Music theory
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You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music
You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music
Do you think learning music theory is beneficial, or does it honestly just limit creativity? pic-unrelated
>>66074865
It depends on the individual. I have friends who studied music in college and it seems many of them now enjoy musical concepts more than the music itself. They listen to music differently, and while composing they can't just jam and see what happens, they are stuck on theory. I think having an understanding of it can open a lot of doors creatively, as long as you don't lose touch of actually feeling music.
>>66074865
Sometimes you must learn the rules to break them, though reaching a creative peak takes trial and error. While starting you're gonna have a harder time learning the basics and skipping said basics may lead to some bad habits. Remaining naive will allow you to think more free-er thus putting no limits on your creativity giving you a higher risk/reward.
This is your choice.
>βIt took me four years to paint like Raphael, but a lifetime to paint like a child.β
β Pablo Picasso
you can get a working knowledge pretty easily. shit is not that complicated.
As far as creating music, unless you're some retarded savant, theory is absolutely beneficial. You can pluck every note on a string with a backing track until you find out what works, but unless you know WHY it works, it's just trail & error and a complete waste of your time, taking away time that could have been spent actually creating and not fumbling through notes. Once you know at least the very basic bits of theory, then you can experiment with breaking the rules. That's what jazz/blues/etc is all about. Lots of songs in those genres don't follow the "rules", but it works because they know the rules and how/when to break them. Just keep in mind when learning that they're not so much "rules" but general guidelines and don't wall yourself into abiding by them and your creativity will only flow easier.
>>66074865
depends on whether the teacher is a prick.
>>66074865
How having more tools can possibly limit you?
are there even any talented or at least commercially successful musicians you can easily name?
>>66076521
because it also begets a certain way of thinking, the way its taught nowadays
in-the-box thinking becomes routine
still, best to learn theory and then deprogram your mind from the academic way of approaching music
Knowing the basis of harmony allows you to explore it further and with more precision. I'm not sure why 'popular' musicians decide to be wilfully ignorant of principles they've probably already copied.
Music theory is useful for knowing what "works" and what "doesn't", and I use quotes because theory gives you guidelines as opposed to hard rules. I've been playing bass guitar for 10 years, and I still can't read music. Nevertheless, I made sure i got the basics of music theory in the beginning (notes, chords, solfeges, scales). Setting aside theory, most of what I've learned about music has been inference from theory basics, trial and error, and listening to a lot of music.
You don't need it, but it can give you an edge in some areas like improvisation*, and it helps when you want to share ideas with others.
*even improvisation doesn't NEED theory, I know some guys for whom it's all feel.
Posts ITT that are spot on:
>>66074928
>Sometimes you must learn the rules to break them
>>66075067
>>66076521
>>66075067
There are only 12 notes, I only need very few seconds to try out everything and see what sounds the best, even if i usually pick the right note at the first or second try. I think the total amountof time i would need to learn theory is bigger than the total amount of time that i used and will use to figure out things by ear
hendrix didnt know theory
>>66074865
On a slightly related topic - is it hindering for a prospective musician to take a music degree?
I'm friends with quite a few music students, they're very proficient, but somewhat lacking in originality. Seen some of their performances, and even their 'experimental' music is pretty unremarkable. There's so many students at the college trying to be edgy and different, but drinking from the same trough so they all sound a dime a dozen.
Pic related as well - do people really expect to make a living out of music nowadays? Your best bet is to spend your entire life devoted to a wind, brass or string instrument and join an orchestra - there's a billion singer songwriters already, we don't need any more.
>>66076965
>stifled by society
oh no, you can't make your strange alternative rock music and earn a living by doing local 'gigs' where you income solely subsists on old white people giving you money because they feel bad for you
idiot hipsters
>>66076965
>making a career out of music
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ives
>He is one of the first American composers of international renown,[2] though his music was largely ignored during his life, and many of his works went unperformed for many years. Over time, he came to be regarded as an "American original".[3][4][5] He combined the American popular and church-music traditions of his youth with European art music, and was among the first composers to engage in a systematic program of experimental music, with musical techniques including polytonality, polyrhythm, tone clusters, aleatoric elements, and quarter tones,[6] foreshadowing many musical innovations of the 20th century.
>In 1899, Ives moved to employment with the insurance agency Charles H. Raymond & Co., where he stayed until 1906. In 1907, upon the failure of Raymond & Co., he and his friend Julian Myrick formed their own insurance agency Ives & Co., which later became Ives & Myrick, where he remained until he retired.[14] During his career as an insurance executive and actuary, Ives devised creative ways to structure life-insurance packages for people of means, which laid the foundation of the modern practice of estate planning.[15] His Life Insurance with Relation to Inheritance Tax, published in 1918, was well received. As a result of this he achieved considerable fame in the insurance industry of his time, with many of his business peers surprised to learn that he was also a composer.
tl;dr: Keep music as a hobby and git gud. If you're lucky someone might care, but get a degree (e.g. double major with music, major in music and minor in something practical, or major in something practical and minor in music) that can land you a job, you filthy hippy
>>66074865
Kind of like asking if learning a language would limit your ability to express yourself.
I never quite understood why people believe knowing more about music theory would limit their ability to make music.
Considering you're not obligated to follow the "rules" of music theory once knowing it, the worst case scenario is that you have a better understanding of what you're creating and why it sounds the way it sounds be it directly pulled from concepts of theory or deliberately going against them.
>>66074865
def helps if youre trying to write something. you dont have to fiddle around or try to think up something. you already know where something can go and you can just edit or change around those parts how you want.
it can fuck you up though because you get bored quickly like "ya 2+2=4. i know ive seen it a million times. i want to make something new and interesting though".
most people dont care though. most popular songs or those big festival edm songs are all the same fucking shit. just with shiny new sample edits and effects here and there.
Theory is just a way to explain what musicians were already doing before theory. If you feel like your music is too basic, learn some theory. It's actually equally helpful to just learn a lot of complicated songs though.
>>66075067
this is the correct answer
how many of these albums were composed by somebody trained in music theory?
>>66078079
probly like 4 of them.
>>66078079
>>66078094
and only like 4 of them are actually good
>>66076965
1) Society shouldn't pay for you for expressing yourself. Unless you're a genius and create culturally-transcendental music (and even that's debatable), you don't deserve to live off welfare just because "muh feels"
2) That being said, if you can live off of another probably shitty job while you put your music degree to use by yourself or with a band, orchestra, whatever, then there's no problem.
Also, getting a job as a composer for movies, videogames or shows is a real possibility if you don't mind bastardizing your craft.
talented anon here. Music theory is nice for people who don't have the gift
truth is, you can't learn the gift. I know tons of people who 'studied music theory', but at the end of the day they can't play anything they hear instantly like yours truly
>>66078107
10 of them are good.
>>66078079
nmh, anco, radiohead, slint, mbv, burial, talking heads, king crimson, gybe, kanye, grips and i haven't heard the last one but i assume it is too
>>66078218
that doesn't mean learning theory will be detrimental for you..
>>66076923
>not true by the way
>>66078318
i know basic music theory I was kinda half trolling with that post
the stuff I could learn about music theory is just vocabulary
>>66078184
In what way does composing for games or movies bastardize the craft of making music?
>>66078218
Take note, kids, this is what a compulsive liar looks like
>>66074865
It shouldn't limit creativity if you don't force yourself to follow the guidelines and empirical knowledge of music theory
I'm pretty sure if you're interested in creating it does more good than harm having that knowledge
>>66078599
Video game composers are seen as little more than novelty
No matter how good 0edit, Darren Korb or Koji Kondo are, they'll never be held in a higher esteem than popular musicians
>>66078616
i was obviously joking about "the gift", but I'm not lying. Basically any real musician can play what they hear. It's not super rare. Guarantee there is a guy working at your local guitar center who can play by ear
>>66078079
Fripp definitely knows his theory. Source: http://www.elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_Robert_Fripp_in_Guitar_Player_(1974). It's a blasphemy to ''compare'' King Crimson to Death Grips and Kanye. It's just not right.
>>66079181
he's also severely autistic
>>66078780
That's nice. Would you like to take a stab at answering the question now?
>>66079246
(You)
>>66074865
To writing music? of course. That's like asking if learning grammar is beneficial to writing.
To listening to music, it doesn't really matter.
>>66078079
Every one except American Football
>>66078079
none. Which is exactly why they're awful.
>>66074865
Knowledge and creativity are separate.
Knowledge gives your natural creativity more options to express itself.
>>66076923
And he's a mediocre songwriter because of it. Literally all his solos are in 1 scale, minor pentatonic.
>>66079335
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you - Pure Unadulterated Autism: The Post
>>66079371
Why exactly do you think I'm autistic? Because I'm not a popular music pleb?
>>66074928
i love u
>>66079397
Yes
>>66079482
ah so you mixed up "autistic" with "enlightened"
got it. Come back when you wean yourself off popular music
>>66079335
in Hendrix' defense, if you're playing 'the blues' like he did that's the scale you use
and he was a very colorful and creative blues guitarist who stepped outside of that box pretty frequently
Hendrix didn't play prog rock but what he did, in my opinion, is way cooler than what John Petrucci does
>>66079508
Care to share some of your favorite bands and musicians? You seem to have a refined taste in music.
>>66079371
>I'm just going to call him autistic because I can't refute his claims
You are everything wrong with 4chan
>>66079600
>I'm autistic
>You are everything wrong with 4chan
Autism
>You are everything wrong with 4chan
kek
>>66079335
How and why exactly is King Crimson awful in your opinion?
>>66079641
Because it's gay
>>66079659
Damn
>>66079641
I'm not that guy, but King Crimson has a lot of awful music. Can't really put it into words, but the best I can do is say it's so cerebral and heartless
I like a lot of their shit don't get me wrong, but I can understand why someone would think they are awful
Especially someone who wasn't a music nerd
>>66079659
(You)
>>66079692
Let me guess, you're listening to Top 40, aren't you?
>>66079760
I'm listening to field recordings on your mom's moans when I fucked her in the ass
>>66076883
with that attitude, you'll never do anything with your music beyond "it sounds okay, I guess"
music theory exists because musicians agree that there's a way to streamline that note selection process that you can't move past
basic music theory is like learning multiplication tables. intermediate theory is like learning how to calculate the volume of a sphere. advanced theory takes you to places where you can model real-life events
>>66079760
No. Reread my post I like King Crimson but they have awful shit as well. Like listen to "Beat" and tell me that 90 pct of that isn't garbage. Do it with a polygraph on
Honestly man
and I have nothing against pop music either
>>66079791
(You)
>>66077057
pretty much this. unless you have independent means of support you'll probably never make it big as a musician
>>66079596
Bach (that art of fugue), Palestrina (that missa papae marcelli), Gesualdo (that sacred music), Victoria (that requiem), Morales (that requiem), Fayrfax (that sacred music), Scarlatti (that stabat mater), Haydn (those string quartets), Strauss (those operas - elektra and salome), Mahler (symphony 5 mostly), Janacek (those piano pieces, string quartets and that sinfonietta), Schoenberg (those 5 pieces for orchestra), MartinΕ― (those symphonies), Bartok (those string quartets, and the concerto for orchestra), Schnittke (that concerto for piano and strings), Lera Auerbach (that first symphony, those piano preludes), John Psathas (that omnifenix sax concerto and abhisheka string quartet).
>>66079641
To be honest I haven't given them much of a chance. For me if someone isn't a trained composer they aren't worth my time. I listen exclusively to classical or traditional music. prog and "bands" just dont interest me any more. They did for 10 ish years, but I guess I just grew out of them.
>>66079898
>"bands" just dont interest me any more
Kek the autism here is astounding, I can't tell if you're serious or not. And the entry level classical music is a nice touch
>I grew out of bands
>>66076883
>There are only 12 notes
Microtonality exists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23ImVLezV4c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHI2xyyH-CU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0akGtDPVRxk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3FZkQTn51o
>>66079939
>"bands" just dont interest me any more
Literally how I feel. Is it that hard for you to understand?
Why waste your time listening to music written by untrained plebs for untrained plebs? Oh thats right, because its marketed to you with a pretty cover and its on TV / Radio / Review site you worship so it must be good
>>66079988
Aspergers
>>66078017
I remember when I was in a punk band and I started learning about music theory. I got really upset when I discovered that all of our songs were written in I-IV-V structure and started arguing with the rest of the band that we needed to start writing more innovative stuff.
point being, I was missing out on the simplicity of song structure as a means of directly conveying energy. I should've been in a heavy-metal band.
music theory will give you a larger vocabulary, but it won't give you more things to talk about.
>>66079823
I absolutely despise pop music for that matter, but yes, I do agree that Beat definitely isn't great. Only ''pop'' musicians I consider good are: Phil Collins (it pains me to say this), Michael Jackson, Mariah Carey (only thing I like about her is that voice; lyrics on the other hand...), Amy Winehouse and that's pretty much it.
is it important for an author to understand sentence structure and grammar? not always but its easier to break the rules in a creative way if u understand the rules.
>>66074865
I think it's useful to know at least a basic amount of music theory. But don't let it limit you. I took AP Music Theory in high school. There's some stuff I'm glad I know that helped me become a better musician, but then there are some limiting things about it. Apparently there's such thing as a "wrong" chord for a chord progression (on the test one of the questions required me to replace a chord with a different one to make it correct) and it's like, what if the composer purposely meant to make this part dissonant, or to maybe surprise you by ending a chord progressions on a subdominant chord or something? Maybe that's the feel the composer intended?
So as people already said, it's best to learn theory and then sort of use it as a guideline, rather than a hard set of rules.
>>66079898
>For me if someone isn't a trained composer they aren't worth my time
Considering this, jazz and jazz fusion music would be right in your ball park. You ''can't'' exactly be ''untrained'' to play those genres.
>>66079898
Fuck off poly your taste is shit
>>66080090
Allan Holdsworth for example pretty much ''invented'' his own chords and scales and reinvented the aspect of guitar playing as a whole. His guitar sounds more like a sax and he didn't want to play guitar, but that's what the instrument he started playing when he was young and it helped him say what he had to say.
the only people who find theory limiting are people who dont know enough of it. you can literally justify any musical idea you want with theory.
>>66080090
this guy is a good example, if you had continued to study theory then you would have learned about modal interchange which effectively eliminates the idea of a "wrong chord" but modal intercahnge only became a thing because people were already doing it and theory needed a word for it. This isnt a chicken or the egg argument. Theory is just used to verbally described musical ideas that someone already had. this is why people can find it limiting. if u just stick to theory and never do anything outside of it then you are just borrowing ideas that have already been established and explored, but, this doesnt mean you cant explore the established ideas to your own creative means. basically, creative ideas can happen inside and outside the world of theory. to keep yourself from being limited it is probably best to have either no understanding of theory at all or to know the fuck out of that shit. whether you should know it or not is a choice you need to make with your artistic intent in mind.
>>66080127
Jazz is literally the worst genre. All the musicians are niggers and untrained. It's just "muh kewl sax and piano XD" Only album worth listening to is a love supreme and the black saint. Everything else is hot garbage
>>66080229
fucking rockist faggot ass mother fucker. you are one wrong ass motherfucker and if u ever said that shit around me you'd be a dead ass motherfucker.
-a black guy who knows a hell of a lot more than your biggoted white ass.
think your hot shit? post something of you blowing over autumn leaves, i need something to laugh at since you just gave me cancer.
>>66080229
(You)
>>66080287
Just ignore him. Let's not derail this thread.
>>66080326
your right, thanks.
>>66080127
...and yet unique and consistent enough that you recognize me
>>66080112
I dont mind Jazz, but classical is really where its at for me. Bach fugues and baroque sacred music, renaissance polyphony, 20th century serialism, spectralism, and polystylism. 20th century music really is a wealth of interesting styles and pieces, as long as you keep away from popular music.
>>66080287
AYO HOL UP
What is the best way and guide to learn music theory?And when I learn it will I be able to make melodies in my mind and have no problem to do them in real time.
>>66080341
>as long as you keep away from popular music.
You're close minded and stupid as all fuck.
>>66080341
I respect that, though I would recommend expanding as a listener. Try to find something you like in other genres of music. By the way, there are definitely good new bands, but not so many popular new bands.
>>66080412
>>66080436
I listened to popular music and bands for 10+ years, I think I've had enough.
Being close minded would be ignoring all the amazing music written in the last 500 years, and just listening to "bands" from the last 50 years.
I'm pretty happy with classical, it meets my needs of polyphony and economy of material. If something aint polyphonic and written by a trained composer, it probably isn't going to hold my interest.
Plus I write more than I listen so the times I do listen I prefer to make sure its quality inspirational stuff to give me ideas.
>>66080500
>Being close minded would be ignoring all the amazing music written in the last 500 years
agreed
>as long as you keep away from popular music
wut
>>66080377
Please RESPOND
>>66080570
hes right, there will be more music recorded this week than you can listen to in a lifetime there is no reason to dwell on the most popular recordings
>>66081566
Apart from that, most popular music isn't worth listening to.
>>66081614
Which explains why it's so popular amirite?
>>66074865
I used to think it was really dumb, but honestly it helped so much with finding unique chord progressions and stuff like that. Learning the "tropes" helps you get away from them more, and I feel like that's the whole point of music theory
You can't deviate from conventions if you don't know what the conventions are in the first place.
>>66081655
Yeah, same reason billions of flies eat shit: Because its delicious!
>>66081726
Except that you can?
You don't need a map of a city to leave it
>>66081765
If I dropped you in the center of mexico city, you would never find your way out without directions or knowing spanish
>>66078079
All of them except for Burial.
Burial, however, had the privilege of already being well-versed in creating UK garage, which is an entirely different form of music creation to the rest.
>>66079304
Mate, American Football are really good musicians. You gotta know music theory to play that jazzy math-emo.
>>66075067
Precisely
>>66081839
Literally pick any direction and walk in that direction until you're out of the city.
This is a really simple concept
>>66078079
Litteraly all
>>66079898
>that omnifenix sax concerto
is so good holy shit
>>66076965
>I have a degree and I can't get a job.
Oh no I have a impractical degree that people aren't looking for in an employee waaaaah
I can't believe this bitch fell for the college meme (like me) but at least I didn't fall into the impractical degree and awful life planning meme.
>>66081895
Good luck with that matey.
You'd be begging for directions after the first night sleeping rough, provided you didn't get mugged and stabbed during the night
>>66082029
Best saxophone concerto ever written imo
>>66082243
100% false
I get that you're not mature enough to concede when you're beaten but it's really sad when you have to pretend you're retarded just so you can stick to your guns.
>>66082344
Your faggy analogy argument is irrelevant. He's right, if you're going to make something original and boundary pushing, you need to understand the conventions.
How the fuck it's an unpopular opinion that knowing MUSIC THEORY on a MUSIC board is beyond me. Probably because this board is a bunch of teenage memelords who don't know shit about music.
>>66082243
I'm in the center of Mexico City
I pick north
I head north, using shadows and the time of day as guides
When my way is blocked I get around the obstacle in whatever manner I can and then resume heading north
I do not stop heading north
Eventually I reach the northern city limits
I take a few more steps north
I've made it out of the city
At no point whatsoever did I need a map or directions
>>66082493
It will take you longer than a few hours to get out of mexico city. The shadows will change. You dont have a compass.
Do you guys even know how freaking large mexico city is?
The point is if you dont have music theory you're groping around in the dark and you are probably going to get stabbed before you see the edge of the city
>>66082410
Except that's not actually true at all, sorry
Not sure why you're so mad about it
>>66082547
Yes it is, do you play music?
>>66082538
>The shadows will change
Hence "time of day".
Are you legit retarded or something? Do you really not know how to determine cardinal directions from shadows and time of day from the position and motion of the sun? This is extremely basic shit we're talking about here, like, "cultures who don't have words for numbers past three can figure it out" basic
>>66082586
Nah, it's not. Sorry.
>>66082657
You'll feel pretty retarded after your first day trying to get out of mexico city, I can tell you.
>>66082703
Right, you don't play music so you have no idea what you're talking about. It's not a big deal to be wrong on an anonymou imageboard, just admit it.
>>66082739
Except that I do, which is how I know you're wrong. But hey, whatever you need to pretend to protect your fragile ego
>>66079508
>he unironically just called himself enlightened
>>66082780
So you don't know theory and you are capable of making unique and interesting music? Lets hear it bud.
>>66075067
>>66078059
>>66081889
Music of pure intuition (i.e. music made in a mostly aural, even non-intellectual sense, like a folk musician) is naive, but like trained composers they have a chance of stumbling upon something that sounds original. It might even be easier to stumble across something original when you're not trying to fill in the empty spaces implied by theory, i.e. "knowing how to break the rules". Of course, many trained composers do intuitive/aural things as well, but if they are doing that, aren't they similar to intuitive musicians?
The other nice thing about trained music is that it's nice to have socially constructed standards by which to judge the construction of a piece. Of course, many people simply like the atmospheric effects that all kinds of music can make.
tl;dr music theory does not limit creativity, but it might make originality harder to find or realize (and in that sense is perhaps a more heroic effort)
>>66082493
>I head north, using shadows and the time of day as guides
Its overcast, and extremely smoggy most of the time
Just admit that you're fucked m8 humans dont just "head north" without a compass.
>>66082863
You enjoy jumping to conclusions, I see.
Or is it being wrong that you enjoy? You're doing both quite a lot, so it's hard to tell.
>>66082882
Except that they do, because humans have been managing to do so since long before the invention of a compass?
It's okay to be wrong, anon.
>>66074865
Theory opened my eyes to a lot of stuff and made me more creative. I really don't think I'd study it in school or anything though, that just seems like overkill. When I didn't know virtually any theory, it took me forever to write even the simplest things, and while I thought I was being really creative, it was just basic chord progressions and riffs at heart. Learning theory gave me a bunch of new tools to be creative with.
Without theory I was painting with watercolors on a sheet of printer paper, with theory (even just a little) I have all sorts of paints and all sorts of canvases.
>>66079988
Because the greatness in classical music comes from the untrained part of it. The idea that is separated from everything you have learned. The part of it that makes it original. Untrained composers have learned only by listening, and are just as capable of creating something that sounds original. Reminder that this is inherently the origin of music.
>>66082958
...Because they had stars and the sun anon, on a cloudy day in a strange place there is literally no way of knowing what directing is north.
>>66082968
There's a reason why so few people could do it, it's the exception, not the rule. Someone who doesn't know theory in any sense can't make something interesting because they simply don't know how.
If you're really a creative person, learning something new could never limit you !
>>66082974
>It's cloudy so the sun doesn't exist
This is getting a bit ridiculous, anon. It's time to stop posting
>>66082996
I agree, but even most people in the tradition struggle immensely to create anything that sounds original. I don't think either of us are in a position to assume that either trained musicians or untrained musicians are more likely to be able to create original music.
>>66083012
This
>>66083053
I'm not the guy you were talking to, I just jumped in at your ridiculous assertion that you can see the sun on an overcast day. You know when the sky is blanketed by a low hanging grey mass and you can't see the sun at all.
>>66083114
>If there are clouds in the sky the sun is invisible
wew lad, it's time to stop posting
>>66083158
I'm genuinely curious, do you live somewhere that doesn't get overcast days?
I'm talking about one low hanging grey cloud taking up the entire sky. With this type of weather it is impossible to tell where the sun is because the cloud is too thick.
>>66082996
>>66083085
Maybe since I actually do have training I'm not in a good position to be the advocate for this position, but the way I make music utterly ignores nearly everything I have learned, except in that I took the basic idea of free improvisation and several ideas loosely borrowed or elaborated on from 20th century classical composers and rock musicians. I'm pretty sure that someone with no training could read about musique concrete or Charles Ives or the ideas of any composer really and apply them in a unique way by simply recording something that sounds like it a la musique concrete. They wouldn't need to know counterpoint or voice leading. Arguably this is informal, incomplete, and autodidactic training I suppose, but I see nothing wrong with picking the rules or ideas you wish to learn. Originality comes from the sum of these more theoretical parts but more importantly the unique configuration of sounds and the subjective atmospheres it creates. A unique vocal delivery is honestly enough for a naive music to be superb for me.
If you allow having knowledge of music theory to limit you as a musician then you probably weren't very good in the first place.
>>66083515
True that
