Is this the logical conclusion to music as an art form?
is this the logical conclusion to disinfo plebs
stop talking about this fucking album
>>60698594
Yes. Only plebs will disagree.
It's objectively the best album of all time.
>>60698594
wut album is it? what genre?
>>60699027
onkyokei
>>60699027
"Good Morning Good Night" by Otomo Yoshihide, Sachiko M and Toshimaru Nakamura.
It's a notoriously difficult onkyo album — basically silence, rustling and high-pitched sounds for two hours.
>>60699027
lowercase
>>60699116
oh. ill just not check it out then if thats alright with you guys
>>60699116
what is the appeal of this. not trying to be inciteful. I enjoy music for feels, and I dig experimentation. but just why
>>60699253
because fuck your whore mom thats why bitch
>>60698594
>>60698615
>>60698616
>>60698664
>>60698826
>>60699027
>>60699045
>>60699116
>>60699176
>>60699178
>>60699253
>>60699271
the sine waves signifies the lack of reality. low frequencies signifies loss of importance of the self. if you believe communism capitalism god etc or if you are living to get a new car or for the tv show you gonna watch tomorrow dont listen to this record. you cant appreciate this recording or you gonna pretend due to its popularity.
>>60699253
>I enjoy music for feels
Obviously, you're not the target audience for this.
this album killed my amp
>>60699253
it's about appreciating the physical textures of sound than musical structure. it can be very relaxing if it's good. don't start with GMGN because it's garbage, listen to soundchambers by ekkehard ehlers/joseph suchy/franz hautzinger or rien by noel akchote.
>>60699374
>don't start with GMGN because it's garbage
>because it's garbage
how could it possibly be garbage
>>60699389
the pacing makes me jumpy and uncomfortable and the sine waves fuck with my tinnitus. an absolute joke of an album.
>>60699423
sounds like problems on your end that make you personally not like it, but do not make the album itself garbage in any sense
>>60699443
i suppose so. i remember it getting better like 3/4s into the album and then i just lost interest completely. whatever.
>>60699253
Honestly? I'm into lowercase and onkyo and even I don't know.
Part of the appeal lowercase music has to me is how zen, minimal and quiet it sounds; another big part of it is the way each sound influences the way you hear the silence before and after it instead of the other notes, it relies a lot on suggestion and has a certain elegance.
But onkyo seems like a perverted version of it — the quiet sounds are replaced by harsh electronic ones. People say onkyo is about the sounds and textures themselves but I don't hear it. Acoustic instruments have beautiful sounds. Some everyday sounds are beautiful. Onkyo sounds are harsh and sterile, they're about the least beautiful and interesting you could get... And yet I like some of it — not all but some of it. I don't know why. Maybe because it has some of the appeal of lowercase and some of the appeal of glitch (finding purpose to the errors and sounds that "shouldn't exist").
(I'll read replies tomorrow if there are any, going to bed now.)
>>60699253
It honestly wasn't that bad, it wasn't incredible though. Was interesting to listen to for sure.
>>60699351
HOLY SHIT THIS MY THIRD EYE IS OPENIN AS WE SPEAK
>>60699954
>thinking onkyo doesn't have tons of acoustic work
Is GMGN the only onkyo you've heard? Listen to Quartet.
>>60699253
>what is the appeal of this
Inaccessibility-"avant" appeal. Nothing more, nothing less.
EAI is filled with hacks. It's why artists in the genre can release 100s of albums, since making that garbage takes no skill, effort, or talent.
>>60701473
Actually it does require talent and effort, but it doesn't have le catchy melodies so you are too stupid to understand it.
>>60698594
It's the ultimate pleb filter. If someone hates this album and say it isn't music, then I know to discard their opinions on music because they obviously are musically deficient and not to be trusted.
>>60701473
> It's why artists in the genre can release 100s of albums
care to post an example of this?
The most prolific artist in this area I can think of is Toshimaru Nakamura, but so many of his collaborations are with others and quite a few are more traditional noise releases rather than EAI or onkyo
>>60701656
albums are collaborations*
oops
>>60701656
Nakamura is pretty consistent for the most part too, out of the 30 or so releases I've heard from him there was only a few I didn't care for.
>>60699253
I did not like this album until I read Pitchfork's glowing review of it, comparing it to the ambient sounds of an ordinary day. That review turned around my entire understanding of music, and this album shot from hated-it to loved-it in a moment.
A lot of people would say that this is not music. Maybe it isn't. If you know what music is, and you put this on expecting music, you will be sorely disappointed. But worse, you will miss out on a profound piece of art.
This album is not difficult, not in the ordinary way. You don't need any special training to hear the subtle intricacies. But you do need to know how to let go, let what you are hearing be what it is. Maybe that does take special training,
>>60701589
Yeah, a subtly changing test tone played over barely inaudible turntable noise is really is the zenith of effort and talent.
You're the stupid one here, I'm afraid. You've bought into the conceptual idea of this album and albums/art like it, that you'll justify wasting your time listening to 2khz test tones and convincing yourself it's something interesting because the "artist" primed you into accepting any aesthetic decision they might make if it fits with their concept.
It's lazy. And an artistic cop out.
"You don't just don't get it! I'm challenging the idea of what music is!" Or we can read awful reviews of this GM/GN that describe it as allegory of the passage of time. Lol.
It's a Rauschenberg painting in music form. That's it.
>>60701708
same here
>>60701831
Yeah you clearly just proved don't understand it at all. It's okay, most people don't get this album/genre at all, I wouldn't expect you to either.
>>60701890
why exactly do you think he doesn't understand it?
>>60701890
Nice rebuttal. I get the genre perfectly.
It's why you have no reply, because I'm right. Now you're free to enjoy this aesthetic all you want, but I think it's conceptual hackery and people you think they're cultivated aesthetes for listening to this shit are even bigger clowns than the artists who make it.
>>60701955
He grossly oversimplifies it, and doesn't seem to understand what the musicians are doing. They are playing off each others actions improvising and doing a great job of it, he just makes it sound like they are randomly making sounds without even trying.
>>60701984
>people you
*people who
>>60701955
Because he doesn't like it and thinks it has no merit, when it clearly does.
>>60701831
I'm not anyone you've replied to, but I thought I'd respond.
I don't agree with the people that try to defend a lot of improvised music as taking just as much talent as other forms of music. Part of improvised music ( at least free improv and its offshoots) is that it allows for amateur technical skill, and sometimes even values it for its ability to bring about different circumstances and challenges than complete mastery of your instrument might otherwise limit.
no-input samplers or trying to control test tones presents certain challenges that aren't present with other instruments. You're certainly entitled to disagree conceptually with the artists, but that's part of it being experimental and exploratory. It won't always work.
However, there is a lot of music out there that falls under the same umbrella of EAI and Onkyo. This is but one album among a diverse soundscape. Have you listened to any other albums in this area besides GM/GN?
>>60701831
Actually, minimalist painting was a reaction to the idea of expressionism, in that it wanted to provoke industrial and cold themes in the art. It was basically trying to go against what art was doing at the time. So that doesnt necessarily work as an example. Alot of painting and visual art is based on movements and the like more than anything.
>>60701831
What's wrong with that painting? Sure it's simple but it looks nice so who gives a shit?
>>60701831
I'm going to take a wild guess here and say you play guitar shittily and it's convinced you that you are some authority about art. There's probably a better chance that you literally have a perfect understanding of the totality of music than that maybe there are things you don't get, right.
>>60702008
>They are playing off each others actions improvising and doing a great job of it, he just makes it sound like they are randomly making sounds without even trying.
No. I know what they're doing. They have a conceptual anchor and improvise around that idea of minimalism/quiet/understated (if it was "true" improvisation, you'd get a lot more variety of sounds, volumes, and instruments). And the fact it is improvised makes it even lazier in execution.
Test tones, turntable noise, and feedback from mixing boards isn't interesting/and or annoying to listen to, no matter how it's improvised. It's about as interesting as look at 2 straight lines on on a white canvas.
In additional to that, artists in ambient music have employed those sounds in a much more clever way than Onkyo hacks.
>>60702186
>if it was "true" improvisation, you'd get a lot more variety of sounds, volumes, and instruments
As if you're a judge for what's true and what isn't
>>60702186
that first paragraph proves you haven't listened to much. There IS a lot of variety of sounds, volumes and instruments.
I don't see how you are okay with generalizing like this without having listened to much.
What is typically labelled "free improvisation" is even more mired in jazz instrumentation and consistently loud volume than eai/onkyo is in quiet volume and odd instrumentation.
you know those performance art dealios where a group of people hit house hold objects, scream, break glass, etc. randomly? this reminds me of that sorta improv, but with electronics instead of cheese graters and buckets
>>60702186
It is far more varied then most improvised music, EAI musicians use a large variety of sounds and instruments/ non instruments to create their sounds. >>60702186
>In additional to that, artists in ambient music have employed those sounds in a much more clever way than Onkyo hacks.
I like some Ambient but it is usually far less interesting then what the best EAI musicians are doing nowadays though, more simple and not as much variety or fun in the sounds overall.
>>60698594
it's just dumb pop music
>>60702043
Robert R. came from a different perspective, though.
>In 1951 Rauschenberg created his "White Paintings," in the tradition of monochromatic painting, whose purpose was to reduce painting to its most essential nature, and to subsequently lead to the possibility of pure experience.
That is essentially the core conceptual idea that drives Onkyokei and other hyper-minimal forms of art.
I take issue with a lot of the work done in ths form (and other experimental forms) because it seems all too often that the artists in question mask their lack of talent/technical skill/creativity behind conceptual pretense.
There are exceptions, of course, and some artists have a conceptual period that they "must" do (like Robert R., DuChamp, etc), but I don't just don't like the idea that ANY aesthetic choice can be justified if it fits with a concept.
"Oh, once you understand it, you'll love it! Read up on his ideas."
I think that's a lazy cop out.
Now, test tones and such might appeal to you. Fair enough. But most fans of this shit weren't listening to tone generators and turntable styluses scratching a naked platter before some Onkyo performer presented it to them in a cute concept that makes one feel real smart for "challenging" themselves with this material.
>>60702389
what do you listen to?
>>60702487
nothing
>>60702505
patrcian af
mirin
>>60702474
>mask their lack of talent/technical skill/creativity behind conceptual pretense
examples? who is being dishonest and trying to hide their shortcomings? many of the musicians in this area studied music in university.
>"Oh, once you understand it, you'll love it! Read up on his ideas."
what music in this area resorts to that? care to point out any examples?
>>60702033
>However, there is a lot of music out there that falls under the same umbrella of EAI and Onkyo.
>>60702262
>that first paragraph proves you haven't listened to much. There IS a lot of variety of sounds, volumes and instruments.
You guys are right in that I'm being too general. I'm generalizing this particular minimal form of Onkyo/No Input.
>>60702592
No Input isn't a genre, and you're applying a criticism of one album to a genre that encompasses more styles than this album represents. Yes, that's being too general.
>>60702564
>examples? who is being dishonest and trying to hide their shortcomings? many of the musicians in this area studied music in university.
A lot of musicians in this area also didn't study music and studied "art."
I don't know their interior thoughts, obviously, but that's the way their projects come off to me. And the history of conceptual art in general is littered with idea>aesthetic hackery. Not saying that art can't have ideas, but there's a certain extreme of conceptual art that jettisons all aesthetic in service of the "idea."
"You're too plebbbbb to appreciate ideas in art!!"
No. I just think that literature, film, and philosophy are much better mediums for ideas. Conceptual artists always come off to me as bad philosophers trying their hand at some art, which they are also bad at (dilettantes).
>>60702755
>I don't know their interior thoughts, obviously, but that's the way their projects come off to me.
can you point out some artists/albums that come off this way besides GMGN? I understand where your criticisms are coming from, but I don't think it really applies here.
>Conceptual artists always come off to me as bad philosophers trying their hand at some art, which they are also bad at (dilettantes).
I agree. Onkyo is anti-conceptual for one, and even EAI is far less conceptual than a lot of contemporary composition.
Again, I understand where your criticisms are coming from but unless you can provide some concrete examples your arguments are just going to come off as vague feelings bolstered by ignorance.
>>60702755
Aesthetic appreciation can derive from concepts themselves.
Aesthetic appreciation is also completely subjective.
Why can't we just listen to EAI in peace and not argue about it
As for GMGN, it's not the pinnacle of its genre by any means. Try Toshimaru Nakemura's works if you want to get into onkyo, and if you want EAI in general I'd recommend the album "Too Beautiful To Burn" by Martin Siewert and some other guy whose name I consistently forget
>>60702915
martin brandlmayr
>Why can't we just listen to EAI in peace and not argue about it
because there's a lot to argue about? it would be a far less interesting area of music if everyone just took it at face value and didn't question it.
>>60702807
Remember, I'm criticizing a particular style of, I guess not just Onkyo music, but any music that seems more concept than music. I admit I was far too general out of my dislike for GM/GN which has come to kind of symbolize the scene for better or worse.
>Concrete examples
So material like I Am Sitting In a Room, Fluxus, and the various Sachiko M projects would qualify. I even gave her collab with Sakamoto a shot, since I'm a big of his work, but I was disappointed since he follow more her style rather than mixing his with hers in equal parts.
>>60702958
I'm not saying we should discuss is, but we shouldn't pointlessly bicker about if it's pretentious or meaningless or not
I'm all up for productive discussion
>>60703013
*not discuss it
Damn how did I fuck that up
General Onkyo/EAI discussion anyone? What is the worst release you have heard of this style? This one is in the bottom 5, the first disc is a steaming pile of horse shit and the second disc is pretty sterile as well.
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/raku_sugifatti/futatsu/
>>60702904
>Aesthetic appreciation is also completely subjective.
Of course. I would want it no other way.
I want material like GM/GN to exist even though I think it's shit.
You're also right about concepts being inherently aesthetic, I just feel like other mediums give ideas more aesthetic justice so to speak
>>60702994
>Remember, I'm criticizing a particular style of, I guess not just Onkyo music, but any music that seems more concept than music.
ok, but you haven't backed up the relation between that criticism and this music.
>So material like I Am Sitting In a Room, Fluxus, and the various Sachiko M projects would qualify
the fluxus people aren't related much at all to onkyo and eai. I don't find Sachiko M's solo works very compelling - I've heard some people laud them for their sonic character on a speaker system (sine wave character changing as you position your head differently), but that's not very engaging to me. Have you listened to her collabs with others besides Sakamoto? I enjoyed that one, but I think her strongest work is her duos with Toshimaru Nakamura and the erstlive 005 disc.
>but I was disappointed since he follow more her style rather than mixing his with hers in equal parts.
I think you'll find, if you ever listen to more of the music she's been involved in, that many of her collaborators defer to her presence. I'm not sure why you immediately dismiss that, and I think it makes for some interesting exchanges, particularly on that same erstlive 005 disc. Having musicians who are normally quite active (Rowe, Yoshihide, Nakamura) defer to the singular presence of Sachiko M opened up a new dynamic that I haven't really heard between those musicians and other collaborators.
>>60703068
I quite liked that actually. I'm not fond of the whole excessive use of silence to build tension and the interplay between stasis and progression that it implies, but that worked better than anything else in that area I've heard.
>>60703013
>I'm all up for productive discussion.
me too. I'm trying to contribute to that :^)
>>60703068
This release is maybe the worst I've heard of the style, boring conceptual trash with no interesting sounds to back it up. The album where they are crying the whole time:
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/mattin_taku_unami/distributing_vulnerability_to_the_affective_classes/
is apparently worse, but I never listened to it.
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/mattin_taku_unami/attention/
>>60703093
>ok, but you haven't backed up the relation between that criticism and this music.
I didn't? Again, my criticism doesn't deal with this music across the board, just certain styles of it (the Sachiko M style and some of the works of Nakamura) that seem to prioritize the "idea/concept" of WHY or HOW this music is made rather than WHAT is made.
Sure, interesting sounds and textures can be created, but a lot that style comes off to me as a relying of the novelty of it being created using objects that are not considered instruments.
That idea might've been profound and innovative in Cage's time, but it's no longer a revelation. I don't care about your means if I don't like your sound choices (Sachiko M's sine wave).
Maybe we can blame the critics here, who seem to naval gaze at this kind of stuff (or fans of it who consider anyone who doesn't like it of "not getting it") when it really should be taken a face value. From what I've read on Sachiko, she just seems like a girl who likes playing around with sine waves.
So perhaps the critics and fans erected a concept around this music where it doesn't exist?
>>60703450
>So perhaps the critics and fans erected a concept around this music where it doesn't exist?
>I didn't? Again, my criticism doesn't deal with this music across the board, just certain styles of it (the Sachiko M style and some of the works of Nakamura) that seem to prioritize the "idea/concept" of WHY or HOW this music is made rather than WHAT is made.
I think you're getting somewhere now!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqfGbtqDVDk
Here's Nakamura basically saying the opposite of what you've attributed to him. I wouldn't formulate your opinions around what you've seen on /mu/. Listening is valuable too - forming opinions around a few albums will always lead to misunderstanding.
>>60703510
>Here's Nakamura basically saying the opposite of what you've attributed to him.
Yeah, a lot of artists in this style seem to just enjoy sound for what it is and playing around with it with an almost childlike curiosity. I like that idea (doesn't mean I'll like all their work. Sachiko's test tones will never appeal to me), and I've always thought of them more as sound sculptors rather than musicians.
So yes, the critics/fan bases, more so the critics, have over intellectualized it, which in understandable since they need to write about something.
You can have the last word. Good conversation.
