Does any rapper get more undeserved hate than Jay Z /mu/?
>undeserved
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0637GjJDvk
>>60928974
Yes undeserved sir
>>60928940
He is really, really overrated. Doesn't get enough hate tbqh
>>60928940
Does any rapper get more undeserved praise than Jay Z?
Jay Z deserves any hate he gets just because of how bad his verse on Monster was
>>60930235
He came back on So Appalled.
And bad verses don't damage an entire career.
>>60930178
Explain why he's overrated.
>>60930209
Tupac
he only made like 2 good albums
>>60930260
>production is pretty good
>lyricism is slightly above average on his very best albums and usually just average
>flow is average
Face it bud, the only reason he's well liked is that he has connections and is great at using them. He's a much better businessman than musician. And this is all assuming he even writes his own songs.
>>60930261
Reasonable Doubt, Vol. 2... Hard Knock Life, The Blueprint and The Black Album are all good.
>>60930261
>RD
>In my Lifetime
>Vol 2
>Vol 3
>The Blueprint
>The Black Album
>AG
>>60930301
>production is pretty good
Come on, it's well know that Jay Z get's the best production possible
>lyricism is slightly above average on his very best albums and usually just average
What's above average lyricism and average lyricism to you?
Is Lyrical Exercise average lyricism?
>flow is average
His slick, charismatic, conversational flow is one of a kind and he switches it up so many times it's ridiculous.
He's managed to maintain one of the best flows of all time over his career, though it was probably at its best during RD when he was in between his slower flow and the rappity rap stuff with Jaz-O.
>Face it bud, the only reason he's well liked is that he has connections and is great at using them. He's a much better businessman than musician. And this is all assuming he even writes his own songs.
The reason why Jay Z is well liked is because he's a skilled artist first and foremost, no one is going to get to his status without that, I don't know why Jay Z haters always have to come in and try to diminish that by citing his Business acumen.
Probably because of retarded Jay Z fans who cite his business skill in arguments regularly.
And yes he writes his own songs, and he writes for other people.
His media personality has been really annoying in the last decade, and he hasn't done anything great after his first album
That being said the last thing applies to Nas as well and people dickride him all the time
Also, I think Reasonable Doubt is better than Illmatic for sure
>>60930459
>Not listing American Gangster
Some of the best songwriting in hip hop.
What are the chances that you've never gave it a proper chance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG-SBFf6Sqw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHVihXRCfAE
>>60930260
But Tupac actually had talent
I just hate his voice. You can't change that. He's a talented writer, but his voice is so thin and uninspired... it just kills it for me.
>>60930510
I never said I hated it. I only listened to it once tho tbhfam
I don't ever see people hating him. Normies despise Kanye though somehow
>>60930507
>His media personality has been really annoying in the last decade, and he hasn't done anything great after his first album
What's annoying about his media personality to you? What constitutes a media personality not being annoying in your opinion?
And on the second point, that's one of the biggest myths in hip hop among fans.
If you legitimately have that high of an opinion of RD then there's a litany of Jay Z material that you should like.
And are you going to deny the impact The Blueprint had?
>>60930647
>I don't ever see people hating him
Oh, well I've seen an insane amount of hate thrown at him online, and in real life whether it's about his music or Jay Z himself and his dealings.
>>60930604
Then listen to it or watch those video's I linked.
>>60930548
Are you seriously saying that Jay Z doesn't have talent?
>>60930591
To each their own.
When I think of uninspiring voices I go to Nas.
Jay's voice exudes charisma and confidence imo.
Kanye.
>>60930648
>What's annoying about his media personality to you? What constitutes a media personality not being annoying in your opinion?
I just find him lame, he doesn't take risks, he's too safe and his relationship with Beyonce seems fabricated
>If you legitimately have that high of an opinion of RD then there's a litany of Jay Z material that you should like.
I don't dislike any Jay Z, but his sound is just too "radio sounding" after the year 2000 to be taken too seriously
>And are you going to deny the impact The Blueprint had?
No, and that's his last good album but it's definitely not great to me.
>>60931240
>I just find him lame, he doesn't take risks, he's too safe and his relationship with Beyonce seems fabricated
What type of risks are you looking for from him? He's never been an experimental artist or anything, the most artsy and adventurous album he's made is probably American Gangster.
Actual Magna Carta Holy Grail was a risk, it was poor but it was still a risk.
>I don't dislike any Jay Z, but his sound is just too "radio sounding" after the year 2000 to be taken too seriously
Vol 2 was pre 2000 and was radio rap incarnate, vol 1 was filled with a bunch of shiny suit radio hit attempts
>And are you going to deny the impact The Blueprint had?
Well that's you opinion, but I can't see it as anything less than a pop rap/commerical masterpiece.
And TBA was great imo, was more lyrical than The Blueprint and probably had better songs.
Have you heard American Gangster?
insanely overrated by plebs
insanely underrated by nerds
>>60931422
Elaborate
>>60931342
>What type of risks are you looking for from him?
We were talking about his media personality, let's put him in contrast to Kanye West for example, who speaks his mind on any subject, even if he sounds stupid. That's a bit extreme of an example but you get my point.
>Vol 2 was pre 2000 and was radio rap incarnate, vol 1 was filled with a bunch of shiny suit radio hit attempts
Well that's what I'm saying, he's been too much of a "businessman" after Reasonable Doubt, where he was still street
>And TBA was great imo, was more lyrical than The Blueprint and probably had better songs.
It was OK but too uneven and radio inclined
>>60931485
>We were talking about his media personality, let's put him in contrast to Kanye West for example, who speaks his mind on any subject, even if he sounds stupid. That's a bit extreme of an example but you get my point.
Well I can't argue with this, I'm a big Kanye fan and his personality is apart of it, but I'm also a Jay fan and his image contributes to that.
I see what you're saying though.
>Well that's what I'm saying, he's been too much of a "businessman" after Reasonable Doubt, where he was still street
His transition to the boardroom and hit chasing doesn't bother me, but i'm not going to argue with people who think it harms his authenticity
>It was OK but too uneven and radio inclined
"December 4th
What More Can I Say
Encore
Change Clothes
Dirt Off Your Shoulder
Threat
Moment of Clarity
99 Problems
Public Service Announcement (interlude)
Justify My Thug
Lucifer
Allure
My 1st Song"
I mean there's probably three songs on this list that can be done without, the rest are excellent displays of his lyricism and songwriting ability imo.
Radio inclined or not, but once again that doesn't bother me but I can see why it would cause an issue for other people.
>>60928974
K E K
E
K
>>60931683
>but i'm not going to argue with people who think it harms his authenticity
I don't care about his authenticity as a thug or whatever, just that his music sounds more like he's trying to make hits instead of inspired music, after Reasonable Doubt
>>60931845
Yah I meant authenticity as an artist.
Reminder that Jay won the feud with Nas.
>>60932347
No he didn't
>Inb4 he won the war
>>60932347
Reminder that Ether is a bad diss track. Jay-Z actually came at Nas with actual dirt on his love life. Nas came with stupid gay jokes and puns. "Gay-Z" and "Cock-a-fella", juvenile as fuck.
>>60932914
This. You cannot come back from being told you're a kek in front of the whole world and Nas never did. End of story.
I think he is musically the best rapper in his style (boom bap and boom bap akin). I don't know another rapper who raps in his style with as much detail and subtlety. 90s-early 2000s eminem's flow is good but he forces it a lot and gets over the top. Pharoahe monch gets boring. BIG kept it much simpler. DMX gets too over the top. Busta rhymes, Sheik louch, El-p, 50 cent, etc are good but I don't know if they're quite as good. Other NY rappers like Nas and Wu tang don't put as much detail into their flow I feel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-ViBZKfF5M
>>60932347
yeah, no.
>>60930260
His lyricism is either average or below it, especially past his first two albums there's a dip in lyrics and concepts. His flow is average. Can't tell stories that well.
The only thing he really has going for him is he's got a fantastic ear for beats and the connections to have the best available for him.
Reasonable Doubt is a great album though.
>>60930471
His flow after the first two albums (he was never pharoahe monch but he had a good variety of flow) never changed. Not that it needed to as it was good, just not >one of a kind.
>>60933052
20 Bag Shorty is an amazing track, I've played it over and over again so many times.
Great use of enunciation.
>>60933436
Really?
I'd say it changed, bot necessarily for the better but it did change.
After Vol 1 his slow flow became more prominent, and then then there was the whisper flow era and his bp3-wtt flow.
>>60933052
>Pharoahe monch gets boring
only in his solo work. Jay never came close to Pharoahe Monch's flow on the first two organized konfusion albums.
when did anyone give a shit about this guy in the mainstream? his two most popular songs are collaborations, hell they're barely even that, he's just featured in other people's songs
>>60933464
It changed in the same sense that, say, Rakim's did. His voice an intensity changed but overall there weren't any massive differences or anything that's exactly unique (Ra's was unique at one time though). His Reasonable Doubt flow where he goes slow, can be upbeat or even go double time was the best he ever got flow wise.
>>60933391
>His lyricism is either average or below it, especially past his first two albums there's a dip in lyrics and concepts. His flow is average. Can't tell stories that well.
Look at the song above you and tell me that flow average, listen to Reasonable Doubt and tell me it isn't a distinct original flow that only Jay Z can do.
Have you heard Can't Knock The Hustle? every rapper should listen to that song if they want an example of how not to ride a beat, but to meld your voice into it and essentially become another instrument.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frIA7tuBqqY
This is average flow?
This is average storytelling?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5g8G5mqSdI
It's one of the best hip hop songs of all time.
Jay Z doesn't do many storytelling tracks but when he does they're excellent. Most examples of storytelling from him are verses on non storytelling songs that you'd have to pick up on your own.
American Gangster disproves a dip and lyrics and concepts, Blueprint had song's Lyrical Exercise and Blueprint, TBA had December 4th and Allure among other songs.
And if you believe Jay Z doesn't have above average lyricism it's because you don't listen to music, just skim through it.
He's not really focused on multi-syllable rhyming like say Nas or Eminem (though he's also skilled in that) but more on entendre's and other literary techniques, clever stuff.
I'll be back with examples.
>>60933524
Are you serious?
He was one of the artists that helped fill the void after Biggie's death, rose to prominence with Vol 2, continued being successful and beefed with Nas which shined a big light on himself, dropped The Blueprint which confirmed Jay Z as the current king of rap, and then went out with a bang on The Black Album where he sold out Madison Square Garden in under ten minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFcDFzac0z4
>>60933531
I see what you're saying.
I still think he has a large variety of flows though.
>>60933052
El-p is a completely different rapper than hov. El-p is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, abstract mc's of all time. His ability to mask every line as something its not while still telling a coherent story or just keeping a song topically focused is unparralelled. Jay-z is much more subtle in his cleverness, almost in the exact opposite way. While el masks his meaning with abstraction and uncovential use of colloquiums and phrasing, Jay allows you to immediately understand every line while simultaneously hidding double entendre and clever wordplay right under your nose.
50 cent isn't really a lyricist, just a hook master.
>>60934019
“symbolic and literal…nakedly obvious and subliminally effective at the same time.”
That's actually how Jay Z describes rap in his book Decoded.
>>60934019
>of the greatest, if not the greatest, abstract mc's of all time. His ability to mask every line as something its not while still telling a coherent story or just keeping a song topically focused is unparralelled. Jay-z is much more subtle in his cleverness, almost in the exact opposite way. While el masks his meaning with abstraction and uncovential use of colloquiums and phrasing, Jay allows you to immediately understand every line while simultaneously hidding double entendre and clever wordplay right under your nose.
>50 cent isn't really a lyricist, just a hook master.
i'm talking about flow. He has a similarly syncopated flow on a lot of his music. same with 50 cent.
>>60934019
Do you think his song writing is unique?
>>60933633
On flow see
>>60933531
He had a very unique flow on his first two albums, not necessarily one of a kind. As I said others can flow like him and had before his debut, I mean, if you can't hear the blatant Big L influence you're insane. Even in the video you posted it's mostly just double time. He's got a good flow, but he wouldn't make a top ten list.
On lyricism, even story telling his first two albums are passable/good, after that even his wordplay (his best attribute) isn't exactly clever half the time.
He has above average lyricism for a mainstream rapper, hell, he's top tier for a mainstream rapper but he's not THAT good past his early stuff. The fact you used Lyrical Exercise, Blueprint an Allure as examples of high lyricism/concepts is telling. They aren't bad songs but they're pretty standard Jay Z fair.
He's like Eminem in that he's very much a great rapper (in different ways, eminem honestly has shown he's on his level when it comes to wordplay but that's Jay's style not Em's) but he's overall not as good as his fanboys say he is.
>>60934888
Big L influence on his flow?
Jay Z's biggest influence flow wise is Jaz-O, the rest I'm sure he got from either Rakim or Nas (Nas more on the conversational flow even though I still think they have distinct styles).
But Big L? I've listened to Lifestyle of Da Poor and Dangerous so many times and I just can't see it.
Any similarities have to be incidental, and even if they're there Big L isn't nearly as good of a rapper as Jay Z.
Tell me what's an example of above average lyricism for you?
Jay-Z is the most casually clever and intricate lyricist in at least mainstream rap that I've ever seen.
>>60935034
Listen to Big L's freestyles and you can see where the double time flow comes from. At least, imo. I know he took a lot more of his flow from Rakim, everyone did. Jaz-O is a definite influence flow wise.
>Jay-Z is the most casually clever and intricate lyricist in at least mainstream rap that I've ever seen.
This is 100% true, not necessarily on the intricate side, and Jay Z doesn't say much that goes over your head but he's got that casual wit down pat. Like, you'd never have to think about
>You can pay for school but you can’t buy class
as it clicks right away but it's still witty enough, in the mainstream Lupe would've given comp if he didn't fall off after two albums and Kendrick is easily up there now. That being said no one does that casual wit with the, I fucking hate using this word, swagger Jay Z does. MF DOOM's got him beat on wordplay though. Chino XL simultaneously has the best wordplay in Hip hop but also the worst. Royce Da 5'9 can get pretty clever. Also, Vakill is pretty GOAT. GZA as well.
>Don't let the drama getcha
>In the only genre of music where the fans shoot the messenger
>Bitch niggas talk behind your back like a catcher
>Either M-Y-O-B or B-Y-O stretcher
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtghWVPOsoI
Shit song, but
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJOsjP33nF4
>Don't it make sense, these shell casings is just like a bag of paper
>Dropped in the lap of a tax evader (Homie, they spent)
>this entire fucking song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olVPXpGohII
>kingpin just castled with his rook and lost a pawn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyUkBSxVV50
>Undeserved
I've never seen a rapper degrade as hard as Jay-Z and still retain popularity.
Like, yeah, rappers have fallen harder, but they also lost a fuckton in the process.
>>60935576
Him and Eminem I'd say are the clearest examples. Eminem literally released Encore, Relapse and Recovery one after another and still has a career.
>>60935576
Yah he fell off betwen RD and TBA?
Wait no.
He fell off after AG?
After WTT?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7q8xhsCaL8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljIEAbUxVX8
>>60935724
>After WTT
that album was painfully average, as was AG. RD is his best album, with the BP behind it. TBA is overrated. Jay Z never fell off so much as he declined in quality slowly over his career.
>>60935537
Jay Z's double time flow DOES NOT originate from Big L.
Jay Z used to do the fast rap before Busta Rhymes in highschool and then he was mentored by Jaz-O who originated it hence Jay Z and Jaz's group being called the Originators.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1thvEtGM5M
I mean you've heard the entendres on D'evils so there's no use pointing them out but:
"Throughout my junior high years it was all friendly
But now this higher learning got the Remy in me
Liquors invaded my kidneys
Got me ready to lick off, mama forgive me
I can't be held accountable, D'Evils beating me down, boo
Got me running with guys, making G's, telling lies that sound true
Come test me, I never cower
For the love of money, son, I'm giving lead showers
Stop screaming, you know the demon said it's best to die
And even if Jehovah witness, bet he'll never testify, D'Evils..."
Triple entendre: "junior high school years to higher learing, "higher learning" the movie, Remy the crazy Skinhead from the movie, Remy Martin the liquor, the "Remy" (liquor) in him invadin' his kidneys...the crazy white boy "Remy" in Jay that's got him ready to "lick off" at whoever just like Remy did in the movie."
And the Jehova's witness line refrences his nickname as Jayhova, and god himself witnessing his crimes.
And you know the money makes cents, rubber, buildings part of the second verse.
And then there's this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObUzFn2HyyE
Pay attention to his verse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6y19dU9A7A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTntnTBjOLs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tqOIYAuvaw
Read the rap genius for these verses.
>>60935724
he only puts effort in thesedays if he knows there's a chance the artist he's rapping alongside will make him look bad
>>60936049
"For example, on a song from his “American Gangster” album, he says: "I’m a K-I-double-L-E-R/See y’all in hell, shoot [n-word] straight through the E-R."
At first glance, one would think that Jay-Z is simply saying: “I’m a killer and I don’t care. I’ll shoot you in the emergency room” and yes, he is saying this. At the same time however, this song is about people only respecting him and call him (as he says in the song) “the greatest writer of the twentieth century” when he writes about sex, drugs, and violence, but whenever he writes something “thought-provokin’,” people say he has lost his edge. To that end, when he says “shoot [n-word] straight through the E-R,” this is also be a double entendre referring to the usage of the n-word with the “a” at the end versus the “er”; the former being seen by some in the black community as a term of endearment while the latter being seen by many blacks as a derogatory term used by white racists."
>>60928940
macklemore, for real
>>60932347
>tfw all rapper beef is just childish nonsense.
>>60935944
Wtt was average yes, but there was still solid rapping from Jay Z on it, Murder To Excellence, Who Gon Stop Me, Gotta Have It?
""Buellar had a Muller but I switched it for a Mille 'cause I'm richer, and prior to this **** was moving freebase."
1. Franck Muller watch
2. Richard Mille watch, which he's pronouncing as "milli" 'cause he's richer
3. Richer, which he's pronouncing as Richard
4. Prior, which he's pronouncing as Pryor
5. Richard Pryor starred in a movie called 'Moving' in 1988 and also suffered severe burns in 1980 while freebasing cocaine."
Not bad at all especially for someone who's been in the rap game for over 20 years.
When's the last time you listened to American Gangster?
His rapping is average on it?
Honestly i'd say it has some of the cleverest lyricism and songwriting I've seen from Jay Z and rap in general.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHVihXRCfAE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qPDDyL3sOc
"Survive the droughts, I wish you well - hold up
Survive the droughts? I wish you well?
How sick am I? I wish you health
I wish you wheels, I wish you wealth
I wish you insight so you could see for yourself
You could see the signs when the jackers is scheming
And the cops is coming, you could read they mind
You could see from behind, you could redefine
The game as we know it, one dream at a time
I'm American dreamin"
"The repeated lines echo (like words shouted down a well) and have two meanings: the well is a place to literally store and draw water, helpful in a drought. In a less literal drought, a well is a stash of money/supplies/wits that can be drawn from in times of need. Jay is wishing other dealers well by advising them to have a “well”
And there's much more than that.
I'll do a second post on TBA.
"Young niggas that blast for me, no religion"
-Dear Summer
"Triple entendre and employs a heterograph
1. Jay has young men that will shoot you for him.
2. Jay has rappers/haters that try to shoot him.
3. Blasphemy. One of Jay-z’s infamous nicknames is Hov, as in jeyhova. He is sayin that a lot of young people think that jay-z is the god of rap. This is blasphemy because in the christian religion there is only one God
On Jay-Z “Hot 97 Dear Summer Freestyle” version he adds
Young niggas that blast for me/blasphemy no religion"
They say "they never really miss you til you dead or you gone"
So on that note, I'm leaving after the song
So you ain't gotta feel no way about Jay so long
At least let me tell you why I'm this way, hold on
I was conceived by Gloria Carter and Adnes Reeves
Who made love under the sycamore tree, which makes me
A more sicker M.C. and my momma would claim
At 10 pounds, when I was born I didn't give her no pain
Although through the years I gave her her fair share
I gave her her first real scare
I made up for birth when I got here
She knows my purpose wasn't purpose
I ain't perfect, I care
But I feel worthless cause my shirts wasn't matching my gear
Now I'm just scratching the surface cause what's buried under there
Was a kid torn apart once his pop disappeared
I went to school, got good grades, could behave when I wanted
But I had demons deep inside that would raise when confronted
>>60936084
>>60936049
You got me on the flow thing, but I will say Jay and Jaz-O didn't originate double time. Shit originated in the midwest in the late 80s. That double time flow they use came from the chopper style in the midwest.
>muh entendres
I've heard this before, but I can't remember where. Maybe it's a common Jay Z fan thing.
That triple entendre line was one of the worst he's ever said mostly because, while he's done it in the past, (specifically on D'Evils which is legit one of if not his best song imo) in that specific instance it was a homophone.
Here's some actual triple entendres he's said
>I don’t half-step on the ‘caine
and
>I can run it back nigga cause I’m straight with the Roc
Here's eminem doing it in a really bad song on a really bad album (minus stay wide awake, arguably 3 am and beautiful)
>I’m the big shot, get it, dick-snots?
>You’re just small pokes, little pricks
This is a fairly common thing in rap, so much so that Rhyme Asylum's entire gimmick centres around double and triple entendres. Again, Jay Z's not bad, but there are a whole mass of rappers who are better in a whole host of ways. There are rappers who do wordplay better than he does but he's still pretty good with it, he's probably the best mainstream artist when it comes to wordplay alone and beat selection although, again, Eminem is no slouch in wordplay either. In fact, while he can't write a song anymore and he's never had much good production Eminem's wordplay game has only gotten better.
jayz is literally a 0.5-1.0/5.0 on my RYM
you can tell no one on mu actually listens to hiphop
>>60937669
Indulge us, backpacker
