Why isn't Asimov even mentioned around here?
Isn't he a meme here too?
"Good ideas, bad prose"
-/lit/ on Asimov
we mostly talk literary fiction
the sci-fi people stick to their own threads
>>8236797
>I've been here for hours, and there's still no mention of Asimov
Isn't there a sf general up? Ask them what you should think
>>8236797
science fiction isnt literature
>>8236906
You're not a reader
>>8236906
>>8236797
He introduced some novel and interesting ideas, but his prose is bleak and his futurology is shallow. For a /lit/erary science fiction try Lem.
>>8236906
If Ulysses was set in a spaceship, would it still be literature?
>>8236993
yes
the appeal of Ulysses is the sounds of the words. setting barely has anything to do with it
he only used Dublin as a broad example that could really be any city/space city
>>8237003
It would be nice if you defined what makes something literary.
>>8237003
Genre is genre. It's okay to like and not like things. Don't be such a child.
>>8237015
Wikipedia:Literary fiction comprises fictional works that hold literary merit; that is, they involve social commentary, or political criticism, or focus on the human condition. Literary fiction is deliberately written in dialogue with existing works, created with the above aims in mind and is focused more on themes than on plot, and it is common for literary fiction to be taught and discussed in schools and universities.
Literary fiction is usually contrasted with popular, commercial, or genre fiction. Some have described the difference between them in terms of analyzing reality (literary) rather than escaping reality (popular). The contrast between these two subsets of fiction is controversial among critics and scholars.
literature: written artistic works, especially those with a high and lasting artistic value:
>>8237015
Literally from wiki
>any writing deemed to have artistic or intellectual value, often due to deploying language in ways that differ from ordinary usage.
Sci-fi falls in for my money.
>>8237026
Say it simpler: literature either has good prose or good ideas.
>>8237035
And Asimov didn't have good ideas?
>>8237031
in the broad sense literature is anything written which is like your broad sense of art
>>8237018
What about works like pic related or Bacon's New Atlantis where do they fall categorically?
>>8237045
plot vs theme
>>8237031
are you actually comparing modern art and literature?
>>8237060
and then goes on to claim it doesn't fit
>>8237054
does it involve social commentary, or political criticism, or focus on the human condition?
If so its literary fiction
>>8237060
Educate a pleb.
Couldn't literature just be anything that's written down?
>>8237045
He did, but too few compared to the volume of his works. Apart from these ideas, everything he wrote is pure genre fiction.
>>8237076
I'm writing a story where there's a thin science fiction surface, but it's main reason for being is for social commentary, political criticism, with a focus on the human condition.
Would that be permissible?
>>8236826
The best part is that the entirety of "I, Robot" is an exercise in showing how the 3 laws of robotics are a bad idea, but that doesn't stop low-quality people such as 4channers into thinking that the 3 laws are great and should/do apply to everything.
>>8237105
I guess genre are just general ideas floating around anyway and there is no saying you can't mix them or that they can't fit under either or
sci-fi focused on social issues is sometimes called soft sci-fi
>>8237022
I didnt say you couldnt like genre i am not the dood they are replying to.
>>8237105
It depends on whether or not what you're writing conforms to the publisher's political beliefs.
>>8236797
He was such an awful writer. An excellent ideas man, but just the worst writer, especially at dialogue.
>>8237493
I would never.
An old thread asked if there were any taboos left, and I said something to the effect of anti-capitalism, and that an idea I had in mind for a story would land me in hot water. Anons made fun of me of course, but this election cycle is just proving my point. I wouldn't be persecuted like Assange or Snowden, but my story would be censored and ignored.
It's because Lit likes the separation. If you put everything together, then everything is the same and they cant live the literary lifestyle that requires massive egos to sustain itself.
Asimov was a scientist with an imagination. His prose isn't very pretty, its quick and scientific.
And, if the /lit/izens in here are going to use the definition that literary transcends genre by being a social political or a discussion on the human condition, then pretty much every popular science fiction writer is literary fiction and as they say, the plot doesn't matter.
Discussing things such as how our technology and nature to learn, know, create, and also discussion about human nature and how it differs from person to person because of our scientific advancement, that's science fiction.
Of course most science fiction writers have also just written about alien tits and how they went back in time to save a Dame and then fuck her, its entirely not the whole of science fiction.
I aspire to write science fiction which is fun, but more importantly explores heavy themes and emotions. I want it to be taken seriously so that the perks of the scientific and the artistic can perhaps combine and make something new. I certainly don't like the gimmicky method which science and literary fiction are going these days, and think hard science literature books could be the accessible compromise I want to see in this world.
>>8237055
His books are all theme
/lit/ dislikes genre literature like /fit/ dislikes biceps curls: in the end they still do them anyway, but don't let anyone know.
>>8237105
>but it's main reason for being is for social commentary, political criticism, with a focus on the human condition.
You're forcing your childish ideology into something and writing yet another 'sci-fi, but with transnigger otherkins (ayylmaos)'
>>8237632
lol anticapitalism is far from a taboo you fucking moron
>>8236831
While sci-fi isn't as technically good as lots of literary fiction, I believe what Ray Bradbury said about sci-fi is true. There is lots of meaning and literary merit in some sci-fi. What someone could be saying about the future can apply to what the world is like today.
While Asimov's prose isn't that good, and everything he writes is purely based on dialogue between characters, he has interesting ideas. He was a pretty smart guy.
>>8237847
>transnigger otherkins
No. They don't make it either. Only women. It's an anti-utopian. A nice place, but I'm honest about it not being perfect.
>Childish
Says the poltard
>far from a taboo
Tell that too Assange. This revolution gets past its "political revolution" baby-step and you'll see this police state round up agitators and eventually start to kill them again.
You're delusional.
>>8237847
"Transnigger otherkins". I'm gonna guess you aren't the best authority on literary merit.
>>8237881
>anybody that says thing i dont like must be from pol
Every 'rebellious' teenager is anti-capitalism.
Anti-capitalism has been in pop culture since the '60s. It's more of a taboo to be anti-government than anti-capitalism. Anarchists get more flak than socialists.
>>8237890
The transnigger otherkins are aliens, the aliens are a metaphor for people uncomfortable in their own body.
There is no literary merit to genre fiction written by somebody like butterfly.
>>8237905
>anti-government than anti-capitalism. Anarchists get more flak than socialists.
Your point being?
I'm an anarchist, I'm against the state and its lifesblood capitalism.
>There is no literary merit to
A sociopolitical discourse on what the world would do if men and women couldn't produce anymore males. It's pretty heart wrenching to write actually. I hope I can do the themes some justice.
>>8237905
Yes I understood that. However it's not even close to all of science fiction or even a lot of it. There's hard science, dystopian, novels which exists mainly to provide political views, and so many other great instances of science fiction like "I am Legend", "I robot", "10,000 leagues", "I have no mouth and I must scream", "Rendezvous with Rama" "Starship troopers" "Life-Line" (Everything else Heinlein wrote was extremely deep for science fiction.) Even the Pulp writer Robert F Young had taken a break from bullshit rescues of damsels in space to write some theme heavy works.
So, take your dumb transnigger shit to pol, where science is still just a dumb anti Christian construct by the joos, and ask them why nothing they've ever said has ever had an equivalent in critical acclaim.
>>8237905
>It's more of a taboo to be anti-government than anti-capitalism. Anarchists get more flak than socialists.
That's exactly the point. Anarchism is 'properly' anti-capitalist, which is naturally anti-government, while socialism provides a much milder outlet for anti-capitalist sentiment without the same perceived dangers.
>>8237826
In either case, the same attitude makes sense. If someone is mainly focusing on bicep curls out of ignorance, and for superficial reasons, it's probably a good idea for such a person to move past that and broaden the nature of what they are doing and what they wish to accomplish.
>>8237106
>but that doesn't stop low-quality people such as 4channers into thinking that the 3 laws are great and should/do apply to everything.
no one said this
>>8237951
>A sociopolitical discourse on what the world would do if men and women couldn't produce anymore males
No literary merit
>>8237960
I like good sci-fi a lot.
What butterfly is writing is not good sci-fi. Butterfly is a walking stereotype that I still believe is a troll, ze is on the same level as the people that removed Lovecraft from that fantasy award because he was so-called racist. These people believe their shallow ideology must dominate everything, and fail to see any value in literature other than as a medium to spread their ideology.
Modern science is an anti-theist construct btw, so was Enlightenment science. The delusional use it, like modern morons use genre fiction, to spread their shallow ideology.
>>8237990
I'm speaking of the common view, not the accurate one.
>>8238081
>Butterfly is a walking stereotype that I still believe is a troll, ze is on the same level as the people that removed Lovecraft from that fantasy award because he was so-called racist
To dismiss what I'm writing on strictly political grounds is one thing, fine, but to consistently get me so wrong–
Are you really mentally challenged or is this just a troll?
>These people believe their shallow ideology must dominate everything, and fail to see any value in literature other than as a medium to spread their ideology.
In the story I account for the future left and right. There really should be something for everyone (Unless you're one of those people still dreaming King Arthur will return, or that Fascism is the way.
>Modern science is an anti-theist construct btw, so was Enlightenment science. The delusional use it
Wacky. So you believe in a theistic science?
>>8238120
>but to consistently get me so wrong–
I've read hundreds of your posts and read your awful narrative/prose in critique threads; I fully comprehend the extent of your shallowness. I would sooner put my faith into the writings of a chuuni than your glorified YA dystopia freedom fighter nonsense.
Have you heard of the Divergent series? What you're writing is basically that but faintly less teenage-oriented.
>In the story I account for the future left and right
Where you hold a blatant bias for your own dogma.
>Wacky. So you believe in a theistic science?
Science as a whole is irrelevant.
>>8238081
That was pretty spooky.
>Thinking that butterfly even matters.
>Thinking Lovecraft wasn't racist (its not a reason to take him away from something)
>Signaling that you think modern science is a anti god Construct just because of pop culture scientists
>Thinking that you aren't spreading your idealogy right now.
>Honestly not getting that the purpose of writing politically is that you speak for yourself.
You sound like a reverse SJW. You don't really have a problem with spewing opinion as fact, you just don't like that your ideas arent popular.
Anyway, the point is that even all of this is irrelevant to science fiction. There is so much more.
>>8238171
>Thinking Lovecraft wasn't racist
Him being racist is irrelevant to a damn award made in his image because he was objectively influential.
>Signaling that you think modern science is a anti god Construct just because of pop culture scientists
There is a creeping mindset in Enlightenment, late 19th century, and Modern science that genuinely believes essentially everything is known, and thus there cannot be a god because it is unneeded, or some trash like that.
The pop culture scientists reflect it, but it is present in the field as a whole.
I've spent over a decade in it, trust me.
>Thinking that you aren't spreading your idealogy right now.
Are you illiterate?
>>8237881
If Ursula Le Guin can write approximately 1000 novels where she pushes various kinds of feminist socialism with a thin sci-fi backdrop, so can you.
Being a novelist is the last respectable occupation for anarchists. Nobody is going to imprison you, and your ideology is not even sufficiently edgy to be interesting anymore.
>>8238179
>Irrelevant
I just said that. I mentioned it because itmsounds like you were signaling
>Modern science.
It's not some thing that Bill Nye and Tyson make into being. Its a huge broad term which encapsulates every single amazing tech in the world. But again, there's a signal.
The grand design (the book where the theory you are bitching about is written) is an answer to theists who say "if there was a big bang who made it bang?" It attempts to explain that physics is entirely responsible for the big bang. Also, even the pop culture meme scientists constantly saw there is much we don't know.
Signal some more.
>>8238192
>anymore
It hasn't been edgy since the 50's when literally every author and their dog declared themselves philosophically Anarchist.
>>8237012
>setting barely has anything to do with it
Holy shit, has there ever been a more misinformed post? Setting has everything to do with Ulysses you mong, Joyce even said that should Dublin burn down it could be rebuilt using Ulysses as an outline. Yes, Joyce said that if he could get to the heart of Dublin he could get to the heart of all cities, but this does not make the setting unimportant by any means. Many of the major themes, specifically those of Irish nationality, could not be set anywhere else in terms of the novel.
Have you actually read the book or just the Wikipedia page?
>>8236797
He hates his own work.
>>8238400
>Many of the major themes, specifically those of Irish nationality, could not be set anywhere else in terms of the novel.
And all of those themes, specifically those of Irish nationalty, are the least interesting aspects of Ulysses
Not that the person you're quoting isn't wrong, but you're overstating it
>>8238256
There was no election fraud, nor media suppression of any candidate. You are not going to be put on a watchlist for shitposting on /lit/ and /r/sandersforpresident. You are not special. Even self-identifying as an anarchist doesn't make you special. You will never write anything that poses any legal repercussions to you, unless you just flat out lose your mind and become the next Unabomber.
>>8238460
>Lel I was wrong but if you think I'm going to give up and let you be right you can fuck right off. No matter what stupid bullshit I learned from other litizens I say, you'll have to pry my concession from my cold, dead, hands.
>>8237826
What is the Starting Strength of literature?
Robots trilogy > Foundation trilogy
>>8236797
His late-career fiction is pretty underrated, and like Arthur C. Clarke his prose improved vastly during this period. When he wrote his most famous stories he was still a very young man with little experience. When he returned to science fiction and general fiction in the 70s and 80s it's clear that he had come a long way.
>>8239144
More like it was clear he was having some sort of decline in mental stability. His writing in the 40s and 50s is way more coherent and easier to digest - anything past that reads like a stream of consciousness fever dream
>>8239087
Aside from The Greeks? Because that's too obvious.
>>8237026
Ugh, that definition's annoying, especially for a comparison with sci-fi.
>social commentary, or political criticism, or focus on the human condition
>focused more on themes than on plot
>analyzing reality
...these are all very much characteristic features of sci-fi. It's probably the most explicitly idea-oriented type of fiction that exists.
Because he wrote a story about weird neighbors made of cotton candy.
