I'm 31, I want to be a musician but not really play live. I would play live in a big theatre, I just don't care to play dives on a Wednesday to people who like Townes Van Zandt or Gram Parsons. Is it possible to make a living this way and is it possible to jump to big theatres.
nah
There are a handful of people making a living out of music. They have been playing their instrument and writing songs for at least ten years. How dedicated are you anon? How's your gag reflex?
>>61339797
I've been playing guitar since I was ten and writing songs since that age, I just have been too pussy to commit to it as a way to make money.
at this point it's not even possible to make a living off of music if you're touring constantly(unless you're signed to a big label and your records land in the upper positions of the billboard 200, that is), much less if you're not touring at all
support yourself with a proper job and pursue music in your time off that job
>>61339851
>at this point it's not even possible to make a living off of music if you're touring constantly
bullshit
>>61339823
Well you gotta understand that it has never been harder to make money from being a musician. You HAVE to commit. You have to approach it like you are running a business. You have to constantly be promoting yourself and looking for ways to catch people's attention. The avenues that musicians have relied on to do this for the last decade are fading away.
You also have to be reasonably good looking, not an autist, and have a sizeable amount of money to throw at promotion and touring. As a struggling professional musician, i can tell you, it's like hitting your head against a brick wall. The odds really are stacked against you. That said, the small glimpses of success are pretty amazing.
>>61339890
No wonder you're struggling.
>>61339753
Well, I mean I guess it's certainly possible if you turn out to be so brilliant the original music you make in your bedroom and put on the internet just propels you do instant fame but lol good fucking luck buddy. To be honest this sounds like a pretty arrogant and stupid way to come at it, you might as well say "hey guys I really love cooking and I want to become and professional chef, but I only want to go straight to cooking in a Michelin star top restaurant don't want to cook in a little local place first or anything" it's like well cool buddy let me know how that turns out for you lol
>>61339851
neo /mu/ everyone
>>61339878
not unless you've got a good and non-greedy manager, solid label backing and a moderately large(as in having hundreds of people turning up for the gigs and shelling out additional money for whatever merch you're selling) audience
most bands nowadays, even the hip ones that get P4K praise and play trendy festivals, hold day jobs when not on the road
it's just the way things are now
>>61339909
why do you say that
>>61339948
this is the way things fucking work, what's "neo-/mu/" got to do with it?
unless your records are selling well enough to land in the top 50 or top 40 on the billboard charts("b-but my swans and animal collective albums are super-obscure and they've found a way to make a living off their music!" look up where their albums land on the charts, dumbass, they're not obscure by any stretch of the imagination) any aspirations of living well off of the music you're making are pure fantasy
>>61339928
Te tone does sound arrogant I admit, it's just I think it is better to spend time putting in work on a good album with good artwork, than playing a bar to people with no influence whatsoever. It's about being economical with time.
>>61340064
Playing those smaller venues and such is primarily about exposure. If you're not playing to crowds, you'll need to invest similar (or perhaps greater) amounts of time in promoting yourself other ways.
>>61339999
>>61339955
Profesh muso here. Unless you are in a band that hits the big time (bout the same chance as winning the lottery) the only way to live off music is to be a member of a whole bunch of different bands simultaneously, including a covers band/band that frequently plays wedding and corporates and stuff and apart maybe from your one freaky personal project they'll all need to be working, local bands that gig in bars and stuff and get paid so you always have gigs between the bunch of them throughout the month. Then during the day you teach, teach, teach. Between those two if you do pretty well you'll actually live like a pretty normal middle class person - in order to do that well you need to be skilled muso who knows theory and shit and can play a variety of genres and has a friendly personality that is good for networking and teaching kids and stuff though
>>61339955
BULLSHIT
I make 15 bucks an hour making pizza. 40 hours a week.
It's a meager living, and you're telling me an indie band that plays 100 shows a year getting 1000 dollars per show aren't making anything?
They're just terrible with money.
How much money do you think Deerhunter get per show. I bet over 10000. So they're making no money?
Where do people think bands make no money?
That article by the guy from Grizzly Bear? who spent all his money on cocaine
>>61340102
In this age of self promotion, no promotion is the best way. Jandek-style.
No social media, nothing.
Who cares about being exposed to plebs at a dive bar ???
>>61339890
fuck the haters this is good advice
>>61340150
A show every 3rd night?
I've played international supports, festivals, toured interstate.. I can count on one hand how many times we've gotten more than $500 per gig. Divide that between four of us, factor in that we only play in the city which is an hour drive..
You would make more money making pizza, no doubt.
>>61340150
Deerhunter and Grizzly Bear are pretty huge big time bands though. Also 100 shows a year is fucking massive that would be an intense tour and you couldn't do that every year
>>61340119
you are exactly what I don't want to be... ever.
>>61340150
ed droste had been suffering through depression lmao
do grizzly bear seem like the kind of band to be into cocaine?
>>61340179
No promotion at all? I fail to see how that at all could be of any benefit. Sure you seem hip and off the grid. But you will have no more than ten people at your shows
>>61340187
What's your band?
If you're getting less than $500 bucks you just suck. sorry.
>>61340194
The dude said hip bands on pitchfork. and neither are in the billboard 200.
>>61340210
Least you can do is have a formflyer you send to your connects so they dont have to put much effort into promoting the thing
promotion is easy as fuck to do, just takes a little time
>>61340230
Nope, our music doesn't really cater to festival crowds etc, that's where the money is from what i understand. Where can a band play every third night for 1000 bucks? Not everywhere is like NYC.
500 is a great night. We play for free constantly. So do our peers, and the bands we look up to
>>61340204
lol yeah they do. They look like everyone I know that does cocaine. They look like they'd work in advertising if not in a band...aka people who do cocaine.
>>61340210
It's called being cool. The most important part of marketing.
>>61340201
Really? What are you upto this new years eve? I'm playing an outdoor festival in a 10 piece afrobeat band then doing coke and MDMA afterwards. Just cus I teach kids (which can actually be really awesome and rewarding) and play covers at weddings (which to be honest can vary but we play shit that we dig and when people are getting wasted and partying it can be awesome) doesn't mean I'm living some balding never made it guitar teacher life style. I'm 22 and most of the bands I'm in play buzzy cool original music in various local scenes.
>>61340261
Haha, they sorta brand themselves that way.
It would mean at least one songs makes more sense;
https://vimeo.com/99981614
>>61340248
Lets say they do get a thousand bucks per gig and do a hundred gigs a year.
That's 100 grand. Lets be charitable and assume that's after all expenses have been paid, management and travel and accommodation and so on. Still got to split that between four people. Still got to pay taxes. Still got to pay back the label for any advances given. Suddenly that hundred grand ain't going so far.
>>61340259
LOL you guys definitely suck.
>We play for free constantly
HAHA there is your problem. So do buskers.
>>61340281
There's ways to be cool whilst not leaving the few people who know your band thinking that you've broken up. So how do people find out you're playing a show?
Like i realise that posting shit on fb every day is nauseating and turns people off your band, but no promo at all? rly
I'm 33 and make a decent living in an 80's new wave synthpop.cover duo.
>>61340285
>I'm playing an outdoor festival in a 10 piece afrobeat band then doing coke and MDMA afterwards.
Cringe
>>61340306
We are talking with one of the biggest labels in the country about signing with them for our next album. We don't suck. Maybe my country just isn't like yours?
We'd rather play venues we like with bands we like so we don't necessarily seek out the highest paying gigs. I guess we could, and should though.
>>61340337
You're cringe m8 you probs don't even play
>>61340305
>pay back the label
It's 2015 you're fucking stupid if you're on a label...aka bad with money.
Also what the fuck do you need a manager for? It's 2015.
>>61340312
No promo at all, posters only.
>>61340380
You really have no idea what you are talking about
>>61340360
>don't seek out highest paying gigs
>complains about not making money
I wish I was your manager so I could steal all your money.
>>61340402
Sure, everyone read that stupid Albini article from the 00's.
>>61340380
>Also what the fuck do you need a manager for? It's 2015.
i bet this is what all the dudes spamming their shit on /mu/ and thinking it's just a matter of time before a record contract from sub pop or matador finds its way to their mailbox think
>>61340453
why would anyone sign with those labels? It's 2016 it's so easy to do everything yourself, what can a label do that you can't?
>>61340380
Labels get you placement and exposure. Even if you're paying out of your own pocket for press and/or radio campaigns leading up to a release, you're still not getting your foot in the door if you don't have the necessary connections within a label.
>>61340380
Being on a label is actually pretty crucial for being heard right now. It's come full circle. 5 years ago the opposite was true.
>>61340490
Contacts, PR.
My band got a rolling stone feature thanks to a label contact. We'd have never gotten that without it.
We are playing a pretty big festival that we wouldn't have gotten without contacts from the label.
>>61340502
LOL
>>61340522
LMAO
great...
A cool band doesn't need PR or "contacts" everyone just wants them...you think Iceage has a PR person trying to get them in Rolling Stone? KEK
Wonder how bad musicians will have it in 20ish years.
You will only have mainstream pop/rap to consume.
>>61340543
Yeah no doubt Iceage has people working PR for them. How did they get in vice magaze, they may not need a person working PR now, but to get them off the ground you bet they did
>>61340543
They do have PR it's actually so embarassing, fucking hypocritical too. Do you think Fugazi had a PR agency working for them?
>>61340543
>you think Iceage has a PR person trying to get them in Rolling Stone? KEK
iceage have a publicist, a manager and additional label(that label being the pseudo-major matador) personnel making sure that their career follows a certain trajectory, yes
they have had these people behind them since 2012
>>61340543
You are literally a fucking dude who doesn't play music sitting in his room, trying to act cooler and condescending towards someone who is doing cool shit in a successful band and playing big shows and stuff while you work your fucking day job and post on /mu/. You're coming off like a total pathetic jealous loser mate get a grip.
>>61340522
And money.
Access to label cash and resources can make a lot of things a lot easier. Comes at a cost but its a lot easier than trying to source crowdfunding or convince the bank to cough up a loan.
>>61340579
No but Ian McKaye was a fucking DIY PR machine in an era when integrity mattered. He ran a label, he played in bands for 15 years before fugazi. He was well known enough and his name carried enough weight to not need PR
>>61340564
Vice magazine constantly needs cool shit for their magazine to remain credible so they seek it out.
It's not hard to get in a magazine. Do you think the Strokes had a PR person trying to get them in every magazine? Every magazine just wanted them.
There's too much politics in the entertain industry. It's not that easy. I play music for me. I won't ever make money or get recognization but expressing myself in myself and creating my own personal world in my music is what I aim to do.
>>61340606
The Strokes were assembled from the ground up man they were a bunch of rich art school kids who put as much emphasis on dressing cool as they did on writing songs. You fucking bet they had a PR team working overtime when Is This It came out.
>>61340594
#triggered
varg has never played live
>>61340588
It makes me not like them
JAMC didn't have PR when they put out Psychocandy they just put out a dope album.
>>61340630
bullshit.
you don't even know about hte Strokes
lol art school kids. assembled?
and yo bands are supposed to dress cool.
>>61340606
>Do you think the Strokes had a PR person trying to get them in every magazine?
if you were actually around and paying attention when is this it originally came out you would know that the degree to which the strokes were peddled and pushed by their label and PR handlers was absolutely comical and eventually started doing the band more harm than good(thus the long-running joke about them being rich kids whose parents bought their way into people giving a shit about them as well as the increasingly lukewarm reactions to their records)
stop talking out of your fucking ass, dude
you don't have a clue
>>61340637
thats sick
>>61340678
proof?
no amount of PR can make people like shit
>>61340678
Thank you, good to see there are people on here who actually were lucid in the early 00's
>>61340703
You must be joking
>>61340579
http://pitchperfectpr.com/iceage/
Iceage are cringey
>>61340703
You couldn't be more wrong. I can't tell if you're trolling or what.
>>61340606
I wish I was still this naive
>>61340703
dude i'm not gonna hunt down 14-year old magazine articles and message board banter for you, do your own research
>no amount of PR can make people like shit
i guess that's why P4K-reading trust fund kids have all of a sudden given up on pretending to give a shit about indie rock and just spontaneously decided they now only gave a shit about taylor swift and young thug
Every band at the record store has spent money on PR. Just like moviemakers do, or authors do. Soundcloud is full of talented musicians with songs that are comparable to what is played on the radio now. The difference is PR, and to a great degree, luck
>>61340715
If the album is good it's good, it doesn't need PR.
The NME needed the Strokes more than the Strokes needed NME just look at all the shitty 4th wave britpop bands they get on the cover that never get anywhere near the level of the Strokes..Viva Brother anyone? Is it of your opinion that a Viva brother jsut didn't have good PR?
the A&r reps for record labels are lazy nowadays because of the internet.
Alll you got to do is get the internet talking about you and they will be lining up at the door to sign you because thats what kids like since they are talking about you they obviously like you is their stupid logic.
You make a viral video, it gets posted on vicefedbuzzredditt, it gets a bazillion views, people notice.
The internet is a tool, it helps you manipulate reality, you use it the right way and it can help you.
all those websites like vice and buzzfeed link to smaller blogs all the time, you have to get on them, and then you get on the bigger ones, its a food chain.
You get reviews from lower tier music blogs and p4k notices and doesnt want to be left out.
Who do you appeal to?
Young people, old people, black, white, asian, latino?
You know how, like someone will be like "oh thats tumblr music" that isnt a bad thing outside of 4chan, that means a lot of young retards with disposable cash listen to you.
You have to become a human meme, you start the viral marketing yourself and then eventually retards start doing it for you, spamming your face an music everywhere, and then mu pretends to like you in order to troll without realizing pretending to be an idiot will lead to actually being an idiot.
Anyways, marketing is very important when you think about it.
how you project yourself to the outside world, who you appeal to, what kind of music you make.
>>61340762
>If the album is good it's good, it doesn't need PR.
You're essentially saying marketing is useless. Virtually every facet of modern Western existence disproves that.
>>61340748
nahhhhhh...if you're album s good it will blow up. the dudes on soundcloud are not good and are not that talented.
>>61340762
you can market complete shit music if you want, the music actually being good is just a plus.
Its about image rather than quality
>>61340782
Marketing is useless...the album is the marketing tool.
so Kid A is just good marketing?
>>61340762
Even if its brilliant, it still needs some PR. You've got talk people into listening to it before they can be wowed by its genius and that's where publicity and marketing kick in.
>>61340770
Problem is even the lower tier music blogs are even getting over 1000 submissions a day. Getting them to listen to your shit 5 years ago was so much easier, before everyone else got wise and oversaturated literally every music blog with a tiny bit of clout.
>>61340786
You're just jaded.
>>61340804
Kid A is known for being one of the most uniquely and well marketed albums of the 2000s.
>>61340824
proof?
would the band admit that?
in this day and age there is not an undiscovered great artist.
No one has yet described what PR people do.
>>61340820
He's not wrong though.
What a coincidence that every popular female singer (except for two or three, and this is a recent trend) could pass as a model
>>61340866
It doesn't matter what the band think. Every band thinks they're popular because of their music. Fact is, EMI pushed Radiohead to the heavens in the mid 90s. Difficult records like Kid A selling is the result of that.
>>61340879
It's always been that way.
>>61340804
look you idiot, of course people will like good music, but selling something, marketing something is apart of the music BUSINESS.
You see that word BUSINESS!
We live in a capitalistic society, its about supply and demand, you create a demand for yourself, then you supply it.
Ok, think about the mu meme time machine modulus, some shitty math rock band that played one show at a high school talent show years ago, yet you know about them.
Because mu spammed them all over the internet enough to get a following for a a band that is old and doesn't exist anymore.
Mu marketed a band that played one show and doesn't exist anymore!
Capitalism has been around for ages, people have written books about this shit, marketing, advertising, you need to know how to sell yourself, your music, your product, and its easier than ever in the online age.
>>61340893
Nahhhhh...
Music reviewers would have been waiting for the followup for Ok Computer. Like they would have forgotten about radiohead.
I remember the advertising blips.
but come one people here making out that it's 90% marketing 10% music.
That might be true for a Spice Girls but not a Radiohead.
>>61340804
kid a was one of the first records to be marketed in a way which prominently utilized the publicity-creating potential of online chatter and the self-creating publicity that chatter created(and continues to create), it's kind of famous for that
that potential was also used by pitchfork with that ridiculous fucking 10/10 review full of absurd prose, that review was created with the deliberate and direct aim of breaking pitchfork to a larger audience
>>61340866
PR people are basically in charge of submitting your music and image, the whole package of what you're selling, to press and radio in a way of maximizing your chances of being heard, and subsequently getting a write-up or airplay. There's a lot more to it, but that's the gist of it.
>>61340894
pop stars have to be good looking because sex sells.
BUUUUT of course there are still people who dont care about that, so then you get bitches like kim gordon or pattie smith that appeal to those people.
ITS MARKETS, IN CAPITALISM YOU HAVE DIFFERENT MARKETS!
SOME PEOPLE APPEAL TO SOME PEOPLE AND SOME PEOPLE APPEAL TO ALL PEOPLE, IF YOU CARE ABOUT MONEY OR DONT YOU SHOULD LEARN THIS!
>>61340934
Would it surprise you to learn that nobody cares about music reviewers?
>>61340900
I get it..subversive marketing is still marketing. My point is that it doesn't matter how good the marketing for Puddle of Mudd is, the music sucks and no one wants them in their magazine. Why aren't they in Vice?
>>61340866
oh of course you have to do all this stuff like market yourself but you should never admit it in front of a camera because that wont look cool to your hipster friends, but thats apart of the marketing too, making yourself fell authentic
>>61340964
puddle of mud was played on the radio all the time and it doesnt matter if you dont like them because some people obviously did at one point in time, you aren't their market.
Also magazines are irrelevant in the internet age, as i said, the internet is a tool, take it in your hands and work boy
>>61340945
If I was in a band I would never fucking talk to anyone in PR fuking tools.
>>61340945
You think The Smiths had a PR person.
>>61341004
It becomes a necessity once you realise that "der if you make good music everyone will know about you" is a cruel myth.
>>61341004
4REELZ DAWG KEEPIN IT REEL YO
>>61340966
You think Lightning Hopkins had a marketing team? Bullshit. ODB? nahhhhhh
Lmao this whole thread is some 12 year old that thinks Kid A is good
>>61341023
yes
>>61341023
Probably. Music industry was completely different then, either way.
>>61341032
No it's not look at Nirvana and Ossis...rags to riches boys. All on the back of songs.
Only people who work in marketing and advertising think it is important.
That's why the only cool people in music are the bands and artists.
>>61341023
of course they fucking did, morrissey's major ambition for the band was for them to become one of the biggest pop bands in the world, which resulted in him resenting rough trade for not actually doing more than they did(and they did a lot) to get the smiths in magazines and on tv
>>61341049
No they didn't, they didn't have a manager either.
>>61341086
This is really hurting me. Are all these bands fake?
>>61341079
Both bands whose image and trendsetting has arguably had as big an impact as their music. Go figure
>>61341044
I dont know about odb but him being a street nigger i assume he sold drugs, so yes he would know about selling yourself, anyways RZA was the brains of the Wu tang clan and was the one probably involved in marketing
>>61341023
lol do you even know anything about morrissey?
He loved pop music and considered himself a pop star
>>61341105
They're not fake. It's just that the music industry is bs and this is the hidden side of it
>>61341105
>wanting people to buy and enjoy your music
>fake
have fun being a homeless vagrant you fucking 12 year old commie retard
>>61341086
Did Joy Division have PR?
Seems like there is a fine line between label PR and svengalis shit like your Malcolm Mclarens, Andrew Oldhams, Alan McGees, Tony Wilsons..etc does it change the opinion of the music?
Is the song a marketing tool as well?
Just start a bandcamp and release all your shitty songs on their as "pay what you want".
Guaranteed to make money.
>>61341079
nirvana and oasis were both extremely lucky to have captured the zeitgeist
and kurt cobain was notorious for how desperate for publicity and popularity he was while at the same time being equally desperate to be seen as "underground and authentic", there's not one nirvana biography out there which does not dedicate at least some writing to how hellbent he was on nirvana dominating MTV and the radio as much as possible
>>61341107
Right, but their image was not contrived as a marketing scheme in the way that a Monkees or Hives was.
>>61340150
>I make 15 bucks an hour making pizza.
sup devin
>>61340285
>>61340201
Please kill yourself.
>>61341132
No internet presence.
>>61341177
Just shill on /mu/ and reddit :)
>>61341130
>Did Joy Division have PR?
i'm sure factory helped them out as much as they could but the thing about joy division is that they weren't really that big of a band during their actual years of activity, they didn't need major PR or whatever
they shared the stage with bands like killing joke and the fall and shit, not with major pop acts
it's the same deal as what happened with the stooges, their popularity came well after the band already ended
>>61340762
>If the album is good it's good, it doesn't need PR.
you are the dumbest motherfucker on the board, holy shit.
>>61341134
It comes down to the songs though.
It reminds me of a story Aziz Ansari told about fellow comedians at the club who weren't getting better gigs or acting work , and thought it was because they didn't have a good headshot, he said "It's not because of the headshot"
>>61341189
So you could say they should have had better PR?
>>61340762
>If the album is good it's good, it doesn't need PR.
can i have some of what you're smoking?
>>61341226
It's true though. Do really think there are hundreds of unheard great bands out there tonight who just have terrible PR?
The cream rises to the top my man.
>>61341221
nah, i don't think they could have benefited much from it unless they also made their music easier to digest(which new order kinda did anyway)
>>61341266
Their music is not that wild.
I want you to look at this picture of kurt cobain on the cover of rolling stones, his shirt says "Corporate Magazines Still Suck".
YET!
He is still on the magazine.
Kurt wasnt an idiot, he knew how the game is played even if he didnt support it, so he was a contradiction who knew the evils of it but had to play the game.
You are living in idiot land if you think people will just like your music and you dont have to market and sell yourself.
Read kurts journals, he had plans for t shirts and merch, he had plans for music videos, all years in advance.
>>61339948
He's right though. The only other way to make money in music is like >>61340119
said which is pretty much treating music like an amateur athlete who teaches technique to younger kids. For people like me, composition is what is fun about music. The practicing and performing and brute muscle memory is not the fun part, and I don't want to spend all my time doing such a boring thing.
>>61341338
interesting perspective anon
>>61341285
it's not that wild but it is wild enough for most of it(i think transmission actually did have some chart success) not to be pop smash material
>>61341293
>t shirts and merch, he had plans for music videos, all years in advance.
I'm not against that. Becasue they can all and should be viewed as an opportunity to do something cool.
I'm against the PR industry and "the look at me care about this it's important" chatter.
They shouldn't have done that cover btw.
>>61341338
>performing not the fun part
I guess the stage isn't for everybody. I enjoy the writing and performing parts about equally, and I'm still shy as fuck on a personal level.
>>61341367
lets face it, theyd be playing interpols festival slot if they were a current band.
Interpol gets 100k per show and they are never in the charts.
>>61340650
>JAMC didn't have PR when they put out Psychocandy they just put out a dope album.
didn't alan mcgee coach JAMC on how they were supposed to behave in interviews(rudely and arrogantly) and onstage(doing 10-15 minute sets with zero audience interaction and a general too-cool-too-handle attitude) for maximum attention-garnering?
>>61341424
no that's just how they were.
they put out a single and everyone bought it
and they put out another single and everyone bought that one as well. They were so good. Just for one album though
>>61341366
I don't hate on those people, in fact I see it more in the other direction. People like >>61340285 generally spew hate to weekend musicians like me. I'm the only one in my band with a 9-5 job and if I mention it among other people in my scene I generally get looked down upon. They are usually trust fund kids who are on a day trip trying to get status, or people with bizarre jock style pride in their virtuosity. Both constantly shill everywhere and don't really try to form relationships. The only real love in local scenes I have found is when people were already friends and music is a side thing to the actual friendship. That's wonderful
But musicians in general are really awful people usually and it bums me out. I wish I could just quit it all
>>61341396
Performing is only fun in the actual moment and if it's going well. Set up/tear down, practicing the performance, dealing with drunk people all suck so much
>>61341478
Ok so how do you start performing. If you're a solo artist or a band?
>Rehearse an instrument intensely for several years
>Study music theory intensely on the side
>Spend a shitload of money on live shows, study the bands playing
>Spend a shitload of money on equipment
>Devote your entire life to music and only music
>Get your ass back in the fucking line behind the rest of us where you fucking belong, you spoiled fucking cunt
>???
>Profit!
>But probably not
