Opinions on their magnum opus, masterpiece, future classic etc
It's proactive I'll give them that. Only time will tell how it will age
shit
only youngfags who never set soundcard irq settings in dos will be impressed with this midi SHIT
>>60480360
Um, well it clearly won't be a considered a masterpiece or magnum opus by anyone other than HHH, or I guess you, OP.
But the good parts of it are legitimately amazing and inspiring. The idea of combining black metal drumming and guitars with electronic processing, horns, keys and rap/chanting vocals in song structures similar to most of swan's work is pretty new. I think they get it right for most of the record. Quetzacoatl and Vitriol are iffy, father vorizen is shit, but other than that I don't really think they make a lot of mistakes. It's good stuff.
>>60482406
This (though I disagree with Quetzalcoatl being iffy) it's a legitimately great album with some interesting ideas, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have used more polished. That said I do think it'll be more fondly received in the future than it is now with a generation who isn't as associated with their stigma.
>>60480360
I feel like all the high pitched electronic sounds have no relation to the guitars or drums half the time. It's just like listening to a band play and a different band that does drone music play at the same time.
>>60484520
It only seems that way because of the sharp contrast in sound and style, musically it actually fits together beautifully
>>60482406
>Um, well it clearly won't be a considered a masterpiece or magnum opus by anyone other than HHH, or I guess you, OP.
Yeah, but come on, the popular music canon is essentially fucked beyond repair at this point. That doesn't mean anything.
The album itself is madly fun avant-garde rock. I think that the ideological aims of HHH's music have a tendency to get silly at times, but the actual music is always riff-focused, urgent, and joyful. It's really bizarre. I actually think that The Ark Work is the closest thing we've seen to vaporwave black metal.
>>60485259
>vaporwave black metal.
Sunn O))) - Cursed Realm of the Winterdemons
>>60480360
It's great. I'm really surprised Scaruffi didn't like it, he's so jaded now.
>>60482406
>The idea of combining black metal drumming and guitars with electronic processing, horns, keys and rap/chanting vocals in song structures similar to most of swan's work is pretty new
No, it's not new.
Mayhem did most of that 15 years ago. Fucking Mayhem. Some of the guys who defined Black Metal, and they did it when Black Metal as a genre was barely as old as you are now, back when it had just come up with its own mythologies and history.
And the result was very polarizing as well, the big difference being that Mayhem wasn't trying to make Black Metal a relic of the past, they were trying to update and improve its sound. HHH, however, is carving chunks out of Black Metal's still healthy body, and using them to fuel his own little meme machine, because he mistakenly thinks that Black Metal is practically dead and that it's time to move on.
Let's not get confused, HHH never claimed that Transcendental Black Metal was "the future of BM", he said that it was a more viable ALTERNATIVE to BM, which is already a thing of the past according to him.
The big irony here is that his albums don't introduce any radically new. But, because he framed them in a modernist context, based on the idea of transcendence rather than on the idea of revitalization, people latch onto the unusual features of his music and are prompt to call them "groundbreaking" and "amazing" even though none of them are really new. All that because it PRESENTS ITSELF as something new. And even more ironic is the fact that HHH REGRETS doing all that stuff because he feels that it detracts people from the genuine merits of his music; either because they think it's pretentious rubbish, or because they think it's more original and ambitious than it really is.
>>60485140
if you mean composition-wise then sure, most of it is well-composed.
But man, let an orchestra play that shit, not a rock band.
>>60485259
It's not riff-focused in any relevant sense of the word.
HHH's approach of musical repetition isn't anything like that of most rock music (even though you can find several BM records with a similar technique), he's allegedly trying to imitate Wagner's compositions, where leitmotifs can vary in length and play style, can be repeated sections of a previous melody, can come back at any point in the whole piece, and can be more than two bars of melody, they can be a chord progression, a rhythmic pattern, an entire theme, or even a couple of notes.
And because he focuses on recycling a small number of musical ideas into as many forms as possible, he isn't really concerned with catchiness. WHICH IS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT EVERY RIFFSMITH DOES.
>>60480360
I really like The Ark Work, are there similar ones to this? The Aesthetica didn't do much for me.
>>60488525
What did you like about it exactly?
>>60487357
I listened to this album for the first time yesterday and I was blown away how much it sounds like modern black metal. Structure, riffing style, production, just about everything. Very underrated
>>60488622
it's one of the albums that pioneered industrial black metal, eventually the production style and some of its other features trickled down from that genre into the rest of black metal.
>midi trumpets and orchestra
>terrible mixing
'no'
it's alright though
>>60488525
try his other band Survival
>>60487357
listening to this now and meh, not nearly as interesting as TAW
if you can post something that actually sounds like TAW maybe I'll believe you
>>60487413
>But man, let an orchestra play that shit, not a rock band.
plebs everyone!
>>60488525
depends on why you didn't like Aes
>>60488622
it's one of the albums that pioneered industrial black metal, eventually the production style and some of its other features trickled down from that genre into the rest of black metal. All that's stuff been digested and assimilated by the BM community years ago, and now HHH is offering us basically the same thing under a happier, glitzier packaging and hipster are eating it up like it's the second coming of O1o1oN
>>60488707
You mean something that sounds like The Grand Declaration of War but soft and cheerful?
>>60488756
I want something that sounds like The Ark Work which combines medieval+renaissance music with rock and additive minimalist music
bagpipes and trumpet fanfares would be welcome as well
>>60487413
See that's what I see as part of the genius of it though. It could've been a beautiful orchestral composition, but instead they used midi instruments and electric guitars, contrasting the two in an incredibly unexpected and brilliant way
>>60488678
See the problem isn't that it's midi trumpets and orchestra. Some of the most famous and renowned Symphonic BM bands use those profusely. The real difference is that they do it because they can't hire an actual orchestra, and because they're convinced that their compositions are solid and heartfelt enough to transcend the cheap sound of digital instrumentation, and be received as legitimate symphonic music by the listeners. And usually that's exactly what happens, the music is so genuine and moving that you don't give a shit if it's all done on a computer.
The Ark Work is different because it's composed and mixed in such a way as to make you aware of the fact that those instruments are fake. It breaks immersion like crazy.
And on some other projects (let's take the Thorns/Emperor split) that approach actually contributes to creating an atmosphere and to immerse you into it, usually some kind of psychedelic gothic space opera thing, but in the case of The Ark Work it mostly just evokes visions of HHH fucking around with Ableton wearing his big Liam Pomfret glasses on his little nose.
>>60488798
It's not brilliant. It's dysfunctional. It's a failure. The two don't contrast elegantly and complementarily, they clash in a garish manner.
>>60488906
>And usually that's exactly what happens, the music is so genuine and moving that you don't give a shit if it's all done on a computer.
I have never heard symphonic metal of any kind that I have taken as seriously as classical music. TAW comes close.
>>60487357
also this
>>60488948
that's just because you're impressed by the technicality of it more than by its emotional power and wrongfully believe that classical music is about technicality.
if that's the case then you're enjoying it wrong, because HHH says it's all about feelings, not about his talent as a composer.
>>60488975
this one's older though
>>60488975
listened to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY08AFfzJKk
it's definitely better but idk, it doesn't strike me as particularly symphonic. is it symphonic to do basic species counterpoint? I don't think it is
>>60489023
>that's just because you're impressed by the technicality of it more than by its emotional power and wrongfully believe that classical music is about technicality.
hmmmmmm I'm not sure where you get that from. I like the atmosphere and "otherworldliness" and exuberance of the music HHH borrows from. Monteverdi overtures and organum. I wouldn't like the music if it doesn't resonate with me on an emotional level
I've never once forced myself to like anything because it's technical.
like listen to this: https://youtu.be/0mD16EVxNOM?t=41
tell me that isn't the horn parts on TAW
I'm not saying it's great because it sounds like those, but it's great because that ultimate rejoicing in tonality, that primitive sense of "D MAJOR! WOOO" that's what's so fucking emotionally powerful. and when you add the rhythmic tension through the additive rhythms and add an extra layer of conceptual ideas, you have a brilliant record
ultimately I feel like the record just resonates a lot more with people who have that understanding of classical music to draw upon. there's a quote by John Adams, the modern composer, where he was talking about his newest piece "Absolute Jest" which takes segments of Beethoven's Scherzos in the string quartets and symphonies and then does variations upon them.
what he basically said was that the piece wasn't for the pop public: it was for people who know Beethoven's music and will recognize the motives being moved around.
>>60489076
>>60489132
Okay so you're one of those people who manage to like it because they associate it with actual symphonic music that's actually good.
Now, as for the music you're linking, composition-wise it is similar indeed (insofar as TAW can also be likened to The Grand Declaration of War) but the rest isn't there.
It is emotionally powerful precisely because it ISN'T disrupted by djent-ish glitchy staccato and additive rhythms, because it ISN'T bogged down by awkward misconceptions about contemporary culture and a silly mythology. Because it has none of the things that PREVENT the ark work from being brilliant.
Check out this band live if you can. They take away all the electronics and just use a traditional rock setup. Kel Valhaal sounds so much better with guitars instead of doots. Only thing that sucks is that HHH is even worse live when it comes to singing.
>>60489253
>It is emotionally powerful precisely because it ISN'T disrupted by djent-ish glitchy staccato and additive rhythms, because it ISN'T bogged down by awkward misconceptions about contemporary culture and a silly mythology. Because it has none of the things that PREVENT the ark work from being brilliant.
mmmmm see I disagree there. the glitchy and changing meters do a lot to enhance the emotion of it. rhythm is an incredibly powerful emotional force in music.
Steve Reich's Drumming, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, King Crimson's Discipline; these are albums that do a lot with groove and rhythm. Drumming's 1st movement doesn't even have any pitched instruments but you still feel that emotional catharsis from each measure's loop and development
and of course we can't forget this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZtWAqc3qyk
if that was barred in 4/4 with simple dotted rhythms it wouldn't be nearly as suspenseful. it's precisely the fact that it was separated into "glitchy" and scattered x/16 bars that it is such a powerful musical piece.
I've always considered the conceptual stuff icing on the cake rather than the main affair, so I'll just say "it's all sujective" :)
>>60489371
>these are albums
well that's embarrassing lmao
these are MUSICAL WORKS
I should be in bed right now desu
>>60489371
>>60489380
It doesn't have to be 4/4
The thing about HHH's grooves (except when he does stoner-ish stuff) is that unless you're focusing exclusively on the drums it's just gonna interrupt the flow of those big sweeping chord progressions he likes so much.
It feels like the music is stuttering, stumbling awkwardly, even if it's all purposeful and controlled. There's no momentum that builds up except when he decides to shift into special tremolo.
And HHH's music, as far as I know, isn't supposed to be cathartic, it's supposed to be rapturous and delightful. Instead, when you manage to get into the groove, you feel like a ball in a pinball machine, it's actually quite uncomfortable.
>>60489484
>And HHH's music, as far as I know, isn't supposed to be cathartic, it's supposed to be rapturous and delightful.
what's the difference? I equate the two.
>The thing about HHH's grooves (except when he does stoner-ish stuff) is that unless you're focusing exclusively on the drums it's just gonna interrupt the flow of those big sweeping chord progressions he likes so much.
I really don't see this.
>It feels like the music is stuttering, stumbling awkwardly, even if it's all purposeful and controlled. There's no momentum that builds up except when he decides to shift into special tremolo.
then what do you think of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0jcWy32Hq4
>>60489560
Well I'm implying that catharsis requires some kind of pain or discomfort. I'm certainly getting a lot of discomfort from Liturgy but it isn't making me feel either absolved or more clear-minded about my issues.
This particular piece also sounds a bit awkward, and similar to Liturgy in that regard. Each time there's a tempo shift it sounds like it's going backwards. The way HHH describes his "burst beat" implies that it should give you the impression of shifting gears and going faster even if the tempo is actually getting slower, of being about to explode or to blow apart because there's a tension building up. Instead it makes me feel like I'm on a conveyor belt and that there's a monkey fucking with the controls. Same thing with that piece.
>>60489668
>Well I'm implying that catharsis requires some kind of pain or discomfort. I'm certainly getting a lot of discomfort from Liturgy but it isn't making me feel either absolved or more clear-minded about my issues.
for me the discomfort is from the rhythms and how they resolve
>This particular piece also sounds a bit awkward, and similar to Liturgy in that regard.
well there you go, you don't like additive minimalist music.
I wasn't sure if you would say Glass was doing it better somehow which would lead us to an impasse.
maybe you might resonate with Glass' reasoning: it came to him from studying the Raga with Ravi Shankar. basically Ragas are not based around manipulating harmony or melody to create tension, as in western music: they're based around manipulating the rhythm around the melody/harmony to create tension
>>60489781
The thing is I like Glass' music by and large, I also like classical Indian music even if I'm not knowledgeable about it. But I usually like it for other reasons than manipulating the rhythm abruptly.
And it's not like I can't appreciate stuttering music, those rhythms are pretty popular in mathcore in general, and I can groove to that, the big difference is that it's not uncomfortable so much as it is just brutal.
I think that's because unlike Liturgy and those classical composers, mathcore kids aren't out to make rapturous and ecstatic music, they're out to make technical and badass music, and to that effect, irregular rhythms work well because they feel like you're getting punched and have to fight back.
Do you see why I feel that doesn't work with Liturgy's angelic bullshit? It's like the angels are poking my shoulders to annoy me.
>>60489956
sorry I don't quite get it :(
but we've both had a productive discussion and on the internet we've done what we can to try and bridge things
I'm sure if we were in person it'd be easier to understand
>>60480360
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5th225wgsk
>>60489997
What I'm trying to get at, I think, is that if the tempo shifts were progressive instead of abrupt, and if the time signature shifts were introduced more explicitly, then I wouldn't feel like I'm being jerked around by nerdy post-angels from tumblrspace, and I might actually feel like they're lifting me up to the prismatic city of Autistica. But as I said rhythmic patterns aren't this album's only issue.
>>60490054
I guess I get that, but I really enjoy that instead of being repulsed
>>60490099
That sounds like kind of a masochistic experience. And I really don't think HHH had that in mind.
>>60490174
Stravinsky and Glass had it in mind. :)
>>60490191
I don't doubt that.
And to a degree, that might have been part of HHH's intention at some point but he didn't really manage to reconciliate it with the rest of his ambitions.
I mean, like most people I do a little sparring in a club, and I can relate the tempo shifts to the ebb and flow of a fight, I get that it's supposed to create drama and that you have to adapt yourself to the changing groove to "win", but it never really feels like I'm winning even by chance, and it doesn't really feel like a fight either because the chords are too cheerful and the sound too soft and sugary to put me in a fighting mood.
>>60488937
Garish is exactly the word I'd use to describe it, but in a positive light. It's not really supposed to be elegant, its supposed to contrast the two elements (artificial and human) in a way that's apparent and something of a shock to the system.
>>60490314
I absolutely doubt that. Having read a lot of HHH's writings it's pretty clear that he's blindly enthusiastic about technology and its possibilities.
>>60490341
Then why does he choose to use such dated technologies in the Ark Work? The midi samples sound straight of a 90s Casio, I can't imagine that he did this for any other reason other than to bring about a nearly absurd contrast on purpose
>>60490400
On the contrary I think he did it as a way to "bring BM into the 21st century", by using one of the definitive elements of old Black Metal (the really crude synth interludes) and applying some millenial glitch aesthetics over it.
I mean, that can work, but only if you're trying to make your music sound alien and devoid of human feelings.
>>60490443
or if you're trying to apply the gothic ruin aesthetic to modern material, but seeing how cheerful this album is, I don't think that's what Hunter wanted either
as a person who loves TAW I'm chill with people not liking it but only if they discuss it rationally and don't just say
>liturgy fags
>actually liking Vitriol
or other shit
to that end it's great to see avid discussion of the album.
>>60490443
This is a good explanation that gives me much to consider, thank you
>>60490579
That's funny cause I've been discussing it for two hours and I probably hate it WAY more than all the shitposters who just greentext and then fuck off.
Like, Liturgy actually offends me on some levels and I feel like I have to explain exactly why because I can't let people appreciate it without being aware of its shortcomings. I guess that makes me kind of a dick, but I feel like HHH was also a dick with his talk of "sacrificing Black Metal" and whatnot.
>>60480360
Hunter Hunt Hendrix is the Michael Jordan of Black Metal. /mu/ is just haters because Mayhem is basically just one of those shitty Italian league or w/e basketball teams and Liturgy is the 90s Chicago Bulls
>>60490633
Does this dick look like it belongs to Jordan?
alright then we've at least settled that this album wasn't too deep for /mu/.
>>60490662
wow that was very racist and i'm triggered
>>60480824
soundcard sounds were a large part of my childhood when i used to fuck around on the computer as a kid but i still love this album
