I want to speak against communism, so I should probably read Marx
Where should I start with him?
don't bother, just read r/theredpill
>>8207623
Read Ludwig Von Mises. Specially 'the anti capitalist mentality'. You can't go wrong with the Austrians.
>>8207623
Serious thought amongst Marxists died with Eric Hobsbawm. Everyone left is a 2deep4u memeing retard and their only argument is luring opponents into floundering within their a priori Hegelian framework. It's like arguing people out of Islam.
>>8207623
Critique of The Gotha Program is probably a better introduction to Marx than the manifesto
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/
"Value, Price and Profit" was a speech given to the First International Working Men's Association in June in 1865 so it should be pretty easy to grasp
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/
If you want to more than superficially understand Marxs concept of communism you really need to understand his full theory of historic development and you would need to read all 3 volumes of Capital to really seriously get that
>>8207655
plz Mises shouldn't be taken seriously, if you want to read the Austrian take on Marx go all the way back to Böhm-Bawerk's "Karl Marx and the Close of His System" and read Rudolf Hilferding's response to it "Böhm-Bawerk's Criticism of Marx"
Also this might interest you:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/kevin-carson-austrian-and-marxist-theories-of-monopoly-capital
>>8207623
>Marx was a communist meme
You realize his Marxist form of communism was about the proletariat rising against the bourgouise right? By his logic Brexit is communist.
Read Das Kapital you illiterate fuck.
just beat up any communists you find they are weak willing and also weak of body
>>8207800
So Marx is a populist?
>>8207829
More or less
>>8207681
I seriously disagree with that image. Have you ever seen the tombs of Pharaohs and Egyptian noblemen?
>>8208530
Having a fancier place to stuff your corpse into doesn't change the fact that you're dead.
Realize that Marx didn't take into account human nature in his ideal utopia
And that he himself was a rich burgeouise who was born into a rich family and didn't really have to work at all
>>8208537
When your tomb is uncovered it YOUR body that is remembered as that of a king. If you are to die why not leave a lasting impression?
>>8208546
>human nature
When will this meme end?
>And that he himself was a rich burgeouise who was born into a rich family and didn't really have to work at all
He was a poor journalist most of his life who had to rely on Engels patronage.
>>8208554
bingo, he was a welfare case
and instead of calling it a "meme" how about u form a response you ad hominen liberal shite?
>>8208550
oh my god i cannot believe you literally just said that you uneducated fascist shite, every person is literally equal no matter if theyre gay, muslim, jewish, a negro, everyone is literally the same and deserves the same amount of money for their work, there should be any social classes because everyone is literally equal and genetics is racist and dindus and honkeys have no difference in their dna because theyre literally equal, go take some womens studies courses or something...
well everyone is equal except for the evil honkeys, theyre patriarchical and racist and homophobic and transphobic and they made their life off the back of their slave negroes 50 years ago in jim crow, i literally hate white people so much, im a communist btw, i wouldnt mind joining isis so i could shoot some honkeys and destroy evil white capitalist america jahu bless and allahu ackbar
>>8208569
>>8208550
>>8208569
>>8208588
what is this from?
>>8207623
just use common sense.it isnt that hard to refute communism, specially after so many failed attempts
>>8208629
/his/ and it's Diogenes.
Read Alexander Solzhenitsyn
>>8207623
>A communist reads Marx, but an Anti-Communist actually understands Marx haha
Yeah, whatever, what is communism about?
>Your house is my house and the unemployed earn as much as those who work
everytiem
>>8208646
>inb4 real communism hasn't been tried yet
>>8208557
Also his daughters died because he didn't get enough money to feet a couple of them.
Fuck that guy on a personal level.
Ideologically, everything except the LTV (which is the support for a lot of his theoretical conclusions) is alright.
The LTV is arse.
>>8208649
Fucking hell I loved the cynics.
Up there in my list of most badass ascetics.
>>8207829
populist doesn't even mean anything
Americans can't talk about communism, bc they've historically been misinformed and brainwashed.
>>8207829
Calling Brexit communist is not the same thing as calling marx a populist
Brexit was a movement catalysed by a kind of revolutionary spirit, but the referendum in reality wasn't supposed to be anything more than smoke and mirrors to obscure/settle the power divisions in the tory cabinet
But now its happened and the MPs are all too sheepish to take control and too scared of others fucking it up to concede defeat
What's with communists and personality cults? Reading the original texts, you'd never think this would result in this, yet all communists I see do this to some degree.
And I'm asking this from a neutral point of view.
>>8207623
Having made up your mind before reading it is not a good first step toward understanding it.
>>8209391
I'm guessing a strong figure is needed in order to combat the insidious capitalism
>>8209391
Blame Stalin.
>>8207623
don't bother, no other critics of communism ever had.
Also its a serious risk if you did as you'd probably end up becoming a communist if you learnt what it actually was.
>>8209391
Because it usually takes one person to spearhead the "cultural revolution" necessary to inject a communist economy into whatever was there before.
>>8207800
It's far more specific than that and a marxist revolution would not be a communist revolution. So Brexit isn't marxist and even if it were, it would not be communist. But beyond that a really great, insightful contribution.
>>8208569
The idea that /pol/ mentality is just insecure young, white men having difficulty adjusting to society in which they feel lost and insignficant and lashing out due to this is best exmplified by this post and its positive responses. Look at how many buzzwords and memes he managed to fit in to a response to something that could only be seen as related if you depserately wanted it to. Its clear that he had a bad day and thought searching for an excuse to go on a racist, sexist tirade would calm his nerves. Fascinating.
This desperate need to constantly re-affirm dominance over others by questioning equality is such an obvious sign of deep insecurity. He feels as though he NEEDS to be better than others but fears that he isn't.
>>8209334
But it hasn't, if you understand communism and history this would be clear to you. If you had asked Stalin if the USSR was 'real communism' he would have told you that it wasn't, that it was socialism. And whether or not it could even be considered socialism has been heavliy disputed. But I'm sure you know better.
>>8209391
pretty much Stalin's fault :c
>>8208546
Marx obviously had a theory of "human nature" dingus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_human_nature
>Exchange, both of human activity within production itself and of human product against one another, is equivalent to species-activity and species-spirit, the real, conscious and true mode of existence of which is social activity and social enjoyment. Since human nature is the true community of men, by manifesting their nature men create, produce, the human community, the social entity, which is no abstract universal power opposed to the single individual, but is the essential nature of each individual, his own activity, his own life, his own spirit, his own wealth. Hence this true community does not come into being through reflection, it appears owing to the need and egoism of individuals, i.e., it is produced directly by their life activity itself. It does not depend on man whether this community exists or not; but as long as man does not recognise himself as man, and therefore has not organised the world in a human way, this community appears in the form of estrangement, because its subject, man, is a being estranged from himself. Men, not as an abstraction, but as real, living, particular individuals, are this entity. Hence, as they are, so is this entity itself. To say that man is estranged from himself, therefore, is the same thing as saying that the society of this estranged man is a caricature of his real community, of his true species-life, that his activity therefore appears to him as a torment, his own creation as an alien power, his wealth as poverty, the essential bond linking him with other men as an unessential bond, and separation from his fellow men, on the other hand, as his true mode of existence, his life as a sacrifice of his life, the realisation of his nature as making his life unreal, his production as the production of his nullity, his power over an object as the power of the object over him, and he himself, the lord of his creation, as the servant of this creation.
>>8209356
>The LTV is arse.
Why? Even if you accept marginal utility and bourgeois economics to explain the variations in commodity prices in the very short run still in the long run production obviously will increase or decrease supply to meet the level of demand for that commodity. Over time price will fluctuate around the price of production. Production costs in a free market are ultimately resolvable into the average amount of socially necessary labour-time.
Careful- if you read Marx you might end up *agreeing* with him- and we can't have people changing their minds can we?
Just stick to /pol/ and you'll be fine- no new information, no chance of being wrong.
>>8209546
by the way i have a question. what is the LTV answer to cases like "singed copy of Das Kapital sells for $3000000"?
i mean i know it's an anomalous case of supply and demand but like, since "total values = total prices", for a commodity to get price($) way above it's value(labour), others would have to devaluate: what commodities devalue so something rises way way up it's value?
>>8209693
VALUE IS NOT PRICE YOU IDIOT.
This abridgement of Capital is probably the best place to start. It is short enough to be approachable but also has all of Marx's key ideas about capitalist economics. It's a tough read, but trod through it and evaluate it fairly.
Next you should read the Communist Manifesto, which will probably take you an hour.
Then read the Road to Serfdom by FA Hayek. Hayek tears into many fallacies that Marx's theories are based on, the historical consequences of Marxism, the philosophical issues with collectivist politics, etc. Awesome book.
>>8209719
??????
my post is exactly about when price rises above value
(illustative video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqOtQM8PCvA)
>>8207698
>"Value, Price and Profit" was a speech given to the First International Working Men's Association in June in 1865 so it should be pretty easy to grasp
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/
This.
>>8209719
>VALUE IS NOT PRICE YOU IDIOT.
Retard, Marx first came up with value as labor when explaining what two things, equal in so far as they are exchange values, have in common.
>>8209794
Marx's way had to do with proportion of capital to industrial capital and the total surplus being divided among capitalists according to that.
Google the transformation problem.
Btw, heads up, the only people that take the LTV seriously now are more or less armchair economists and you can be damn sure they aren't attending any good colleges/working in them.
Most modern Marxists have either avoided, reformed or rejected the LTV.
>>8208557
>liberal
Socialists aren't liberals.
>>8209816
>Most modern Marxists have either avoided, reformed or rejected the LTV.
Without LTV we still have the concept of "surplus value"?
>>8207800
brexit was about the british rejecting the european bourgeoisie in favor of their own local bourgeoisie
absolutely nothing marxist about that
>>8209842
and they still have a queen. top kek
>>8209391
Communists don't have a cult of personality problem. We get to admire our leaders, revolutionary heroes, and great philosophers like everyone else. We don't worship anyone or make up stories about them like capitalists do with Lincoln, Washington, Roosevelt, etc.
>>8209816
finally i'm going somewhere...
the thing with this tansformation problem is that even though the ratios of dead and living labour are different among different commodities, they all tend to average in the end of the day(?)
isn't this the start of his crisis theory? commodities have different ratios of labour(S) and capital(c) imputs, for a momentanueous advantage in competition to lower the socially required labour time, capitalists an encouraged to invest in (c) rather than (S), thus the rate of profit (S/(c+V)) decreases, right?
anyway, could you please tell these reforms to the LTV by modern marxists? any books or something?
>>8209391
Communist revolutions took place in countries where the vast majority of the population consisted of illiterate peasants who could only be mobilized through a cult of personality.
>>8209543
>>8209466
Stalin did nothing wrong. The mentality of early 20th century Russians was very centered on finding a leader to admire. They were too accustomed to honoring the Czar, even after the Czar was gone. The culture was still heavily semi-feudal and the peasantry simply wasn't as intellectually prepared for the kind of heavy theoretical material of Lenin and Stalin. Stalin condemned much of this so-called cult of personality. He was a great leader, on par with Washington, Lincoln, FDR, and JFK, for the US. The over-enthusiasm of his supporters is largely because they were poor early 20th century Russians that were used to authoritarianism and dogmatism.
>>8207623
>I want to speak against communism
>never read Marx
>don't even know what communism is
I prefer Lenin
>>8209845
It's not a monarchy, the Royals don't do anything except provide faces to put on postage stamps and coins
>>8207623
you're fucked, it will take you a lifetime, just to prove him wrong. just read the spark notes on communism.
it'll take a few years just to get through hegel and marx, and then any critique you think up will be addressed by the neo-marxists, then every critique you think of that will be addressed by the postmarxists.
by then you'll have read about 500 books.
why not just say 'im not an expert on communism' and go have some fun with your comrades in the park?
>>8209918
they are symbols, symbos of how big cucks are the brits.
>>8209921
I wish the word cuck would be banned, it's so overused and fucking annoying as shit
>>8209693
The LTV wouldn't be concerned with such anomalies because supply and demand isn't as important in the long run as costs of production when analysing capitalist production as a totality. This is why microeconomics can't provide a proper foundations for understanding capitalism for obvious reasons.
Exchange doesn't create new value it can only changes the distribution of value. Devaluation during a crisis rearranges the entire capital structure
>Thus, in a crisis – a general depreciation of prices – there occurs up to a certain moment a general devaluation or destruction of capital. The devaluation, like the depreciation, can be absolute and not merely relative, because value expresses not merely a relation between one commodity and another, as does price, but rather the relation between the price of the commodity and the labour objectified in it, or between one amount of objectified labour of the same quality and another. If these amounts are not equal, then devaluation takes place, which is not outweighed by appreciation on the other side, for the other side expresses a fixed amount of objectified labour which remains unchanged by exchange. In general crises, this devaluation extends even to living labour capacity itself. In consequence of what has been indicated above, the destruction of value and capital which takes place in a crisis coincides with – or means the same thing as – a general growth of the productive forces, which, however, takes place not by means of a real increase of the productive force of labour (the extent to which this happens in consequence of crises is beside the point here), but by means of a decrease of the existing value of raw materials, machines, labour capacity. For example. The cotton manufacturer loses capital on his products (e.g. twist), but he buys the same value of cotton, labour etc. at a lower price. It is the same for him as if the real value of labour, of cotton etc., had decreased, i.e. as if they had been produced more cheaply owing to an increase in the productive force of labour. In the same way, on the other hand, a sudden general increase in the forces of production would relatively devalue all the present values which labour objectifies at the lower stage of the productive forces, and hence would destroy present capital as well as present labouring capacity. The other side of the crisis resolves itself into a real decrease in production, in living labour – in order to restore the correct relation between necessary and surplus labour, on which, in the last analysis, everything rests.
From the Grundrisse
>>8209858
Except you do.
North Koreans attribute miraculous powers to the Kims.
inb4 the "n-n-not really communism" retort.
>>8209927
retard and faggot are fine though
>>8209511
You are correct about the communist aspect however the USSR was a socialist economy.
>>8209879
The two-fold character of labour (it's utility to produce value and its market cost) causes the general contradiction of capitalism but a crisis of overproduction brings out the contradiction between loan-capital (money existing outside the production process) and industrial capital (directly involved in the production process). Capital requires circulation without actual circulation time, factious capital is necessary to fill the gap but speculation always enhance crisis situations by allowing the fictitious over-evaluation of capital, which then cannot satisfy the profit claims which are bound up with it. Book depreciation eventually becomes greater than reported profits. The depreciation costs turns debt-capital into demand for money which result in an inflate in costs to cover the losses from all the fixed-capital which was financed via debt.
Crises and devaluation of fixed-capital enforced by competition however actually delays the implosion of capitalism because it causes a rise in the rate of profit for new firms when old firms have to "write off" their past investments. This deprecation actually rises the rate of profit! Unrecognized deprecation costs however accumulate as potential illiquidity. General devaluations however haven't occurred since before WWI and state monopoly capital will bail out banks and foreclose on people to maintain the value of dead labour at the expense of living labour to save the fictitious paper economy from collapsing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmi8cJG0BJo
>>8209888
>Stalin did nothing wrong
What is holodomor?
What is Gulag?
What is the Great Purge?
What is Moscow Trials?
Killing the Red Army?
What is Dekulakization?
What is Great Famine?
Killing Orthodox Christians?
>>8210052
>bases theory upon fallacy
>"don't say my theory is based on a fallacy!"
>>8208557
Living on the bottom of the sea using your bioluminescense to attract prey is not human nature. Things that humans do all the time such as sharing and volunteering are absolutely in human nature.
>>8210225
>What is holodomor?
famine caused by butthurt kulaks (landowners) who burnt crops in response to socialist collectivization policies, nothing to do with Stalin
>what is Great Famine
synonym for Holodomor
>what is Dekulakization
Solution for Holodomor
>What is Gulag
Prison system
>>8210225
>What is the gulag?
Some kind of siberian guantanamo?
>>8209511
Yeah no real communism has been tried because there was no dictatorship of the proliteriate because Marx's predictions were wrong because he did not account for structural growth.
>it has never been tried
I don't think you people know what "trying" is.
>>8210241
The Great Famine and Holodomor were two different things.
The Great Famine was the result of a shitty and poorly thought out crop plan.
Holodomor on the other hand was an act designed to take out a Ukrainian region that loudly expressed anti socialist ideals and was largely Nationalistic.
>>8210250
No. They were actually terrible. More like alcatraz with forced labor, if you escaped you'd be in another prison called fucking Siberia so good luck lol
>>8207623
>I want to speak against Communism
>But I don't know what it is
How about you read Marx to read Marx, rather than setting yourself up to debate him?
>>8207623
>Read Marx
>Realize that his critic of capitalism is accurate
>However, his solutions are terrible
That's how you dit.
>>8211012
Is this where you lurch into Third-Wayism?
inb4 op reads marx and becomes a communist himself
then why do you care about debating communism, since the few ones who support it haven't read marx
You want to critique something and you've never even read it's foundational work?
If you have to ask such a question you definitely shouldn't be setting out to critique at this point. Read Marx, then decide if you can even see something worth critiquing.
>>8208530
"I am searching for the bones of your father but cannot distinguish them from those of a slave."
>>8209653
if marx was so right how come he and his sugar daddy couldn't even critique stirner?
>>8209858
>We get to admire our leaders, revolutionary heroes, and great philosophers
Admire them for what, murdering everyone who doesn't like them? Marx couldn't even run a family, and his philosophy has lead to some of the shittiest living conditions known to man, every time. Give up on this tired old meme.
>>8211055
Because Stirner is unassailable in the same way teen nihilism is.
>>8211055
You don't have to agree with everything Marx wrote.
>>8211065
Except that he builds his conclusion around the only spook he failed to bust.
>ctrl + f: Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844
>0 results
baka!
>>8209391
All revolutions in history are followed by some sort of personality cult, it's just that communist revolutions bring the idea of a continuous struggle after the revolution therefore the cult must continue everyday as if the revolution has happened yesterday.
See how latinos have their revolutionaries of independence in such high esteem, of course it does not equate with the worship that takes place in North Korea but that's because the struggle of Latin American independentists is over, the Juche struggle isn't.
>>8210241
>soviet apologetics
>lazy, inaccurate post
>implying a 5 year old would be satisfied with describing the Gulags as "a prison system"
>managed to sanitize the Holodomor
>lost steam and couldn't justify each historical event the post he was quoting brought up
W H Y
A R E
C O M M U N I S T S
F U C K I N G
R E T A R D E D?
>>8207623
Are you perchance a member of the bourgeoisie?
>>8211012
90% of his writings are on capitalism, there are no 'solutions'
(the manifesto isn't meant to be taken seriously)
I wouldn't bother, simply point to any attempt to implement a 'communist' system, whether it's cambodia, china(before xiaoping), soviet union, cuba, venezuela, take your pick
if you;re interested in economics then just read a textbook and maybe critiques of marx's ltv if you really have to have a rebuttal against him (sraffi, joan robinson)
if you care about sociology then marx may actually have some insight here, on alienation, class interests
>>8209502
Yes, true.
I really wish 4chan has an algorithm where any user who used /pol/ more than 50% of the time would just get locked into the board for a month or something.
This could also backfire, but at least it would be contained.
>>8209546
Sadly no one who actually criticizes Marx or Marxism will read this or even understand what is meant, because that takes dedicated concentration, time, and a real desire to understand complex things.
Marx was right, but what happens here is the /pol/tards come in and give the appearance that the young are either ignorant or anti-marxists, when in actual fact statistics show a growing interest in him and his ideas. But this place gives one a very unbalanced view of how our generation thinks.
That's how /pol/tards get members, misinformation.
>>8210109
How am I wrong, all I said was it has been disputed, it has been disputed.
>>8210241
get real you tankie cunt, morons like you give socialism a bad name.
>>8207623
>I want to speak against communism
>2016
What a brave position
"I want to oppose an ideology I know nothing about. What do I need to read so I can quote from it without context and tear it apart based on my preconceived biases to seem like I've actually come to my decision through intellectual rigor?"
Fix'd that for you OP, you were a little vague to begin with
>>8209391
It's just a human thing I guess. No matter what political ideology, people always look up to leaders.
>>8207623
like, seriously? what other things you want to speak against? Roman imperialism? Feudalism? Temporal power of pope? Carthagine?
Are you by chance retardedd?
i heard popper bfto marx
>>8211097
>around the only spook he failed to bust
?
>>8209391
Marxism as ideology was geared towards skilled workforce in the most advanced capitalists countries. It expressly said that revolution may start and win only in such a coutry. However, bolschevik party won in peasant, almost feudal Russia with huge illiteracy. Civil War and foreign intervention followed. There was no time for deliberation, education and so on. there was a total mobilization to defend themseves (and to export Revolution, because, according to theory, Communism cannot exist in one state, it must be worldwide). And then Stalin came and ruined everything.
Just a question, but is there a chart for Russian literature? Been interested lately with it.
>>8213537
kek
If you want a guide to Marxism-Leninism I strongly recommend getting the Marx-Engels Reader and the Lenin Anthology by Robert C. Tucker. both contain more or less all you need to understand both.
I recommend reading: Value, Price, & Profit and Wage, Labour, & Capital for understanding basic Marxist economics, and later Grundrisse, Contribution To The Critique of Political Economy, and Das Kapital if you're feeling ballsy/motivated enough. For philosophy by Marx you should also read The German Ideology, and Theses On Feuerbach.
If you want to understand dialectics, read Anti-Dühring and Dialectics on Nature by Engels, as well as Historical Materialism and Dialectical Materialism by Stalin. The Principles of Communism by Engels is also excellent and much better at outlining Marxist beliefs than the manifesto.
In terms of Lenin's works, read in any order so long as you don't start with What Is To Be Done?: Burning Questions of Our Movement. I recommend starting with The State and Revolution and The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism. So, Lenin's works you should read for political theory: The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism, The State and Revolution, Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism, What Is To Be Done?: Burning Questions of Our Movement, The Development of Capitalism in Russia, and "Left-wing" Communism: An Infantile Disorder. For more philosophical works: Materialism and Empirio-Criticism, and Philosophical Notebooks.
All of these can be found on marxists.org, and for a none-Leninist Marxist I strongly recommend Luxemburg's Reform or Revolution. However, it should be noted that there are many Marxists who disagree with Lenin outright, and view him as authoritarian, elitist, and sectarian - especially in What Is To Be Done? where he justifies his view for a vanguard party consisting of 'professional revolutionaries' to seize state apparatus and lead the dictatorship of the proletariat.
>>8212926
It's sad, really. The guys "who were born in Communism" have been so indoctrinated by the rising capitalists that they can't bring themselves to read the actual literature. Or any history books, for that matter.
>>8210225
Great book.
I dont understand the whole "apply revisionism to all human tragedy except those caused by niggers" philosophy either.
>>8207655
>You can't go wrong with the Austrians.
ITT
>>8213557
Ego
>>8213599
One of the few informed takes on Marxism.
Thank you anon, for not being simple minded.
>>8213744
You actually think these morons are going to read those texts? You are very optimistic.
>>8214032
If at least one person reads one of those - that's a better informed person, which is why I posted in the first place. Doesn't really matter to me 2bhfam.
>>8213806 Typical western marxist cunts, you're all a bunch of condescending brats who think the great communist experiment would go differently for you (it won't) or you make the same backwards argument as muslims in regards to the islamic state. Don't disown the products of your ideology. The people back home are as aware of the academic side of things as you claim to be. It's all shit.
>>8209391
The people who were most likely to obtain power in a revolution were the people who wanted to be in power the most; complete assholes. So it didn't have anything to do with Marx since any Communist idealism from Stalin or Mao was just propaganda.
>>8209502
I'd just like to intervene on a tangential note here.
There is a largely truthful point on the buzzwords of what is called the alt-right, but the vast majority of political interested people lack the concentration, time and ability to fully understand or operate political ideologues which they follow. But the insecurity of this poster is the wrong way to argue it because you assume going for the direct insult on his perceived weakness.
But politics exists to create security as part of its function. Successful political actors adopt political philosophy to solve contextual issues of the era. Marxism is dead because it can not solve our present socio-political issues. Politics must bend to social context or radical nobles will birth new political context.
So go kill yourself.
>>8207623
>so I should probably read Marx
So people left with some common sense still exist.
Who am I kidding, even if you did read him you'd just distort everything and pick out only what confirms your preconceptions.
>>8215639
>the dictatorship of the proletariat means that communism is basically fascism and can mever work!!!1!
>>8213744
>Historical Materialism and Dialectical Materialism by Stalin
Why recommend this? It's all just lifted from Lenin's Materialism and Empiro-Criticism.
>>8215195
>Marxism is dead because it can not solve our present socio-political issues.
you don't know what marxism is
>>8216385
He's actually right, though. A lot of Marx's predictions have since been proved to be flat out wrong, most notably his prediction that artisans would become proletarians. Now with the growing irrelevance of the industrial working class it seems even more of his predictions will become irrelevant.
>>8216418
>the growing irrelevance of the industrial working class
It just moved.
>>8216346
Materialism and Empirio-Criticism is very long, but Stalin's is not. Stalin's work is also more focused on the theory itself, as opposed to refuting people who oppose the theory, like Berkeley and Mach in Materialism and Empirio-Criticism.
>>8216418
Most marxist theorists don't deny this. That doesn't invalidate how much of Marxs analysis was and is true and how useful it is as a tool for examination of society.
I encourage people who wish to see an adapted theory of Marxism to read Critical Theory
>>8217062
>That doesn't invalidate how much of Marxs analysis was and is true
Very little on both counts.
>>8217080
Wrong
>>8211061
>Marx wasn't a huge influence for social democrats
every time
>>8216418
Like over 90% of the population of America was farmers in the 19th century, now less than 1% are. The process of proletarianization definitely happened in all countries. The labour of "artisans" are today completely controlled by capital as a totality and subject to the whims of the business cycle.
>>8217084
Right.
>>8217091
No, wrong.
>>8214026
How does the Kronstadt rebellion fit in to this "informed" narrative?
>>8207623
Where do you live?
>>8217105
Brasil
>>8209817
They may
>>8207623
you can't fucking read someone with the intent of arguing against them what the fuck is wrong with you, you are a dumbass
>>8207681
>nihilism
fallen for "le spook" meme, have we?
>>8209391
Plebians always require an idol, since no ideal exists within themselves they need external figures to strive towards; or even worse; to follow. Communists are usually a prime example of this: they are lower class people who follow their revolutionary leader to power. Because they themselves cannot rise in a class system due to them being at the very bottom by default.
>>8217101
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/07/the-lies-we-tell-about-lenin/
>>8208554
Marx married a rich noblewoman and basically lived as a house husband.
>>8210237
>Things that humans do all the time such as sharing and volunteering are absolutely in human nature.
Most of the time, people don't share nor volunteer. Have you been living under a rock since you were born.
>>8218772
>Indian province populated mostly with poor farmers and factory workers practices "communism"
>Communism works guise, I promise!
>>8208557
>He was le rich bourg
No he wasn't
>Oh hehe, he was le welfare queen
He recieved funding from fellow revolutionaries so he could keep educating, agitating and organizing.
>>8218815
>practicing "communism"
'The popular slogan for the radical socialists was "the land for tillers", which sent shockwaves through the landlord classes in the country. The ordinance set an absolute ceiling on the amount of land a family could own. The tenants and hut dwellers received a claim in the excess land, on which they had worked for centuries under the feudal system. In addition, the law ensured fixity of tenure and protection from eviction. These ground-breaking measures caused the premature death of the state government, as the central government, under Jawaharlal Nehru, used article 356 to dismiss it, alleging the breakdown of law and order. The land reforms in Kerala imparted drastic changes to the political, economic and social outlook'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_Kerala
>Indian province populated mostly with poor farmers and factory workers
lmao
>>8218852
>Communism
>Selling their products mainly in the Western market
http://seedfreedom.info/how-organic-farming-and-right-prices-are-helping-kerala-farmers/
>>8207623
If you want to rustle a marxist's jimmies just point out that he was a bigot.
Marx called his adversary Lassalle a Jewish nigger, hated France and thought Germany should annex the Netherlands.
>>8207655
Yes you very much can.
>>8218772
Lmao
Private property still existed in Kerala.
The communist party weren't allowed to do the batshit insane stuff so settled for education which is good.
>>8215195
>Marxism is dead
As a particular ideology Marxism might not haunt the world any longer, but the base desires which it militates (e.g. envy) remain as deeply wired into the human psyche as ever, waiting to be tapped by some successor ideology.
Marxism plays a similar role for conservatives as racism does for liberals: a convenient Schelling point to use as a cudgel. Intellectually, Marxism is better off ignored. It's completely bankrupt and utterly vacuous. Essentially the one point Marx got correct is that class forms a driving force in history, but like any sophomoronic SJW would he attempted to use it to explain everything. His "economics" a shit (lol muh labor theory of value, he was totally BTFO'd by Bohm-Bawerk with the subjective theory of value), and he doesn't deserve for class-based historical analyses to be called "Marxian" (see "Marxist and Austrian Class Analysis by Hans-Hermann Hoppe; I'm not saying Austrians are correct about everything, but Hoppe is correct here, and demonstrates that class-based analysis does not need to follow any Marxist presuppositions).
TLDR You don't need to read Marx in-depth. You can understand his historico-political role through those who used his ideas (e.g. Lenin, Mao). Anyone who takes him seriously as an intellectual should be disregarded.
>>8207623
https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1903/economic/index.htm
>>8218730
Most of the time people don't trade either.
>>8219419
>but the base desires which it militates (e.g. envy)
Mein gott this is pure.
>>8219600
> personality cult problem
As sports fans, as music entusiasts, as all those people worshiping Steve Jobs, as religious people and so on and so on.
>>8219419
Marxoteens will conveniently ignore this post
>want to speak against something
>knows nothing about it except what he's told and that it's bad
Why are people so stupid?
>>8209502
Keep this ideology out of Europe if you want to castrate white identity. You sound painfully American/Canadian.
>>8208569
Lol, this is so retarded
>>8207623
Start with the Greek Communists
>>8212975
He wasn't right senpai. He was a fool and you're a fool for following him. People will try to achieve his fantasy once more, and they'll fail once more.
>>8207623
the furnace. Its not even worth reading. Its pseudo economics combined with hyperbole and colorful adjectives. Its just jewish pablum
>>8219419
>but the base desires which it militates (e.g. envy)
how the fuck is marxism is based on envy? marxists do not "envy the bourgeoisie", marx doens't give a fuck about individuals, (learn bout the subject/object inversion) they blame the very mode of production that allows people like that to exist.
>Essentially the one point Marx got correct is that class forms a driving force in history, but like any sophomoronic SJW would he attempted to use it to explain everything.
it explains a lot of things since the dawn of history actually. class struggle is more ever-present on history than the dominant-ideology bullshit of "MUH CAPITALISM ALWAYS EXISTED ITS JUST ABOUT FREE EXCHANGE"
> His "economics" a shit (lol muh labor theory of value, he was totally BTFO'd by Bohm-Bawerk with the subjective theory of value)
it wasn't really much of a BTFO at all, we could spend the whole night debating marginal utility/labour (BTW there are marxists that reject the LTV and the whole analysis still holds)
(i don't know anything about austrian analysis of class so i'll take your word)
PS: i'm new to marxism and i don't even agree with many of his points (especially on The German Ideology) but your (pseudo-)critique is too loaded with ad hominem and generally spooked
PS2: PHISICALLY REMOVE LMAOO XD
>>8223384
>ur stuped! lmao XD
>better dead than red
let me predict your next post: the gif of the japanese tankie getting impaled by the facist faggy
>>8223535
Speaking of Japan they're a perfect example of the alienation capitalism causes.
So you want to speak against something without even knowing what it is? Your reading should be moved by the desire to know, not by the desire to speak against.
>>8211055
I didn't say he was right.
I'm a Stirnerite, and therefore a communist.
>inb4 Stirner wasn't a communist
Go tell his followers and friends that. They all knew him and thought he thought of HIMSELF as one. Case in point: Karl Schmidt.
>>8213537
this
any communist/orthodox marxist nowadays is a glorified historical reenactor
neo-marxists are just severely self-deluded
>>8223546
You mean Japanese culture?
>>8216385
no. he isnt.
the "marxism makes a valid criticism of capitalism" is flat out wrong.
There are some valuable concepts applicable to sociology maybe, but its economic analysis is flat out wrong and completely outdated. In fact, it was partially outdated by the time Marx wrote Capital, considering he pretty much recicled plenty of Ricardo's concepts into his own theory.
There is plenty to criticize the current capitalist system, but basing it on an analysis that pressuposes that a capitalist economy works as a linear, static system that tends towards an equilibrium is flat out wrong and incompatible with reality.
Plus, there's the problem with the Labour Theory of Value, a fundamental pillar of Marx economic analysis that is flat out wrong. Period. It has been proven wrong more than a century ago by now.
Read the black book of communis 800 pages of pure fire.
>>8213599
>illiterate peasants are unhappy with the current state of affairs
>the intellectual class spearhead a revolution
>intellectual class assumes absolute power, because their utopian dream cant work with illiterate peasants
>civil war and foreign interention
>total mobilization for war, chaos, terror
>a strongman emerges
hmmmm, this reminds me of something...
>>8223485
>how the fuck is marxism is based on envy? marxists do not "envy the bourgeoisie"
Have you even ever set your eyes for a mere second on the Communist Manifesto?
>>8226649
you don't know what Marxism is either, lol
obligatory reading for literally anyone here, marxboo or not
>>8226678
nice rebuttal.
>>8226671
that book isn't meant to be taken seriously IMO, there is no real philosophic analysis, beautiful prose though.
anyway, late marx knows its not the fault of the "ebil capitalists >:( !!" they're as much puppets of capital as are workers, as i said
>>8226683
im not interested in "rebutting" someone who believes Marxism is an "economic theory"
>>8209363
It means a politician who appeals to the normies. Usually when I've seen it thrown around it's usually in regards to demagogues duping the average retard with manipulative rhetoric.
>>8209858
I'm assuming you mean "adherents to my perfect yet untested brand of communism" and not communists who have clearly done this in a majority of communist countries.
>>8226678
Amado?
>>8211065
Yessss
>>8223485
>how the fuck is marxism is based on envy?
It isn't *based* on envy, but as an ideological instrument it militates envy in the demos, among other feelings.
>it explains a lot of things since the dawn of history actually
Yes, that's essentially what I said.
>"MUH CAPITALISM ALWAYS EXISTED ITS JUST ABOUT FREE EXCHANGE"
I invite you to reread what I wrote. Did I say this? Did I even imply it? No. Historical anthropology can point you in the right direction on this matter. Key terms: gift economy.
wew lad
>>8227068
Did he? I'd be interested in reading that, can you point me in the right direction?
>>8227354
funny because i read an article yesterday that talks precisely about that
http://www.marxisthumanistinitiative.org/philosophy-organization/the-eternal-sunshine-of-the-vanguardist-mind-how-socialist-alternative-substitutes-opportunism-for-theory.html
[...]"Voluntarism is the belief in the power of free will and human action to transcend material conditions. It leads to analyses of society which privilege human actions and interests over the economic structure of society, so that, for example, the inequality inherent in capitalist society is explained by the capitalist class’s control of political and economic institutions rather than by the fact that capitalism is a mode of production based on the extraction of surplus-value from wage-laborers. Voluntarism suggests that the politicians who run the capitalist state act in the interests of capital because they ideologically identify with the capitalist class and because they are bought and controlled by factions of the capitalist class. This in turn suggests that a socialist party that was able to break free of the influence of “big money in politics” would act in the interests of the working class if it were to take control of the state." [...]
"Marx, however, has a completely different conception of state, economic and political institutions. These aspects of the superstructure derive their core features, not from the subjectivities of the people at their head, but from the economic structure of the capitalist mode of production. This mode of production sets the goals, parameters, rewards, and punishments that determine the range of choices that people encounter when they find themselves “in control” of these institutions. From the perspective of capital, these people are embodiments of economic categories. Should they cease to do a good job in this capacity, they will be replaced with others who better embody the logic of capital."
we're the "personification of economic categories", the bourgeois has no control over his own shit! he has to act by a predetermined set of rules (i.e. the law of value) in order to be sucessful, or else he'll be out of business and be raplaced by someone who obeys the law of value...
our free will won't transcend material conditions (that's why he's called a "materialist" ;))
PS: i made almost this exact post on the free will thread yesterday lmbo
>>8208546
literally retarded
>>8213744
>If you want a guide to Marxism-Leninism
Don't, you literally have to go through a entire lens of not getting Marx or Lenin to take that shit seriously.
>dialectical materialism
Garbage.
>>8209879
>anyway, could you please tell these reforms to the LTV by modern marxists? any books or something?
The LTV never needed reforming. Read Kliman's Reclaiming Marx's Capital and Moseley's Money and Totality. You might then read responses/debates on the Temporal Single-System Interpretation, including Kliman vs. Moseley.
>>8209919
This is the only correct response ITT.
>>8219419
You should read what Marx wrote about envy. You won't, but you should.
>>8226651
I hear that the Black Book of Capitalism is a much better, albeit longer, read. ;)
>>8207829
Marx was the first in a tradition of trustfund wasters with "BIG" ideas
>>8208554
>gravity
When will this meme end?
>Enthalpy
When will this meme end?
>no free will
When will this meme end?
No Patrick, facts are not memes
read about him first, his biography and what he did and who he was
then you can proceed with the comunist manifesto which is easy to read, and then move on to Kapital
the less you know the basics of philosophy of law the harder it will be to understand
so he's not the first one you should be reading
and also if it wasnt for communism, we would still have 15 hour workdays in Europe to this day, so it isnt that bad
>>8228137
Except sociological research has proved that greed is "human nature."
>inb4 LE SOCIAL SCIENCES ARENT LE REALSIES STEM STEM STEM XD
>>8227993
>mfw leftcoms actually exist
>>8229419
Makes perfect sense for people not to want to be robbed on their surplus labor then. :^)
>>8207623
>deciding to speak against something before knowing what it is
>>8229436
Fucking this.
>>8229919
must be american
>>8227095
oh I'm sorry, Marxism is socioeconomic analysis
are you happy now? or will you keep ignoring everything I said based on specious slights of hand?
>>8217947
>What is critical thinking
