
Again, you're merging two separate activities under the vague term "appreciate".
I can enjoy a 3D-printed David as much as the real thing, but I certainly admire the original one a lot more.
>>66317744
I'm more than fully equipped to appreciate Liturgy's music since I'm older than 16 and have read a book
I would rather spend time listening to something that is actually mentally stimulating or more immediately satisfying
>>66314222
absolute garbage opinions mate
>>66317825
prove it by explaining what the point of the ark work is
>>66317187
>>66317399
>liturgy straight up DO NOT SLAY
>they're good because they have RIFFS
there's no point in arguing with boneheaded metalfags
>>66317854
if you want to have an "interpretation contest" then congratulations, you win. I would feel pretty embarrassed trying to paraphrase the fatuous bullshit he writes in his albums' bandcamp descriptions
feel free to post your own explanation, because it would probably give me a good laugh
>>66317822
so you're saying you admire originality more, but you can enjoy rip-offs the same as the original. that basically just boils down to you prioritizing your own personal "enjoyment" of art, over appreciating art from a critical standpoint.
if that's the case, then you have no right to be critiquing music. i understand that you don't personally like liturgy, but you're in no place to deny its artistic merit
>>66317854
The Ark Work has several "points" but one of them that's easy to identify is that it's supposed to be "total" and to prolong Wagner's project (explained in The Art Work of the Future) which itself is heavily based on Goethe's notion of art works as self-contained organic autonomous entities that only obey to their own intrinsic formation principle, as if they were living beings. Wagner merges that idea with pseudo-buddhist and nationalist ideals according to which a total work of art is supposed to express and cement the will of a people and keep it healthy and pure.
More or less.
I'm sure that HHH knows about all of this background, since he states that his project is meant to have a messianic impact on culture and life as a whole, and to cure the extreme metal listeners of their fascination for death.
but here's a big fucking problem: his music is the very opposite of an organic, coherent whole. It's an awkward amalgamation of very different musical currents that obeys not to an inherent life force, but to the theoretical goals set beforehand by HHH. He admitted that he spent several months tweaking and adjusting each track of The Ark Work to reflect his ideals and that a lot of his inspiration came in the form of "what if I put that in there?" which makes his music contrived as fuck.
I guess you could say that it expresses the spirit of the hipster people, but since it's a spirit of inauthenticity and intellectual posturing, there's no health and vigor to find in it.
>>66318074
He's certainly technically proficient, ambitious and does new things. But since these ambitions are all twisted and fail to result in anything enjoyable (let's not forget that he tries to make inspiring and beautiful music) then I can at least say that his artistic merit is limited by the goofiness of his music.
>>66317481
Damn I never picked up on that Shellac influence. I guess that explains why he chose to cover that song.
liturgy is great
>>66318121
>his music is the very opposite of an organic
how so?
Threads like this are why everyone hates /mu/
>>66320285
posts like this is why /mu/ hates you
>>66320285
not sure what you mean by that
>>66320285
agree, plus Aesthetica is overrated
>>66320491
>overrated
it is not a highly regarded album anyway anon
>>66320755
Fair enough
>>66320491
fucking retard
>>66320832
Quality discussion
>>66320865
why would i care about the quality of discussion with people who don't understand the meaning of the words they use
>>66314327
You have no idea what post-metal is
>>66318121
>tfw HHH actually knows what he's doing but you can't make heads or tails of it
>>66321078
prove him wrong
>>66314222
Liturgy is just straight garbage, and the only avant garde stuff on the other side is Gorguts, Mr. Bungle, Ved Buens Ende, and mauldin of the well. The rest is just prog and Sunbather is post-metal
>>66321688
when you turn 18 you will realize how wrong you are
>>66314222
In what way are Obscura,Written in Watters, and Bath pseudo avant-garde metal? Like I know it's bait and all but I'm sure there's actually someone dumb enough to think like that
Reminder that Liturgy are fucking shite
>>66321005
Quality discussion
>>66314222
Yes.
>>66314222
don't think I've ever seen anyone class Blackwater Park, Sunbather, or Terminal Redux as "Avant-Garde Metal"
>>66320247
read the rest of the fucking sentence
Tremolo picked post rock with trap influenced beets vs. Fucking gorguts and mr bungle
I bet you dont like cynic or death either
Nothing about any of those artists is avant-garde.
Ved Buens Ende and Mr. Bungle are the closest things to avant-garde in that image, everything else is shitty prog-metal or shitty post-metal
>>66326917
being post-something is a concept that's only understandable within the context of historical avant-gardism.
>>66326832
wrong
>>66314550
>>66314550
Well said.
>>66326959
Perhaps their intention is to be avant-garde. Trouble is that nothing in their music actually breaks new ground.
>>66326997
No particular element does, but their combination in this specific manner is definitely something new.
everyone ITT is fucking braindead
>>66328268
rude
>>66314550
come on, man, have you even listened obscura? for fuck's sake
>>66314222
>>66314483
Hi Hunter. Great moves. Keep it up!
all the people who take the shit HHH writes seriously are going to feel embarrassed in 10 years when they look back at their past selves
the music itself is often cool, but how naive do you have to be to fall for the meaningless half-ideas that inspire the music. Everything that came out of that "Hideous Gnosis" disaster reads like the high school essay of a teen whose taste just graduated from KoRn to Dimmu Borgir and thinks he found the ultimate art form.
>>66314222
Using actual aspects of serialism>>>using shit attempts of minimalism
Using actual horns for jazz sections that sound good even by jazz standards>>>shitty midi horns
Creating riffs through a combination of notes that make the music feel otherworldly>>>>repeating stale riffs over and over again
Vocals that range from sounding like they are in pain to monstrous to w/e the fuck Antii does>>>>weak ass screams
The records on the right minus Sunbather and BWP actually make new interesting stuff. Liturgy's just regurgitating different ideas and sloppily putting them together. Cohesion's mad important when various different aspects of music come together, and Liturgy has none of it while having a weak core foundation on the metal parts themselves.
>>66314222
oh god i hope this is fucking bait
>sunbather and bath in the same category
literally kys
>>66328571
which of those albums uses serialism?
>>66328571
>Creating riffs through a combination of notes that make the music feel otherworldly
i agree that liturgy's music is generally a series of contrived experiments that range from sometimes compelling to utter failure, but this statement is completely arbitrary lol
i could argue that liturgy's ample use of major 7ths and unusual higher-octave voicings create an effect just as disorienting and "otherworldly" as demilich's chromatic riffing
people consider demilich "otherworldly" because of their aesthetic inclination towards tropes typical of the horror art and popular genre-fiction of the 20th century. there is nothing innately otherworldly about their music unless you consider finnish people a different species. in which case i can totally agree there
what makes nespithe so captivating as a record even to newer audiences is the sense of cohesion, like you said
same thing with ved buens ende or whatever else you might be referring to with this post... gorguts are kinda indebted to bartok's folk tinged modernism and everything else there kinda sucks major doo doo
>>66328773
Cohesion is probably the most important thing I mentioned in my post. Other metal bands outside of Demilich do serialism, too, but they often don't achieve much by doing so. Demilich uses either chromaticism or serialism and combines it with odd tempos, metal's inclination towards the dark stuff, the production and Antii Boman's unique vocals (there's really nothing that sounds like him) to get the feel that they have. It all works well together.
Liturgy, despite having a very Glenn Branca style approach to music, has nowhere near as many sounds as a typical Branca work nor is as rewarding a listen as anything Branca has done.
