/prog/
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You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music
Prog general thread.
Well, you tried.
>>55080792
not even prog
>>55080809
Don't you think that was the point? As far as jokes go, this is just sad.
Well, krautrock is considered prog
>>55080855
not beefheart
>>55080888
How is Trout Mask Replica not progressive rock? The song structures are progressive- they develop and change as the song goes on. The album could also be considered progressive because it used a totally new composition style for rock music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlvUeMqQjRI
>>55080930
99% of music has a progression, but that doesn't make it prog.
It's cool. You'll do better next time
Have you guys heard this album? Great french avant-prog, check it out if you haven't already.
>>55080958
i dont like the cover
makes me wonder 'why am i not listening to henry cow instead?'
>>55080950
You're saying that a rock album that is progressive is not progressive rock? What makes an album progressive rock if it isn't being progressive rock?
>>55080809
>>55080826
>
>>55081053
Anon, Replica is experimental.
But it isn't prog. Don't slap genres on albums just because of it or people will make fun of you because you sound like an ass.
What other prog albums have you listened to?
Robert Wyatt is a progressive rock god. His work with Soft Machine was excellent, his work with Matching Mole was excellent, and his solo work was excellent. He was also not only a great prog writer, but also an incredible drummer.
>>55080792
TMR is more of an Avant-Garde experimental record I'd say.
Pic related though.
>>55080930
The major difference between rock and progressive rock is that the movements, or song sections, in progressive rock are heterogeneous.
>>55081144
>What other prog albums have you listened to?
Enough that I won't bother posting them here.
>>55081269
None then?
>>55081263
In most of Trout Mask Replica's songs, the sections are heterogeneous. Its songs just switch sections very quickly and often.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dET-L48M8b4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlvUeMqQjRI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rCR47MKnfk
>>55081263
everything about TMR is heterogenous, stop talking out of your ass. this makes it more avant than prog though.
>>55081303
Recent listens:
In the Land of Grey and Pink
Little Red Record
Music From The Penguin Cafe (not sure if this is prog, but I'll throw it in anyway)
1313
Kokkyou Junreika
Phallus Dei
Musik Von Harmonia
Octopus
Angel's Egg
The Polite Force
Batelages
Absolutely Free
Larks' Tongues In Aspic
>>55081263
>Trout Mask Replica
>At all homogeneous
You clearly have not listened to it or are just trying to sound smart.
>>55081413
>>55081263
>>55080930
The main aspect of prog is that it strips out blues influence from rock and implements a new array of instruments into it (Hammond organ, mellotron, violin, synths, chello and whatnot).
Most prog isn't hard to get into sonically, but the songs tend to be long, the song topics are usually focused on fantasy (but it isn't a requirement).
Alternative tunings, strange progressions, polirhythm and odd timing signatures can be employed, but they are NOT obligatory. Prog metal abuses them, but not all prog is like prog metal. Look at Genesis: it's prog, but the music is fairly simple and easy to grasp. Even if the songs are long.
>>55081510
Penguin Cafe Orchestra is Modern Classical/Chamber Music, as far as I know.
Absolutely Free is experimental / psych (like most of Zappa).
The rest are prog, but remember that there's a lot of subgenres (Canterbury, Symphonic, Zehul and so on).
Trout isn't prog. Being experimental != prog. Don't be confused by the name, not all music that's "progressive" is prog.
>>55081656
>The main aspect of prog is that it strips out blues influence from rock and implements a new array of instruments into it (Hammond organ, mellotron, violin, synths, chello and whatnot).
Can we consider a lot of the Beatles' work to be prog, then? Part of what makes the Beatles so acclaimed is how they started to take rock away from its basis in the blues and instead were inspired by Western art music. Would you really say that this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKQpRgxyyqo is progressive rock, and Trout Mask isn't? It just seems like the things that are often employed but not necessary are better things to use to judge if rock is progressive or not than stripping rock of blues influence and using new instruments.
But if your point stands, Trout Mask Replica still is quite important to progressive rock. It has basically every single thing that makes something progressive rock, but it's obviously firmly rooted in and influenced by blues. It's sort of fascinating for that reason- it shows how much rock has developed since the 12 bar blues, yet it's still VERY based in how the blues sounded. It represents rock at its most basic form and rock at its most progressive/complex form, and that's part of the reason why I love it so much.
>>55080958
Lieutenant Mincelung - Cow Mask Copy
>>55081805
But Anon, Beatles are considered proto-prog.
>>55081805
No, you dense idiot.
Where's the new array of instruments?
The length? The symphonic feel that's usually attached to prog music?
Also, while not all prog talks about fantasy, love and daily life stuff is usually absent form it.
Fuck man, for someone who listens to plenty of prog (if you're >>55081510) you have no idea.
>>55081890
ehhh
I wouldn't say that, but everything is proto-something so whatever.
>>55081805
>>55081937
Another thing.
While prog isn't openly against pop, the composition stays away from that canon.
There are several bends that tried to blend both (Gentle Giant being the biggest example), but most bands stayed away.
The Beatles always were pop. Sure, they included a bit more variety in their latter years, but everything was subverted to being easy. It's just how they were.
>>55081937
>The length? The symphonic feel that's usually attached to prog music?
You didn't seem to act as though length or a 'symphonic feel' was necessary.
>Where's the new array of instruments?
I suppose that I assumed the keyboard solo halfway through was a strange instrument to use in a rock like a harpsichord or something, but it's apparently a piano recording that was sped up quite a bit. Nonetheless, I would say that the keyboard solo in this at least has the timbre of an uncommon instrument.
>Also, while not all prog talks about fantasy, love and daily life stuff is usually absent form it.
Hey, another thing that, while common, is not necessary.
In your first response, you claimed that the main aspect of prog is stripping the blues influence from rock and implementing new instruments. The Beatles were basically the first group to strip the blues influence from rock, and the keyboard solo of In My Life at least was edited to seem like a new instrument. I would say that a few songs on Rubber Soul are definitely within your parameters for what is prog.
>>55082119
>piano
>weird in rock
what
>>55082116
Now you're changing the goalposts. Originally you said:
>the main aspect of prog is stripping the blues influence from rock and using new instruments
Now our parameters are
>a symphonic feel
>long songs
>absence of love and daily life in lyrics
>staying away from pop music
These are all things you used to say a song was not prog.
>>55082132
Should I point to this song instead?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY5i4-rWh44
Or should I a different band's song? This one uses coca cola cans, an instrument that is certainly new to rock music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYBlfpCVHBo
>>55082132
yep let me tell you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6JZW7zMDfY
>>55082132
Also, the Beatles were using the piano in a unique way by speeding it up and changing the timbre. I would say that changing an instruments timbre to the point where it resembles a different instrument entirely is pretty much as good as using that different instrument.
Is this progressive rock?
>>55082332
That doesn't mean it's prog.
The Beatles were notable because they had *less* blues. But it's influence was still there.
Prog throws blues out the window and replaces it with something else. Classical, jazz, spanish music (see Andalusian prog).
Just one instrument doesn't make your music prog. Musicians had been including a random instrument solo for years (see this guy >>55082243).
Neither the Beach Boys or the Beatles are prog because they still use a lot of the cannon left by Blues. Again, stop trying to make everything prog.
I'm not shifting my goalposts. They aren't prog because 1) there's still Blues in there mang 2) For fucks sake compare the sound of the Beatles with Yes dummy. It's as easy as that.
>>55082549
Post-Hardcore anon.
Some people say it's Post-Rock (which came from prog, but isn't prog).
pic related is amazing, it's like a more difficult Art Bears with lots of tape manipulation
https://mega.co.nz/#F!vhk1xYII!Sf5YblzMgs_2D7H_3PwMbQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbJVUhLyr7M
>>55080958
yeah, it's great
>>55082814
Show me the blues influence in that Beatles song.
I mean, the Beatles have made a few straight up blues songs in their day. But consistently they were making songs that were not at all like the blues.
Is this Prog enough?
>>55083018
1) The instruments. The singer/guitar/bass/drums combo.
2) Pentatonic.
3) Most pop chord progressions (i - VI - III - VII / I - V - vi - IV and similars) are left over from blues.
4) Listen to the guitar at the beginning. Or at 2:07. Blues.
Stop wanting everything to be prog. Just shtap.
>>55083203
I need to go anon.
It's been fun. You dense fuck.
For everybody arguing about genres.
Genres are made by following existing traditions and implementing new elements to make those genres evolve and eventually make other new genres.
Since TMR has noting to do with the evolution of Krautrock, Progressive Rock, etc, it can't be considered Prog.
>>55083175
Of course.
>>55082814
Post-Rock came from Krautrock (which is not a Prog subgenre). Even then, Spiderland has no Krautrock influences and is not even Post-Rock.
>>55082814
>Andalusian prog
That sounds like it could be crazy shit, looking that up now.
>>55080930
>How is {Band Name} not progressive rock?The song structures are progressive
This is said so often I'm beginning to think it's said as a joke or troll post. The term progressive was used within the context of that time when certain bands deviated from traditional rock music structures and incorporated whatever the fuck they wanted. Today, it describes bands that retain the particular aesthetic of that era.
>>55084023
Progressive Rock is just the music that took significant influences from King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Nice/ELP, Gentle Giant, and the bands that follow them.
>>55081146
Robert Wyatt is one of my favorite artists, but personally, I feel his work with Matching Mole was mediocre at best. Certainly not as good as Soft Machine or his solo work. Rock Bottom is one of the greatest albums of all time in my humble opinion. I recommend that album to anyone who hasn't already heard it.
>>55080792
my grandpa had an original pressing of this and i stole it from him lol
same with bitches brew
>>55084107
>Progressive Rock is just the music that took significant influences from King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Nice/ELP, Gentle Giant, and the bands that follow them.
Yeah...that's what I said. Don't know what your post adds other than examples of said bands that were at the prog forefront, or that at the very least popularized it.
>>55084337
Wut
Is this prog?
Who is everyone's favourite prog vocalist?
Mine would be Jon Anderson, with Robert Wyatt coming in a very close second.
>>55080958
Really enjoyed this one, actually.
Nice to see some non-Zeuhl French prog getting noiced.
>>55084443
The difference with my post and yours is that only bands that only bands that sound like 70s Prog are considered Prog (according to you), but there is a lot of Prog that is not from the 70s and sounds nothing like 70s Prog that is still Prog because they were influenced by the bands who were influenced by Crimson & Co.
Also, there are a lot of Prog bands that aren't really Prog, like Can, Magma, Henry Cow, etc, because they had no influenced from Crimson & Co.
Am I explaining myself well?
>>55084536
That guy from Area, Dagmar Krause (Henry Cow/Slapp Happy), and Albert Marcoeur (not strictly Prog, but whatever).
>>55083175
Deliciously so, and pretty unique among Prog bands.
Shame their stuff was so hard to get for the longest time.
>>55084248
I don't think it's as good as his other projects or solo stuff, but I don't think it's mediocre.
It's pretty mellow and a tad relaxing.
>>55084548
Ah yes I understand you completely now. You're right. I redact saying that contemporary prog merely retains the aesthetic of 70's prog( citing as you say Can and Magma in particular).
It becomes a highly semantic argument, but I guess that's because prog has become a huge umbrella term, and of course, there is always a grey area.
>>55084780
My point is that genres are just a tradition thing. Everything that follows a specific traditions is part of a genre.
Now, there's the weird case of Progressive Rock meaning two things at the same time. First, the actual genre of Crimson/etc, that doesn't include Magma/Can/Soft Machine/etc. Then, there's the umbrella term for the late 60s/early 70s "standarized experimental rock" and their derivates (Canterbury, Avant Prog, Krautrock, Symphonic).
>>55084536
John Wetton
>>55083742
Oh shut up Avant.
You're even more anal about your dumb-ass chart, no matter how everyone tells you it sucks.
And Post-rock comes from both Kraut and Prog.
>>55086421
Of course I am, it's fun to discuss that kind of things. I don't have a problem with people telling me it sucks, because there are also people who tell me it's great. You don't have to use it if you don't want to.
The proportion of Kraut and Prog influences in Krautrock are like 20 to 1.
>>55086616
In 1st wave it's 5 to 1.
Second wave is even.
Third wave is 1 to 3, but most 3rd wave sucks.
>>55080805
This guy pretty much summed up all my feelings about this thread.
>"oh nice a prog general"
>TMR
>genre bitching
>opinions as facts
>shitposting
>fucking avant-math god shows up
You all suck.
>>55086789
How is Trout Mask Replica not prog?
>>55086701
Could you tell me some examples of Prog influencing Post Rock? Really curious, because I can't hear any from what I have heard.
>>55086789
You missed me, baby? c;
>>55086814
See >>55083742
The best way to tag the album is simply Experimental Rock.
>>55086815
No, /prog/ was always better without you and gally shitting up the place with your bitching
>>55086843
>The best way to tag the album is simply Experimental Rock.
Why?
>>55086815
Firs bands that come to mind are:
GY!BE (don't tell me they are kraut, don't be dumb)
Crippled Black Phoenix
MONO
>>55083175
>mfw I found a copy of Sing to God for < $50
Should be coming next week at best.
>>55086858
Apparently because it's prog before prog was a thing.
This guy you;re arguing with is a huge jabroni
>>55086852
You are shitting the thread complaining about things that haven't happened yet.
>>55086858
There's no other way. You can't compare it to any other genre because it would feel out of place. The closest you could get is ""Punk"", which isn't even near.
>>55086866
GYBE are an original Post-Rock band, but I don't see the Prog influences. No Krautrock though.
And what about the other two bands have Prog influences? I have already heard Mono, but can't recall much.
>>55086880
>tfw still no Sing to God Double CD
;_;
ITT: people don't understand that most genre names are not or are no longer etymologically appropriate.
>made a joke in another thread about /prog/ generals
>that avant god and genre bitching bring the threads down
>it's happening right now
Christ, can you just not?
>>55086916
Prog was already a thing when the album came out, but it has nothing to do with the genre, that's why it's not Prog.
And hey, I'm being nice.
>>55086937
People don't even know how genres work.
>>55086952
I'm having fun at least.
>>55086969
Prog wasn't already 'a thing' when Trout Mask Replica came out.
It wasn't even called prog rock, and the vast majority of it was an offshoot of the Psyche scene and was rather in its nascent stages than 'already a thing.'
>>55086952
Genre bitching started with the OP anon. No way around it.
>>55086937
This.
>>55086921
They are reminiscent of some of KC's late work, to a degree.
MONO and Crippled are the most evident ones, listen to I, Vigilante.
>>55086969
TMR came before prog even started. Don't be dumb.
>>55086937
If everyone accepted this then life would be easier. The words don't fucking mean anything they're just there to represent a sound. Who cares if prog isn't progressive or post-rock isn't after rock
>>55087020
My point is that TMR has nothing to do with Prog, as simple as that.
Even then, some Prog albums before TMR was released are
>>55087059
What do you mean with KC's late work? I mean, stuff like Indiscipline? Because I see no Indiscipline in GYBE.
Ars Longa Vita Brevis: December 1968
Unce Meat: April 1969
TMR: June 1969
In The Court: October 1969
>>55087152
Exactly.
anyone collect?
>>55087059
I remember reading about I, Vigilante being influenced by DSotM. I shigged.
>>55084536
Peter Gabriel, followed by Greg Lake, Roine Stolt, and Neal Morse
>>55086969
>Prog was already a thing when the album came out, but it has nothing to do with the genre, that's why it's not Prog.
What is prog?
>>55087192
Yes.
Though, all the prog I want, aside from a few of the Yes, Genesis and Jethro Tull albums I already have, most are abnormally hard to come by.
Any kind of RIO, Kraut, Zeuhl and non UK/US Prog is pretty hard to get even in CD form in person, unless I just want to eat shipping costs, sadly.
>>55087297
Well, it depends if we are talking about the genre or the umbrella term.
>>55087202
Nope.
It's really good, give it a shot.
>>55087181
Ok ok. And how in nimble blasting fuck is TMR prog? Are you dumb?
>>55087341
>iktf
>>55083742
Math rock is very much derived from bands like King Crimson, especially albums like Red.
>>55087152
You can thank Progarchives for people lumping stuff like Jazz Fusion, Experimental Rock and Psyche Rock in with prog.
>>55087410
See: Avant-Math
>>55087406
Don't get me wrong, I've snagged a few really neat things.
I have one Art Bears LP, 3 Henry Cow LPs, a slew of Zappa LPs and all of the KC albums I want; but, Jesus it gets hard to find the good stuff.
>>55084248
I honestly don't get all the fuss over rock bottom,I find "the end of an ear" much,much more enjoyable,groundbreaking and diverse
>>55087409
I think it'd be much more in line with Discipline and their 80s improv output.
>>55087458
>3 henry cows
very, very jealous
>>55087387
I'm saying it's not Prog.
In the same post you are quoting I said
>My point is that TMR has nothing to do with Prog, as simple as that.
>>55087409
Red has almost no Math Rock on it, it actually has nothing on it.
Math Rock is more of a sub-genre from some Post-Hardcore bands and Ruins (a Prog Punk/Brutal Prog band), and some Technical Trash Metal (Breadwinner)
>>55087440
Hey, why?
>>55087410
Progarchives is awful, sadly.
>>55086789
I just Came here, was happy that this thread got so many replies and then I wanted to say exactly the same thing
>>55087590
Holy shit.
First press?
>>55087192
>>55087281
>>55087315
>>55087348
>>55087406
>>55087443
>>55087521
>>55087552
All (see: great).
I'd post the few from my collection but I lent them to my girlfriend since she wanted to hear some of the stuff I listen to.
>>55080930
Because "prog" or "progressive rock" has nothing to do with progression. It has to do with singing stupid fantasy lyrics about dragons ripped off from Anne McCaffrey novels while your mate noodles on an electric organ and your other mate plays the fucking bongos in 12/372.
"Prog" is just pointless excess with no attention paid to fitting everything together in a coherent way.
Prog musicians are like children who looks in the cupboard and adds everything she can to make a dish, but then ends up mixing together chocolate, tomatoes, toothpaste, aerosol cheese and bovril. Any of the ingredients can be good on their own, but prog musicians lacking any sort of tastefulness or aesthetic judgement, lack any sort of reference by which they can judge if things go together well, exactly the same defect afflicts the fans of prog.
>>55087618
no
>>55087540
You know that Ruins is specifically and self labled as Zeuhl, even if they do have influences from Punk, right?
>>55087646
I always assumed that people on /mu/ would agree with me on progressive rock being rock music that's progressive.
>>55087646
That's your subjective appreciation of the music, I love that kind of stuff.
>>55087692
Yes, but I don't really think of them as a Zeuhl band. The only Zeuhl element they have is singing in an invented language. Other than that, they are Hardcore Punk mixed with Prog's Mathy Rhythms, which is what made them the first Math Rock band.
>>55087704
Unfortunately the terms got mixed up long some time in the late sixties because some rock bands that were actually progressive started being copied by other shittier bands like Yes and Genesis, who were so stupid and ignorant they didn't know the meaning of the word "progressive".
Of coarse Trout Mask Replica is "progressive" "rock", it just isn't "progressive rock".
>>55087763
It wasn't called Prog Rock until later.
The contemporary terms for what we call prog rock now were things like Art Rock, and stuff like Flash Rock or Techno Rock as pejoratives.
>>55087738
>strong, complex rhythm section
>emphasis on bass drum grooves
>operatic vocals
I'll grant their earlier stuff where it's just bass and drums is less traditional than Magma, but many of their later releases with full bands are full on modern Zeuhl.
Don't play coy.
>>55087874
You also had simultaneous movements in folk shaping a lot of what is standard fare in later early prog rock.
>>55087998
It's probably because we can see in hindsight, and compiled on elaborate websites, all the hundreds of bands from all over the Western hemisphere (and a few that were not) that were combining things like Blues, Rock, Jazz, Folk, Classical and electronic music as it was emerging.
People listening to Zappa or Crimson or Genesis were probably not aware of the contemporary stuff being released that was weirder or more obscure.
>>55087979
Yes, later releases were like that, but I'm talking about Ruins self titled from 1986 here (since we are talking about the beginnings of Math Rock). Other than the complex and abrupt rhythms, the vocals were not operatic, but shouted. Agree with the bass thing, but that's not really a Zeuhl specific trait.
>>55088043
smexy
>>55088101
love that orange and green atlantic label, shouldn't work but it does. Inside of gatefold is cool too
>>55088072
I agree on the naming, but also think it says a lot about when prog became prog.
>People listening to Zappa or Crimson or Genesis were probably not aware of the contemporary stuff being released that was weirder or more obscure.
Judging by record collections I've gone through at estate sales and in old farts houses, a lot of them were. You don't see full collections like you do now, but when it's outside the usual dadrock dabble, there's a lot of John Renbourn medieval folk, spacy psychedelia, ethnic fusion stuff and other contemporaries we think of as standard fare in proto-prog.
If we're talking when prog congealed in the early to mid 70s, you see examples of everything outside the big names in some quantity. It can be like clicking around albums on youtube at times. I've heard it's even more common in Britain where most of the output was.
>>55080930
you seem to have made a mistake
never mistake something as progressive rock simply because it's innovative.
I've even heard people go to the extent where they'll say a band is progressive rock now because their rock music is different than it was x albums ago.
progressive rock is not ambiguous, there are requirements and it'd be best if it were called "pretentious rock" instead so people could at least better understand what actually defines a prog rock band.
>>55088891
>>55088891
>I've even heard people go to the extent where they'll say a band is progressive rock now because their rock music is different than it was x albums ago.
These are the same plebs that say they like progressive rock and only like one album from the two bands that they've actually listened to, think pink floyd is a person, and don't into Tolkien.
>>55089195
>These are the same plebs that say they like progressive rock and only like one song by Pink Floyd
Fixed
>>55089247
14 year old boys love Rush for the edgy cynicism. You'd know this if you could sing like geddy lee and used it do get your D balls deep in dat boipucci, you stupid tripnigger.
>>55080792
>>55087646
Your mother is a whore.
>>55083175
>tfw no Cardiacs merch
I really want this shirt, but man I can't spend that much for a shirt on my budget.
>>55092400
Pizza Kids > Alien Kids
>>55093290
When it comes to T-Shirts
Little Man > StG > Flower
Anyways, maybe you could get the Little Man/ABC Mug? I would buy that one.
>>55094025
I'd buy the StG shirt, but I'm sure people will think I'm Christian as fuck if I wore it in public.
>>55094087
But if you buy the flower one people will think you are some kind of emo kid.
You can't go wrong with the Little Man one though c;
>>55081937
Actually a lot of prog deals with mundane, normal life. Most of King Crimson's work (not the earlier stuff I guess) deals with relationships, death, and depression.
>>55096308
It depends on the band, but most of it doesn't deal with the usual rock shit. It's rock that doesn't examine daily life in the way prog does. That's usually left for folk. Then there's all the literary references and heavy shit that mainstream rock doesn't usually explore in such a macroscopic or microscopic way.
Is Math Rock (such as pic related) considered Progressive Rock?
>>55097469
Depends on who you ask, but I'd say so
Math kinda grew out of post-hardcore, but is heavily influenced by other genres like prog and noise
