QTDDTOT
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You are currently reading a thread in /lit/ - Literature
You are currently reading a thread in /lit/ - Literature
Questions that don't deserve their own thread
And
Casual Literature discussion
Any good books on writing novels? I read a lot of books but I just need something on the craft to help me.
What's the best book you have read this year, anon?
I'm curious.
>>7975430
Made this thread hoping that the huge number of questions that are asked be invaders from other boards without reading the sticky can be contained here. Since by this point, it's quite obvious that the number of people from other boards coming in are increasing, a QTDDTOT thread might help in keeping the catalog slightly cleaner.
Also, it seems as if the number of "beginner-questions" (that can be answered by the sticky) have sort of increased:
>where to begin with x?
>anything like x?
>books like this album x?
>books for this feel?
Not to mention increased frogposting and shitposting.
>>7975436
I ask this because the image rec on the wiki isn't good (the image recommends books like King's On Writing).
>>7975446
Emma tbqhwyf
>>7975436
Becoming a Writer by Dorthea Brande is my all-time favorite
trash Steven King all you want but On Writing is not bad at all, especially if you ever want to make money writing
William Zinsser's On Writing Well is fantastic, even if you don't want to write nonfiction it's top-tier
Elements of Style is a load of outdated horseshit, avoid
Bird by Bird gets mentioned a lot but it's over-emotional shit
Thousands of books on writing get published every year but most are garbage, avoid anything with a title that includes pleb buzzwords like characterbuilding/worldbuilding/plotbuilding, they are basically color-by-numbers for writing and a pimple on the ass of literature
(though at this point it is so mainstream that literature might be the pimple while shallow plot-drivel is the ass)
>>7975446
Euripides - Bacchae
>>7975430
Should I have cereal for breakfast? Honey Nut Cheerios or Cheerios?
When I read The Divine Comedy what sorts of things should I keep in mind?
I could go in cold and just read the thing back to front but I don't see much harm in asking here for some stuff to enrich the experience.
>>7975571
based honey nut cheerios
May sound stupid but how do some of you guys know so much? Like there's that thread on Linkola/primitivism at the moment and a lot of the repliers don't just have a cursory knowledge of him, they have actual opinions. Is it naive to assume everyone in that thread has read literature on primitivism? If not literature, where do most of you learn about 'stuff' widely? Documentaries? Other online boards? Or just lots of reading?
>>7975611
autism.
Currently reading 1984. Still have Paradise Lost/Regained and The Grapes of Wrath.
Just bought Moby Dick and Siddhartha today.
Monday I'm buying: The Rebulic, The Art of Rhetoric, Beyond Good and Evil, Invisible Man, Inferno (maybe all 3), The Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, Leaves of Grass.
Is that a good starting list for really trying to study/read literature and improving my grasp on the subject?
>note
I mostly chose them, and was asking about them, because I'm very rusty with reading and don't want to dive into more difficult or stylized books that I wouldn't understand well. (I'm holding out on Paradise, and I'm going to read those listed before trying the Bible, Ulysses, etc.)
So I'm not so much asking about content but more for them being a good footing in a growing ability of literary comprehension.
>>7975611
You have a brain, don't you?
You'll find most schools of thought have a baseline for contemplation that most anyone who puts in a few good moments of brainstorming can begin to see. Once you've got your threads, it's up to you to weave an ideological blanket with varying prominence of chosen strands.
>>7975675
Why are you buying so many at a time?
am i gay?
>>7975691
maybe
>>7975689
Bulk investment. Spend $40 now, then don't for months.
Also, thanks for the radiant input. My mind is quite bathed by it.
>>7975675
You're diving into some fairly difficult books. Don't bother with Rhetoric, honestly. It's minor and needs a gallon of context for every drop of content. Instead of reading The Republic, try reading a decent undergrad book on Greek philosophy or on Plato in general, or just reading one of Plato's shorter and earlier dialogues to see if it's to your liking. The Republic is also best understood once you can contextualise it a bit, but it's also long as balls.
Milton and Dante are great, but you may get bored - both will be mostly looking up references, for most people.
The Nietzsche is fun but you might find yourself surprised at how difficult Nietzsche is, given his reputation for being colloquial, pithy, aphoristic, etc.
Don't touch Ulysses for a while. What you're suffering from at this point is "peak syndrome" - you're only seeing the peaks of great literature and Western thought, and you think they have to be tackled like individual boss fights. Let yourself breathe for a little while. Read fun literature. Read Stendhal, Balzac, Cervantes, Hesse, Mann, Melville, Dickens, Apuleius, Tacitus, Suetonius, etc. Have fun with it and realise literature was meant to be enjoyed and felt, often by average people, not just decoded and analysed. I'm not saying "LOL THOSE ELITIST FAGS WITH THEIR ULYSSES, JUST READ FUN LITERATURE!" I'm just saying that before you watch Fagatovsky's Eraserhead 2: Electric Boogaloo, and start analysing lighting and direction choices and trying to recognise which boom mic the director used, you might want to watch the fucking Godfather or some Sergio Leone first.
As for philosophy, philosophy is 90% context, 10% agonising over comprehension. You aren't going to understand a fucking thing for a long time. Even after you start to understand stuff, the middle phase of understanding is even more frustrating because you understand JUST enough to go "so.. wait, he's saying...?" but you still won't have the context and outside knowledge to know that "yep, that's what he's saying, and it's fucking dumb" (e.g.). Philosophy has a really gay initial learning curve, if you want to understand it reasonably well as a whole. Read surveys and online encyclopaedia entries and watch lecture series and listen to audiobooks and read textbooks, and sample from the primary sources. Don't kill yourself over perfectly memorising everyting - it will fall into place. Let your mind be elastic about it, and don't try to forcibly slot every thinker into a rigid classification. Way, way later, you'll realise that even the safer classifications are still approximations for the sake of teaching undergrads.
Find some visually pleasant chart of all the "major" French/Russian/English/modern writers, and bounce around it sampling them, occasionally reading all the great works of one or two that you end up loving. It's more like an open world game whose terrain will be familiar to you after a year or two, than a ball-breaking treadmill.
>>7975675
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24KnwTepKdU
>>7975675
>buying books
>especially classics
lello
>>7975720
This is good advice. You're a good person who exists on /lit/. I'm actually stunned.
>>7975720
My honest plan was to finish 1984, then move onto Grapes, followed by Moby and Leaves of Grass. Once those helped me back into the groove, I was going to move onto Siddhartha, Nietzsche, and the rest.
As I said, I'm certainly holding out on Ulysses and other daunting reads.
But I'm not unlearned or thoughtless; I have a grasp on many philosophies and religions, and haven taken influence from them, and those I've named, over the years. But I'm trying to read them as whole now, to see what I agree with, disagree with, and what expands on what I've already thought.
Given that context, does your opinion still hold? And either way, I might consider dropping Rhetoric and picking up some Hemingway or Tolstoy, since I'm also trying to improve my own creative writing abilities along with literary comprehension.
>>7975446
The Wild Palms (If I Forget Thee, Jerusalem) is my recent fav.
>>7975817
And by 'other daunting reads', out of the ones I'm actually getting monday, I meant to imply saving Plato, Dante, Milton, and Nietche for later (just about in that order). All while intermittently mixing in other, smaller reads (or even just taking time in between to study and branch from and upon what I read) so I can digest the larger works better.
>>7975797
>implying I honestly care
Is there good fiction about either the Capgras or the Fregoli delusion?
>>7975611
>>7975661
>>7975686
A mix of these. Autism gives you the focus needed to study topics no one outside of Autistic Literature Forums will talk about, Most Schools of Thought can be "spark noted", a little Wikipedia here, a little googling there, and bam you can understand certain points in most Schools of Thought, However, reading the source materials and books on the topics at hand will give you more in depth knowledge of the topic and unless they have in depth knowledge of the topic, their opinions are based on Wikipedia summaries and some guys blog.
>>7975720
Still me, but there's a lot of content you pushed at me all with great information. But at the same time, you take some generalizations that don't nessessarily apply to me, and I want to refine your advice since it seems very helpful and we'll thought. I can't thank you enough for putting the time to answer and help.
I've never been one for strict classification and fully believe philosophies of one sort or another may unintentionally correlate in ways that obstruct them from rigid classification. I'm almost glad I'm trying to teach myself and not go to school for Lit because I feel that my unbiased naivety almost gives me as much an upper hand as it does hinders me.
I'll be saving your recommendations and looking into them as well as looking for a great chart which outlines just what you suggested (though I do believe I was unconsciously aiming for such a thing by singling out Melville, Whitman, Steinbeck and Dante and Milton; and also why I threw in Tolstoy after your suggestion of dropping Rhetoric).
And good context sources to suggest before I attempt The Republic, The Divine Comedy, and Paradise? Maybe just a site, image, or a brief summary?
>>7975719
>>7975675
I would just like to point out this kind of thinking might not work. Bulk investing might work on something like food but with books you'll find yourself with a large stack of books and you'll only have read a few before you realize it takes much longer to read through these books than you once thought. You'll also come to learn that some 300 page books are actually disguising their true length, each page will be words from top to bottom, fitted on the page perfectly, you'll realize that if this books font was one or two steps bigger and more spread out it would be a 600 - 800 page book.
>>7975920
That's okay. I started 1984 about a week ago and between work and social life, I'm a little over halfway.
I've got my whole life. And though I want to read them all, I want to understand them more. So I'm not in an inherent hurry. Which then makes buying bulk seem like the perfect idea and why I took some time deciding that list, and did not just throw darts at covers.
>>7975946
That list is pretty solid but Beyond Good and Evil is not a good intro to Nietzsche. Nietzsche is one of those people who you can't read his books randomly. I would suggest starting with "The Gay Science" or even the "Basic Writings of Nietzsche"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679600000/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_35?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2CE7EN4TBTG38
>>7975970
Awesome, thanks for the input! That's the consensus that I've noticed about Nietzsche, and I suppose I may have been overzealous in deciding BGaE. (it was that or Zarathustra initially)
>>7975987
I also suggest adding "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelley into your reading list. It is much better than I thought it would be and its so very different from the portrayals of Frankenstein in the media.
>>7975807
Shit, thanks. Y-you too senpai.
>>7975817
>>7975897
I probably overgeneralised you as a total newbie to readin' stuff, so sorry for that. But also, please don't take what I'm saying as anything other than some dude's opinion, with several grains of salt. I'm not trying to schoolmaster you or anything like that.
You seem like you're going about it the right way. I think I projected my past self onto you. I bought Rhetoric and some other Aristotle thinking it would be some self-contained, understandable, etc. and it threw me off how impenetrable it all was. I did this with a lot of stuff, and it's only much later after I had really let myself soak in a thousand things that everything became enjoyable and started to make sense. It's just so easy to burn out in that early period, or to plateau and feel too exhausted to start climbing again.
It was just a very important realisation for me that you need to build your personal Road to Erudition out of medium-sized enjoyment, rather than thinking of everything in terms of leaping from sterile peak to sterile peak. And I see lots of people on /lit/ thinking the way I did at first, that reading some shit like Pynchon or "getting Finnegans Wake" is the point of reading Chaucer. Or beating themselves over the head because they don't have a mystical experience reading Dostoevsky as a 19 year old whose entire view of the world is still very small. I think being well-read is about widening and refining your aperture, not just aiming it at the right stuff and knowing what that stuff is.
I agree with you on not learning it through university being an advantage. There's a weird brain sickness that university people get where their unconscious mind associates the fact "I Took A Shitty Course On ______" with "I Know _____," which leads to really shallow appreciation of stuff. But there are certain benefits to it. It will force you to read a lot of shit, push you into areas you wouldn't have encountered otherwise. Telling someone they can get a university education in the library is like telling someone they can teach themselves math or computer programming based on free resources - sure, they can, but how many of the ones who intend to do it are actually going to follow through? If you're one of the few who really will though, you're golden.
I say read Dante, Milton, Plato all you want at the outset. I'm only saying be conscious that later you might want to reread them later. Again I just clench my asshole when people go "I want to learn philosophy, so I'm reading The Republic." The Republic is a giant assrape of exegesis. You're supposed to have a feel for geology, so you can at least vaguely appreciate the nature of a rock, and what some of its subtleties hint at, not just be some dude who picks up a rock and memorises every aspect of it unfeelingly. But to get a feel for geology you need to start by just fucking around with rocks. So it's kind of a chicken-egg thing. Hard to articulate.
>>7976074
Also sorry for walls of text I have autism. I don't mean to come off as "I AM PATRICIAN, BEHOLD MY FEATURE-LENGTH ESSAYS." Just some dude who empathises with this situation.
As far as plot twists go, what do you guys consider better, a twist that came completely out of nowhere or one that was hinted at throughout the entire story?
>>7976074
>The Republic is a giant assrape of exegesis.
How does Philebus fare? I bought it the other day from a charity bookshop thinking it was one of Plato's more famous works (must've got it muddled up with Phaedro or something). Anyway, is it an 'important' Plato text? Of course I'm going to read it regardless - just want a bit of a pointer.
>>7976108
both, but moreso a twist that is consequential and internally logical
>>7976108
One that is hinted at but very subtly. Like most people would only see the hints on the second read.
What kind of nonfiction should I get?
I'm currently rereading old favorites (Odyssey and meditations) but I want to read something a bit more practical.
I'm a CS major, if that helps narrow down what I would be interested in. Books on logic and maths are great. But I've also heard promising things about memoirs from nazi tank operators
What are your favorites, /lit /?
>>7976341
you should read Ziggy
>>7976074
>I think being well-read is about widening and refining your aperture, not just aiming it at the right stuff and knowing what that stuff is.
This right here is what I'm trying to say is my end goal. I've thought in depth my whole life, and thought about thinking for half. I'm an analytical and rhetorical person who usually is giving life advice to friends, family, and strangers. I live like a recluse and spend most of my time analysing the world around me. In this, I've ordained an out-of-place modern, but not-quite postmodern, philosophical view which I feel has many large roots stemming back to great thinkers who've already expressed these ideas in different ways. I feel I'm in the right position to study past philosophies that acted as marrow to my current beliefs, and gain a more prevalent knowledge of them to grow an actual skeletal frame.
>If you're one of the few who really will though, you're golden.
I am and I will. There's no doubt in my mind. I can't help but feel my life has been leading up to this in the way that I've gone about it.
>I say read Dante, Milton, Plato all you want at the outset. I'm only saying be conscious that later you might want to reread them later. Again I just clench my asshole when people go "I want to learn philosophy, so I'm reading The Republic." The Republic is a giant assrape of exegesis. You're supposed to have a feel for geology, so you can at least vaguely appreciate the nature of a rock, and what some of its subtleties hint at, not just be some dude who picks up a rock and memorises every aspect of it unfeelingly. But to get a feel for geology you need to start by just fucking around with rocks. So it's kind of a chicken-egg thing. Hard to articulate.
This was most helpful from your excerpt--though I'm not saying the rest wasn't certainly reflective. Maybe I might be well off to make an attempt to mush through the avalanche of texts that I'm certain I will struggle to fully grasp, just so I can gain a respect and feeling for what reading comprehensive habits that I'm striving for.
I understand your analogy, to which I will say that is not only how I actually am with geology--of course, unrelated--but I am as that with both philosophy and literature. Now I am striving for mastery. And until then, I'll need to realign and replace some of my bearings.
All in all, solid advice. And I think I've taken some good tips from everything. Never apologize for walls of text; if the information is kosher, then length is desirable. There's more content, and less loopholes and gaps in the coverage.
Thanks a lot anon. You gave me one of the most down to Earth talks I've had on this site, let alone the board, and the knowledge paired with your advice was very nice.
Made a thread for this just a moment ago, but perhaps it belongs here. I'm looking for someone the explain the joke for me in this scene from Doctor Faustus:
FIRST SCHOLAR. I wonder what's become of Faustus, that was wont
to make our schools ring with sic probo.
SECOND SCHOLAR. That shall we presently know; here comes his boy.
Enter WAGNER.
FIRST SCHOLAR. How now, sirrah! where's thy master?
WAGNER. God in heaven knows.
SECOND SCHOLAR. Why, dost not thou know, then?
WAGNER. Yes, I know; but that follows not.
FIRST SCHOLAR. Go to, sirrah! leave your jesting, and tell us
where he is.
WAGNER. That follows not by force of argument, which you, being
licentiates, should stand upon: therefore acknowledge your
error, and be attentive.
SECOND SCHOLAR. Then you will not tell us?
WAGNER. You are deceived, for I will tell you: yet, if you were
not dunces, you would never ask me such a question; for is he not
corpus naturale? and is not that mobile? then wherefore should
you ask me such a question? But that I am by nature phlegmatic,
slow to wrath, and prone to lechery (to love, I would say), it
were not for you to come within forty foot of the place of
execution, although I do not doubt but to see you both hanged
the next sessions. Thus having triumphed over you, I will set
my countenance like a precisian, and begin to speak thus:--
Truly, my dear brethren, my master is within at dinner, with
Valdes and Cornelius, as this wine, if it could speak, would
inform your worships: and so, the Lord bless you, preserve you,
and keep you, my dear brethren!
>>7976649
the joke is that wagner is going full autism on a pair of chads. they just wanted to know where a nigga at.
>>7976649
He's fucking with them.
>can I go to the bathroom?
>I don't know, CAN you?
>insert many lines of philosophical fuckery at the nature of the question and its wording
>...
>but really, you can go to the bathroom. God bless
>>7976108
Both should be there, but both are badly overused. I just got done reading a book by Abercrombie, and I'm tired of all the goddamn plot twists. He goes out of his way to make the book unpredictable, and ends up making the plot twists predictable themselves. No major character can be killed unless they've had 3 or 4 unexpected rescues from the brink of death, and if some character has put any time and effort into a goal, you can be 100% sure it will fail in "unexpected" random ways.
>>7976609
Is this an epic prank or an actual book? What is the full title ?
Procrastination and lack of self-discipline is ruining my life. Are there any good books on overcoming this? I don't think I'm looking for a self-help book, I have the biased on ignorance opinion that self-help books are garbage; but what the fuck do I know.
>>7976899
It sounds like your problem is that you're fucking stupid. Try not to take it personally, i'm no fucking wit myself.
>>7976942
I suppose stupidity and procrastination are correlated, so you might be right.
>>7976899
You forget about yourself and focus on a subject to work on.
Does anyone even really use onomatopoeia?
Is it just a meme I was taught in middle school?
>>7976971
Is written laughter an onomatopoeia?
>>7976964
i don't think so, I'm reasonably smart by every measure and I'm a huge procrastinator, unfortunately
i have an outline for a 10 page paper due tomorrow and I havent started yet
>>7976971
very rarely.
>>7976971
Buzz, whine, screech,
haha, thud, zoom,
slap or clap,
ring-ding-ding-dong. dong-ring-ding-dong
Whoosh, splat,
Pop, crinkle, chirp
etc,.
>>7977011
i know what it is, thanks
what author writes ring ding into their books
or simply "buzz". maybe he writes, "there was a buzz", but thats not the same thing.
>>7976971
I think it can be used effectively, italicized, to give a hint at something that cannot be directly observed by the characters. Especially if you want to break up your text a bit.
>>7977011
a car that hits a bird and the driver thinks it was a funny and lucky.
Church bells ring as the bird hits the ground while the car drives on.
Many of the bones break as it hits with the ground and it lands on a bag of chips as it let's out a one last note.
Anyone noticed how a lot of otherwise very good authors have some specific, small, and fucking annoying flaws that persist throughout all their works?
>Joe Abercrombie: All the incessant bitching about regretting past decisions, and being forced to do unpleasant things. All his main characters do it.
>Glen Cook: Shamelessly recycled fucking villains. The entire Black Company series only had a handful of villains in it. It got to the point where when a "new" villain arose, you don't wonder whether or not it's an old villain in a new costume, but which one of them it is.
>Gene Wolfe: Fucking melancholy, overly philosophical characters who make all their decisions impulsively for no good reason. I spent his entire series asking, "why the fuck did he do that?"
Are there any books that talk about the capacity of 'abstraction'? I'm not quite sure what I'm even looking for, abstraction seems to be the single most critical ability that separates us from the animal kingdom. I guess I'm looking for some kind of philosophical/metaphysical(?) system that explains abstraction, so I can ponder on it. I just know abstraction is a crucial human ability, but I want some deeper understanding of it as an action and its consequence on us as beings, or people in a civilization.
Should I read next pic related, Tropic of Cancer, or The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle?
>>7977130
You could do worse than to read pic related.
>>7977130
Or perhaps pic related.
>>7977220
Tropic of Cancer. Murakami is a meme.
>>7975430
Read this: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/abstract-objects/
How hard is Gravity's Rainbow?
I managed to get through Ulysses, but it was a challenge. If GR is harder than that I don't think I'll be able to handle it.
>>7977585
Stop putting the pussy on a pedestal.
Which is the best edition of Ulysses to get? I don't really want to get a book full of annotations, for the references I'm going to get a separate companion or maybe just rely on the internet.
I've seen a bunch of people on this board with the one in the link, and it's apparently the text as Joyce himself edited it (I'll post the link in a reply to this post because the system thinks my post is spam)
>>7978310
This is the link: http://www.amazon.com/Ulysses-James-Joyce/dp/0486474704
>>7977585
dont be a bitch just read it
Anybody know of some sort of encyclopedia with short, lesser known events from history? I need plot inspiration
>>7975460
Really? I'm almost done with Northanger Abbey and I was pleasantly surprised by how subtle Austen could be. Have you read any of her other books?
>>7976899
Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman.
Someone posted a painting in a "post art and get a rec" thread featuring chubby people flying/falling out of the night sky over a miami-ish looking city illuminated by colourful city lights. They looked kind of grotesque. Another painting by the same artist featured some disturbed ice cream truck thing flying over the city adorned with bathroom graffiti style slogans.
I think the artist has won a prestigious award or teaches at an ivy league school. Can anyone help me out? It's driving me mental.
>>7975720
An actually helpful reading advice post on /lit/. I never thought I'd see the day. Nice post anon.
anyone ever use thriftbooks?
What's a book that has some thought provoking ideas, or something I can sink my teeth into, but is still a fun and 'easy' read?
I'm a uni student and it's exam season so I'm looking for something I could read for say half an hour at night to get away from work. I was thinking something like Knausgard, I've heard a lot of people say it had a page turning quality to it
Thanks in advance everyone.
>>7978334
she's a great writer. her characters are charming and resourceful, but not flawless and they develop in such a believable, comprehensible manner. people tend to write her off as some kind of chicklit prototype, but her novels always have a good lesson/moral to them that are, in my opinion, still applicable today. she pokes fun at english society in a good-natured way that is not overtly ridiculous, and her books are, as you said, subtle, but you still get a sense of completion and resolution when you've finished a book by her.
pride&prejudice is a must-read tbqh, emma is also great. lizzy from p&p is my forever waifu
Long shot but does anyone know how the German translated version of Stoner by John Williams is? The one translated by Bernhard Robben
>>7978334
I've read them all. If you want subtlety, Emma is Austen's paramount. It's also her most stylistically radical novel. She utilises the style indirect libre (before it was a thing), which means as a reader you get stuck in Emma's worldview, and you almost can't help having her errors become your own. For this reason it rewards multiple readings and re-readings, because when you know how it ends and what's really going on, Emma's mistaken assumptions actually become reflections on her own character.
In The Pale King, was Shane Drinion, the guy who talks with Meredith Rand in one of the last chapters, supposed to be an autist?
>>7975446
Johannes Cabal The Necromancer.
I don't have that much free time to read books, though. What recent quick reads are good? Quick reads being between 300 and 400 pages.
My doctor who I am now not seeing claimed I may be lapsing into schizophrenia now he is absolutely fabricating this and it is not true but what is some literature that has to do with that mindset
>>7979500
Knut Hamsun - Hunger
What are the best translations of Xenophon's Conversations with Socrates and Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War?
>>7975430
Mother, father says im not your son.
I have no idea what the fuck I'm doing with Plato
could someone tell me what dialogues I should read, preferably with a rough order?
My community college gave this away for free. Why is that? Would it trigger or something?
>>7980810
Depends a little on what you want to get out of it, but I'd say start with either the Meno or the Euthyphro, then follow the Euthyprho with the Crito, the Apology, and maybe the Phaedo.
Take your time. Think about how the arguments are supposed to work, and whether you think they're convincing, and how they might be challenged or improved. When someone responds to some argument with "Of course, Socrates, nothing could be clearer!", don't just accept it and move on. Ask yourself if it's really so clear that this thing follows from that.
If you enjoyed reading these, try the Republic. Don't worry too much about figuring out all of it--there's a lot going on. Go a book at a time, and think a lot about the first couple books especially. Probably worth getting a companion book either on the Republic or Plato generally, or find some online course with lectures.
Plato is great, but I'm not sure he's the best way to get into philosophy, since there's a fair amount of superfluous stuff going on that makes things more confusing than they need to be. If you're new to philosophy, you might want to start by reading some contemporary or 20th century stuff or maybe stuff by the early moderns (like Descartes and Hume).
For most topics, plato.stanford.edu is a good resource.
>>7980810
>I have no idea what the fuck I'm doing with Plato
>>869599
I think Phaedo more than any other. It's not any one dialogue really, though, it's the entire process of dialogue itself. You have to see Plato's dialogues as a ritual, an initiation. If you read Plato in an analytic way to break down his points and discover his opinions and try to assess where he fits in the history of Western philosophy, etc., you are reading him wrong (or, at least, not on his own terms). The point is to have your mind swept up in the process of the dialogue, to be fully and completely engaged in it. The dialogue begins with the presentation of an idea, then that idea is attacked, a new idea is offered to correct it, etc., all the while your mind is being trained to contemplate ideas fairly without dismissing them out of hand. Then, when the dialogue reaches its peak, your mind reaches a state of aporia (loss, confusion). This is when your mind feels completely blank. It's hard to describe. Your mind loses all perception, you totally forget the world, your surroundings, your self, and are just in the immediate presence of your own mind. This is when you realise that you have a mind and how immanent it is. The danger here is that you will fall into the Hindu trap of believing that you are part of the divine mind that makes up existence, the experience is that powerful. And then the dialogue introduces its best take of the ideal (usually given by Socrates), and your now freed-up mind is able to contemplate the idea as though it were a statue stood right in front of you.
>>7978711
>>7978369
Thanks for the information
I have been interested on the works of Schopenhauer for a while. The catch is that he often makes references to other philosophers which I am not familiar with, notably Kant, Hegel, Fichte and Schelling.
What would be the best book to get a good overview of their ideas, enough to understand Schope's critiques?
Or which works by these philosophers are the groundwork of their ideas?
>>7975430
What are the differences and similarities between saussurean semiotics and wittgensteinean picture-theory of language? I know they are form different philosophical traditions, but in the end they seem similar, right?
>>7975446
Austerlitz by W. G. Sebald.
Fucking incredible how time doesn't flow chronologically in his novels, but rather seems to accumulate at the present moment, giving every situation and every sentence the weight of the entire catastrophe of the history of man. Like Walter Benjamin's Angel of History, the main character and the reader looks upon layers and layers of rubble stacked on top of each other.
How do Williams other novels compare to Stoner?
I haven't seem them mentioned.
>>7979500
For the biopolitical subjectivation of man by medicine, law and social relations, see Kafka. Or Camus, maybe.
For philosophy, see Foucault's "The Birth of the Clinic".
>>7978368
100 Years of Solitude. Deep ideas, but surface level in a good way. Huge page turner.
Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie has the same quality to it, but isn't quite as deep.
why does everyone on /lit/ write in a way that makes them think they are writing like super smart or something
why cant they just write normally? without the pretentious shit
>>7982227
Because they're young, and judging from the memes, stuck-up
>>7975585
Seems like you need a lot of knowledge of important Italians of the era to get the most out of it. I read it without knowing anything and still enjoyed it like that but there are many situations where you are expected to know why some dude who you've probably never heard of before is where he is.
>>7982227
I don't see anything wrong with adding some flavor to your writing, specially on the literature board. Maybe they just take the opportunity to practice their writing skills.
>>7982151
Maybe try Fate of Reason, by Beiser, plus some overview of Kant and/or the Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics and the Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals (and if you can handle those, try the first and second Critiques). Most philosophers take Kant's ideas to be much more important and interesting than Schopenhauer's, though, so maybe you should just read Kant.
Who is the philosopher in this picture?
Yes, I'm a pleb.
>>7976341
Conceptual Roots of Mathematics - J. R. Lucas
does /lit/ have a Gaddis chart? im curious about the easiest order to read his novels
>>7983416
Hah, I thought I was the only person on earth who read that one. It was fairly interesting.
I recommend "Philosophy of Mathematics: Structure and Ontology" by Stewart Shapiro.
>>7983683
Just read The Recognitions, you don't need to have a safe path to do something.
>>7982511
heidegger
>>7983713
I can't find The Recognitions in Spanish (yes I'll read him translated. I have J.R., Carpenter's Gothic and Agapē Agape. Do you recommend any order?
>>7983731
I don't think it has been translated.
>>7975446
I'll give grade to each one, since it hasn't been that many
Emma (B+, quite engaging but ultimately rather boring)
Invisible Man (B, interesting but not a huge fan of Ellison's prose)
Wuthering Heights (B-, very emotionally charged and some heartbreaking moments, but ultimately the story feels much to scattered to ever be truly engrossing)
The Trial (A-, very surreal, very thought provoking)
The Lord of the Rings (A+, what can I say that hasn't been said a thousand times? Masterful world-building, lyrical prose, pop-fiction meets literature in spectacular fashion)
>>7983731
>yes I'll read him translated
WHY?
WHY?
WHY?
>>7982511
He is not a philosopher. He is a pseudo-intellectual and nonsense-peddler called Alain Badiou.
>>7983819
because I trust the translator's translation better than my own
>>7976108
Twists that come completely out of nowhere are only enjoyable if they make sense to the reader afterwards
Fore-hinting displays skill on the author's part, but isn't inherently enjoyable to read
>>7976971
It works in comedies
The website for /lit/ writes a book is down. Does anyone happen to know what happened?
I was looking around for the files.
>>7983908
What is this retardation? Mediocre cuntpraiser, go get raped an unlimited number of times.
>>7975430
Does anyone remember the Count of Monte Cristo? Is Eugenie Danglars gay?
To what extent is Kant's refutation of Humean/Lockean epistemology similar to Plato's soul or Aristotle's passive intellect as the ordering mechanism of perceptions?
Is there standard commentary on this?
To what extent is the Skinner / Chomsky thing similar to Hume & Locke / Kant? Is it a standard comparison at all?
Did Pynchon start writing easier with his newer novels? Even Lot 49 overwhelmed me, but I read the first page or two of Bleeding Edge on amazon and it was actually pretty readable, and even fun. So yeah, what happened here? Or does it get much harder later on?
Also opinion ona German version of it? I read both the German and English version side by side and it seems like it is a good translation. I'm asking because I can snatch a copy of the German one for real cheap in great condition.
>>7986632
basically, yes, common sentiment is the earlier ones are better
>>7975430
is it better to read nonfiction or fiction?
>>7986740
It's better to read what you want rather than what others tell you to. Do you have no will or desire of your own?
>>7986632
He matured as a writer.
As another way of looking at it, one could say he felt up to the challenge of reaching a wider audience.
>>7986749
I have desire, but my time is limited. I usually read fiction, but recently started reading nonfiction on a more regular basis. I was hoping I could hear some opinions about the merits of both, because I don't get as much enjoyment out of fiction as I used to. I have much of the canon left to read, so I am wary about reading nonfiction exclusively.
>>7986740
It is better to read fictionalized non-fiction.
Think romans à clef, and so on.
Which Edition of Moby Dick do you recommend?
>>7986800
why?
Any recs for historical nonfiction? I don't read too much, but I loved Tecumseh: a Life, and The River of Doubt.
>>7986812
Dependent on what? Like what's nicest? On aesthetic? What factors do you want your recommendation based on?
>>7975430
i know this is asked alot but
where do i go after the odyssey?
i've nearly finished and i want to read philosphy but idk where to start, stoics are probably the main interest
What bible edition is best to read?
>>7986829
I'm reading Barbarous Mexico right now and it's really interesting, but I'm mexican so maybe I'm biased. The book is a socio-political essay by Kenneth Turner on the state of Mexico before the revolution, as the country submitted to the rule of dictator Porfirio Diaz, and all the atrocities my countrymen suffered. Mexico had full-blown slavery in the 20th century. I find the book really cool because Turner is a journalist, and to get his information he goes to Mexico and masquerades as a rich businessman looking to invest millions.
>>7986989
KJV, King James Version. Naturally. Unless you have a hard time reading the english.
>>7986989
Oxford Annotated
Reread KJV later on when you've already read the Bible in a more comprehensible form and know what books / sections you like, so you can revisit them without sitting through ten billion miles of KJV shit you have to try really hard to figure out and constantly realize it was unimportant cruft.
Also reading Bible without scholarly annotation / exegesis is a terrible idea anyway.
Try reading Oxford Annotated alongside these
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152
Downloaded a book off genlib, but it won't open in calibre, says it's DRMed. Any idea why that could be, what am I doing wrong?
Got the latest version of DRM tools and all. Anyone want to give it a try? rghost dot net/6PdpmMVVy
>>7986959
I'm looking for a edition that has everything in it and feels/looks kinda nice.
>>7977220
turn of the screw is good if you like yourself some good creepypasta
>>7978326
you might check out some of those "on this day in history" calendars or try reading through generalized books of trivia.
>>7986828
Both because you asked, and because your original question is seeped in false dichotomy.
Anything like Storm of Steel? Or like All Quiet on the Western Front?
>>7990890
i think you mean steeped
Who here reads general introductions to topics such as the Cambridge Companions series, The Blackwell Guides, or OUP's A Very Short Introduction series?
What's your opinion on them?
It seems to me that they're quite good reads if you know little or nothing about the subject (e.g. I'm reading the Very Short Introduction to Marquis de Sade now... somewhat interesting.), but if you're already kind of knowledgeable on the subject you'll see how general they sometimes are and how many sweeping statements they contain (especially the Very Short Introductions).
Obviously they don't pretend to be more than introductions, so it's not fair to expect more of them, but anyway... I'm rambling
>>7979304
You know what's an even quicker read than a 300-page book?
A 200-page book.
>>7991540
They are hit and miss, but I love them. If you're even slightly critical, you can just read five easy ones in a short period, and then you'll have a nice little toolbox of concepts and basic contextual markers that make the real thing much easier to approach.
I agree with you about the Very Short Intros. They can be spotty - it's because a lot of series like this just commission the author, some scholar with reasonable credentials, to write an intro without having too much interference in what he actually does. Sometimes the author will railroad it into something narrower than it should be, or just do a poor job.
I also really like the Guide for the Perplexed series. It has similar problems, occasionally, but some of them are REALLY great, and they can be digested quickly.
My friend and I joke about how many of our professors have little tells that they are more familiar with their generation's equivalent of "very short intros" or "digests," because they say things that are more representative of the digest than the original author. You'd be surprised how many professional academics know two or three of their favourite scholars down pat, but mostly have their Kant from Wikipedia.
On that note Durant's intro to Kant in The Story of Philosophy is nice.
>>7984295
Who am I prasing? Im simply stating that a professional translator is better at translating than I am
What's the difference between an introduction, a prologue, a preface, and a foreword?
>>7991540
At least for philosophy, which is my field, Cambridge Companions and Blackwell Guides are on a level very different from OUP's very short introductions. The former are collections of essays by specialists, usually addressing pretty advanced issues in some detail, and are intended for people who have some knowledge of the field, or at least of some closely related field. Neither are the sort of thing that one normally reads cover to cover. Rather, the reader picks and chooses the chapters that is relevant to her interests at the moment. The Cambridge Companions, in particular, are better for getting deeper into some aspects of a topic, rather than getting an overview. The articles in them are often meant to further some current debate, rather than simply give a survey. Basically they're like collections of academic articles.
Similarly, sort of, for Oxford handbooks and compantions, Routledge handbooks, etc. The Routledge Philosophy of Language Handbook is a whole different ball game from the Routledge Introduction to Philosophy of Language. Both are very good, but serve different purposes.
How do I get my hands on new copies of french books? I want to find a good edition of "Émile, ou De l’éducation" but I have no idea what publishers are decent. Is buying on Amazon viable or should I find another site on which to shop? French Barnes and Noble? I don't want to wait until something shows up on the French shelf of my favorite used bookseller.
>>7986989
The best I've read has been the NET Bible.
lumina.bible.org
Annotations to understand the reasoning behind some translations; notes for better understanding of the historical aspects. But overall, the translation is so damn readable. I honestly think its Psalms is a lot more poetic than the KJV.
>>7991612
Prologue. Only use a prologue in fiction. It comes BEFORE the actual beginning of the story to introduce characters or to explain past events or history that might need to be explained, or to generally intrigue the reader. It's a great place to provide information relevant to your story without have to go through flashbacks or torturous dialogue in your first few chapters. Keep it short. Bear in mind many people skip it!
Epilogue. Only use an epilogue in fiction. It comes AFTER the story in order to provide some conclusion when the story leaves something hanging. Don't include plot spoilers in case someone reads it before the story!
Foreword. A foreword (NB NOT 'forward'), are words BEFORE the main text which are NOT written by the author. Someone else tell readers WHY they should read the book. This is the place for a guest celebrity or author to praise and introduce the book. It should make an emotional connection with the reader. A foreword should always be 'signed off' by someone other than the author.
Preface. A preface explains HOW the book came about. It is similar to a foreword, but it is written BY the book's author.
Introduction. An introduction does what it implies: it introduces WHAT follows as a concise overview for the reader.
Afterword. An afterword is similar to a foreword except that it comes AFTER the main work instead of before it. Another purpose is to respond to critical remarks made about a previous edition.
>>7992296
thank you
>>7992106
yeah, just go to french amazon and buy the used editions. assuming you live in us, so book+shipping will probably cost you about $15 total. not great for a used books but i guess if you want to read it in french there you go.
I'm looking for a short-ish poem (about 15-25 lines) to read. Any recs? I'd prefer if it was written during Classical Antiquity or is a postmodern poem.
Any good websites that have quality poetry on different subjects/topics?
Most websites want me to browse by author and that provides no help at all.
why is raskolnikov such a selfish dickhead?
What's the edgiest thing you've ever written?
>>7992516
A short story about a guy who gets a face transplant because everyone thinks he jeffrey dahmer. Things get pretty silly
>>7992420
he's crazy
that's kinda the point ya dingus
>>7975430
I finished my novel and have been polishing it for half a year and got the original content do not steal document. Now... what do?
Seriously I don't know whether to self-publish, do it onine or go from publisher to publisher expecting a miracle.First novel btw
Who is considered the best translator of Sophocles? Or Aeschylus?
I'm looking at buying the Norton Critical Edition of Metamorphoses translated by Charles Martin, would anyone recommend this translation?
>>7975430
just finished the Epic of Gilgamesh, can someone recommend some good essays/analysis on the subject?
>>7982511
How to fuck do you even go about understanding what is written. That's my mine problem with philosophy, that it's usually written in such a complex way that it just goes over my head.
inb4 hur dur ur dum
What are some good publishers of hardcover books?
>>7992571
Don't self-publish. People automatically distrust the quality of self-published books. Send it to a lot of publishers. Make sure the first pages are excellent. Those are what sell your book to the publisher. If no one is interested, so be it. That then means your writing is not good enough. Make sure you've sent it to as much publishers as possible though, before concluding that.
>>7992516
A school shooting told from the point of view of the shooter, without making the shooter seem like a sympathetic or pitiable person. It was an experiment to see if I could write about real-life horrors in an unconventional way. It was kinda crap. I wrote it in my native language and forgot about it until now.
is he a hack?
Any mexibros here? I'm almost done reading México Bárbaro and have a newfound interest for the history of my country. What books do you recommend? I'm not really looking for dry encyclopedic-type stuff that just spits out dates and events, though.
Be patient and help me if I'm misunderstanding Witty. I'm a bit of an idiot.
What are the limits of language games?
Is the word I misuse on accident, that believe it to mean something for many years, as valid and 'real' as other words? Doesn't that conflict with private language?
Does anyone have pdfs of any of Karl-Otto Apel's books?
I'm in heavy need.
>>7996718
Finish your ESL course before submitting a question.
>>7996735
My bad. I rearranged my question multiple times as I tried to articulate it.
Of course I noticed the mistakes after I posted it.
Just who is this butterfly guy?
Just finished Stoner for the first time.
There's a piece of him living on in his (probably unremembered, based on the beginning of the book) book, so it doesn't matter that his life was garbage and everything he loved (wife, daughter, lover) went to shit? He committed his life to the school, lives on in the school (kind of), and so it was all kind of worth it?
Am I close?
>>7996837
what makes you think that there's the implication that "it was worth it"? I got the "none of it matters" sentiment at the end desu.
fuck this board. it has gone down the shitter in the past few months and the number of shitposting threads are now outnumbered by low effort threads asking shitty questions. I've been coming here less and less because of the decline in the quality of threads and posts.
Does anyone know any other decent forums to lurk at?
What english books would you recommend for a non-native speaker aged ~12 ?
My mother wants my little sister to read some shit in english for school and asked me what she could read, obviously said "Harry Potter" but my sister read that in german already and doesnt want to read the same book twice.
I tried thinking back to my own time in school, but it's kinda too long ago and I can barely remember what I read in the first few years of learning englisch.
What are some good kids novels for that age group ? Genre doesnt really matter.
Alright guys I fucked up.
In my college poetry class I plagiarized a poem that my friend showed me a while ago. But I changed it, and imo, made it better.
The professor really liked it and now is trying to get me to submit it to magazines and shit. What do I say? About 50% of the lines, as well as the original idea come from my friend.
>>7999550
tell your friend about it but don't tell him that your profesdor has read it and just show hom your revision. if he's fine with it then tell your professor that your friend allowed you to modify it. give credit to him as well.
>>7999550
I would probably ask him about it. It's an ethical issue more than anything else; as long as his poem isn't published, you can't get 'done' for plagiarism. But transporting 50% of the lines from his poem to yours unchanged is more than pastiche or imitation, it's theft, and artistically dishonest. I wouldn't want to be published with that on my conscience.
>>7999514
Catullus looks interesting. Any specific poems by him?
I want to read about authenticity, aesthetics, and absurdism. In that order. What books would you recommend?
>>7999610
The reaaaally famous one is 16, the filthiest poem ever written. Otherwise try 101.
>>7999635
Holy shit that poem is nasty. I'm definitely reading more of his stuff. Thanks anon!
>>7999619
The recognitions
![the-catcher-in-the-rye-cover-6c8dab7d64192277315d6bf528d6f7b2[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Qzok9SN.jpg "the-catcher-in-the-rye-cover-6c8dab7d64192277315d6bf528d6f7b2[1].jpg")
Just finished Catcher in the Rye for my first time, if you want to know the truth. Anyone have links for some good analysis or reader theories about it? Clever reviews or anything?
I feel like I was probably overanalyzing things as I read, but I'd like to see what other people thought about as well.
>>7995697
Thanks. I May try to post some stories on wattpad. Is it any good?
>>7994392
I have it, can confirm that it is probably one of the better ones out there as of now. I find Norton to be very reliable quality-wise with pretty much everything they release or endorse.
Is there any way to use #bookz if you're on a chromebook?
>>8001681
Look up IRC clients that run on apple.
>>7975466
>though at this point it is so mainstream that literature might be the pimple while shallow plot-drivel is the ass
>One of the books you recommended, from the 1930s, makes the exact same complaint
>>8001691
Am I being rused?Seriously, I'm figuring the web client I was using can't do dcc to download books or lists, or else I just don't know how to use dcc.
Would anyone be willing to give me feedback on a 5k word short story I wrote? It's about a journalist who goes to an insane asylum and his ideals of sanity are confronted.
>>8001757
Post
>>8001777
>5k words
>post
>?
>>8001782
what is pastebin
>>8001784
http://pastebin.com/LjNL6FxM
>ayy
Does anyone here follow (or have) any good blogs?
>>7992396
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems
>>7999915
“If there is an amateur reader still left in the world—or anybody who just reads and runs—I ask him or her, with untellable affection and gratitude, to split the dedication of this book four ways with my wife and children.”
― J.D. Salinger's dedication for Raise High the Roof Beam, Carpenters & Seymour: An Introduction
>>7992516
A short story about a guy who beats the shit out of a homosexual biker who tried to score with him in a restroom.
Where the fuck do I find a translated copy of Mandragola?
>>7977236
nah. murakami is enjoyable. maybe not the next candidate for entry into the canon, but he is fun to read.
>>7999476
his dark materials, goosebumps books, tom sawyer, or just any typical kid-lit. the leviathan series by scott westerfield is good. eragon is also pretty good for that age group.
>>7999550
try saying no to your professor.
>>7999476
Alice, Earthsea, Chronicles of Ancient Darkness (better than the name suggests), that King Arthur one, Sutcliff in general.
>>8002220
>eragon is also pretty good for that age group.
It isn't, although it's fun. Legitimately better to read the Belgeriad, which itself is also poorly written in prose, plot (which matters), and message.
Does anyone have an epub to a literary work from Andorra?
>>7975430
Any books that manage to juxtapose seriousness with comedy? Maybe a black comedy?
>>8002289
The entire genre of tragicomedic theatre? Try Massinger. Or if you're a modern babby, Beckett or Stoppard.
>>8002333
Ahh yes I remember Rosencratz and Guilderstein are dead from high school, that's for reminding me.
>>8002635
say that you arent interested in being a published poet. If that would look weird or if you are publishing, then you just said your answer.
Does anyone here seriously cover their paperbacks in an extra layer of plastic to protect them?
>>8003003
No. Why would I do that? I read books to -- read them, not to have them look good. Especially if I bought a paperback.
>>8003040
And how do you handle your hardbacks?
>>8003100
Normally, but I won't throw it around or anything.
![S5702-lg[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/fkrOIi2.jpg "S5702-lg[1].jpg")
What are some good books set on the Prohibition?
Mainly fiction, but anything goes.
>>8002289
Catch 22, but only at the end.
>>8003103
I tend to be extra careful, I feel guilty if my books get the cover scratched or anything.
Maybe I should worry less.
>>8003131
It doesn't really matter, to be honest. Either way.
I'm going to start a /lit/ press
featuring writers from /lit/, who can submit their work
or I might see it on the critique threads, and pick it up
any thoughts?
>>8003003
I unironically do this.
Any books on sewers? (not including Les Mis.)
Preferably historical nonfic.
>>8003142
you should make a skype group or something
>>8004234
How about that one were the monk related sewage to disease rate
Sup anons. Do you need to read Iliad and Odyssey before reading Plato?
This literature thread makes me want to curb stomp a baby bonobo ape you piece of shit. talk about philosophy you faggots
>>8004667
Why don't you go frame a discussion to attract people with similar interests and proclivities you weak willed little shit?
When I read I imagine that all characters are 2D and I'm actually watching an anime. This method actually helped me to get more serious about reading. I read around 75-100 pages a day now.
Anyone does anything similar?
>>8004777
I was going to tell you my real opinion but KEK has indicated that you are beyond reproach.
>>8004828
>this nigga mad cuz he be able to read only 10 pages a day
>>8004855
Verily, it is true, O great disciple of Kek.
TRUMP IS JUST A SHAVEN ZIZEK
HOW HAS NO ONE ELSE NOTICED THIS
IT'S THE SAME FUCKING PERSON
>>8004864
huh. no wonder i want to fuck that bastard.
>>7975430
who should i read before i read nietzche?
other than greeks, i mean someone a little more contemporary.
>>8004934
Stirner :^)
>>8004934
schopy and le depressed nordic man
What's the name of that greek or roman play where the women wanted or talked about going to the senate dressed as males?
>>7975430
Does anybody rate Charles Martin's translation of Metamorphoses? I'm thinking of ordering the Norton Critical Edition of Metamorphoses.
>>8005978
Thesmophoriazusae?
>>8004667
this isn't /phil/ plen. get out of my board.
Does anyone know why Alexander Pope's translation of the Odyssey uses the Roman names of the gods as opposed to the Greek?
>>8003108
Bump
>>8006161
gatsby is the only one I can think of
>>7995462
That's why you start with the Greeks and learn how to spell
>>8006113
>Pope's translation
>translation
hahahaha
Good one, anon!
Pope can write some pretty poems but what you are looking at is by no means a translation, it's a remake at best.
Anyone here read Been Down So Long It Looks Like Up To Me? If so, got any similar works to recommend?
I found Farina to be unique and inventive, his prose is funny and flows so well. The scenes written in stream of consciousness was just too good.
>>8006021
I thought this was a joke name, made up on the spot, a mocking pseudo-Greek phrase.
Turns out it is real.
I'll fuck off to the gardens of the plebeians now.
>>8004777
Time to remove yourself from this plane of existence, for your presence makes it worse.
