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You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music
Was he the greatest composer born in the 20th century?
https://mega.co.nz/#F!mMYGhBgY!Ee_a6DJvLJRGej-9GBqi0A
https://mega.co.nz/#F!lIh3GRpY!piUs-QdhZACFt2hGtX39Rw
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https://mega.nz/#F!ekBFiCLD!spgz8Ij5G0SRH2JjXpnjLg
https://mega.co.nz/#F!4EVlnJrB!PRjPFC0vB2UT1vrBHAlHlw
https://mega.co.nz/#F!ygImCRjS!1C9L77tCcZGQRF6UVXa-dA
https://mega.co.nz/#F!il5yBShJ!WPT0v8GwCAFdOaTYOLDA1g
https://mega.co.nz/#F!DdJWUBBK!BeGdGaiAqdLy9SBZjCHjCw
http://crudblud.sjm.so/
Bump.
>>61669733
YOU ANON
YOU ARE MY HERO
Thanks senpai
>>61668735
No, probably Ligeti or Messiaen.
>not zappa
>>61670829
>/mu/core level bait
>>61670913
>>/mu/core level bait
>implying Boulez himself didn't know how based Zappa was.
>>61670954
So you mean Boulez probably considered Zappa the greatest composer back then
>xenakis
>>61670767
Shostakovich too
>>61671398
Right, of course.
>>61670954
Boulez hated Zappa's work. He only worked with him for the money (ironically)
>>61668735
Stravberg
>>61671398
Surely
>>61672043
>who?
Glass
Leonard Bernstein
copland, weill, finzi, durufle, shostakovich, messiaen, britten, bernstein, brubeck, ligeti, rorem, carlisle, floyd, glass, corigliano, rutter, adams, and heggie.
All on par with, and generally better than Boulez
>>61672301
Stravinsky and Schoenberg
>>61674134
Neither of them were born in the 20th century, pleb
>>61674242
who cares about +/- 20 years really? It has nothing to do with music
>>61674134
>>61674242
Well, there's a complete generation between say Stravinsky and Boulez.
Music changed a lot during those 40 years.
Nah Bernstein and Shostakovitch are my picks. Gershwin would, too if he didn't miss it by two years.
>>61674513
The only criteria in OP's question were
>Composer
>Born in the 20th century
Cmon son.
>>61674689
Solid picks, and I agree with Gershwin because he was RIGHT at the cutoff. Britten and Copland were right up there, too.
>>61668735
nope, Aaron Copland
>>61668735
IMHO tiers go:
1. Claude Debussy
2. Arnold Schoenberg
3. Olivier Messiaen
4. Pierre Boulez
Rest don't matter nearly as much really.
>>61671398
LOL
fuck off
>>61672377
>>61672526
>>61673910
>>61674689
b8
>>61673910
Shostakovich is undoubtedly the alpha, and of the rest Adams is my personal favorite. As I write this Tromba Lontana is playing in my head.
Why is Schnittke so heavily underrated here?
Hard mode: don't mention any metalhead avant teen.
FACT
Shostakovich never made anything that would stand the test of time compared to Repons or Le Marteau sans Maitre
FACT
>>61674989
Nice try, but Debussy and Schoenberg were born in the 1800s
>>61675077
Oh, didn't see that.
What a stupid distinction. No one cares about birth dates, they care about activity.
>>61675077
Schoenberg's music was shit tier, anyways
>but muh avant garde twelve tone
Fuck right off with that bullshit
>>61675124
Tell me, how much of his work have you heard?
How much do you know about twelve tone music?
Most importantly of all, have you actually looked at any of his scores?
>>61675091
OP literally said "composer born in the 20th century"
Learn to read, pleb
>>61675124
>>61675050
Much as I like Le Marteau sans Maitre and a lot of his other compositions I really don't think they will stand the test of time.
>>61675091
Debussy wasn't a "20th century" composer anyway.
>>61675176
Why don't you? Because they aren't minimalist dogshit?
>>61675213
La Mer was done in 1900, along with other great works
>>61675151
I've heard plenty of Schoenberg and it was all garbage.
>but muh music theory and score analysis
Nobody in the real world gives a fuck about that shit. His music sounded like garbage and was garbage
>>61675231
Name the pieces by Schoenberg or other 2nd Viennese School composers that you have heard.
Bussotti, Dallapiccola, Krenek, Carter, Dutilleux, Ferneyhough, Gubaidulina all more interesting to me than Boulez.
>>61675258
I don't have to qualify myself to you, pleb. I've heard a few of his string quartets, his variations for orchestra, the Verklärte Nacht and Pierrot Lunaire, etc. They all sound like garbage and I'm pretty convinced that nobody ACTUALLY likes his music. Only hipster faggots pretend to like it to seem sophisticated.
>"hates" Schoenberg
>can't even name the pieces he's listened by him
Fucking teenagers need to leave these generals.
>>61675438
Well none of them are more interesting than Boulez in the context of 20th century music.
>>61675439
Hmmm interesting that you mentioned works with high levels of compositional detail, or emotional imagery. Maybe you just listened to them in the background of your vidya.
>>61675478
Funny that they all sounded like dog shit
>>61675439
pleb hipster faggot, you're not really convincing anyone with that kind of banal language
Oh ok, this is just embarrassing now, have fun.
>>61675524
Funny that you never analyzed them.
>>61675531
Of course you can't find any fault in my flawless logic, so you try to dismiss it on other grounds. Nice try fag
Jewberg and his homosexual puppet John Cage ruined music to be quite honest.
>>61675590
I don't have to pour over a score and analyze every chord to determine a musical work's merit. I do that by listening to it. If it sounds like shit, it is shit.
>>61675647
lol. Not really, nobody takes Cage seriously. And only obscurist hipsters claim to like Schoenberg.
>>61675673
>I don't have to pour over a score and analyze every chord to determine a musical work's merit.
You kind of do, actually. That's what classical music is based on. The score. Not "muh feels."
>>61675647
You cheap moron don't even realise that Cage was essentially anti-schoenberg and anti-german school since the very beginning.
>>61675700
>only obscurist hipsters
AKA "only people who listen to classical music."
>>61675825
This is a shit opinion. Music is, and always has been, first and foremost an audio experience. The score is merely a tool for the musicians to make the correct sounds at the correct times.
If it's played correctly, and sounds shitty, then it's shitty music. Schoenberg's music sounds shitty.
>>61675853
[Incorrect, for the record]
>>61675897
>If it's played correctly, and sounds shitty, then it's shitty music. Schoenberg's music sounds shitty.
I don't think it sounds shitty.
Neither do people who actually take classical music seriously.
We don't care about your opinion.
>>61675866
That totally explains why the majority of classical music fans dislike Schoenberg. GTFO of here with your pleb opinions.
>>61668735
Anyone have his Rite of Spring?
>>61675903
that were his feels on which he based his late philosophy
>>61674898
I agree, too bruh.
>>61674989
>Debussy
>Schoenberg
19th century dumbfuck
>Olivier Messiaen
>Pierre Boulez
You would. Stupid talentless hack shit like that from the 20th century is exactly what went wrong with classical music and is also what is wrong with the shit aspect of /mu/
Good songwriting/composition is more important than muh experimentalism bullshit. Besides, Schaffer, Stockhausen, and Xenakis are much more important to the muh experimentalism gimmick bullshit anyway.
>>61675928
lol, you're speaking for a collective "we" that does not exist. Most people regard Schoenberg's music as gimmicky, obtuse, and shitty.
Your critiques are so harsh, I'll have to wipe my tears with the money I make being a professional classical musician.
>>61675982
>>61676016
This is just a b8 thread now.
>>61675032
People can't deal with him. They can handle one style at a time, but not polystylism.
Incidentally, he would be my pick for greatest composer born in the 20th century.
>>61675124
>Schoenberg's music was shit
What you're trying to say is:
*I dont like Schoenberg's music
*I dont understand Schoenberg's music, or what he's trying to accomplish
*I have a closed mind and need a comfy melody to enjoy something
Schoenberg's music is widely accepted to be great. You just have bad taste. I think Schoenberg wrote some of the most seminal 20th century music, largely to being so heavily grounded in late romantic traditions and forms.
>>61675032
Shitnittke is properly rated.
>>61676045
It had better be. Can the same listener respond with pleasure to all of the following widely divergent styles & sensibilities in music composed during the 20th century?
>Schoenberg -- Chamber Symphony #1
>Debussy -- Fetes
>Copland -- Appalachian Spring
>Shostakovich -- Symphony #11
>Adams -- Chairman Dances
>Glass -- Koyaanisqatsi
>Respighi -- Feste Romane
I most certainly do, and never mind the fact that out of the prior centuries I also especially savor such diamonds as:
Handel -- Semele
Haydn -- Symphony #88
Bach -- Orchestral Suite #3
Johann Strauss jr -- Demolier Polka
Schumann -- Symphony #2
Paganini -- Violin Concerto #2
Berlioz -- Symphonie Fantastiqe
As for why I'd rather be dead than do without at least that much variety, and am happy only with much more, let's just say that appetites vary in degree as much as they do in kind.
>>61677088
>Haydn but no Mozart
>fptmiu
>>61675982
>implying Messiaen isn't unassailable
Literally everyone likes Messiaen when they hear him. Even plebs
>>61677119
>Mozart -- Symphonies #24, 29, 35, 40 are dearer to me than most of the the others of my acquaintance.
>>61677402
Confirmed not knowing what a conductor does nor having listened to his music.
>>61677472
Is he better at waving his arms than the other guys who wave their arms?
>>61677567
A few of them actually yes.
>>61677472
Agreed. Notice that such moron caricatures of the conductor's role never include those who lead from the keyboard, as Pinnock did.
>>61676766
What I'm saying is that I'm not some impressionable pleb who could'n't be convinced by my obscure faggot music theory nerd professors to like shitty music like Schoenberg.
Yes, I like music that sounds good. I don't think it ALWAYS has to be beautiful, but listening to non stop atonal bullshit makes me and 99% of the rest of the world want to blow my fucking brains out.
Schoenberg is widely accepted to be hit, you're the one with the narrow point of view.
Schoenberg's shitty atonal, avant garde circle jerk music is one of the huge problems with modern compositional style.
>>61677567
>>61677633
let it be known that Boulez was a professional arm waver and did so with grandeur and style
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y17-pJZ9nEg
i dont know much bout classical, so please bear with me here
why do people shit on Karajan a lot? Who would be deemed one of the best conductors? How do you even figure out which conductors/interpretations are good and which arent?
I'm presuming it's really just up to the individual listener..?
>>61677850
I will admit Schoenberg may be in part responsible for the sort of musical degeneracy that pervades academia today but that is just a contingency of his legacy as a composer. Truthfully he and his pupils, especially Berg, created some of the most complex and engaging music of the 20th century. Music became shitty when academics memed atonal composition into "make it sound as shitty and absurd as possible".
>>61677928
for me Karajan's horns are just too fucking loud. And he just has no sense of subtlety in his interpretations
>>61677928
Karajan brimmed with enthusiasm and passion, which made him great at conducting certain repertoire (especially some of the great romantic symphonies and operas), but wasn't as good at the more nuanced, intellectual stuff.
For my money, Maazel and Toscanini were the best conductors of the 20th century.
>>61677928
https://archive.rebeccablacktech.com/mu/?task=search2&ghost=yes&search_text=Karajan&search_subject=&search_username=&search_tripcode=%21%215gKyFantaEM&search_email=&search_filename=&search_datefrom=&search_dateto=&search_media_hash=&search_op=all&search_del=dontcare&search_int=dontcare&search_ord=new&search_res=post
SDF probably explains Karajan's strengths and weaknesses better than I could, to be be quite honest my family. I don't listen to him too often, but I do personally enjoy his Strauss and Sibelius.
I listened to his Beethoven once, it was awful.
>>61677968
Ugh. Berg's music sounds like garbage too. As an opera singer, I'm pretty familiar with his works because of Lulu, which introduced me to him more intimately than my music history/ theory classes. I just hate that music, it sounds like complete ass.
Then contrast a guy like Berg with a contemporary like Korngold, whose music was absolutely gorgeous but also still innovative and new.
At some point, classical composers became so obsessed with trying to make things that were new, that they lost sight of making things that were GOOD.
>>61678164
you have very bad opinions desu
>>61569364
Hey to this guy who recommended me some classical pieces a few days ago I listened to them, bretty good.
>>61678204
Let's do a direct comparison, what sounds better? This Korngold aria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHhP0pU0bSo
Or this Berg aria? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEaUqwqArj4
>>61677928
people shit on him because hes overrated like bernstein.
karajan has good recordings, but people tend to gloss over or think that his bad recordings are good
>>61678317
the korngold if only because the berg you linked to me sounds distant and horribly recorded
>>61678389
Ah, didn't realize the recording was shitty. Here's a better one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzNFgFXoHxk
>>61677928
Like everyone else, even conductors have their good and bad decades, and better or worse compatibility with organizations that differ as much as orchestras do, often for reasons no one quite knows. About all you can do is try out and compare recommendations & comments from experienced listeners and critics, give some real time to listening away from distractions and "the madding crowd", and read biographies of whatever composers you grow fond of. Starting out, I learned a great deal just listening to the two classical radio stations in Chicago during the 80s & 90s, making tons of off-air recordings, buying whatever I could afford, "borrowing" everything I could get my hands on, including from a big public library nearby, and reading the Penguin guides. With the internet at your fingertips, you may either get lost or enjoy a swifter learning curve than I did, so finding critical voices that prove true to your own growing experience is more important than it ever was.
>>61678149
Der Rosenkavalier is a mighty lighthearted beast, and Karajan's recording from the 60s is exemplary of it. Yet he also did Tchaikovsky's 6th in a way so insanely over-the-top in the 3rd movement that there really isn't anything quite like it, and "wrong" as it is in its extreme, I return to it for how right it is in registering delusional mania. Inconsistent as Karajan was, even in the difference between boringly conventional and bafflingly eccentric, he did touch genius often enough to be worth the time that trying-out takes.
>>61679505
Tchaikovsky's 6'th symphony is so fucking good. I can't think of another symphony that is so consistently amazing throughout the entirety.
Reminder that Harnoncourt is probably next to die. Maybe Steve Reich and Argerich too.
>>61680103
Although I generally prefer music that's more emotionally reserved, sweet, or serene, the 6th is unique in how directly it goes to the extremes it does, and in how completely successful it is at doing so. It may go against the grain of my temperament, but I cannot resist anything made with as much genius.
>>61680737
;-;
>>61677894
DAMN, WHAT A BAD ASS
>>61680737
>>61680871
Don't lament their deaths, they lived full lives and actually were able to touch other people's lives with their work. They should be celebrated, not lamented.
>>61670954
implying they were...peers?
lolelkek
>>61677894
Saw him conduct live in Montréal; it was a fantastic night.
What media player does /classical/ use? I just bought a new computer and am in the market for a new one to play a mixture of both downloads and CD imports.
>Importing CDs
There's a literal wall of organ CDs in our organ practice room and some of them are really niche and interesting.
Pic semi-related.
>>61677928
He's shit because he's unable to interpret the music and just ends up making it sound grandiose, this applies to all his recordings (yes, including his Schoenberg)
>>61677850
but Schoenberg does sound good. You just have to listen for colors, timbres, unusual combinations of instruments and notes. You can't be listening for melody or standard harmony. You have to open your fucking ears to the sound of the 20th century. Life changed, so did music. Industrialization was in and Royalty was out. Europe in the 1900s was in for the biggest overhaul it had ever seen, including music.
If you dont want to listen to 20th century music, I think you'll find it is you who are the pleb. Its not a matter of taste, his music is beautiful, it just isn't beautiful in the traditional way. All the composers from around this era dealt with a wider variety of subjects than just beauty or sadness. European composers had to deal with 2 of the worst wars on record, combined with the stress of tyrants like Hitler and Stalin. Whether they left for the states or suffered through it, writing music would never be the same.
Fuck, if you think tonal music could have continued to evolve after Wagner, you probably just dont know enough about music history. Things had to change in order for composers to challenge themselves and their audiences. Beethoven did it, Bach did it, and Schoenberg did it, Just in their own ways. the second Viennese composers like Webern, Berg and Schoenberg wrote some of the most beautiful music of the seiralists, all being well versed in late romantic writing. Why not pick on the truly atonal composers like Carter or Ferneyhough? Here are composers who have completely abandoned any traditional sense of beauty or easily recognizable emotions.
>>61669733
what quality are these in?
why are you all such pretentious contrarian fucks
>>61685929
who
>>61686094
this general as a whole
>>61683257
Foobar
Is Wozzeck the most immediately gripping opera ever?
>>61668735
His complete work 320kbps
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/dFt1aJON/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/r2eVePDI/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/406BzAeT/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/ciPEDpDU/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/NQ3iw5a0/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/zPRmxr6G/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/V385b7oc/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/rguX9RCm/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/hQf1eKEO/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/nXMwDIH3/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/AvO65twa/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/a3V5Jef6/file.html
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/KQTZv4ww/file.html
>>61675950
I sure do, here in the same cd with pétrouchka, with the cleveland orchestra
http://www28.zippyshare.com/v/68897845/file.html
>>61687830
Cheers
Has anyone got a upload of good recording of Stravinsky's Symphony for Winds? It's next on my study plan. Can't wait...!
>>61688020
I got you senpai
OP is always benevolent with you /classical/ anons
You're welcome
>>61688314
I mean Octet, lol
>>61688367
Still OP here, there you go my friend
http://avantgardeproject.conus.info/mirror/agp100/index.htm
>>61688367
>>61688806
Oh yeah, it's from this one I believe, in case you were wondering
>>61688367
>>61688886
>>61684203
They were too interested in "challenging themselves" and creating something entirely new that they ended up making music that just flat out sucked. Good music sounds good, period.
You say that those composers HAD to go the direction they went, and yet there are plenty of composers after Wagner who still created beautiful music that was also theoretically innovative. Korngold, Britten, Gershwin (and really all of the great jazz composers, like Brubeck and Bill Evans), etc etc ad nauseam. Messiaen is a very good example of a composer whose music employed a TON of different colors, and yet it also was beautiful as it's default. This is where Schoenberg and Berg horribly failed; they failed to create music that was even occasionally beautiful or enjoyable.
>>61689665
And you'll claim that anyone who finds Berg or Schoenberg's music beautiful and enjoyable is lying?
>>61687517
Wozzeck is immediately appalling. Come on, just listen to this, this music is fucking retarded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvtQczwcvK0
>>61689732
I'm convinced they're either lying, or have their head so far up their asses that they might as well be.
>>61686146
>truly I am the champion of the common man!
>>61687517
Yes few operas draw you into their soundworld quicker. Tried to think or something similar the only thing I think works as effectively is Rossini's long overture to William Tell.
>>61689785
You are convinced by your own lack of appreciation and you think it is others with their heads up their asses? Most sensible people would see that as a time to be humble about their opinion and not just allow it to reinforce itself.
>>61689833
nice strawgoal post ad homonim
>>61689785
How about enjoyable but not beautiful? There is a particular variety of pervert which is okay with abandoning beauty for stronger expression.
>>61689665
>They were too interested in "challenging themselves" and creating something entirely new that they ended up making music that just flat out sucked.
Creating something entirely new? None of it is completely new. It's a logical progression from old very old composers like Obrecht and Isaac, and from newer ones like Brahms and Mahler.
>they failed to create music that was even occasionally beautiful or enjoyable.
But I find plenty of their music beautiful and enjoyable, so I guess they didn't fail.
Your presumptuous thoughts behind why they made the music that did and their purposes behind doing so only serve to highlight just how uninformed you are in regards to Schoenberg's, Webern's, and Berg's intentions behind making the music that they did.
>>61689766
>claims it is immediately appalling
>posts a excerpt from Act II in garbage sound quality as an example
???
>>61689785
You have quite the narrow world view, to be sure. I suppose the hundreds of performers, conductors, and the multitude of composers who sympathize with their music (not strictly for their aptitude in theory) were all just liars/and/or up their own asses, then.
>>61689942
How can you take that person seriously? Saying that Schoenberg or Berg never composed anything beautiful, I can only assume they have heard one or two compositions of his. Even some of the less informed people I know in classical have heard his Verklärte Nacht and the Gurre-lieder, which is entry-level Schoenberg and both of those are tonal as hell and very accessible and beautiful. Much of his later music is beautiful too, albeit you find the beauty through a harsher viewpoint. The brief glimpses where he returns to tonality in his Violin Concerto, for example, strike me as a return to a naive sense of old romanticism and that, in contrast with the otherwise rather bleak atmosphere of the rest of the concerto, makes for something that is really quite enjoyable in my view. It's a reflection of their times.
>>61673910
>corigliano
Corigliano's Piano Concerto is my favouorite 21st century piece.
Boulez was an important figure in continuing to practice serialism and push its boundaries but I wouldn't say he was the greatest composer born in the 20th century. My personal favorite is Ligeti.
>>61690169
Perhaps taken as a whole and considering his composition, his personal conducting style and his championing of modernist music he could be regarded individual in 20th century classical but I would agree his legacy as just a composer doesn't seem significant enough to be the greatest.
>>61690284
Yeah
Tbh i'm not that into classical but Boulez is one of the only conductors i can namedrop off the top of my head so he must be important
I discovered him in an advanced music theory class i took in freshman year of college. Had to write a bunch of serial pieces, shit was awesome
>quiet passage starts to play
>COUGHCOUGHCOUGHCOUGHHACKSNEEZECOUGHCOUGH
What do you work out to?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f5XBSAFXf8
>>61690590
#workingouttotheclassics
>>61671630
>Boulez hated Zappa's work
Who doesn't?
Dissonance, atonality, serialism, jittery electric-eel-biting-your-prostate rhythms, these are all incidental to Schoenberg's music being bad.
It's akin to Bach's music - inane and boring - due to Schoenberg being a quintessential German - morbidly obsessed with form and effort and utterly indifferent to sonority. He didn't emancipate shit, his music isn't "free", it's just imprisoned at the other end of the tonal harmony stick.
>>61689732
A combination of buyer's remorse, self-imposed Stockholm syndrome and sheer repetition will make anyone find anything beautiful.
>>61692124
Forgot to add:
Which is why it's so important to individuate music and write off boring or ugly pieces with the least amount of listening.
>>61692124
But I don't buy anything, and upon the very first listen I loved the 5 Pieces for Orchestra.
>>61692199
You remind me of the horses downtown with the blinders on.
>>61692249
I have a matching cock.
>>61692051
>>61692124
Be careful, you might end up believing your own baits, sons.
>>61692295
That's pretty gross, man
>>61692051
Aesthetics is wholly subjective. Because of this structure and counterpoint are not less legitimate goals than anything else.
What is the solo piano equivalent of the scorpion boys in Dead Space?
>>61677176
this, Messiaen is Messi of XXth century composers
>>61675124
>i dismiss legendary composer's output because i just want to be original and it's not cool to appreciate everybody
too bad you'll never in your life achieve anything in any field even comparable to what you call "shit tier avant garde tvelwe tone"
Don't forget to vote for Trump.
>>61692904
guys seriously
>>61693471
>voting for plebs
http://www.sinfinimusic.com/uk/features/blogs/christopher-gillett/interview-donald-trumpet-takes-on-opera-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnVEtvcx82g
Is this an original piece or did they rip this from somewhere?
Can anyone recommend me some contemporary choral?
>>61693621
No one has ever heard that shit, describe it. Probably Chopin, go listen to Chopin.
>>61695694
Please respond.
>>61677928
>why do people shit on Karajan a lot?
because those people are miserable cunts who cannot enjoy beauty.
Is there a name for accompaniment that has the bass play the root then the rest of the chord, like in a waltz but not a waltz, in 4/4 time for example 'bum buh buh buh'
>>61697013
fucking womemes
>>61697013
You've made that up haven't you.
Tell me you did please
>>61697527
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008HATNMQ
>>61695967
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaPTL1H5ufc
>>61697013
>female
No.
here's a proper art music cover.
>>61697939
I'd like to be mad but I'm too dumbfounded
>>61677176
>dem organ works
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY7g0ULVl2I
>>61698109
>tfw no qt Renaissance bf
