Have video games finally surpassed literature?
>>8212724
yep. now leave us to our inferiority.
I am going to make video games that will be studied for generations; either by critics, or psychologists.
is this bait?
how could video games (an industry plagued with rushed production and an emphasis on sales not content)
surpass literature?
I feel stupid for taking the bait....
>>8212724
I turned to literature after Video games didn't fill the gap any more.
They're cheaper, have richer stories and don't require you to look like a retard ignoring everything else around you.
Also, the $ value you get for the time you're reading is amazing.
>>8212737
Cheaper? Video games can be had for very cheap. Cheaper than most books I dare say. Accessibility is not limited to what's in print. The nature of a digital medium ensures even the rarest of games can be found online. Furthermore video games are much more interactive than books. You play a part, and can often influence the outcome of the story (see: mass effect)
>>8212736
Literature is the same way. Let's not forget many authors got paid by the word to create big bloated books. many of the great doorstoppers could be condensed to <300 pages.
>>8212737
>Cheaper than most books I dare say
I can get modern physical books second-hand for less than a $
>Accessibility is not limited to what's in print
e-books are cheap if you wan't do buy them. If you don't, you can always download them for free.
You can also read anywhere. Books last for hours and hours, you have unlimited quality contente. The same can't be said about video games. The market stagnated. Only a couple of titles per year are worth my time and money now.
Interaction is highly arguable, Imagination is interaction weather you believe it or not.
>>8212748
It's hard to get cheaper than free. Libraries, even college libraries, allow you to read books for free. I like Roguelikes, but Im sure thats not what you are talking about when it comes to video games surpassing literature(whatever the hell that would even mean).
bait thread/10
Stadsbiblioteket är minnsan första valet för tv-spelare, memskapare och dylikt, dagdrivare kort sagt
>>8212799
vars ska man annars få tag på böcker?
>>8212813
borkbork bork bork
>>8212737
>cheaper
Go to a library booksale or any major city where you can buy them from homeless guys that run mini sidewalk bookstores. I love talking to them and helping them out, especially because they aren't going to just beg for drug money. Point is you can buy great books for an average of $.50 US
>>8212813
Personliga samlingar. Kunskap och kultur är egendom, och egendom görs mindre av fördelning, för att inte tala om det aktuella värdet av bibliotekens utbud. KB, UUB och UB/LUB gör dugliga supplement.
>>8212736
It takes less effort to get more stimulation from them.
>>8212889
>judging a medium based on the ease in which it is consumed
Why?
Have orangutans surpassed baseball caps?
>>8212724
No, but you are on the right page, as far as I'm concerned. Medium has nothing to do with content; there is no real reason video games can't pass literature as art. Having said that, the current video game industry's marketing strategy tends towards get-rich-quick schemes in place of art.
>>8213001
>Medium has nothing to do with content
ROFL
because having multiple persons controlling different aspects of the production of an artwork couldn't POSSIBLY have a negative effect on its cohesiveness.
>>8212955
GOD BLESS YOU ANON
>>8212955
The orangatan market is bullish this year
>>8212955
Of Course
>>8213118
1. he didn't say it couldn't have an effect
2. cohesion =/= quality
3. even if it did, there are games made entirely by individuals, so what of them?
>>8212748
>1 ebook reader: $150
>as many ebooks as your computer can hold from libgen/bookzz: $0
>looks natural, is socially acceptable, and can help teach you more about the english language
>as many computer games as your computer can hold: $300+
>looks autistic trying to carry gaming around between classes or after studying or during lunch
>melts your rain into a nice soupy sludge that zombies will love slurping up
>>8212736
>I feel stupid for taking the bait....
The point is to take the bait, cus it makes you feel smart, or some other weird ego fulfillation.
>>8212724
Not even fucking close.
>>8213001
>Medium has nothing to do with content
Has anon ever been more wrong?
>>8212724
No.
A few years ago video games just reached the point of fairly decent plot driven story. All these walking sims still fail to be much more than a pretentious video game because contentwise they're still decades, if not centuries, behind art, literature, etc.
>>8212724
In what respect?
If I think of the most thought provoking game this decade, I'd say it's probably Undertale. While Undertale might be better than a lot of shitty books, it's literally nothing compared to any book with real literary value.
>>8212732
>tfw this is my actual goal and I'm just reading books to steal concepts and prose from
Video games are the final step before the total artform and ignoring them is willfully embracing irrelevance.
>>8213640
Nice bait
>dota
lol
>>8213640
>undertale
lol
>>8212724
That broken English in the picture says it all really.
>>8212896
I'm not sure why you're asking me. I'm here and not on /v/, aren't I?
But most people aren't very discerning when it comes to where they get their entertainment.
>>8213640
Lisa beats it (better handling of morality, writing that doesn't just strive to be emotionally manipulative, much better difficulty curve)
The Beginner's Guide has the most nuanced story-telling I've ever seen in a game and is (I believe) on par with many great books I've read, but people discount it because of its embrace of sentimentality and 2deep4u misdirection.
>>8212736
Book publishers put just as much if not more emphasis on sales
There are much more shitty books in YA genre than there are shitty video games put together
>>8213647
>Skyrim? Mass Effect 3? Call of Duty Modern Warfare X infiity warfare sponsored by mountain dew?
Stop baiting, please.
>>8212736
>(an industry plagued with rushed production and an emphasis on sales not content)
This has been a thing in literature for ages
IDK if i've witnessed it surpassing the best books but personally it isn't hard for me to see a few games every year as amazing art. Parts of pic related reminded me of Calvino's Invisible Cities.
>>8212748
Second-hand books are literally traded for pennies, and many are even free, like when libraries are making room on the shelves. When I was a poor student most of my bookshelf was filled with declassified books from the college library.
>>8212737
Are you me?
Reminder that for games to be high art, the gameplay has to not only reinforce the themes, but also not interfere with the internal consistency of the work. This means that, among other design choices, the traditional gameplay section/story section split disqualifies a game from being high art.
>>8213603
>melts your rain
Cute.
But you know the BRAIN actually benefits from playing games. Why not both? The books are cheap so you can easily afford your games as well
>>8213001
>aving said that, the current video game industry's marketing strategy tends towards get-rich-quick schemes in place of art.
Literature is exactly the same. There is a reason why crime fiction makes up 90% of the bookshop inventories
>>8213746
You should find another bookshop.
>>8212724
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmYrdMKC-d4
>>8213760
>are video games literature?
>not “as good as literature”
>Georges R. R. Martin
Do you seriously expect me to play it?
>>8213768
You sure showed him anon, dont play that vid.
if games can ever be considered artistic, they will be of either competitive or the puzzle variety. cleansed of the narrative category which should have stuck to literature, competitive and puzzle games do those things which only games can do. this is what happened with film, as well: the only "art" films are those that eschew (or at least subordinate to auxiliary roles) the categories of narrative and character in favor of visual experimentation.
>>8213791
of course this opens the door to more accurately judge the exemplary articles of the form; and the hegemony of Candy Crush and Call of Duty should speak volumes as to its aesthetic worth.
>>8213715
The cheapest bookstores are not even bookstores. Just second hand places like value village. But even there books will generally cost you $3-5 a piece. Library sales are cheaper but don't happen often enough.
>>8213863
As I said, the local library gave free books, like twice in a month. It would concern like five to ten books put on a shelf in the entrance. Regarding the second-hand store, mine frequently gives away books for 0.5$ to 1$. Of course it isn't luxury hardcovers but you can definitely find all the classics and pretty much everything else published as paperback.
Books have very little value per se and are frequently thrown away.
Video games are a medium where going "WHAT IF LIKE, KILLING PEOPLE IS BAD?!" gets treated like a massive "deconstruction" that treads groundbreaking territory. Or Chad Brosington going to Indonesia and doing drugs and being a white savior before saying "what have I become?!?!" while looking at his bloody hands wins a BAFTA.
Attempts to make actual art in the medium tend to fail because they're largely made by "arteeest" types who whine about how nobody respects their art when their attempts fail. Tale of Tales for example.
Best case scenario is you play a RPG or something that had the story written by Notable Genre Fiction Writer, or is drawing off their work, so you end up with a decent but otherwise generic and inoffensive story. Eg, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, The Witcher, etc.
>>8213881
Where do you live? I live in rural Canada so there aren't so many patrician stacks at the second hand shops (though it does make it more exciting when you find something good) around here and the actual used bookstores are nearly as expensive as buying from Amazon.
I'm sure if I went to the libraries and used bookstores in the GTA or Montreal they'd be cheap as fuck though
>>8212736
>an industry plagued with rushed production and an emphasis on sales not content
name one industry for which that is not true
>>8213937
It was a moderately small college-town in Europe (Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium). The bookshop I still buy from is located in a medium-sized European town (~200,000 inhabitants). There are classics, more obscure titles and many history manuals. Still a cheap edition but in nice condition. I would also notice that, unlike video games, classics and many fine authors can be found in second-hand stocks. Used video games sold remain mostly expensive—as far as I remember, a generic 70$ PS3 game can drop to 25$ ~ 30$—unless they are really old, like the Roller Coaster Tycoon and The Sims CDs found in “three for 5$” baskets. Once a book is published, it's very likely to appear in the used market for barely nothing.
>people seriously arguing over whether books or vidya have better "value for money"
Poor people are disgusting.
>>8213740
Because there's no comparison between the benefits of reading critically and playing video games.
>>8212799
En mann dricker vatten
>>8213735
>>8213729
>>8213704
>>8213791
>>8213933
You should play Mother 3 sometime. I think it is a great example of a game that was made to tell a story, instead of the other way around. i.e., the story is the excuse for the game. The writer, Shigesato Itoi, took a lot of time and care with how he wanted the game to look and play and feel, and he even rewrote the script a few times. Mother 3's prequel, Earthbound, is usually mentioned in these threads, but I feel that game works more as a fun parody of JRPGs than a game with focus and a clear message. Mother 3 is my favorite game of all time, and the reason I still play video games. Here's a longwinded but beautiful review of Mother 3 from tim rogers: http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=422
I love you /lit/!
>>8214639
To add to this, I think the final boss of this game is one of the few instances I can think of where the narrative's impact is heightened by the gameplay mechanics. If you know what I mean, it simply wouldn't be as poignant if you read it in a book or watched it in a film. Other games I can think of are Shadow of the Colossus and Ico.
Oh look, another
>If I can convince the world that games are art, I'll never have to read a book again!
thread
>>8214639
Thanks a lot for the recommendation. I enjoyed my time with the first earthbound game, but it was a little dated by the time I got around to playing it. I'll give Mother 3 a try tomorrow
>>8212736
>I feel stupid
That's what you get for reading books, you nerd.
>>8213647
Pathologic
Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey
Underrail
Age of Decadence
Planescape Torment
Vampire the masquerade bloodlines
>>8212889
Exactly. Which means, everything will be immersive to the average pleb. How will that evolve the artform?
It will degenerate into nothingness.
Literature and video games are so different I don't think games could ever surpass literature. I read books and I play games and I enjoy both in different ways. I'm wary of the notion of an art form surpassing another, but I'd imagine they'd have to be really similar, like literature and film. Has film surpassed literature?
>>8215725
Film has surpassed theatre, at least.
>>8215706
>SMT: Strange Journey
>not Persona 3
Gotta start with the greeks
>>8216198
nah
No video game has even come close to tackling the philosophical issues that literature has already covered and deconstructed to hell and back for centuries upon centuries.
All video games, even the "deep" ones deal in boring tripe and basic concepts like revenge, achieving a goal, depression, existentialism, war, the mind, what have you. Countless of books, some of which are timeless classics have already covered these subjects intensely and obviously far better than video games.
Video games, are, by definition forever doomed to just be escapist entertaining nonsense, rewards on a timer and not much else. I'm sorry to burst your bubble anon, and they will also never be art. (Especially as long as E3 exists, which is an utter embarrassment and is mocked yearly).
>>8217118
What are some themes deeper than "the mind?"
Don't say God.
>>8217127
Well, to be honest, nothing. As everything depends on our perception of it - and that is the mind.
So I would argue that no theme is deeper nor higher than the mind.
>>8212724
roll
>>8217138
rolling
>>8217131
I don't think you're the same anon
>>8217138
>rolling in epic bread
>>8217118
What about things like text adventures or visual novels? Interactive web pages? Where is the threshold at which interactivity renders it impossible to present deep themes in an artful fashion? Couldn't text adventures, and perhaps to a lesser exent Visual novels, be seen as extensions of certain types of literature? What about things that use the potential and convenience of computer technology to realize experimental literary techniques more conveniently--as a simple example, I'd rather read the Epub of Pale Fire or Infinite Jest with pop-up links to the footnotes rather than flip around and flip around? I think a creative author could go beyond choose-your-own adventure Hopscotch stuff or oodles of footnootes and come up with other interesting ways of formatting texts and bending narrative forms.
Could dialogue trees, stripped of their RPG roots, be interesting or useful as high literary devices? I dunno...I think we haven't had the right genius come along for any of this.
More importantly, the budget required for more low-fi kinds of games like text adventures and visual novels means more authorial control than games which rely on immersion by realistic graphics, games which need to make back a lot of sunk costs.
>>8217176
At what image-to-text ratio does a book become a graphic novel or, at the extreme end of the spectrum, a children's picture book? Does it matter if the author created the illustrations or just worked closely with the illustrator?
>>8217176
People that make video games aren't generally thinkers or philosophers.
They are essentially entertainers with a certain skill to make video games. Most people want to make video games because they are fun, not to impose meaning or create deeper themes because that would miss the target audience most games are for.
Therefore, because the creators lack any sort of philosophical thought (as there is no thought put into coding, it is a very mundane and monotonous task) no video game could overcome this barrier between other entertainment outlets like cinematography or literature.
It is forever doomed to be just that, games. And nothing else.
>>8217205
vid·e·o game
noun
plural noun: video games
a game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a computer program on a television screen or other display screen.
Which I elaborated on by saying that people who are good at manipulating images produced by a computer program are not generally philosophers nor thinkers and lack the mental capacity to produce deeper themes due to the restrictions of their monotonous and mundane craft.
>>8217197
imagine being this stupid
>>8217197
There is so much nonsense in this post, I don't even know where I would start. It's hard to believe someone so misinformed is confident enough in their thoughts to post them. You should read some game development blogs and maybe actually play a video game or two.
>>8217218
I'm not sure you know what "by definition" means.
>>8217218
coders don't create images for the screen
Not really, but there are a pack of great games that have stricken me harder than a lot of books I have read. It's all about how you utilize the medium to make your creation
>>8217226
They're also not very good thinkers. They're in the same business and in the same subcategory of video-game making.
When has the last time a video game produced really inspired and thought provoking thing other than "look at me i broke the 4th wall arent i meta".
why would someone want a deep ass story in a vg when you can fight giant robots with swords
>>8217218
What prevents someone with actual writing talent to work on a game, with game designers only giving him advice for better gameplay and bringing his vision to life?
>>8217234
>They're also not very good thinkers.
but they're not the only people who work on video games. there are plenty of different aspects to a video game. narrative, which seems to be the only example you have of where a game can be thought-provoking, is rarely ever handled by the coders, who you claim don't have the capacity to think deeply
and yes video games can and do make you think 'deeply' even if it's not about the greater questions of life -- and if this is what you think makes literature better than video games then you should probably leave /lit/. the quality of literature isn't determined by how thought-provoking it is
>>8217197
If coding is so mundane, doesn't that imply that a properly motivated author could learn to code if they felt it expanded their bag of tricks? There are musical programming languages that contemporary composers learn not to mention all the DAWs and notation programs that are almost necessary to learn to function in today's musical world and which have expanded the available musical techniques. The number musicians can do "traditional" stuff with pen-and-paper composition aAND know how to use the modern technology isn't a very large number, but there really are people who can do it all.
Again, how about simple things things that take advantage of e-readers' ability to hyperlink--say a book with song lyrics that link to music for the song. A soundtracked book would have been realyl inconvenient in the old days but now it's easy.
Even if video games proper are incapable of becoming lit, I think it's still realistic to hope that the unber of literary techniques can be expanded by computers. I agree with you about "video games" but disagree about "all interactive or computer-dependent media."
YOu're thinking of programmers trying to become philosophers or thinkers, not thinkers who decide to learn how to code. Again, there are dudes who have mastered "traditioanl" musical techniques and also incorporated recording technology and sequencing. Not a perfect analogy, I know, but I'm trying to illustrate how .
Also, just because deep themes are difficult to express in games and don't come across well doesn't mean that the people who made the game are shallow or not deep thinkers. If the medium is the limiting factor, why assume that it's the fault of the creators? Maybe even the greatest authors of all time wouldn't be able to do better just because it's a game--isn't that what you're implying?
Also, there have been great artists who are also great businessmen. It's almost necessary these days. Business is not a skill normally associated with being sensitive and philosophical--does that mmean that anyone who is good at promoting their work is automatically a hack? Do all artists have to be idiot savants of some kind?
>>8217257
ALso, the composers who use musical programming languages tend to be thought of as very "deep" or at the very least "academic" and "difficult" and requiring a specially trained type of audience.
Or painters or visula artists who learn how to use Photoshop. Photoshop can be a mundane tool to fix muffin tops and enlarge boobs or it can be used to make real art.
Isn't it time for the potential of the novel to be similarly extended by new technologies?
>>8217276
*visual artrists who can already paint and draw but want to combine tradition with new ways of expression.
>>8212724
Centuries long tradition of art surpassed b-because the tits look real tits now dude I swear to god
>>8217314
If you can see the cock going in does that mean the movie can't be art?
sliding scale of art:
text <ideas------------------immersion> videogames
>>8215706
>>8217380
Aren't there certain truths that are inherently post-literary and can't be conveyed with words? Not to mention the direct communication afforded by other art forms like painting or music. Wouldn't anything that could reconcile verbal and non-verbal modes of art be a good thing? I think that high amounts of INTERACTIVITY but not IMMERSION are correlated with not being literary, or even art.
And what kind of ideas? Wasn't Monopoly supposed to be some kind of anti-capitalist board game (not commenting on politics one way or the other just example of polemic-as-game)? Are there lessons that are learned better by experience, and more safely in the environment of a more immersive medium?
Maybe hte "message" of a game Papers Please is mundane but what kind of books can make a reader feel somehow RESPONSIBLE for an outcome? Does this feeling of responsiblity create any possibilities for deeper art? How much interactivity is required to create this feeling of responsibility, and is it more or less than what would make the work hopelessly gamified?
Video games are atrocious.
>>8217424
>high amounts of INTERACTIVITY but not IMMERSION are correlated with not being literary, or even art
Because interactivity still feels wearisome. Abandoning the passive position where now something can be asked of you, unlocking an area or character for example, that can be work (and only a secondary aspect of the game).
Immersion carries the notion that experiencing the work happens mostly by being there, fully aware, recognizing the spectacle and the ways it engages you.
>>8217234
the hierarchy of game developers goes designers>artists>coders
your post is like saying film will never be art because the people who maintain the cameras or deliver soy lattes to RDJ are just mindless worker ants, no shit but they're not the one with the creative controls
>>8217912
>cool looking game on kickstarter
>they don't have a programmer
>>8215706
>Underrail
pirated this yesterday, I like it a lot
>>8213642
I've been writing a story for a game for Vr that involves the protagonist being rendered a mute Robocop: nothing left but their brain and hand nerves .
The main theme explored is solipsism and disconnect and Cognito Ergo Sum
>>8218764
Sounds exciting, my issue right now is making a lose state perform a service for my overall narrativeI've got some ideas, but they're all too large scale atm
>>8218997
The lose state I'm building into my game is a real loss...not game-over but getting put into a situation you don't want to be in.
I have both emotional costs as well as if you play as a complete sociopath, you get put into a deprivation chamber out of your suit and are left there for a certain amount of time, real-time.
I might swap that out with a freedom-of-choice restriction module that keeps you from being a sociopath
here is the ultimate final list of video games that have surpassed literature
>>8219015
Ah, I'm trying to work within a more traditional frame right now with one loss state causing a lack of change and one which plays around with reincarnation and cycles of four
>>8219023
>icycalm
>>8219032
What's the context of the reincarnation? Sounds like Hindi something
DELETE THIS SORT OF THREAD.
FOR GOD'S SAKE, DELETE.
>>8219035
heroes are reincarnated as long as they die a heroic death (read: violent and actively resisting)
every time they die they are put into a new campaign (total of 4) carrying with them any on-hand items and learned skills. The only way to progress through certain areas is to obtain items or skills in other lives. I'm trying to figure out how to steer away from a leveling system while retaining satisfying growth right now
>>8213118
Most books have editors (sometimes multiple), publishers, etc as well.
Many games have one or two people in charge who provide the creative direction much as an author would.
The most artistically interesting thing about videogames isn't the storytelling, it's the creation and exploration of virtual dynamic spaces.
>>8212736
Video games and films are a visual medium which makes them automatically better. You can't look at a book and get a whole story or characters or environment out of it. You have to make that stuff up in your mind for better or worse. Why do you think there is so much debate over author intent? Because words can change meaning over time but when you see something on film or in game form you see exactly what the creators intended.
>>8219367
Seeing what they intended isn't inherently superior to a reader's imagination brought on by words. Visual images aren't automatically more superior than words either.
I can't imagine you frequent this board if you have such a shallow opinion, is this thread just a haven for /v/?
pic related desu senpai
Video games.
Have they made even one good one yet?
We're talking about a medium where you're considered an elite brain or some kind of beard-stroking sage of higher discernment if you like Deus Ex or Planescape: Torment, games which, if they were books, would not even impress genre-fiction readers.
Gamers pretty much consider Final Fantasy 7 to be video games's Brothers Karamazov, and if they scoff at that pick, it's because they prefer Metal Gear Solid 2.
Video games are very, very, very bad.
>>8219236
It's actually rather the metaphysics of virtual reality within a video game, constituted by game engine, game mechanics and so on, that are artistically interesting.
Or to say it a bit simpler: How Reality is created in vidya
>>8219391
Your fault for confusing video game for a narrative medium, when it is an interactive medium.
>>8212737
I also turned to /lit/ after being burnt out from vidya. I don't fucking play anymore ever since.
>>8219391
It's about gameplay, dude. Maybe they don't have the greatest WRITING, but the right combination of the visuals, audio, story, and most importantly the interactivity come together, it really is something special. Games can present a mood or illicit a response in ways films, books- any non-interactive medium, simply cannot.
999 (for example) let's the "reader" participate in it's deadly, sadistic tests themselves as they (as the protagonist) have to race against time and make the right choices as not to drown on a sinking ship. By giving the player the reigns, it can be incredibly tense, not knowing if they'd made the right choice- who will live or die- and it is able to contain a consistent narrative with the revelation thatmultiple playthroughs are canon, and very important to the storysubsequently making even "wrong turns", usually thought of as pointless in a 'choose your own adventure' narrative, helpful to your overall goal and dismissing any thought that they were somehow wasted time on the part of the player. Not to mention, the reveal thatthere was a very important reason the top screen was dialogue, and the bottom screen was third person narration. Because you weren't actually playing as Junpei the entire game- you were playing as Akane, being sent signals from Junpei. In the last minutes, realizing you'd basically read the entire game having not noticed why half the game was told in third person, and then having to physically flip your DS, now playing as Junpei for the first and only time, to try and save the day- that shit was cash.
And maybe a game like Metal Gear Solid 3 has a pretty fucked up and Japanese-ass script overall. Kojima isn't exactly a condenser in his writing. But you can bet your bottom dollar I REALLY cared about what happened to those characters by the end of it. Probably because I wanted to spend time in that world, it FELT good to be in. To pounce on enemies and plan your next attack. I WANTED to keep playing, and through that, I was able to explore the game at my pace in a way I couldn't in a book or film- I was able to ask questions to characters if I was curious, learning more about not only the item/environment/enemy/etc that I was curious about, but also the character I'd asked. You could say it flip flops on the mood a bit, sure, but it was those moments of pure camp that only served to lower my guard in joy, making me that much more engaged and vulnerable when they decided to stab at my gut emotionally.
It's probably the only medium that can shake off a bad script and still tell a good story.
>>8219500
tl;dr videogame brainlets can't into literature
>>8219508
yep. nailed it, my man.
>>8217138
reeeel
>>8219500
It really should be judged by its GAMEplay first and foremost. Others are just accessories.
>>8217056
>P3
>not SMT
Nothing surpassed the original game yet.
lit loves flitting between "art is judged objectively" and "art is judged subjectively".in this topic art is solely judged by how it conveys Muh Deep Philosophical themes, nvm the fact that a 20 page essay has more in it than 100000 pages of Tolstoy and Dostoevsky etc. So is non fiction the best medium? No, because this judging art by its philosophical themes stuff is stupid (and ironically completely subjective).
Do videogames have creative elements impossible in literature? Yes, obviously. Is the current videogame industry stuck in Hollywood style generic blockbuster mode? Yes, but there were many great games before.
What lit is doing is nothing new. It has happened for hundreds of years. they simply refuse to accept that there can be ny value in a new medium. There is too much pseud potential within literature and they can't give that up.
>>8219564
>nvm the fact that a 20 page essay has more in it than 100000 pages of Tolstoy and Dostoevsky etc.
![1467195228703[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/eEwgEaP.jpg "1467195228703[1].jpg")
Wow this appears to coincide with the arthouse vidya thread on /v/
Coincidence?
>>8219612
>>8219615
Don't be so close-minded anon.
>>8219612
This is actually a pretty good list.
>>8212724
Yes, Undertale is the pinnacle of human expression
>>8219690
Stop trying to impersonate me, I'm not a snob pseudo that can't imagine new media being worthwhile.
>>8214639
Boredom shit.
Zelda OoT (with its simple story) is more deep and fun than that shit
>>8219721
well, it is true. Now go back to /v/ with that unknow game
>>8219709
Go back to /v/ then, faggot.
>>8219730
>how dare you enjoy videogames!
You're being ridiculous, anon.
>>8212724
Not really. The industry is far too commercial due to the development costs required to create a quality game. There can be artistic flair to the commercial product but in the end, all games have to make a profit. Too much rides on their success for them to be nearly as experimental as literature.
In 50-100 years, when AI is advanced enough to replace codemonkeys and development teams will consist only of asset creators (even these might be replaced) and designers I think that video games/virtual worlds will be able to be art.
>>8219391
Imagine if we judged operas by their librettos
One of the biggest misconceptions people have today is that "art" is about nothing more than themes, meaning and narrative. Then they keep going on and on about how games have these really meaningful narratives and therefore art, or they don't have any meaningful narratives and therefore are not art.
I guess that's why art has been dying in the West for the past hundred years.
>>8213637
>A few years ago video games just reached the point of fairly decent plot driven story.
In the 80s there were already games like A Mind Forever Voyaging and Trinity. Nothing new.
>>8220219
And this is another misconception people have: art can't make a profit, art can't be anything that people actually like.
>>8220738
You got his point backwards; it's not that art can't be something people like, it's that things which are made specifically to be liked and not to be good can't be art
>>8213949
the image board industry. I have 300,000(you)s in the bank but it doesnt matter.
>The Last of Us is unanimously the Citizen Kane of videogames
>literature cant even decide on which of its meme books is the least shitty
can books even compete?
>>8220910
Something isn't specifically made to be liked just because it's a commercial work, and even then it doesn't necessarily mean it isn't art.
If someone tells me he likes landscape paintings and commissions a landscape painting from me and I produce something like pic related, is it not art?
>>8212724
I hate to admit it, but this game proved to do that.
>>8219780
Yeah, the stories in the Deus Ex games are really not that great IMO. The original was basically just a mishmash of 90s conspiracy theories. It really lived more on stuff like the Illuminati/NWO stuff than the actual story, which was a Snow Crash ripoff about Bill Gates trying to rule the world.
The sequel was largely just beginner-level "what if the singularity/technology is good/bad?!" woo.
Human Revolution was mainly a "MY GIRLFRIEND IS DEAAAAD!" techno-thriller with some haves/have nots and Alex Jones stuff stapled on. Mankind Divided, who knows, but Mechanical Apartheid is a great catchphrase.
>>8220731
Not to mention that you have people going "I must prove games are art! Look at my indie game with deep meaning!"
It's like, cargo cult art or something.
>>8220992
If HR had been a movie or book people would have praised it, but since it's a game it can't have any merit.
>>8220960
Andrzej Sapkowski:
>I do not play computer games as they are far beyond my sphere of interest, I've never played any computer games, be it fantasy or others. Sometimes I read through dedicated gaming magazines or watch television programmes. Graphics and technology, sometimes, I admire. I cannot say anything about the plots, though. Apart from the fact that some types of games seem to lack any story whatsoever. Those seem to be all about the hack and slash.
>The game - with all due respect to it, but let's finally say it openly - is not an 'alternative version', nor a sequel. The game is a free adaptation containing elements of my work; an adaptation created by different authors,
>The visual effect will be stunning, the players delighted - some might even consider it to be better and easier digestible than the original book, because in the book the letters are so small.... Some will never even reach for the original book; as for them, the game will be enough, But it is the book that's the original, this book is the result of the author's unique, inimitable talent. 'Transfer a book into a virtual world'? Funny. It's impossible.
Of course it's hardly surprising that a 68 year old man doesn't care much for video games.
>>8212724
Why prefer one in detriment of the other? Both mediums have its strong points and in my opinion they are the most satisfying and interesting ones. But again, even that does not mean That i prefer books and games over movies and art, its just another experience
>>8221040
Continuing, Video games are much like a medium that is compassed between an art and a sport - they occupy a place somewhere in the middle of these two. A form of entertaiment that you can do by yourselve and need to have skill to use it is something new. It is much like a one person sport with elements of art
>>8221045
A /lit/ fellow should not banish and execrate a formof art or sport - these hobbies are what drive us to a life of fullfiment, compassion and happiness.
>>8221015
>implying more original = more better
>>8221015
The book is probably mediocre at best
>>8213654
>The Beginners Guide
eye-rolls galore, I mean I relate to a lot of it and I still think it's the most ham-fisted shit.
Yume Nikki is an example of something books and movies can't do. There's no narration, text or cutscenes, there's no specific route through the game or even any indication of where you should go, and the camera shows everything from the same objective perspective.
>>8221092
Still easily the best indie art game.
>>8221092
I was working on a very similar game for a couple years before I found this and though I didn't play it, just watching a few minutes and reading about it completely demotivated me because it looked so great. Haven't touched my shit in months, why live?
>>8220960
See, this is another example of a game where the book parts of the game are fine (the writing) and the game parts are fine (well, except for that open world which is too ubisoft-inspired), but both parts could exist without the other just fine. The Witcher 3 is not an example of a game trancending literature, as it's not even an example of a game transcending the narrative/gameplay split.
>>8221072
what do you think it's about?
>>8219500
Yeah, I'm not reading more than a few sentences of this.
All right, so you went on for two years about game stories being primitive and dumb but their *gameplay* being very sophisticated and interesting...
Fine, but we're talking about aesthetic experience and profundity, which video games do not deliver because they're 99.9 repeating % cynical, megabudgeted, commercial trash aimed squarely at kids, teenagers, and teenagers in adult bodies. Metal Gear Solid, which you devoted a whole paragraph to and wrote things like "I wanted to spend time in that world, it FELT good to be in" (there's a thread about this thread on /v/, isn't there?), is just a bad anime interrupted with gameplay segments where you sneak around and shoot.
By the way, video games give the player the "reins," not the "reigns," I know it's confusing because of the power connotation of "reign," but read more books.
>>8219780
You might want to check out the Choose Your Own Adventure series, it'll blow your hair back.
>>8221269
not other guy that like MGS so much
but there are games like this that take gameplay mechanics to enhance a very specific aesthetic created by the environment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIxXb8jKqmM
this specific experience is not achievable in other mediums
>>8221280
If you don't like games, vidya or otherwise, I don't know what to tell you except that you're probably just as much of a stunted human being as the /v/tards you like to make fun of.
>>8221318
You've been spending too much time on the internet.
>>8221269
>they're 99.9 repeating % cynical, megabudgeted, commercial trash aimed squarely at kids, teenagers, and teenagers in adult bodies
Just like movies and books then.
>>8221318
I play video games, I just put them in their proper place. I don't go to them for wisdom, profundity, aesthetic experience, or even a good story. They're games. Obviously they can be art because the definition of art has for a while now taken into account interactive experiences, but I haven't come across a video game yet that's good as art. Good games, terrible awful embarrassingly bad art.
>>8212724
There are way more gamers than "readers".
If you want to be pedantic, if you play JRPGs or anything with a good storyline is equivalent to reading a souped up Choose-Your-Adventure with a million generated story-lines.
>>8221350
OK, but that *includes* all the games on all the Top Ten lists ever written. Not so for books and movies. There's a cream that transcends the garbage. With video games, what's supposed to be the cream is also garbage.
>>8221367
Art doesn't mean just >muh themes.
>>8221379
That's a good point I guess, but you people act like these top-selling mega games of today represent all video games in all times and places.
Hi. I used to play a lot of video games before I discovered reading. I actually for a long time thought video games was a wondrous medium that just got a bad rap because of shitty stereotypes, and that video games were actually the future in terms of art. Then I started reading actual good books and I realized that video games are really, really bad and gamers are really, really dumb. I actually didn't realize how dumb I was before I started reading literature and posting here on /lit/. For instance, I would make really long posts on /v/ and other gaming forums and be really proud of them, and people would even quote them a lot and say like "Good post" and "Well said," and I would feel smart. I would actually try to write posts with the motivation of earning somebody's saying they were good or well articulated.
Recently I went back and read all those posts and I was embarrassed by how retarded they were. After reading books for a year and not playing any video games besides Hearthstone occasionally, I actually feel like my consciousness has expanded and I can now see video games for what they are. They're pretty much all either interactive animes or interactive Hollywood movies. There are some pretty fun games out there, like Hearthstone and Rocket League, but I no longer associate with "gamer culture" because they actually think Super Metroid is some kind of artistic masterpiece rather than just a cool video game but in the grand scheme of things worthless.
>>8221448
Video games aren't bad just because they aren't as good at being literature as literature is. A story also isn't shit just because it isn't a 10/10 masterpiece that academics will still be discussing centuries later.
And how is this even supposed to support what you're saying:
>They're pretty much all either interactive animes or interactive Hollywood movies.
Something isn't bad because it's anime or because it was made in Hollywood.
>>8219236
nothing like video games, or a viewer-controlled 3d camera at least, gives such a feel for physical depth
movies try and pretend like they're not twodimensional, and sure, you get some feeling of distance in the shot, but you never really feel like there's something _behind_ the screen, behind where you are sitting, which happens all the time in games
i can't even imagine how it's like with a good VR headset
>>8221448
you can never escape being retarded
enjoy being a stunted human being forever
>>8221612
lol @ this butthurt over someone intellectually transcending your stupid hobby
>>8221633
At leat you're not in any danger of intellectually transcending anyone or anything.
>>8221633
>t. born again self-hating cripple who wishes he had a time machine to fix the horrible mistake that was his entire life up to the midway point
>>8221693
I'm more of an adult than you'll ever be.
>>8221269
>Yeah, I'm not reading more than a few sentences of this.
so you don't even care enough about the conversation to even hear the other side. Yeah, you're a real mature and worldly motherfucker who has a good beat on things. We should all listen to you and your opinions since they're so good you apparently don't even care about anyone else's.
Fuck off, idiot.
>>8221269
hahaha jesus
>>8221710
You wish, biatch.
>>8221787
Your behavior is infantile.
>>8221797
Much like your face.
>>8221805
Thanks for proving my point.
>>8221815
Just trying to speak your language, friend.
Videogames are the ultimate art form, second only to Nietzsche fanfiction.
>>8221820
Where have I made posts like that?
>>8221825
Up your mother's butt.
>>8221823
Also, Icycalm is the only one to fully grasp the importance of overreacting to typos.
>>8221836
Again, you are just proving my point.
I don't think even /v/ is this childish.
Videogames are not a good narrative medium, if any of them were a movie they would suck bad, and let's not even compare it to a book.
I feel the only game that tells a worthy story is Bioshock Infinite and thats because it's so confusing it's unique.
But yea videogames are like painting i guess they are pretty to look at and lose yourself in them, but the story is just a sideshow.
>>8221843
Engaging in such a childish pastime as video games absolutely makes you that childish, even more so.
>>8221848
Far Cry 2 and Halo are awful.
>>8221857
>If any of them were a movie they would suck bad.
Any novel as a film would suck bad, are you saying novels are not a good narrative medium?
>Bioshock Infinite
Oh, this is a bait post.Atleast I hope it is, someone on /lit/ acting like they know so much about something, but actually knowing nothing at all?
>>8221861
Video games aren't childish, and you've already proven yourself to be extremely childish so it's not like you're in any position to cast stones at others.
>>8221862
Actually they're two of the top 3 vidoe games of all time, Anonymous.
>>8221823
Videogames to literature are as fondue is to engineering.
>>8221875
Says the guy who plays video games, the most childish thing you can do, LOL.
>>8221885
says the guy who only eats chicken tendies and hot dogs
>>8221269
If you can't appreciate well designed gameplay, or see how it can and does add to the atmosphere and narrative, you really shouldn't be talking. The fact that you took one spelling mistake as reason to try and scold me like a child doesn't help your case either, when your primary complaints with my post were based around it's length and not it's content. How dare I write a few hundred words! That must've been terrible for you to have to wade through. Good thing you avoided that by not even reading it, right?
Next time, if you don't want to have a discussion, just don't reply, okay? Because boiling down an entire games worth into "[it's just] gameplay segments where you sneak around and shoot" does nothing but prove how incapable you are of judging a game by it's merits. I'm glad you like books. I do too- but that doesn't (or shouldn't) give you carte blanche to act like a know-it-all cunt.
>>8221898
this is the worst thread on /lit/
>>8213729
This is why I love Bloodborne, the mechanics reinforce the storied theme, as much of it is retreaded Gothic and Lovecraftian horror
>>8221899
He's probably a pseud that doesn't even read literature.
>>8221903
Only because the only people who are arguing on behalf of vidya are mouthbreathing retards, and I had to come in 200 posts in. I definitely think vidya has some god-tier artistic pieces, but the when 99.9% of gamers don't even know the actual meaning behind the fucking Moon in Majora's Mask, you know they're too immature to argue against people who read literature.
>>8221918
>99.9% of gamers don't even know the actual meaning behind the fucking Moon in Majora's Mask
it's just a moon bro, and it's going to fall down
that's it
>>8221918
>the only people who are arguing on behalf of vidya are mouthbreathing retards
Hey- I thought I made some alright points. Don't blame me because Snooty McMaturePerson decided he didn't even want to read what I'd said.
>>8221179
the open world is nothing like ubisoft games, there is no abundance of collectibles, no monotonous repetitive sidequest crap, and hardly any empty space
ITT: a bunch of retards never played SoTC
>>8221969
seriously, though, that really is it
the moon does not have any deeper significance
any attempt to say otherwise is going to go deep into
WELL THAT'S JUST A THEORY
A GAAAAAAME THEORY
>>8221986
>I'm gonna ignore the entirety of the inside of the moon and what happened in the mountain village/zora hall/ikana valley, and say "just" to devalue your statement.
wew
>>8221948
One of the most overrated games of the millennium. Haven't games progressed past artificial boss fights yet?
>>8222005
How the fuck are the fights artificial. That's literally the game. They aren't even boss fights, because that would imply there are other weaker enemies.
>>8222005
>artificial boss fights
what did he mean by this
>>8222001
you still haven't stated any kind of central point famalam
the moon is just the moon
the inside is a field because why not
the game never explicitly states any super deep or special meaning about the inside of the moon
>>8222005
It's definitely overrated, but how could you miss the point of something so simple? It's the greatest love story ever told through an interactive medium. On it's own, it's worthless/a childs tale, but when discussing the potential of vidya, it has fantastic execution in driving how far the protagonist would go to bring his love back to life. It's phenomenal art/sound/game direction allowed for truly colossal battles for stakes most wouldn't strive for. Not to mention the effects it had on the protagonists soul and the world around him.
>>8222005
>artificial boss fights
You should go to /v/, I hear they have a riveting discussion about "artificial difficulty" going on.
>>8222032
It's so fucking obvious but I'll bite.
The Moon is meant to represent the philosophy that "The Mask is more important than The Self." This is reflected by it's destructive outer nature, while having a peaceful and serene inside--like a crimson king that does what he believes is right. Now, you could argue that this is coincidental, but this theme is subtly thrown around throughout the game. For example, through most of the game, people will talk to you differently depending on which "transformation" mask you wear. The most popular example is how the girl in the treasure shop will give you a discount if you're a Zora, but will make you pay more if you're a Goron. In the Goron Village/Zora Hall, when you complete the temples of those areas, the citizens will attribute all the victory to the people you're masquerading as, even though they are dead. These are just a couple of examples of this theme strewn throughout the game, but I think it's solidified with the inside of the moon, and when you talk to the children playing.
>"The right thing...what is it? I wonder...if you do the right thing...does it make...everybody...happy?
>"Your true face... What kind of... face is it? I wonder... The face under the mask... Is that... your true face?"
etc
If this isn't intentional, then it sure is one hell of a coincidence.
>>8222075
I understand your idea, but I am personally skeptical of it.
God bless anon
Video games are toys for children. Can you manchildren fuck off back to /v/?
>>8222085
Understandable, because there's a lot of evidence that points towards every "idea" or "meaning" behind Majora's Mask was inserted for the sake of atmosphere, and not depth. Though, that's mostly expressed through interviews, which I think an art piece should be able to stand on it's own.
>>8222088
>Video games are toys for children.
I see you have excellent taste in memes, good sir.
>>8222075
I think more accurately its "The mask is more important than the self in a world without god" due to the lack of any divine presence in termina, in contrast to all the other zelda games.
>>8221875
Fondue was created by the Swiss Cheese Union cartel as a conspiracy to increase exports.
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/10/355177578/episode-575-the-fondue-conspiracy
https://readthink.com/the-swiss-cheese-mafia-1dd096425f0d?gi=eda70e34ded5
>>8213740
Your brain gets better at playing games from playing games. How do you think scientist test stuff like reaction times? Essentially they make you play a little video game. It's not like they fucking toss you a ball or make you drop something and try to catch it before it hits the ground or any other sort of real world situation you might encounter. There are no benefits at all to playing video games and many downsides.
the video games that are considered to have the best characters and stories if put into a book would be absolute trash, worse than selfpublished vanity shit from housewives.
if you want to really get into stories of video games you have to literally stop reading for decades, otherwise you'll be disgusted by all the cliches, sentimentality, melodrama, etc etc etc.
>>8212724
>used to game 24/7 after stopping national level tennis en basketball
>tried to LIVE TO WIN
>become decent at most games, sub-pro level
>still too bad and terrible at losing to actually achieve anything
>with my tail tucked behind my tail I decide to improve myself instead of trying to beat others
>discover reading which I so adored when I was young but was never cultivated
>pretend to be better than anyone else
so... little has changed.
Vidya is terrible though because it traps so many young kids into spending countless hours doing very little which benefits them as human beings.
>people unironically defending vidya in this thread
why?
I am starting to believe /lit/ is actually littered with people who don't even read but just post epic stirner memes and other trolls, just like /fit/ is littered with people who barely even lift but still feel the need to share their elite experience and knowledge with the rest of the curlbros.
4chan has become shit
>>8222177
>I don't like video games, therefore there can't be any benefits to playing them
>I'm the center of the universe
>>8222235
>the video games that are considered to have the best characters and stories if put into a book would be absolute trash, worse than selfpublished vanity shit from housewives.
This is absurdly incorrect.
>>8222123
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
>>8222261
>people can only have one hobby
>>8222292
damn, iam retarded, time to go to bed
>>8222292
Toys are not hobbies. Sorry, manchild.
>>8222356
Video games are not toys, manchild.
>>8222261
>People unironically validating the thing you don't like
anon that just means you need to grow up
>>8222364
They are quite literally toys made for children. Any "mature content" and shit like that still makes them toys that are made for children that manchildren (who may as well still be children, honestly) will play with.
>>8222380
what isn't for children?
>>8222385
Opinions that state video games are not toys.
>>8222380
They quite literally aren't, manchild. They aren't toys, and only some of them are made for children.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ddR-UReJLY
>>8222397
Looks like a toy to me, kid.
>>8222393
>Some opinions are for children and some are for adults
that's now how opinions work
>>8222407
If you think flight simulators are made for children you just might be retarded, manchild.
